ZFGC

ZFGC CP => World Design => King of Thieves => Overworld/Locations => Topic started by: Zaeranos on June 03, 2012, 06:57:44 pm

Title: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 03, 2012, 06:57:44 pm
Version 4.2

Okay, this a new version. 1) I have added names/indicators to areas which had no name before. 2)  I added an arrow between Kokiri Forest and Hyrule Field #2 and made a 2-way arrow between Lake Hylia and Kakariko Village. This is more meant that there are small parts of that area you can't reach from the main part of the area. Think about the Fairy Fountain of the Minish Woods in MC.

Now the Main question is what dimensions do we give each area:

Goron Mountain:
Carbon Mines:
Valley of Death:
Gerudo Desert:
Zora's Domain:
River Valley #1:
River Valley #2:
River Valley #3:
Lake Hylia:
Kokiri Forest:
Deku Swamp:
Hyrule Castle:
Castle Town:
Kakariko Village:
Farms:
Hyrule Field #1:
Hyrule Field #2:
Hyrule Field #3:



Version 4.1

Questions to ask:
1) How do we divide Castle town in poor and rich? North and south? Or West and East?

2) What are interesting parts for Hyrule field? <insert name> Farm? <insert name> highlands/lowlands?

3) What will the dimensions (in tiles) of each area be?


(MC tiles are 16x16 pixels).




Okay another two versions to discuss.

1)The arrows indicate if an area has one or more doors to the adjecent area and in which way travel is possible.
2)The red circles indicate where the actual dungeon entrances are. But it is possible that you need to take a special path in another area to reach that entrance. I know the Earth Temple is in the Carbon Mines, but I think it suits better to be in the Goron Mountains, while you have to take such special path.

Note that even though River Valley is now larger, there are still streams of water, going to other areas, such as Hyrule Field, Hyrule Castle and Castle Town.




Okay, these are 2 options of my overworld layout that I have worked on today. They are the first concepts and personally I think they can be a lot better. However I need some input and especially because somethings in the GDD do not make much sense. These layouts are more to get a feeling about where each are needs to be, the sizes and final positions are not correct yet and need some work.

1) Why is there a Sheikiah dungeon and cog in the Gerudo desert. Especially because the Sheikiah and Gerudo have a rival/enemy relationship. Also Ganondorf was the Gerudo king during the war. Thus why would you keep a cog for safekeeping in enemy teritory.

2) Valley of Death, what is up with that name. I know what it says in the GDD that it is tectonic and vulcanic activity. But the Sheikiah live there and they ar friendly to the Hylians. If they were monsters I could understand, but they are not. Something like the Valley of Shadows would sound a lot better, then the Valley of Death. It sounds so morbid. 

3) River passage, runs all the way from Zora's domain to Lake Hylia? That is pretty far.


Okay those are a few. I am probably forgetting some, but that is maybe for later.
 
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Kami on June 03, 2012, 07:05:53 pm
I like the second layout better than the first one.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 03, 2012, 10:03:22 pm
Addressing your questions..

1) Because we need an excuse to have a desert themed dungeon.  Why is the Spirit Temple located in Gerudo Valley in OoT?  It's not even part of Hyrule, yet there's a temple there in the name of the Gods of Hyrule.  The same goes for the Arbiter Grounds in Twilight Princess.

2) It's the valley of death because well..it's dangerous.  Death Mountain in previous titles has been home to the Gorons, no?  The name isn't associated with the inhabitants.

3) Correct, from Zora's Domain to Lake Hylia.  It also runs around Hyrule as a trade route.  By your designs, yes this is far but that's not to say this cant be fixed in your designs.  Be creative, there are plenty of solutions ;) Think Pac Man for one.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Max. on June 04, 2012, 03:43:58 pm
Niek, I kinda agree with your problems.

1) I thought the Sheikah dungeon WAS in the shiekah area, you just had to go through the desert and interact with the Gerudo area in order to get to the dungeon.
Honestly, here's how I thought it went, you'd track down the shiekah villages, find a shiekah temple and talk to an elder, who'd inform you of the Shiekah Dungeon's hiding place, but you wouldn't be able to get in without the fire and ice arrows, which the Gerudo are in possession of. So you'd go to the Gerudo valley and (probably learn the last/second to last thief skill) invade Gerudo Fortress, similarly to how you did it in OoT, by stealth, knocking out guards, but here you'd be using your thief skills too. You might also at the end learn some more of the plot, start to suspect that your mentor isn't the good Gerudo king.
Then, with fire and ice arrows in tow, you'd return to the skiehah dungeon.

2) I think they're both reasonable. Death Valley because it's under death mountain, Valley of Shadows because it sounds really cool.

3) MG, how do you imagine the river valley? I was kinda thinking we could kinda combine it with Hyrule field? Just have lower elevation parts of the field with a river running through. And maybe waterways could connect many parts of the world, and certain areas could only be accessed by waterway.


Back to your actual map, Niek, I like the second one better. The whole east side of Hyrule field could be the river valley, if we want to connect Zora's domain and Hylia by a river. I do think it might be better if there were areas on every side of Hyrule field though, but that's just personal taste.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 04, 2012, 04:13:42 pm
^^Basically everything Max said
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 06, 2012, 07:09:56 pm
Okay I added two new concepts, which also include possible dungeon locations and exits.

I attached the first two concepts to this post for prosperity sake.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 06, 2012, 07:13:37 pm
I like that second layout a lot, particularly the river running behind the Kokiri Forest!  The only thing is, I think the Shiekah Dungeon is actually in the Desert.

Quote
Hyrule Castle Town/Field
Deku Swamp
Kokiri Forest (Forest Temple)
Zora’s Domain
River Passage
Lake Hylia (Lake Hylia Temple)
Goron Mountain
Carbon Mines (Earth Temple)
Valley of Death
Gerudo Desert (Some Sheikah Themed Dungeon)
Hyrule Castle (Temple of Time/Celestial Clock)

There's a precursor to it though in the Valley of Death where you get the fire/ice arrows.  The Earth Temple is also in the Mines, not Goron Mountain.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 06, 2012, 07:26:30 pm
1) I thought the Sheikah dungeon WAS in the shiekah area, you just had to go through the desert and interact with the Gerudo area in order to get to the dungeon.
Honestly, here's how I thought it went, you'd track down the shiekah villages, find a shiekah temple and talk to an elder, who'd inform you of the Shiekah Dungeon's hiding place, but you wouldn't be able to get in without the fire and ice arrows, which the Gerudo are in possession of. So you'd go to the Gerudo valley and (probably learn the last/second to last thief skill) invade Gerudo Fortress, similarly to how you did it in OoT, by stealth, knocking out guards, but here you'd be using your thief skills too. You might also at the end learn some more of the plot, start to suspect that your mentor isn't the good Gerudo king.
Then, with fire and ice arrows in tow, you'd return to the skiehah dungeon.
^^Basically everything Max said
As I understand Max's explanation. You need to get information from the Sheikiah about the dungeon, then go to Gerudo Desert to get the fire/ice arrows and then return to the Sheikiah to enter the dungeon.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 06, 2012, 07:30:33 pm
This is doable as well, it doesn't change much other than dungeon placement.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 10, 2012, 10:01:10 am
Considering there have not been any more comments. I will continue to work with "Layout4", because I like that one the best as well.

Questions to ask:
1) How do we divide Castle town in poor and rich? North and south? Or West and East?

2) What are interesting parts for Hyrule field? <insert name> Farm? <insert name> highlands/lowlands?

3) What will the dimensions (in tiles) of each area be?


(MC tiles are 16x16 pixels).
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Max. on June 10, 2012, 12:52:34 pm
Steve and I were a while ago discussing the feasibility of having Hyrule Slums occupy the drained moat of Hyrule Town, and have entrances from the east and or west ends of the rich middle. If the moat was like it was in TP, that would probably work, so the slums could form a U around the town, kinda.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 10, 2012, 12:56:47 pm
Could be and would be a nice slums place.

But the problem is, how would Princess Zelda have not seen the slums when she would enter or exit Castle Town. That would mean that The Royal family doesn't leave the Castle and Castle Town. Maybe have a drained moat part in the south end?
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Max. on June 10, 2012, 01:31:48 pm
Well, there would be a big bridge that goes over the moat. I was thinking, this would alleviate any need for the nobles to look at the slums, because they'd only be aware of it if they looked over the edge of the bridge when they were coming or going, and if it's a wide bridge, and also if they're in wagons, there'd be no need. They'd never have any occasion to walk through.

Aamd it's also entirely possible that Zelda has never left. After all, it's a big castle, and she has everything she needs there. She's only 12 or so after all, so she'd have tutors and everything in the castle.
If the slums were in a drained moat, then they couldn't be seen from any of the castle's many towers, either, because they'd be blocked by walls and rich buildings.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 11, 2012, 06:51:38 pm
Could be and would be a nice slums place.

But the problem is, how would Princess Zelda have not seen the slums when she would enter or exit Castle Town. That would mean that The Royal family doesn't leave the Castle and Castle Town. Maybe have a drained moat part in the south end?

This would be an issue regardless of where the slums are located.  We COULD always make the slums covered by much larger buildings from the nicer areas.  Not literally covered, but surrounded by large buildings.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Kami on June 11, 2012, 06:53:45 pm
Wouldn't the slums be larger than the rich portion do to most people being poor.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: HyperRidley on June 11, 2012, 07:19:10 pm
I agree with zdude.  Unless the moat is just HUGE it would feel awkward for the rich to make up the majority of the town's space.  I could see it working if the middle class is included with the higher-ups and are allowed to mingle with the truly rich folk.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 11, 2012, 07:26:08 pm
Also true.  How big were we planning to make so said moat?
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Kami on June 11, 2012, 07:50:14 pm
I don't think we planned out the size of it, I'm also going to post my if thats ok with you.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 11, 2012, 08:27:32 pm
Yes please do, but create your own thread for it.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 11, 2012, 09:07:08 pm
Wouldn't the slums be larger than the rich portion do to most people being poor.
Not neccessarily. You need to consider that the rich people have larger houses, wider streets, houses further apart and additional stuff like parks. Rich people are in fewer number (although some middle class can be found here as well, which evens the numbers a bit), but take up more space then poor people.



Well here is something else to consider. The guards put the player from the rich part to the poor part. This makes poor and rich two different areas with their own view limits. Making a U form around the rich area is saying that there are 3 different poor areas, because the area needs to be rectangular in shape.

So do we want rich and poor to be separate areas or just one?
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Max. on June 11, 2012, 09:28:20 pm
I think having multiple views for both areas would probably be good, again, depending on how big they are. But they could have different central focuses. I.e., there's a rich area centered around the market, a rich area centered around a park, etc.

Also, even if some of the slums are in the moat, it doesn't mean they all have to be. Maybe the moat is like the worst of it all.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: HyperRidley on June 12, 2012, 03:29:45 am
Also, even if some of the slums are in the moat, it doesn't mean they all have to be. Maybe the moat is like the worst of it all.

If we go this route, perhaps we can have some sort of black market in the moat.  The guards/upper-class citizens don't really care since it's just the societal outcasts ripping off each other.  This would also make for a nice hideout for the thief gang Link belongs to.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 12, 2012, 08:55:19 pm
This thread seems to be getting off topic xD Can we move Castle Town discussion to the other thread?
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 13, 2012, 04:27:59 am
Okay to repeat the questions?

Questions to ask:
1) How do we divide Castle town in poor and rich? North and south? Or West and East? Considering we are not making two separate parts.

2) What are interesting parts for Hyrule field? <insert name> Farm? <insert name> highlands/lowlands?

3) What will the dimensions (in tiles) of each area be?
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 13, 2012, 05:39:55 pm
I'm figuring around 50x50 tiles where each tile ix 16x16 tiles.  That's roughly 800x800 pixels for one section.

For a few interesting locations..

A farm would be nice
Various circus locations
Kakariko Village
Thief Hideouts
Overgrown Keese caves
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 13, 2012, 07:59:43 pm
I'm figuring around 50x50 tiles where each tile ix 16x16 tiles.  That's roughly 800x800 pixels for one section.
Thus Castle Town, Goron Mountain, Hyrule Castle River Valley are each squares of 800x800 pixels. I don't think I get the grasp of what you mean.

Kakariko Village
Another Hylian Village. Sounds interesting, but will it work.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 13, 2012, 08:39:32 pm
Quote
Thus Castle Town, Goron Mountain, Hyrule Castle River Valley are each squares of 800x800 pixels. I don't think I get the grasp of what you mean.

No, that's far too small and is not what I mean.  Think of Link to the Past where the overworld was split into squares.  When you reached the screen borders, it would scroll and when you reached the boundary of a square, it would shift to the next square.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 14, 2012, 04:26:05 am
Ah okay, I was more thinking to the likes of MC. Where each overworld area on the map fitted together and their own size. Hyrule Town was 1008x1008 in size for example.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Wasabi on June 14, 2012, 01:56:51 pm
I've uploaded the original Minish Cap map that I dug up off my backup hard drive, for size/design reference.

http://loopyluke.com/zfgccp/LegendOfZelda-MinishCap-Hyrule.png
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Max. on June 14, 2012, 10:41:13 pm
This is NOT my area of expertise, but  feel like we're gonna want Hyrule town (both rich & poor) to be bigger than MC's town, in addition to ours being much more dense. But probably not to the point of encompassing Hyrule town + North field.

Also, as we have it now, I personally think we could include Hyrule Castle as part of the overworld (obviously not the dungeon or inside parts), but the roof, which Link could have to traverse (probably in secret to hide from the increased guards in this area) to reach areas he'd have to go to to speak with Zelda and Ganon, who both live in the castle.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 18, 2012, 04:19:40 pm
I agree, the town should be bigger than MC's.  MC's town was actually pretty small from what I remember.  We don't need to take up too much of the field, but it should be quite a significant part of the overworld.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 18, 2012, 07:53:14 pm
Well, Hyrule Town in MC is 1008 x 960 pixels. Which is 63 x 60 tiles. North Hyrule Field is 1008 x 800 pixels => 63 x 50 tiles. And Hyrule Castle Garden is 1008 x 528 pixels => 63 x 33 tiles. Total is 1008 x 2288 pixels => 63 x 143 tiles

I think Hyrule town should also be larger then in MC. I think maybe we have Castle Town and Hyrule Castle together be 75 x 145 tiles => 1200 x 2320 pixels. And then Castle town be 75 x 100 tiles and Hyrule Castle be 75 x 45 tiles.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 18, 2012, 08:09:49 pm
Now this brings a gameplay element into question - Do we want the map to scroll continuously, or be split into squares like in lttp?  The later is kind of like culling, but not really.  The former will need some optimizations to be done.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 18, 2012, 08:16:46 pm
Actually MC is also split up in rectangles and within a rectangle the view scrolls continuously. Unlike ALttP the rectangles are in different sizes and a fade effect happens when you go from one area to the other. This allows for a more diverse set of themes in the game. Which I like better.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: fictionaldogs on June 18, 2012, 08:25:35 pm
New here, yes, but just wish to pop in to say that personally I have always felt like the map being split into squares has always been one of the reason I've liked Zelda. I'm not sure why. I guess it has to do with it giving you a better sense of the area you are in.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 18, 2012, 08:32:37 pm
What kinda squares do you mean. For the 2D Zelda's there have 3 different ways.

1) Equal view sized rectangles. Like in LoZ, LA, OOS and OOA

2) Equal large rectangles. Like in ALttP

3) Unequal area sized rectangles. Like in MC.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: fictionaldogs on June 18, 2012, 09:23:29 pm
Ah sorry for that man. I do mean like the first example you've given there.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Wasabi on June 19, 2012, 05:03:33 am
Personally I like the view to scroll, it makes areas feel larger and flows better. Not sure what you mean by LTTP splitting it into squares - afaik it was just split into areas like MC, at least that's what my memory is telling me.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Kren on June 19, 2012, 05:49:59 am
We should do a mixture of OOA/OOS and LTTP.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 19, 2012, 10:48:58 am
I prefer MC's style
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Leduardo on June 19, 2012, 03:13:30 pm
Me too.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 19, 2012, 04:24:12 pm
Let's not reinvent the wheel.  We're using MC style sprites, so we'll make the overworld function the same.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 19, 2012, 08:13:57 pm
I added version 4.2.

Now the Main question is what dimensions do we give each area. I already made a suggestion for Castle Town and Hyrule Castle.

Goron Mountain:
Carbon Mines:
Valley of Death:
Gerudo Desert:
Zora's Domain:
River Valley #1:
River Valley #2:
River Valley #3:
Lake Hylia:
Kokiri Forest:
Deku Swamp:
Hyrule Castle: 75 x 45 tiles?
Castle Town: 75 x 100 tiles?
Kakariko Village:
Farms:
Hyrule Field #1:
Hyrule Field #2:
Hyrule Field #3:
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 19, 2012, 08:15:56 pm
Might be difficult to place a size on them without having an idea of what they'll look like first.  We have a layout of where everything should appear, so why not leave it up to other submissions to determine the size of those critical areas?
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 19, 2012, 08:35:42 pm
Well, I would foresee some calculation nightmares. In trying to fit the submissions to the layout. As the dimensions leave large gaps or overlap. You could then say that the layout has to change, but there are some clear directions in the GDD about that, which would make it a pain in the ass. Or you could say that some people should completely revise their submissions. But who will have to do that?

I think it is easier on all of us if there are some directives on the dimensions of each area. But those are just my thoughts.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 19, 2012, 08:49:56 pm
It's a good point.  If we were to do it that way, everyone doing their submissions would have to work with each other.  Could get quite complicated.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 20, 2012, 04:11:29 pm
Besides the dimesions people would also have to worry about exits, waterstreams, cliff edges that elevate the world. Not to mention what is put on the border that continues in the next area. It are a shitload of stuff to consider. So I was thinking that providing the Dimension to work with would at least facilitate the cooperation and coordination between contributors.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: thestig on June 20, 2012, 06:35:49 pm
Sorry but, the first comment I had seeing that map was, Minish Cap world map. It literally looks like a 1:1 implementation of that map, with minor changes to it. But one critic of the spot, Lake Hylia and Kakariko Village next to each other? Never ever in a Zelda game's life.

I won't accept that layout. The location themselves are fine, but that layout won't work. Though with the direction in regards to defining size, that's a good place to start following locations.

EDIT: I'll have to think about size requirements to really have a suggestion."

EDIT #2: Also, 75x100 tiles for Castle Town? With 16x16 tiles? Dude, you do realize that we're talking about a TOWN here, right? Not a room in a house?
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 20, 2012, 06:39:02 pm
I have a concern with the size as well.  This seems like we're on a VERY small scale and I don't see how we're going to fit a poor and rich town into 75x100 tiles.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 20, 2012, 07:27:05 pm
Sorry but, the first comment I had seeing that map was, Minish Cap world map. It literally looks like a 1:1 implementation of that map, with minor changes to it.
Well, that was I realized as well, when I made the first drafts. However I followed the directions to the GDD. This stated that the Carbon mines are on the mountain. Death Valley is at the food of the mountain and it is the barrier to Gerudo desert. Another thing is that to get to Kokiri Forest you have to go through Deku Swamp. Next River Valley goes from Zora's Domain to Lake Hylia.

Then there are the following to consider:
- Mountains go at the North end of the map. Anywhere else and you get strange and ackward perspectives.
- Hyrule Castle Town is place where the most interaction with NPC's take place. So considering it is the center of the gameplay, then it is best to place it the center of the map.
- You don't put a lake and a desert next to one another.


But one critic of the spot, Lake Hylia and Kakariko Village next to each other? Never ever in a Zelda game's life.
Why not? Lake's and rivers often attract people to live. But my primary reason for putting it there is that the living communities for the Gerudo, Sheikiah, Gorons and Zora on the west. Hylians are in the center and only the Deku live on the east. I put Kakariko Village there to balance things out.




About the size. That was a suggestion. If you read a bit back then you can see how I came to that. But feel free to make another suggestion. I'm also fine with 150 x 200 tiles or 750 x 1000.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: thestig on June 20, 2012, 07:42:22 pm
>- Mountains and Hyrule Town.
Very, very true.

>- Kakariko / Lake Hylia
Kakariko Village was usually placed near Death Mountains, or within range. ALTTP and FSA are the only exceptions to the rule here, I believe. But meh, Kakariko Village isn't even in the design. So I don't even know if that can go into the Overworld Submission anyways.

Judging from how the design doc is, its logical to place Deku Swamp within range of Lake Hylia in some form, because of the swamp. Perhaps this could be between Gerudo Desert and Lake Hylia?(It doesn't HAVE to be, it could be still getting run-off from Lake Hylia somewhere. Lake Hylia wouldn't be in middle/(west or east)southernish area then) The valley of death could be blocked off by the Deku Swamp.. how I'm picturing it, is much less grid-like than how you originally suggested the content to be. This could be what makes up the majority of the southern part of the Overworld.

But we also need to consider the River Valley and the runoff from Lake Hylia to Zora's Domain.. where would that go?

I should probably just draw up my idea rather than trying to describe it...

And for tile sizes, I don't personally want to debate that till we got placement down. I mean you guys can but I'll review anything that comes through.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: masterpaul on June 23, 2012, 01:13:26 am
Can anyone quickly debrief me, I just finished handing in my uni work?
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Shane on June 23, 2012, 02:27:12 pm
Hm, judging from the placement of areas this layout seems to ignore Nintendo's official geography of Hyrule. For one Death Mountain and it's mine/city in OoT and TP (If I recall correctly Goron Mountain is the new name for Death Mountain) was to the west of Hyrule Castle/Castle Town and at the foot of it was Kakariko Village. Gerudo Desert in OoT and TP was close to Lake Hylia on the eastern side of Hyrule. Kokiri Forest was to the southwest of Hyrule in OoT. I'll try and make Zora's Domain somewhere near Death Mountain, like in OoT. I say Hyrule Field should surround Hyrule Castle and it's town. From there rejoin the remaining areas.

If we want KoT to look official as possible, we must try to use Nintendo's official geography of Hyrule as to our advantage. The way it is right now, I feel mixed, it can work, but it won't feel like the same official Hyrule. I'm going to decline this one. Sorry if this message came off harsh. =(

Title: Re: [REJECTED] Overworld concept layout
Post by: thestig on June 23, 2012, 02:55:41 pm
Gonna mark this as rejected, I guess. Niek if you plan on trying to revise this idea for another attempt at getting accepted, feel free. Just change the tag to "Revise" if you intend on it. ;p
Title: Re: [REJECTED] Overworld concept layout
Post by: masterpaul on June 23, 2012, 11:08:29 pm
Hm, judging from the placement of areas this layout seems to ignore Nintendo's official geography of Hyrule. For one Death Mountain and it's mine/city in OoT and TP (If I recall correctly Goron Mountain is the new name for Death Mountain) was to the west of Hyrule Castle/Castle Town and at the foot of it was Kakariko Village. Gerudo Desert in OoT and TP was close to Lake Hylia on the eastern side of Hyrule. Kokiri Forest was to the southwest of Hyrule in OoT. I'll try and make Zora's Domain somewhere near Death Mountain, like in OoT. I say Hyrule Field should surround Hyrule Castle and it's town. From there rejoin the remaining areas.

If we want KoT to look official as possible, we must try to use Nintendo's official geography of Hyrule as to our advantage. The way it is right now, I feel mixed, it can work, but it won't feel like the same official Hyrule. I'm going to decline this one. Sorry if this message came off harsh. =(

  • ~ Shane

Well in Oot hyrule is in the corner.In TP hyrule kingdon got expanded by the northen plains, which weren't part of hyrule before. We ended up having snowpeak mountains and a few other mountains,.

However we don't know what's behind death mountain, behind the dessert, its a whole new plain, free for our imagination, but it should follow geographical rules.

E.g why is there a desert next to blush green plains? Is it because the height cocentration of salt and other minerals in the water or is it because there's a mountain range blocking rain clouds?
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 25, 2012, 07:32:49 pm
I'll revise it. However I must note that the GDD itself already goes against "official" Nintendo layout of Hyrule. If there is even a official geography of Hyrule. Because they change it in every game.

For one Death Mountain and it's mine/city in OoT and TP (If I recall correctly Goron Mountain is the new name for Death Mountain) was to the west of Hyrule Castle/Castle Town and at the foot of it was Kakariko Village.
Goron Mountain is a region of Holodrum. In none of the games that take place in Hyrule is Death Mountain ever called Goron Mountain. The only name change was in MC, where it was called Mt. Crenel. Death Mountain moved around through the games. I thought in TP Death Mountain was to the west of Hyrule Castle.

Gerudo Desert in OoT and TP was close to Lake Hylia on the eastern side of Hyrule.
In ALttP the dessert was in the south west and Lake Hylia was in the sout east, with a swamp and a passage in between. In OOT there was an empty cloud area between the desert and Lake Hylia.

I'll try to make it like "official" Hyrule Geography, but that would mean I would need to take some liberties with the GDD.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: thestig on June 26, 2012, 02:43:37 am
The only reason why we're suggesting the official Hyrule layouts is that they seem more well-thought-out than what you're presenting to us. As harsh as that sounds, it's the simple truth.
Title: Re: [SUBMISSION] Overworld concept layout
Post by: masterpaul on June 26, 2012, 03:08:15 pm
I thought in TP Death Mountain was to the west of Hyrule Castle.


In TP wii the whole world was mirrored for right handed gamers, however the world in TP gamecube is the same.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 26, 2012, 03:57:42 pm
TP had the whole world flipped on the Wii.  Hyrule is laid out more or less the same as it was in OoT with a few exceptions (the castle placement for example)

EDIT: Also, if I remember right, Goron Mountain is actually surrounded by the valley of death.  Also, I think Zora's Domain would work out pretty damn nicely next to the valley or the mountain.  Considering it's a cavern, it would geographically fit very well in that location and not have to worry about lava and such from the mountain.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 26, 2012, 08:25:23 pm
I took a try at it.  Black lines are points of entry/exit between two locations.  Also, that yellow-brownish line in the valley of death is a wall for a cave.  I didn't really draw this to scale btw, I just wanted to figure a possible layout.

To get from Zora's Domain to the mountain, you'd go through a cave in the valley.  This is to keep the player from actually entering the valley before they're supposed to.

I think this makes some decent sense.  To the north is the rocky and arid geography.  Right next to it, underground in Zora's Domain starts the water supply which travels south to the swampy, foresty and wet places.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Kami on June 26, 2012, 08:29:23 pm
I think that one looks better than, design-wise and Layout-wise, Niek's
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Wasabi on June 27, 2012, 03:51:56 am
I also like this one more. Having the water sources spread like that makes it more interesting, and the valley surrounding the mountain makes more sense since you have to travel through it to get to the mountain.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: thestig on June 27, 2012, 04:14:29 am
Lake Hylia could stretch out a little bit more into Hyrule Field imo. But I like the approach Steve's design is going in.. this is what I was trying to get at when I argued against the grid-based layout.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 27, 2012, 01:12:31 pm
Quote
Lake Hylia could stretch out a little bit more into Hyrule Field imo

Like I said, it's not drawn to scale :)
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: thestig on June 27, 2012, 01:32:02 pm
Quote
Lake Hylia could stretch out a little bit more into Hyrule Field imo

Like I said, it's not drawn to scale :)
Oh you and your key terms :C
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on June 28, 2012, 07:10:32 pm
Okay here are some of my comments to them.

1) I don't think Castle Town should surround Hyrule Castle. In none of the Zelda games Hyrule Castle has been ever surrounded by a town. In OOT the town was to the south, although the Castle was encased between the town and (more so) death mountain. In TP the town was in its entirity south of the Castle. And MC even had a bit of Hyrule field between the Castle and Hyrule Town. Besides if gets a bit hard to believe that the Royal Family doesn't see the slums from one of the towers when they are mostly surrounded by all sides.

2) The part of Death Valley south of the desert is a bit weird and probably pointless. In all the Zelda games that had a desert. The desert was surrounded by rock walls and there was only one entrance from a single area. It looks like some additional appendix just to justify Hyrule Field becoming Gerudo Desert.

3) In OOT and TP Zora's Domain is up on a mountain region. When Death Valley is at the foot of the mountain, it seems like Zora's Domain is on the level of Hyrule Field. And thus how would the water flow through River Valley. I always thought that River Valley was a river with waterfalls, that gradually flowed from Zora's Domain to Lake Hylia. You also said that Zora's Domain is underground, thus that would mean the water is flowing up?

4) There is a single off-shoot from river valley. Is that the only additional water way through Hyrule? For such a large large border with Hyrule Field and River Valley, there are no passages from one area to the other? Also Castle Town has only one passage to Hyrule Field, as the second one drops you in the river. In TP and MC there are more entrances/exits out of Castle Town. There are also no passages between Hyrule Field and the Valley of Death.

5) I'm not so fond of the cave passage connecting Hyrule Field and Goron Mountain. Just so that the player won't get into that area before it's time. There is nothing wrong with the player passing through a part of Death Valley a bit to get to Goron Mountain.

6) It is that you said that it is not at scale yet, because Castle Town and Lake Hylia are really small compared to the rest of the world. And Zora's domain is actually really large.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on June 28, 2012, 08:16:58 pm


1) This is really subjective, but ok, all views are considered!

2) I'm not sure I understand?  How is Hyrule Field becoming the desert?  The valley is simply a separation of Hyrule Field from the Desert and mountains.

3) I'm not exactly sure how you concluded what the geography of Hyrule looks like by looking at a 2D layout.  There can simply be a waterfall high up on the rocky portions that flows into Zora's Domain and down the river.

5) It's a means of control.  Did you see anything wrong with the player accessing Zora's River in OoT before getting bombs?

6) Correct, it's not to scale.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: masterpaul on July 03, 2012, 12:49:30 am
Just some points
You can't possibly consider using rivers for any guidelines. A river can change course  after a single storm. After a hundred years, two hundreds years, the river may be flowing completely differently to a different place.

Voclanoes and death mountains, they have the potential to completely dissapear overnight and grow 500 m in one eruption. Volcanoes are also located on a path, which is parrelal to tectonic ridge. Where a active volcano used to be in one game does not mean that's where its'going to be in an other.

Cities in medevil times changed, grew got destroyed and rebuilt all over again, so never does hyrule castle and town have to be the same.

The desert issue, why does an area become a desert so suddenly? Probably due to limitations back then. Those limitations don't apply to as now. What I propose perhaps is to to a mountain ridge or something like that. Seperating fields from desert. Windwaker did mention that hyrule was sorrounded by tall mountains.

Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on July 03, 2012, 04:37:33 am
2) I'm not sure I understand?  How is Hyrule Field becoming the desert?  The valley is simply a separation of Hyrule Field from the Desert and mountains.
Death Valley is the way it is due to tectonic activity of Goron Mountain. So why is there an off-shoot of Death Valley running all the way to the west separating the desert. In all other Zelda games that had a desert in Hyrule, it was always surrounded by a giant rock wall with a single small entrance.

3) I'm not exactly sure how you concluded what the geography of Hyrule looks like by looking at a 2D layout.  There can simply be a waterfall high up on the rocky portions that flows into Zora's Domain and down the river.
Well you have to imagine somethings to see the potential. And natural physics have water flowing from high to low. So this means that Zora's domain has to be higher then Lake Hylia, but that strokes a bit with the underground idea you presented. Unless Zora's Domain is on its own mountain.

5) It's a means of control.  Did you see anything wrong with the player accessing Zora's River in OoT before getting bombs?
No there isn't, just as much as it isn't wrong for Link to enter the lost woods before finishing the first dungeon in OOT. The cave feels really forced. There was nothing wrong with Link going through the Lon Lon Ranch area to reach the Minish woods before he actually had to do something in the Lon Lon Ranch area.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on July 03, 2012, 05:38:19 pm
Quote
Death Valley is the way it is due to tectonic activity of Goron Mountain. So why is there an off-shoot of Death Valley running all the way to the west separating the desert. In all other Zelda games that had a desert in Hyrule, it was always surrounded by a giant rock wall with a single small entrance.
Valleys can typically form due to erosion from water and glacial activity, not tectonic activity. That would be a mountain you're thinking of.   For this to work though, I should route part of the river through there OR we can say that the valley formed and then when it was deep enough, volcanic activity plugged the river up on that side. 

Quote
Well you have to imagine somethings to see the potential. And natural physics have water flowing from high to low. So this means that Zora's domain has to be higher then Lake Hylia, but that strokes a bit with the underground idea you presented. Unless Zora's Domain is on its own mountain.
No, it doesn't mean that.  It means that the source of water must be higher.  You must have misread.  The source of water at the top of a mountain can poor into the river as well as Zora's Domain.


Quote
No there isn't, just as much as it isn't wrong for Link to enter the lost woods before finishing the first dungeon in OOT. The cave feels really forced. There was nothing wrong with Link going through the Lon Lon Ranch area to reach the Minish woods before he actually had to do something in the Lon Lon Ranch area.
Point missed again...don't forget, you CAN'T access the full river in OoT without bombs due to the rocks.  Nothing wrong with entering there first, yet they still don't allow it.  Again, gameplay control.  If I remember right, LttP did something similar with the old man in the cave at Death Mt.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Shane on July 09, 2012, 05:20:59 am
Quote from: MG-Zero
I took a try at it.  Black lines are points of entry/exit between two locations.  Also, that yellow-brownish line in the valley of death is a wall for a cave.  I didn't really draw this to scale btw, I just wanted to figure a possible layout.

To get from Zora's Domain to the mountain, you'd go through a cave in the valley.  This is to keep the player from actually entering the valley before they're supposed to.

I think this makes some decent sense.  To the north is the rocky and arid geography.  Right next to it, underground in Zora's Domain starts the water supply which travels south to the swampy, foresty and wet places.

(I haven't read any previous comments (only some) so if I repeat what others said, my bad. =P)

My only complaint is that Lake Hyila feels too small... Other then that, I like it. =)

Quote from: Niek
In all other Zelda games that had a desert in Hyrule, it was always surrounded by a giant rock wall with a single small entrance.

Actually, FYI Twilight Princess had no entrance to the desert. =P
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: Zaeranos on July 09, 2012, 10:36:52 am
Quote from: Niek
In all other Zelda games that had a desert in Hyrule, it was always surrounded by a giant rock wall with a single small entrance.

Actually, FYI Twilight Princess had no entrance to the desert. =P
    ~ Shane
Actually, it had an entrance. The canon in Lake Hylia. But it didn't have an exit that did not need teleporting.
Title: Re: [REVISE] Overworld concept layout
Post by: MG-Zero on July 10, 2012, 03:39:02 pm
I'm moving my variation on this to another thread, keep this one to Niek's layout.

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