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[2awesome4apossum]

2awesome4apossum

Justification for bad things in the name of "rel...

This debate was inspired by an old email I recieved from iammie123 (remember him?  it'd be really awesome if he ever came back).  He was seemingly against religion (at the time of this email), because of it being used to justify terrible things.

You see it with terrorists, you see it with the Crusades, etc., etc.

So the debate lies in the idea of that making religion bad.  I would argue it does more good than harm, and that the Crusades are not justifyable, and are a simple hungry power group of radical Christians that used God as an excuse.

And if religion causes all sorts of these kind of problems: is it JUST religion?  Let's look at Hitler: he was a Darwinist.  Darwinism has been used by twisted people to use it to back up their racism "scientifically".  So Darwinism's had it's fair share of problem-causing.

My opinion lies in the idea that: religions don't cause crimes-- people do, and that most religions are meant to build faith, and are in the interest of the common good.  I'd say that they do far more good than harm.  They do good and service on a daily basis!  It's all the small things that count.  However: what good does athiesm do?  Not to bash athiests, because you have the right to believe that God doesn't exist... but what good does it do you and others?

[Pyru]

Pyru

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

People who do bad things do bad things; people who justify them in any way are off their rockers.

It doesn't matter if it's religion or anything. But when people go against their religion, then use their religion to justify their actions are hypocrits. People who kill and then say they're doing it in God's name?

In fact, I don't agree with those who say they're Christian and yet will willing become soldiers and kill people. According to their religion, it is morally undefendable... so, either they're in ignorance (or ignoring their religion) or they just don't care.

[2awesome4apossum]

2awesome4apossum

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

In fact, I don't agree with those who say they're Christian and yet will willing become soldiers and kill people. According to their religion, it is morally undefendable... so, either they're in ignorance (or ignoring their religion) or they just don't care.

No, no, no... "thou shalt not kill", while was a very literal law in the law of moses (albeit their law compelled them to stone those who broke the commandments), the law of moses was abolished with Christ, so now it's not "thou shalt not kill", but much more expansive than that.

[Source]

Source

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

In fact, I don't agree with those who say they're Christian and yet will willing become soldiers and kill people.

Killing for the hell of it is bad. The Bible never says that killing to defend is a bad thing.

My opinion lies in the idea that: religions don't cause crimes-- people do

And all God's people said "Amen." Cronian among them. I must sig-quote that.

The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone thought to themselves "You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire." - George Carlin

(!@#$%)

Hear the haunting words (They'll find you alone)
lost children with no heart are crying (Turning their hearts into stone)
and you're the lost mother they're calling
Go now, run and hide (seek more than vengeance)
I hear them crying at night (your pain is their satisfaction)
outside when the planets are falling (for the rest of time)
They want to feel and know you hear them (Go now, run and hide)

• 

[4Sword]

4Sword

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

First off, Darwinism is not a religion.  So, do not compare it with one.  Second, just because some people take ideas and warp it to fit their agenda does not make the original idea bad.  It is kind of like entropy; it was good, it was just bound to go wrong when people misunderstood/took advantage of it.  A better example is Islamic fascism and saying that it is right to kill any non-believer and that you get rewarded for it.

[Scooternew]

Scooternew

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

2a4p, you couldn't have said it more perfectly. Honestly - like that was so well said. Ever seen Dogma? It preaches a similar message. People tend to get so caught up in religion that they loose focus of the original point. (There ARE religions though that say "kill the infadels". Either way, religion is supposed to promote peace and faith and structure, not war. God (or I think) would never want his name used in torture, killing, terrorism. But similarly, religion doesn't "do" good - it is again the people, who do good things in the name or religion. Which is good, because they are following what the original point of their religion is anyway.

However: what good does athiesm do?  Not to bash athiests, because you have the right to believe that God doesn't exist... but what good does it do you and others?

I hope you don't hate atheists - but either way, it can be viewed as good, bad, or neither, just like any religion. You could always say that atheists don't feel the need to blindly follow what's told to them, and they are peaceful and don't fight in the name of God. They hold themselves up to a high moral standard not because they are told to, but because they choose to. Or, you could also say the opposite - that not having faith is bad. Blah blah blah. Or neither. It dpeends on your view of atheism.

[Source]

Source

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

Here's my question: why do we judge people by their beliefs? For example, I was banned from a forum once because I stated that I didn't believe in Bigfoot! I was banned from another forum simply because I was a Christian! We have different beliefs yes, but screw them! I don't care if you're athiest, muslim, or whatever. I judge people by thier actions, not their beliefs. With that said, I'm off to eat my burritos.

The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone thought to themselves "You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire." - George Carlin

(!@#$%)

Hear the haunting words (They'll find you alone)
lost children with no heart are crying (Turning their hearts into stone)
and you're the lost mother they're calling
Go now, run and hide (seek more than vengeance)
I hear them crying at night (your pain is their satisfaction)
outside when the planets are falling (for the rest of time)
They want to feel and know you hear them (Go now, run and hide)

• 

[FISSURE]

FISSURE

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

People like to base their decisions on religion, their actions on it etc.

Athiests don't really follow a religion so they can base their actions and such on their own free will. Not on what wouldn't get them sinned into hell

[Dantztron 3030]

Dantztron 3030

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

Religion is fine. People who twist religion for their own purposes (i.e. Osama bin Laden, Jerry Falwell, etc.) suck. A lot. That's the story.

well i dont have that system and it is very hard to care about everything when you are single

[Source]

Source

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

I agree with Knivu.

Need I remind people of Columbine? Both Dillain and Eric were athiests, and killed all those people simply because they were not athiests. Now, I'm not insulting athiests, but that is WAY to extreme, and is just as bad as 9/11.

The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone thought to themselves "You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire." - George Carlin

(!@#$%)

Hear the haunting words (They'll find you alone)
lost children with no heart are crying (Turning their hearts into stone)
and you're the lost mother they're calling
Go now, run and hide (seek more than vengeance)
I hear them crying at night (your pain is their satisfaction)
outside when the planets are falling (for the rest of time)
They want to feel and know you hear them (Go now, run and hide)

• 

[FISSURE]

FISSURE

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

You could always say that atheists don't feel the need to blindly follow what's told to them, and they are peaceful...

Not to get too off topic...I'm completely fine with athiests. I have absolutely nothing against peaceful athiests, but I don't think you can say athiests in general are peaceful. There are many athiests who don't want equal rights in religious freedom, but want religion (Christianity mostly) to die. Those are the athiests that I do have a problem with.

There are probably some christians who want the same for their religion, some muslims, etc.

[Source]

Source

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

You could always say that atheists don't feel the need to blindly follow what's told to them, and they are peaceful...

Not to get too off topic...I'm completely fine with athiests. I have absolutely nothing against peaceful athiests, but I don't think you can say athiests in general are peaceful. There are many athiests who don't want equal rights in religious freedom, but want religion (Christianity mostly) to die. That's not peacefulness.

Aye, me too. I knew one like that in highschool. He'd hit me for no apparent reason. You know, discriminating against a religion is just as bad as racial discrimination, but no one seems to care. That's not cool.

You could always say that atheists don't feel the need to blindly follow what's told to them, and they are peaceful...

Not to get too off topic...I'm completely fine with athiests. I have absolutely nothing against peaceful athiests, but I don't think you can say athiests in general are peaceful. There are many athiests who don't want equal rights in religious freedom, but want religion (Christianity mostly) to die. Those are the athiests that I do have a problem with.

There are probably some christians who want the same for their religion, some muslims, etc.

I have had urges to end Islam, mainly when that islamic guy from work keeps cussing at me and my religion. I swear, I'm going to beat him with a rubber hose or something...

The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone thought to themselves "You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire." - George Carlin

(!@#$%)

Hear the haunting words (They'll find you alone)
lost children with no heart are crying (Turning their hearts into stone)
and you're the lost mother they're calling
Go now, run and hide (seek more than vengeance)
I hear them crying at night (your pain is their satisfaction)
outside when the planets are falling (for the rest of time)
They want to feel and know you hear them (Go now, run and hide)

• 

[Benito]

Benito

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

People who do bad things do bad things; people who justify them in any way are off their rockers.

It doesn't matter if it's religion or anything. But when people go against their religion, then use their religion to justify their actions are hypocrits. People who kill and then say they're doing it in God's name?

But those people do not belive what they are doing is bad, from my perspective morals are fairly relative, some stick out such as murder being wrong but thats mostly because people don't generaly want to be killed and most other fairly universal morals seem to follow this idea of things people generaly wouldn't want others to do to them.

Are they really using religion to justify their "bad" actions? I'm sure mostly they don't think they need justifying as they view them as good or right or at least in the possitive.

I ♥ Open Girlfriend (What!? I didn't add this.. must have been Solly!)

• 

[2awesome4apossum]

2awesome4apossum

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

Killing for the hell of it is bad. The Bible never says that killing to defend is a bad thing.

Well, Pyru was probably referencing to "thou shalt not kill", so I addressed that and how it's not even applicable in the same sense any longer

And all God's people said "Amen." Cronian among them. I must sig-quote that.

Hehe... thanks for that!  It's nice to see someone who sigs a quote of mine for a purpose other than making fun of me. 

*coughVashandMax*

First off, Darwinism is not a religion.  So, do not compare it with one.

Your point flew right over my head:

And if religion causes all sorts of these kind of problems: is it JUST religion?

Ever seen Dogma?

Yep, sacreligious, but quite funny.

I hope you don't hate atheists

I EAT THEM >:O!  But seriously: I don't... they can be as good as any Christian.

You could always say that atheists don't feel the need to blindly follow

I'd say it's also true in the case of Christianity.  Some people blindly follow, but most people prefer to keep their eyes open. [/analogy]

Or, you could also say the opposite - that not having faith is bad. Blah blah blah. Or neither. It dpeends on your view of atheism.

Well, I'm just wondering the point of athiesim.  Seriously: what good does it do you?  I mean, it's fine not to believe in God, but why not take a more non-commital approach such as many people who claim to be "agnostic" do?  (Certainly: I don't believe it's actually achievable to be agnostic, but who am I to judge?)  That way you can at least keep in mind the high moral standards that many religious folk have.

I don't care if you're athiest, muslim, or whatever. I judge people by thier actions, not their beliefs. With that said, I'm off to eat my burritos.

Well said!

But those people do not belive what they are doing is bad, from my perspective morals are fairly relative, some stick out such as murder being wrong but thats mostly because people don't generaly want to be killed and most other fairly universal morals seem to follow this idea of things people generaly wouldn't want others to do to them.

And this is what a darwinist would have one believe.  Morals are relative: act on instinct: that's fine.  After all: it's genetics and survival of the fittest!

Which is another reason why I can't understand athiesm.  Rape is only wrong, because it's prohibited by law?  :x

No wonder there was that push for beastality in the 80s.  Again, I'm not intending to bash athiesm, but I can't-- for the life of me-- understand why you'd want to be an athiest.

[stickman]

stickman

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

Justifying things through religion is something Leaders do to manipulate fools.

-The Pope called for the Crusades, Knights went on Crusades in order to retake the Holy Land, But the real purpose was the Pope wanted to increase his influence and to do that he manipulated the weak minded and adventerous into seeking the Holy Land if he gained the holy land his power would increase and he would become wealthier and would forever be remeber as the Pope that reclaimed the Holy Land

-Suicide/Homocide Bombers are the  lowest level terrerists the ones that through their religion can be led to believe that they can sacrifice themselves in the name of Allah and get seventy vergins when they die, terrerist leaders never and planners never execute the plan they send the feeble minded that were raised to believe that the West is evil and killing the west is the only option. the terrerists that kill themselves die for a cause that they beleive in, the people that send them to die DON'T.

[4Sword]

4Sword

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

I have said this in the past and I am going to stick by it, religion and morals are not the same thing.  Perpetuating that they are does not make them the same.

About me saying Darwinism is not a religion, it is not, it is an ideology based on scientific interpretation and not religious stories.    What you did in your original post was put your passage about Darwinism between two relgious things and made it sound like a religion by bringing up Hitler as an example.  I do not know if you worded it right, but I am interpreting what you say precisely and not through beer googles.   

Maybe I would have understood your quote if it was: "And if religion causes all sorts of these kinds of problems, is it just a religion that causes problems?"  Because it could also be interpreted as: "And if religion causes all sorts of these kinds of problems: is it a just (as in justified) religion?".  Your emphasis took away from your point.

[Source]

Source

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

Suicide/Homocide Bombers are the  lowest level terrerists the ones that through their religion can be led to believe that they can sacrifice themselves in the name of Allah and get seventy vergins when they die...

By this, do you mean that Suicide Bombers are dirty, horny sex people? Eww...

they can be as good as any Christian.

True. I know a guy on another forum named Frozen...he's athiest, but he's a pretty cool guy. I think most people look at athiests as cruel because some athiests have set that stereotype. (Madilyn Murray O'Hair, anyone?)

I hate stereotypes.

The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone thought to themselves "You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire." - George Carlin

(!@#$%)

Hear the haunting words (They'll find you alone)
lost children with no heart are crying (Turning their hearts into stone)
and you're the lost mother they're calling
Go now, run and hide (seek more than vengeance)
I hear them crying at night (your pain is their satisfaction)
outside when the planets are falling (for the rest of time)
They want to feel and know you hear them (Go now, run and hide)

• 

[2awesome4apossum]

2awesome4apossum

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

What you did in your original post was put your passage about Darwinism between two relgious things and made it sound like a religion by bringing up Hitler as an example.

tsk, tsk... I was making the point that people blame religion for bad things, and I was saying "is it JUST religion?"

[4Sword]

4Sword

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

Meh.  Whatever.  Go ahead and quote part of what I said acting like the two other paragraphs are just there for filler.  What you said could be misinterpreted.  I read and thought based on the word "just" and its various meanings.

As I have said, morals (I should have said ethics; morals mean good and evil while ethics is right and wrong) and religion are not the same.  Humans should never do things that contradict ethics because they think that it is just.  Only their god is allowed to act badly if it is for the right reason, and this is because their god is all-knowing and omnipotent.  Humans do not have the knowledge nor the wisdom to act badly in the name of religion.

There is somewhat of a contradiction in that though.  Sometimes people have to choose between the lesser of two evils (i.e. Americans killing Nazis or letting the Nazis kill Jews without retribution).  Religion only allows these because they are a means to move forward.

[Benito]

Benito

Re: Justification for bad things in the name of ...

But those people do not believe what they are doing is bad, from my perspective morals are fairly relative, some stick out such as murder being wrong but thats mostly because people don't generally want to be killed and most other fairly universal morals seem to follow this idea of things people generally wouldn't want others to do to them.

And this is what a darwinist would have one believe.  Morals are relative: act on instinct: that's fine.  After all: it's genetics and survival of the fittest!

Which is another reason why I can't understand athiesm.  Rape is only wrong, because it's prohibited by law?  :x

No wonder there was that push for beastality in the 80s.  Again, I'm not intending to bash athiesm, but I can't-- for the life of me-- understand why you'd want to be an athiest.

No as morals are relative rape may only be wrong to some because its prohibited by law, others believe it is wrong because of the morals they built themselves. Maybe they don't like hurting people and respect them maybe its simply because they fear if they are willing to do so others might do so to them.

An atheist has the same degree as faith as a religious person, there is no way to know god is there or is not there, so they must have faith in the nonexistence of god. I personly am agnostic as I know I cant know either way, well not at the moment, come judgement day and sure I'll become a Christian.. why doubt if its right in front of you .

I wonder if the religious need the fear of god to make them 'good' people..

I ♥ Open Girlfriend (What!? I didn't add this.. must have been Solly!)

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