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Author Topic: Burning the flag of the USA in means of protest!  (Read 9816 times)

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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2006, 09:13:52 pm »
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You're pretty much not allowed to burn anything but a cigarrette or a cigar in public anyway.

Thats actually pretty true, also, i think it should be illigal for that, its pollution and unfair on us who want to keep our lungs.
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  • Elliott Parkinson
Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2006, 09:22:31 pm »
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The flags represent Morality, If you are out on a battle field there are alot of scary things happening friends dying, getting shot at, and so your moral drops slowly, but seeing a friendly flag flap makes you know your not alone, unless its an enemy flag then your pretty much buggered, but an allie flag will make you know that just because there is nobody in the same trench behind don't mean your gonna die, you have the power of a country and its army behind you, you may die, but others won't. Seeing a British flag burn saddens me and im an !@#$%, but it makes you think the people you have/are/will (be, been) fighting for are not worth fighting for.

I have no idea what the hell i have just typed!!!
This is more of a domestic issue than a faraway war one.  People in war take just as much pride in their flag as they do their gun.  People in war view things differently, and a flag to them represents feelings of being home.  To someone at home, the flag does not have that purpose.  As long as burning the flag is not meant to directly invoke people to violence, then it is OK.  And by directly, I mean doing it in real view and not seen through a television.  Because if it is on a TV, then it can be avoided by changing the channel.

People can really burn anything so long as it can be controlled. 
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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2006, 09:24:55 pm »
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You think that you would have gotten it by now, seeing as I posted at DSR that I was against them protesting at the soldiers' funerals.
Well, okay... I guess I really ought to study your posts at DSR before making such distasteful comment. ::)

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You cannot make a law making people respect the dead, you cannot.
You're trying too hard to be "logical", and in the very midst of that, you've left behind all ethics and means of reason (I know... it's almost an oxymoron).  And this is exactly why I'd trust 100 randomly selected people over 100 Harvard proffessors.  The "intellectual" type that THINK they know what's best for us.

Well: no thank you.  I'd prefer common sense.

Since when did "tolerance" become more important than ethics?  In most conversations that I've had with you, you've put "logic" above what really counts and that's common sense and a sense of ethical reasoning... not intellectuality (if that's even a word... I don't claim to be very smart when it comes to word usage and such).

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It is immoral, but not illegal.
It is now.  Bush signed the law a few months ago. :)

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Not specifically, but they shouldn't be prohibited from doing so unless it is endangering other people.

As I said, most places prohibit fires and so the people won't be able to burn it anyway. Just the same as they can't burn their extra pair of pants. However, if there is a place where fires are allowed and someone is able to burn their bed sheet then why can't they burn the flag?

As I said, in a nation of freedoms it is rediculous to probibit the (safe) expression of them.
Like shooting bald eagles, right?  If they weren't "endangered", would you want it legal to kill bald eagles?  And what about banning the pledge from schools?  Your statement puts more questions in my head, then it does answers.
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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2006, 09:35:15 pm »
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I now that you read my posts about the Phelps' at DSR because I posted them in either Extremist America or Best President and the fact that your analogy with the bald eagle is coming out of something that I posted there.  Because the bald eagles were protected due to the numbers of their population.  The founding fathers did not care so much about eagles anyway.  Franklin wanted the turkey, and yet we eat it on the day we stole things from Native Americans.  I eat and get nourishment from the American symbol (turkey not the eagle). 

You do not need logic to know that you cannot force people to respect things the way you do, and that is common sense.  In the Phelps' case they could not stop the families protesting, but the government could regulate it by not having it near grieving families the grieving families deserve privacy.  It is protecting the "victim" and that is right.

EDIT: Because you may not be able to find it, even though it is not hard to find
http://forum.dsrevolution.com/index.php/topic,6021.msg79048.html#msg79048
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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2006, 09:36:02 pm »
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It is now.  Bush signed the law a few months ago. Smiley

Thats just stupid, and sad, what a looser.

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Like shooting bald eagles, right?  If they weren't "endangered", would you want it legal to kill bald eagles?  And what about banning the pledge from schools?  Your statement puts more questions in my head, then it does answers.

Thats because they are endangered, our fault, because we let something go too far. Not because it happened, because their were no limits, there are already limits, a ban is 100% unecessary.
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  • Elliott Parkinson
Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2006, 09:39:59 pm »
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You do not need logic to know that you cannot force people to respect things the way you do, and that is common sense.  In the Phelps' case they could not stop the families protesting, but the government could regulate it by not having it near grieving families the grieving families deserve privacy.  It is protecting the "victim" and that is right
Sure.  I just say respect for the dead, and because it's different termanology that maybe religious people use, you go off attacking my word usage.

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I now that you read my posts about the Phelps' at DSR because I posted them in either Extremist America or Best President and the fact that your analogy with the bald eagle is coming out of something that I posted there.  Because the bald eagles were protected due to the numbers of their population.  The founding fathers did not care so much about eagles anyway.  Franklin wanted the turkey, and yet we eat it on the day we stole things from Native Americans.  I eat and get nourishment from the American symbol (turkey not the eagle). 
So you think that if the bald eagle wasn't endangered, we ought to have the right to kill it?  And how do you feel about the pledge? <_<
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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2006, 09:44:01 pm »
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I now that you read my posts about the Phelps' at DSR because I posted them in either Extremist America or Best President and the fact that your analogy with the bald eagle is coming out of something that I posted there.  Because the bald eagles were protected due to the numbers of their population.  The founding fathers did not care so much about eagles anyway.  Franklin wanted the turkey, and yet we eat it on the day we stole things from Native Americans.  I eat and get nourishment from the American symbol (turkey not the eagle). 
So you think that if the bald eagle wasn't endangered, we ought to have the right to kill it?  And how do you feel about the pledge? <_<

Right?? Right?? Im sorry, do you not know how the food chain works on this planet? One organism kills another, then eats it. Thats how we live, its not the right to kill, its an instinct. We kill it to eat, that particular bird must have been tasty. Just because we no longer kill daily, doesnt mean our society isnt!! How many chickens, turkeys, sheep, lamb, pigs die each day just to feed us? One hell of alot, and the same goes for plants, we are killing whole plants just to eat, whats more, we eat plants babies to eat (fruit) as well as animals babies (egg). So thats a pretty pointless statement.
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  • Elliott Parkinson
Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2006, 09:57:17 pm »
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MaJoRa, I was not talking to you.
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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2006, 10:37:21 pm »
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You do not need logic to know that you cannot force people to respect things the way you do, and that is common sense.  In the Phelps' case they could not stop the families protesting, but the government could regulate it by not having it near grieving families the grieving families deserve privacy.  It is protecting the "victim" and that is right
Sure.  I just say respect for the dead, and because it's different termanology that maybe religious people use, you go off attacking my word usage.

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I now that you read my posts about the Phelps' at DSR because I posted them in either Extremist America or Best President and the fact that your analogy with the bald eagle is coming out of something that I posted there.  Because the bald eagles were protected due to the numbers of their population.  The founding fathers did not care so much about eagles anyway.  Franklin wanted the turkey, and yet we eat it on the day we stole things from Native Americans.  I eat and get nourishment from the American symbol (turkey not the eagle). 
So you think that if the bald eagle wasn't endangered, we ought to have the right to kill it?  And how do you feel about the pledge? <_<
First off, I was not attacking your word usage over respecting the dead.  That law that was passed because of the Phelps' being dooshbags may make you think that it was out of respect for the dead, in truth, it is out of respect for the families and the loved ones of those the deceased knew.  Indirectly, yes, it does respect the dead, but only by directly giving the families respect through privacy.

About the eagle, not necessarily.  I personally do not think the bird should be killed, unless it overpopulates and kills a lot of its food chain, then it needs to die so the population does not starve, and for hunters to eat it would be a lot less than people killing for sport.  From an animal perspective though, the bald eagle does take away from some of their living space and food supply, and for people to make a symbol upset the ecosystem by not regulating it would be stupid and ideolistic.  I think that government should not encourage hunting of other birds by raising the fines on eagles because then more other birds will be killed and then the eagles will eventually overpopulate.  But, as I have said, the extra fines should be only allowed based on if it is in risk of extinction and not solely based on its symbol status.

I feel that the pledge is something that is OK in saying, but for schools to make you do it is wrong.  The phrase "under God" should not be in there and otherwise it is OK.  The phrase "under God" was added because Eisenhower thought that it would give the US a sense of humbleness or a slice of humble pie.  This however was mainly added because of the spread social and secularist governments around the world.

EDIT: wikipedia is funny.  Did you know that the old way, the Bellamy salute to the flag was somewhat of a precursor to the Nazi salute.  Try Nazi saluting the flag at school and bring this up, your teacher will !@#$% their pants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1892_Pledge_of_Allegiance2.jpg
« Last Edit: July 18, 2006, 10:40:31 pm by 4Sword »
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Swoftu

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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2006, 03:44:01 am »
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Like shooting bald eagles, right?  If they weren't "endangered", would you want it legal to kill bald eagles?

I really don't understand how Killing something = Burning a piece of cloth. How exactly does this analogy work? American flags are a dime a dozen, how exactly would they be 'endangered'? (not to mention that they aren't even living.) You're just grasping at straws.
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tippz

Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2006, 04:45:33 am »
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Like shooting bald eagles, right?  If they weren't "endangered", would you want it legal to kill bald eagles?

I really don't understand how Killing something = Burning a piece of cloth. How exactly does this analogy work? American flags are a dime a dozen, how exactly would they be 'endangered'? (not to mention that they aren't even living.) You're just grasping at straws.

Took the words out of my mouth. Thanks.
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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2006, 02:53:38 pm »
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Like shooting bald eagles, right?  If they weren't "endangered", would you want it legal to kill bald eagles?

I really don't understand how Killing something = Burning a piece of cloth. How exactly does this analogy work? American flags are a dime a dozen, how exactly would they be 'endangered'? (not to mention that they aren't even living.) You're just grasping at straws.
The analogy works in the respect that both could be forms of protest, and the question is it's legality.  It's legal to kill most kinds of animals with some sort of liscence.  So my question is if we shouldn't impose our protection of national "symbolism" on people, should we make it legal to kill bald eagles given they ever are plentiful enough?

Sure, if we had just stuck to debating "burning the flag", the analogy didn't work, but then we started bringing up terms like respect, "freedom", etc.
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Swoftu

Super Fighting Robot
Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2006, 05:46:11 pm »
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Like shooting bald eagles, right?  If they weren't "endangered", would you want it legal to kill bald eagles?

I really don't understand how Killing something = Burning a piece of cloth. How exactly does this analogy work? American flags are a dime a dozen, how exactly would they be 'endangered'? (not to mention that they aren't even living.) You're just grasping at straws.
The analogy works in the respect that both could be forms of protest, and the question is it's legality.  It's legal to kill most kinds of animals with some sort of liscence.  So my question is if we shouldn't impose our protection of national "symbolism" on people, should we make it legal to kill bald eagles given they ever are plentiful enough?

Sure, if we had just stuck to debating "burning the flag", the analogy didn't work, but then we started bringing up terms like respect, "freedom", etc.

What? We don't kill eagles because they're usually endangered, and there's really no reason to hunt them. Also, if you're going to go by that logic, why do people still fish for Walleye, even though it's Minnesota's state fish?

And how exactly are you going to compare killing eagles to burning a piece of cloth? It's 2 radically different scenarios. A flag is nonliving, and would have basically no effect on the environment.
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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2006, 05:58:17 pm »
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And how exactly are you going to compare killing eagles to burning a piece of cloth? It's 2 radically different scenarios. A flag is nonliving, and would have basically no effect on the environment.
If you haven't noticed, we've moved on to talking about protesting, not specifically just the flag burning.  True, I am drawing similarities, but I'm not saying they're the same thing.  I was addressing the form of logic used to justify flag burning... not flag burning in itself.

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why do people still fish for Walleye, even though it's Minnesota's state fish?
But I'm talking about NATIONAL symbols.  IE. it's not illegal to pick sego lilly outside of Utah... but inside, I do believe it is.
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tippz

Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2006, 06:22:13 pm »
Actually, you *can't* kill most things. There are seasons when you can kill some animals, but most are a no. However, if bald eagles weren't endangered and there was a demand for a hunting season then by all means we should be able to shoot them.
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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2006, 06:26:37 pm »
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Eh, you win that one... I have a huge flaw in my argument.
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Source

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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2006, 09:35:34 pm »
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I think burning the flag should be considered an act of treason. Period.

That is all.
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The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone thought to themselves "You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire." - George Carlin

(!@#$%)

Hear the haunting words (They'll find you alone)
lost children with no heart are crying (Turning their hearts into stone)
and you're the lost mother they're calling
Go now, run and hide (seek more than vengeance)
I hear them crying at night (your pain is their satisfaction)
outside when the planets are falling (for the rest of time)
They want to feel and know you hear them (Go now, run and hide)

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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2006, 10:55:56 pm »
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Well, the thing is that it's not unconstitutional to ban it.  At the same time it's not neccessarily unconstitutional to keep it.

Which is why I take the side I do :)
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Pyru

Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2006, 10:58:58 pm »
I think no-one should give a !@#$% whether someone burns a flag or a large piece of cloth attatched to a pole (wait, they're the same thing? :O).

Y'know why? It's a symbol. Just that. Why give a big hooplah about symbols? They own the flag, don't they? I don't give a !@#$% when people cut down their own bodhi trees...

If, on the other hand, it endangers other people/other people's property, yeah. But don't make it a seperate offence for the flag.
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Re: Burning the flag of the USA in means of prot...
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2006, 11:01:44 pm »
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I think no-one should [care]
Well, I personally don't want to tell other people what they should think, but I do think that it's wrong personally, and I'd like it if it was against the law :)
« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 11:12:23 pm by 2awesome4apossum »
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