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Poll

What kind of project do you want to see as the next CP?

Tandem "GM Universal Zelda Engine" development and a game that uses it.
- 9 (23.1%)
Some form of an online zelda game.
- 4 (10.3%)
Ressurection of OOT2D or a similar 2D conversion.
- 6 (15.4%)
Recreation of a previous game? LTTP? OOS? OOA?
- 7 (17.9%)
Development of a zelda project / engine in an "advanced" language (C#, C++, etc) for teaching.
- 4 (10.3%)
Generic zelda game with a unique storyline.
- 9 (23.1%)

Total Members Voted: 35

Voting closed: March 18, 2009, 09:35:37 pm


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Author Topic: Community Project Redesign  (Read 20073 times)

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Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Community Project Redesign
« on: March 10, 2009, 01:52:42 am »
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This topic is separate from the "What Changes Do You Want" topic for a few reasons. One, this is the community project board. So a redesign discussion belongs here. Two, the topic in announcements is meant for the whole site. I felt too much discussion about the community project in that topic would distract members from the point: what chages do you want to the SITE.

Now, if you'd like to debate my reasoning for a separate topic, fine. PM me or 4Sword. But your arguments are basically useless since this topic is actually on-topic and nothing hazardous.

On to the discussion. Here are the main points 4Sword has proposed:

-Two part system, one being the engine and the other being the game
-Open source projects
-Use of Game Maker as a development tool
-Contests committed to the community project
-Resource database that is organized and easy to sift through

Here are my main points:

-No multiple systems at once. Only one engine and one game should be worked on at a time for maximum effort. (Discussable since engines don't take a lot of work and many can be helping with them)
-Keep it simple. Nothing outlandish and ridiculous.
-Staff system to regulate opinion and keep it fair

Topic's open for discussion. Let's see some brainy ideas from you peeps who want this thing so bad!
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"You should challenge your fates. When all else fails, you can still die fighting." ~Yune
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Zelda GBC+ Engine for Multimedia Fusion 2
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Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 02:13:03 am »
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hmm It will not work, last time it didn't worked no matter what the staff did, We started the city, and it never got completely accepted, we started the NPCs but the ideas were lacking same of spriters, the story had just too many things that should have been decided at first.

hmm IMO, knowing you Jeod, and you have already suggested, we should do LA Remastered or OoA or OoS remastered, but I see that as your personal project, maybe we should do something easier, just to start with, but again people will start lossing motivation to continue working.

EDIT: hmm well last time the lack of motivation from forum people to work in the project was due to the fact that the staff didn't supported it, I gave the idea of making contest but they were never maked, I also remember talking with 4Swords about putting in the project of the week long ago, but he wanted it to be posted in Work In Progress, but.. we had nothing to show except a walking demo.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 02:15:01 am by Kren »
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Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 02:22:34 am »
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That is a very interesting comment Kren. I thought something of the same, but unfortunately as you said, it'll probably fail anywayz. I started a topic for a OOT2D some time ago where I tried to get people's help and input and it didn't do so well. XD I though if anything for a remaster, OOT2D would be THEE game. Considering this site's history, but I imagine people just get a sick feeling in the pit of their stomachs just thinking about that game around here.
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  • Pyxosoft
Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 02:24:54 am »
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That is a very interesting comment Kren. I thought something of the same, but unfortunately as you said, it'll probably fail anywayz. I started a topic for a OOT2D some time ago where I tried to get people's help and input and it didn't do so well. XD I though if anything for a remaster, OOT2D would be THEE game. Considering this site's history, but I imagine people just get a sick feeling in the pit of their stomachs just thinking about that game around here.
hmm I must agree with that OOT2d is the game since, we have half of the sprites from the game (common I have seen three skutullas, three deku nuts, etc..) but yeah people seems to have moved away from zelda games now a day.
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Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 02:25:24 am »
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I have created a mediafire account to store my resources.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=94fe5d9a55b3d085e7ba8e3c6e11ce208de5a6e57f4893c4c95965eaa7bc68bc

Kren, the trouble with making one of my projects a community project is that I code in Multimedia Fusion 2 while most everyone else uses Game Maker. Sure it would be useful for resource gathering, but in the end nobody can really contribute to the source code, let alone use it.

I do suggest a remastering of a gameboy color game, or LttP in MC or GBC style. It's easy to do if everyone contributes, so there's motivation. The "King of Thieves" project had a LOT of creativity that, IMO, killed the project because it would be hard to implement all of that.

Another big reason for the failure, though, is the fact that many of the contributors wanted this huge story and didn't want to leave much room for improvising. They couldn't see that if something would be hard to implement then it would have to be replaced or simplified. That lost motivation points.
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"You should challenge your fates. When all else fails, you can still die fighting." ~Yune
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Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 02:32:03 am »
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I have created a mediafire account to store my resources.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=94fe5d9a55b3d085e7ba8e3c6e11ce208de5a6e57f4893c4c95965eaa7bc68bc

Kren, the trouble with making one of my projects a community project is that I code in Multimedia Fusion 2 while most everyone else uses Game Maker. Sure it would be useful for resource gathering, but in the end nobody can really contribute to the source code, let alone use it.

I do suggest a remastering of a gameboy color game, or LttP in MC or GBC style. It's easy to do if everyone contributes, so there's motivation. The "King of Thieves" project had a LOT of creativity that, IMO, killed the project because it would be hard to implement all of that.

Another big reason for the failure, though, is the fact that many of the contributors wanted this huge story and didn't want to leave much room for improvising. They couldn't see that if something would be hard to implement then it would have to be replaced or simplified. That lost motivation points.
for the resource part we could easily use ZFGC resource, thats not the problem. about the "It's easy to do if everyone contributes, so there's motivation." I disagree, it is impossible to make everyone contribute, thats what happened with the last project, at first everyone helped, but then the motivation start to fell I blame myself for not be able to revive it, and partially the staff for not helping the project.

hmm the problem with improvising is that it will consume more time, see it this way, you have a the city map, then near the end you decide to add hookshot and to hide a piece of heart in the map that you can only reach by using the hookshot, then you have to edit the map layers just to make it work, IMO planning is important, but IMO  everything we though wasn't hard to add, it was just not well though enough, for example the roof walking and the balance thing was a huuge problem since, it took long to program and it was only going to be used in the city and probably in one or two maps of the temples, so it was more of a gimmick.
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Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2009, 02:37:11 am »
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While it's good to realize our past errors, we shouldn't discuss them for a long time. I think we can all agree that the failure was because of

a) Lack of motivation due to unsupportive staff
b) Lack of motivation due to absence of thorough planning
c) Lack of resources
d) Lack of contribution
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"You should challenge your fates. When all else fails, you can still die fighting." ~Yune
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gm112

Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 02:38:50 am »
hmm It will not work, last time it didn't worked no matter what the staff did, We started the city, and it never got completely accepted, we started the NPCs but the ideas were lacking same of spriters, the story had just too many things that should have been decided at first.


This is why I suggested we build a community resource list first, instead of a community fan game. Didn't anybody read my post >_>..?
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Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 02:39:56 am »
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It was kind of obscured by all the other comments you made. Hence the reason for this topic.
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"You should challenge your fates. When all else fails, you can still die fighting." ~Yune
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gm112

Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2009, 03:39:56 am »
It was kind of obscured by all the other comments you made. Hence the reason for this topic.
Can you please elaborate?
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Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2009, 04:27:20 am »
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My idea over handling the next community project was based on two premises. The first being that if it were to fail, there would still be something that arose from the work on it that would be of use to others. The second being that if the project were to stagnate, there would be a way to give it sustainable activity again. The only real negative would be total and complete forum apathy.

My idea is something that can be done well so long as the game that is made in tandem with the engine is a simple one. Because it will be done in Minish Cap graphics, the major workings of the engine will try to best emulate what is in the Minish Cap. However simply remaking the Minish Cap would be too easy. Creating a reworking of an earlier of later Zelda game would be the next best course of action - the easiest candidates being the Zelda games for the Gameboy/Gameboy Color as some of their characters are in the Minish Cap and the Wind Waker since the style is relatively similar.

Since the engine and game are separate, contests on the forum can be set up that are either for the engine and the game or just something random that would fit in the Minish Cap style for the engine. As for the resource list, as I said previously, if the game were to be based on an existing Zelda game, there would likely be graphics in the Minish Cap style that would fit already. This would mean that in terms of graphics, there would be rips and fewer customs - with the customs themselves still being possible to do. As for doing the engine in Game Maker, it is what most people know and there already exists coding examples of how to do most things that just haven't been put together that well yet.
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Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2009, 04:31:38 am »
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One thing we have to do is keep everything organized.  Like, let's get to work on the story before jumping onto enemies and sprites.  There were a lot of threads with different areas in the original project.  Also, we don't need 50 million different threads for the same thing.  I remember at one point there were 3 different threads for the storyline.  What I think we can do to fix that is only allow project leaders to create threads, but let everyone post in those threads.  That way the team can better focus on what they want to work on until they've got it solidified.  When it's done, archive it.  Then move onto the next section.  This will keep random threads from appearing.

Second, resources.  We decided on a less-than-half-finished style.  I think something existing would fit better.  Decide on a style EARLY on in the project.  Like, during story development.  Build a resource archive and make it easy to work through.

Third, this needs staff support.  That's one of the reasons why the last one failed. 

Let's get a solid team together, people who won't leave due to a lack of motivation.  Encourage help from outside of the team (the contest ideas can help with that) and keep the staff on it to make sure the forum knows about it.
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i love big weenies and i cannot lie
Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2009, 05:02:03 am »
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I'm still here...I haven't been motivated very well or active, but I've kept tabs on what is going on. I think it's a whole staff thing. I hope I'll be allowed to continue to help program on future versions of this project, or continue working on the current version. It was just getting stuff done - I felt that the lack of motivation and outpouring of graphics to actually "make" the game, and indecisiveness, caused me to lose some motivation as well. I apologize.

Still here, as always, to lend my GM programming knowledge. I mean, we still have a very solid engine we can use.
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Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2009, 05:19:17 am »
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MG-Zero:

My idea avoids the need to would about things such as plots or completely new level design. It also establishes the graphical style of the game to be Minish Cap. In terms of staff support it has the site staff to hold contests for it and many of the tools from those such as Windy will make attaining resources for it easier. It's strength is found in its standardization of an engine which can be overseen by a small group of individuals while a large share of the work can be done in small contributions by community members.

The idea I have put forward isn't as flashy as something completely new, but it would be something easy to do which could prove we all would be able to get something done. And as I said earlier, no matter what, my idea improves ZFGC in some manner even if it fails.

Scooternew:

The current version of the community project can go on, it just will no longer be considered the community project - as I have said, chances are it would get demoted to a team project if work on it were to continue or that it would just get canceled and have its resources dispersed if not. Working on the new community project might even spur some interest in the old one somehow.

The idea for separating the new community project into an engine and a game based on the engine was also put together such that it would be the easiest course of action for the programmer. If the game were to halt due to a spriting concern, other aspects of what would be a Minish Cap engine could be programmed. It is a lot more dynamic.

But yeah, you and what you have worked on would be helpful for this new project.
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gm112

Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2009, 05:32:03 am »


The idea for separating the new community project into an engine and a game based on the engine was also put together such that it would be the easiest course of action for the programmer. If the game were to halt due to a spriting concern, other aspects of what would be a Minish Cap engine could be programmed. It is a lot more dynamic.

But yeah, you and what you have worked on would be helpful for this new project.
4sword, would it be a good idea to make the community project based on compiling resources first? Sprite sheets, music(if this is allowed but I don't see why not..), maps, and perhaps programming examples(eg: How to make an OOT text engine in C#), etc? Meh..
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Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2009, 05:48:02 am »
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The start of the process for the new community project will include gather resources, but specific resources related to the Minish Cap. Programming resources will be Game Maker because that is what the engine will be made with - it will not be made directly from what is found but what is found will be useful for understanding how to do certain things.

Sprite sheets are only useful if they can be used by those making the game easily; e.g. Link using a sword would have the sword separate from Link, there would be an easy way to tell alignment by the use of shadows, etc. Maps would not be needed so much as tilesets would be; if a 2D game were being remade, its map can be found online and would only be used as a reference of how to place things, if the remade game were a 3D one, the maps would have to be derived from a Minish Cap tileset.

Resource gathering is fine, but it has to be related and useful to the engine. Otherwise the resource gather would be mostly irrelevant to the project.
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gm112

Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2009, 05:57:20 am »
It would be kind of hard to keep the engine up to date :S. Bah..  I'm not even going to argue because GameMaker is the most used here :(.

Resource gathering is fine, but it has to be related and useful to the engine. Otherwise the resource gather would be mostly irrelevant to the project.
Heheh.. it would be. I'm just saying that rebuilding ZFGCs "resource list" would help spark fan game development again.
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Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2009, 06:09:29 am »
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It's not that I dislike "advanced" programming languages. In fact, I love C++ and in my recent boredom I have been trying to write a sprite system that stores and reads graphics in a similar style to how it would be on a GBA/DS - in terms of avoiding image redundancy in different but similar sprites when possible. It is like that for most "advanced" type projects here - in that they are mostly headed by either individuals or are focused on certain small tasks and that being all or most of it.

Heck, if the community project in Game Maker is somewhat successful then there would be a list of resources able to be easily used by those creating a game in an advanced language and most of the psuedo-code would be done in Game Maker already. But yeah, a community project has to be something that is at most people's level.

The resource list which would be maintained in the Graphics section of the forum would have more than just Minish Cap in it so long as whatever else was ripped well and was useful - i.e. if there are good LTTP rips that are useful to developers, they will be included (priority given to workable tilesets and animated object images).
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gm112

Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2009, 06:59:06 am »
It's not that I dislike "advanced" programming languages. In fact, I love C++ and in my recent boredom I have been trying to write a sprite system that stores and reads graphics in a similar style to how it would be on a GBA/DS - in terms of avoiding image redundancy in different but similar sprites when possible. It is like that for most "advanced" type projects here - in that they are mostly headed by either individuals or are focused on certain small tasks and that being all or most of it.

Heck, if the community project in Game Maker is somewhat successful then there would be a list of resources able to be easily used by those creating a game in an advanced language and most of the psuedo-code would be done in Game Maker already. But yeah, a community project has to be something that is at most people's level.
I agree with you right there. ZFGCSDK was pretty much the iteration of the community project if it started off with a more advanced language >_< and failed miserably. But yeah, there are too many people here who are dependent on GameMaker which is fine.

Quote
The resource list which would be maintained in the Graphics section of the forum would have more than just Minish Cap in it so long as whatever else was ripped well and was useful - i.e. if there are good LTTP rips that are useful to developers, they will be included (priority given to workable tilesets and animated object images).
Well, that all sounds good. The only problem now is who would maintain the project. I think Infin is up for the job. Then, someone should maintain graphics section, etc.. It's like anyone can contribute to the project, but there would be someone who just see's through completion and sets the base template for everyone. >_< I love how there's a sudden emphasis on this, though. :D
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Re: Community Project Redesign
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2009, 08:18:21 am »
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Since I joined Ive had an interest in the Community Projects. The problem I see with the current project is that no one is making a decision. It is more a lot of discussion in many threads and nothing is done. With a community project you would also like to give newbies a chance to contribute as veterans move on to other stuff. If you have to work through all those threads you would think twice before contributing. I also noticed that everyone jumped at making the contents of the game, before they even know what the concept is. This results in people doing a lot of useless work. Also I've looked anything concerning programming was available, but that isn't the case. So my advice will be the following:
1) Have a captain (and maybe officers) to steer the ship.
2) Have some facility to share resources, like graphics, audio and programming.
3) Have a place that contains all the information about the game and to-do lists the game. The information will also be the GDD of the game. To prevent that every one jumps onto assets and programming, you might want to let the captain and officers make a beginning GDD with the most basic stuff. You also perhaps want to add some technical info about how big tiles are, and how many tiles Link passes when he jumps of the cliff. Or how the state machines (if your using state machines) of Link and the story work. The buttons used.
From the starter concept the community can discuss everything, but once the captains says it is set, no discussion is possible anymore.
4) Site staff back up would be nice.

For a community project you don't need to remake an existing Zelda game, but you could do a homebrew story as well. You could even revive the current one. You do need to set some basics at the start, like how the engine will be build, the graphic style and so on. This has to be found on the information page and best be decided by the captains.

4Sword. It could be me, but from your replies it seems as if you want to constrict every fan game to MC style and only use the stuff that can be ripped from the game. Sometimes it is necessary to create some custom stuff and let the captains decide to use it in the assets list. You also might one day decide to do a community game in 3D or make an new graphics style. But to put everything in a topic on the forum might not be the best idea. Because from my own experience when I have to find something in 20 pages topic, I already lose much motivation, to search through useless replies. Also because you have to read the entire bloody history of how a thing is developed, while you just want the thing.

Those are my thoughts. Niek Hoeijmakers signing off!

PS: what ever happend to the current one (King of Thieves), if it is dead I would like to see if I can brew a decent concept for it, which might bring it back on track again. That is if someone were to give me some of the latest info on the game.
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