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Author Topic: Israel/Hezbollah crisis  (Read 1793 times)

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Pyru

Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« on: August 15, 2006, 10:22:12 pm »
Well, where do you stand on the issue? Yes, Israel had/has a right to defend itself from any attacks from enemies, but more Lebanese civilians not linked to Hezbollah have been killed by Israeli fire in the conflict so far than Israeli citizens (civilian and military) have been killed by Hezbollah.

In fact, killing so many innocent civilians may just push more towards Hezbollah...

On a similar topic, what do you think of the ceasefire? I, for one, believe it averted what could have very well turned into a World War 3... the situations seemed to eerily mirror the events leading up to the first World War.
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Re: Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2006, 10:30:25 pm »
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I think that the whole thing is being overblown by the media.  Hezbollah is mad how Israel invaded Lebanon, but Hezbollah crossed the border to kidnap two soldiers.  And yet, Hezbollah blames Israel for the provocation.  Israel dropped flyers prior to a lot of the attacks that told that Israel was going to attack and for the Lebanese people to leave, but a lot of them stayed.  Also, a lot of Lebanese people decided to go back to their homes when it was not safe. 

The cease-fire is crap.  Hezbollah and other Arab states have a strong desire to kill Isreal, so they will make up any excuse to do it. 

It may have became WWIII if the United States and Britain were not focused on Iraq and Afghanistan.  Because then, Western nations would defend Israel and Arab nations would defend Lebanon.  The United Nations could avoid World War 3 though possibly, but maybe not because they cannot back anything up.   
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Pyru

Re: Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2006, 10:38:00 pm »
I think that the whole thing is being overblown by the media.  Hezbollah is mad how Israel invaded Lebanon, but Hezbollah crossed the border to kidnap two soldiers.

Which provoked Israel into trying to get them back, because they are fiercely loyal and will always try to get captured soldiers back...

And more Israeli soldiers have died because of the invasion.

Israel dropped flyers prior to a lot of the attacks that told that Israel was going to attack and for the Lebanese people to leave, but a lot of them stayed.

I've heard of convoys leaving the areas that they were warned about being hit by Israeli fire. I don't know how much that accounts for the total deaths of Lebanese citizens, though.

Also, a lot of Lebanese people decided to go back to their homes when it was not safe.

Who tells them when it's safe?

The cease-fire is crap.  Hezbollah and other Arab states have a strong desire to kill Isreal, so they will make up any excuse to do it.

Hezbollah is not an Arab state. It is a political party, a militia and a terrorist organisation. Also, they lack the resources to "kill" Israel at the present time. 

It may have became WWIII if the United States and Britain were not focused on Iraq and Afghanistan.  Because then, Western nations would defend Israel and Arab nations would defend Lebanon.  The United Nations could avoid World War 3 though possibly, but maybe not because they cannot back anything up.   

The United Nations would avoid it by trying to arrange a ceasefire and by sending their own forces in to try and prevent hostilities... wait! That's what they're doing. My mistake.
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Re: Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2006, 10:46:28 pm »
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The United Nations had peace keepers in that region for twenty eight years, and they failed their job miserably.  Also, Hezbollah is a state sponsored organization that is not officially part of Lebanon; there is a Hezbollah party, but the terrorist group is independent from the government.  I would consider long range missles and powerful friends all that Hezbollah needs to wipe out Israel. 

More Israeli soldiers have died, but it was a battle and not a tea party; people get hurt.  However, the militaries on both sides suffered losses, and that is victory enough for both sides.

Safety is determined by the United Nations really.  The Lebanese people went in before the UN reestablished their troops in the area, and thus their safety could not be insured.  To be fair though, nobody really listens to the UN.

I do not support Israel or Hezbollah.  I just support an end to fighting that lasts.
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Pyru

Re: Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2006, 10:56:57 pm »
The United Nations had peace keepers in that region for twenty eight years, and they failed their job miserably.

Their job was not to prevent hostilities; their assignment was observation. They were not staffed nor equipped to prevent hostilities. The new force has a new objective, with more forces and better equipment.

Also, some of the UN force there was hit by the Israeli fire.

Also, Hezbollah is a state sponsored organization that is not officially part of Lebanon; there is a Hezbollah party, but the terrorist group is independent from the government.  I would consider long range missles and powerful friends all that Hezbollah needs to wipe out Israel.

Long range missiles that have been failing to kill large numbers of Israelis...

As you mentionned, Lebanese were warned to evacuate southern Lebanon... well, Hezbollah are only able to hit targets in Northern Israel. Why doesn't Israel simply evacuate it's people out of the area?

As for the powerful friends... are they powerful enough?

More Israeli soldiers have died, but it was a battle and not a tea party; people get hurt.  However, the militaries on both sides suffered losses, and that is victory enough for both sides.

My point was that if Israel's objective was to save as many Israeli lives as possible, they have lost more Israelis in a short time fighting than from years of bombardment from Hezbollah missiles.

Safety is determined by the United Nations really.  The Lebanese people went in before the UN reestablished their troops in the area, and thus their safety could not be insured.  To be fair though, nobody really listens to the UN.

To be fair, none of those people really knew who to listen to, and why to listen to them. They just wanted to get back to their homes and their property; can you blame them?

I do not support Israel or Hezbollah.  I just support an end to fighting that lasts.

Nuking the hell out of both them would work, wouldn't it? :P
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Re: Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2006, 11:08:34 pm »
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Who sends people to observe for twenty eight years?  And if they were there to observe, you would think that they would have observed the hostilities prior to the outbreak of violence and took it seriously. 

The UN post hit by Israel was accidental as reported by a UN agent before he died.  The hill was a strategic spot, and both sides were in the area. 

So, whenever a missle is fired at Israel, they should just move down?  If they did that, then Lebanon would seize up their land.  Israel was even so kind as to give Lebanon the land back in a previous conflict, and yet they cannot stay apart and free of violence.

Iran and Syria are pretty powerful.

There comes a point when getting hit relentlessly on both sides has to draw a big conflict.  People are never going to be content with bombs going off forever, nor should they be expected to.

I think that the Lebanese people should not complain when they get hurt if they knowingly put themselves in danger.  Anyone who puts their house before their family needs to get their priorities in line.

I think I remember something of a bi-state solution, but I am not sure how that worked out.  When one side is acting irrationally, it is hard to agree though, so things do not get resolved.
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Pyru

Re: Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2006, 11:19:09 pm »
Who sends people to observe for twenty eight years?

The UN, apparently...

And if they were there to observe, you would think that they would have observed the hostilities prior to the outbreak of violence and took it seriously.

Who says they didn't?

The UN post hit by Israel was accidental as reported by a UN agent before he died.  The hill was a strategic spot, and both sides were in the area.

Just sayin'. They should be a little more careful about say, not shooting at UN peacekeeping forces and Lebanese civilians.

So, whenever a missle is fired at Israel, they should just move down?  If they did that, then Lebanon would seize up their land.  Israel was even so kind as to give Lebanon the land back in a previous conflict, and yet they cannot stay apart and free of violence.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying they should move their civilians out of the area. And if they wanna take out some Hezbollah missile launchers from time to time, do it without bombing massive areas populated with large numbers of innocent civilians.

Besides, who's to say that now, Israel won't nick that land from Lebanon?

Iran and Syria are pretty powerful.

Iran have threatened the destruction of Israel for years, but are in the unfortunate position right now of a) lacking nuclear weapons (or sufficiently advanced nuclear weapons) while also b) being suspected of having advanced nuclear weapons. If they get involved in the conflict, then nuclear powers like the US and the UK may get involved... also, doesn't Israel have its own nuclear weapons? It's understandable why they wouldn't use them on Lebanon, but they may very well use them on Iran if Iran got involved.

There comes a point when getting hit relentlessly on both sides has to draw a big conflict.  People are never going to be content with bombs going off forever, nor should they be expected to.

Fair enough. But nor should they kill a disproportionately large number of innocent civilians to achieve their aims.

I think that the Lebanese people should not complain when they get hurt if they knowingly put themselves in danger.  Anyone who puts their house before their family needs to get their priorities in line.

Maybe they didn't think they were in danger...? Besides, where are they supposed to go, what are they supposed to do, how are they supposed to live? They leave their possesions, they go somewhere else to escape the fighting, and then they're homeless.

There's also the issue of the huge humanitarian crisis, caused mainly by the actions of Israel. Aid has been unable to get into Lebanon, but hopefully the ceasefire will allow aid workers to save the lives of the many people injured by Israeli attacks...
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redding

Re: Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2006, 04:17:21 am »
I disagree with Israels reprisal attacks, two wrongs don't make a right, and they've taken that 2 steps further. Personally, Israel should give palestine back to the Palestinians, otherwise learn to live in peace with them and share the land. Regarding Hezbollah, they need to settle down, and the Lebanese Government needs to disarm them as they are quite dangerous.

I just feel sorry for lebanon being in the middle of this, where both Hezbollah millitants and Israelis are fighting on their soil.
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Gilgamesh

Re: Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2006, 08:54:14 am »
I'm agreeing with Redding on this. (surprise surprise :p)

As for the UN, I think this situation shows that the UN is capable of, temporarily at least, halting the military activities, though it also makes clear they're not that fast and the treaty is certainly not a definite solution to the problem.

As for WWIII, this event seemed a tad too small, but it is likely, that a big war between Arabic and Western countries could be triggered in a similar fashion. 4Sword raises a good point that the UK and USA is too busy with their own affairs in other countries to really deal with this situation.
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Re: Israel/Hezbollah crisis
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2006, 03:29:25 am »
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I could have sworn that Hezbollah was spelled with an "i", although pronounced as if there was an "e".  >_>;;

Anyhow... I figure, I might as well contribute my two bits.  I just finished watching an interview with the Lebanese leader (president?), and he was saying that Hezbollah would not be disarmed because they stood up to big bad Isreal that likes to kill people and destroy everyone.  He's all "did WE enter Isreal?  No, but they invaded OUR country."

It goes along with what Pyru was saying about it not being Lebanon, but it being a terrorist organization which is not the country.

The problem is that Hezbollah provoked it, they started it, and so the theory is flawed.  Did Isreal enter Lebanon?  Yes.  Guess where Hezbollah is?  I'll give you three choices:

a) Lebanon
b) Lebanon
c) Disney Land

If you guessed "c", you'd be wrong.  Otherwise, you're completely correct!

Anyhow, I'm on Isreal's side... do I agree with everything they've done?  Obviously not.  I agree with them bombing bridges and very strategic places, although I think that they should have taken more time and precision with their attacks.  However, just because their accuracy wasn't 100% doesn't mean that they were intentionally trying to kill Lebonese.  Certainly innocent life would be destroyed-- let's remember that war affects everyone, but just because Hezbollah sucks at killing people, doesn't mean that they wouldn't do much worse if they were able to.

And then we have that whole event with Isreal saying they had a top Hezbollah guy, and Hezbollah's all running behind the UN and saying "we've never heard of him!  Those JEWS are making things up!"

And the UN (full of the European union and other corrupt, self-serving, economic regions) is acting awfully anti-semetic.  Then again, they also hate us "ugly Americans", so perhaps it's not JUST the Jews.  (If Mel Gibson wasn't a conservative, the UN would be all over him.)

I'm very much against the cease-fire.  You have a temporary solution to a long-lasting problem.  We all know that the Lebanese government (who supports Hezbollah) is going to continue to hide behind Hezbollah, rally the anti-semetic UN behind them (I was going to say "in front of", but then I remembered: "hey, it's the UN!"), and continue to try and make Isreal look like the bad guys when they're supporting terrorists.

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I disagree with Israels reprisal attacks, two wrongs don't make a right, and they've taken that 2 steps further.
What was it that they did wrong?  Fighting in the interest of national security?

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Personally, Israel should give palestine back to the Palestinians, otherwise learn to live in peace with them and share the land.
And we ought to give Texas back to Mexico...

...how about: if we keep on bringing the past up, then life will suck.  Black people will remember slavery.  The Scottish will remember England, etc., etc.

It's pointless to make senseless claims about what belongs to who.

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Fair enough. But nor should they kill a disproportionately large number of innocent civilians to achieve their aims.
Listen: the innocents are regretable.  But it's not like Isreal has the advantage of seeing huges signs labled "Hezbollah military base", like others do the US (and they STILL aim for New York... man: no wonder we try to teach these people English... they sure could use a bit of help).

So when you have a gorilla warfare styled war: you aim for strategic and specific places: bridges, Hezbollah "hideouts", etc., etc.

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Just sayin'. They should be a little more careful about say, not shooting at UN peacekeeping forces and Lebanese civilians.
Because they have the benefit of seeing Hezbollah in bright and conformed uniforms.

And about the UN peacekeepers: as they say on Hotel Rwanda: "they're 'peace keepers' not peace makers".

So they have a pointless, crappy job.  I feel sorry for them.

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On a similar topic, what do you think of the ceasefire? I, for one, believe it averted what could have very well turned into a World War 3... the situations seemed to eerily mirror the events leading up to the first World War.
No, WWIII is as much a threat now as ever.  Because remember all these alliances with Iran, North Korea, etc., etc.  So all anyone really needs to do is start attacking one of these countries, and we'll have the same effect.  A ceasefire that won't last in one area doesn't mean a thing.

I know what you mean: it halted some temporary conflicts.  It saved innocent life.  Which is good... but... the Lebanese government is still supporting Hezbollah, won't disarm them, and it's only a matter of time before they attack Isreal yet again.  Which is why it wasn't a very smart decision.  It was a political decision.

Which is the thing that drives me to neo-conservatism.  I LOVE liberal policies (no, not the domestic ones, the others).  And I'd love it if we could abolish the military... but we've got to think things through.  We've got to be smart about it.  Just because innocents died, doesn't mean that it was a war against innocents.  Besides, their lives were taken at a cost that would save many, many more than were lost.

It's a moral sort of issue: if you could kill one terrorist, that-- if left alive would kill thousands of others, would you kill him?  From a moral standpoint, I'd be compelled to kill him!  Certainly, let's take alternative routes!  That'd be great, but there comes a point where you can't take the risk of letting thousands of people die, just by trying to protect a terrorist's "right" to life.

At the same rate, I think it's stupid how you're not allowed to bring magazines, etc., etc. temporarily on airline flights.  It just shows that the terrorists are succeeding at taking away our freedom.

Anywho, I know that my post was pretty scattered, and not focused simply on this topic, but on the war on terror in general, but I think it all connects.

EDIT:

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As for the UN, I think this situation shows that the UN is capable of, temporarily at least, halting the military activities, though it also makes clear they're not that fast and the treaty is certainly not a definite solution to the problem.
Which really doesn't say anything about the UN being useful in any way, shape, or form.
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