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Author Topic: GOP screws Evangelicals?  (Read 3874 times)

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GOP screws Evangelicals?
« on: October 25, 2007, 11:24:15 pm »
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Forgive my generalizations, because there's going to be a freak of a lot of them:

The GOP, the underdog, in this race is doing horrible things to one of it's base groups-- the Evangelical Christians.  It's odd that they'd already be at a disadvantage (note: it's a rarity in history where a single party will hold both houses of congress AND the presidency-- yes, that's why we talk about the genious of Karl Rove), but they're certainly crippling themselves far worse than they need to be.
 
The "gay marriage" thing is important, but not election-worthy important to Evangelical voters.  Generally, it's the abortion issue that tends to sway such voters in primary elections.  The one thing that you have to keep in mind is that the Evangelical-crowd equivocates pro-choice with Satan, so voting democrat is out of the questions.  It's just *which* Republican they want to throw their support to.
 
Giuliani's easily out of it.  He's pro-choice and admits it.  Every time he's asked about what he'll do about abortion he says "nothing", but will usually point out that even if he was pro-life he couldn't do anything even if he wanted to completely disreguard the constitution (someone better watch out for the Giuliani guy, one of these days he's liable to say something crazy)...
 
Mitt Romney is a MORMON.  The Evangelical crowd isn't going to want to vote Mormon ("they're not real Christians!"-- I blame the education levels).  And if that wasn't enough, he used to be pro-choice until a fairly recent election-friendly flip-flop.  In attempt to get this out of the way, he went to speak about it and why it makes more sense to be pro-life.  This was nothing more than an attempt to get the audience to agree with all the points he makes and therefore get them to like him better.
 
The Evangelical's both in the polls and the press like Fred Thompson more.  But this boring, old, crusty, unattractive heck entered the race far too late and might die out of boringness before too much longer anyway.
 
The Evangelical's (smarter than they look), realize this and they're trying SO hard... they're trying so, so, so hard to support Romney.  Because they want a shot at this presidency thing in '08.  But Romney, a mix between JFK and John Kerry makes this a bit hard for them.  There's always something about the Romney speeches that seems insincere.  Perhaps it's the lack of emotion in his voice, or perhaps it's because he's busy trying to appear "politically correct" (which term from this point on will now be reffered to as "socially acceptable") that he won't tell you much about what he'll actually do other than it'll be conservative and he'll attempt to do it in a way that's appeasing to both Republicans and Democrats.  The latest is that he'll appoint judges (if any die while he's in his four year term... a feat I consider to be unlikely) who can overturn Roe v. Wade.  I hope no one actually believes this...
 
(No seriously.  Next time you're at Borders, go look up his book on how he won the Olympics and made Utah a success.)
 
The latest was when Romney said that he's not going to "try and distance [him]self in any way, shape or form from [his] faith".  He also added that he wouldn't take input from religious leaders (see: JFK).  So he's trying to juggle it all.  But he's going to do much better in the primaries than Thompson, so it looks like he's the Evangelical's best bet.  Although when Mormanism is being reffered to as "a cult" in the national media, you've got to wonder what they'll end up doing.

P.S. Upon reflection, I need to start giving McCain more credit than I have been.  I feel safe enough to say that I don't need to worry about Ron Paul, but McCain started running a DANG good ad that could help him a lot...
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 02:13:31 am »
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Political parties manipulating people for easy votes?

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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 03:55:41 am »
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I disagree with your stereotyping of Evangelicals. I'm a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, a church that leans more to the left than the right side of politics (much like myself). We're very accepting of all types of people. We allow women and open homosexuals priesthood. We do not advocate abortion, but do however generally believe that there are certain situations in which abortion is morally acceptable. We are open to people of all ethnic backgrounds and sexual orientations. We're not as close-minded as the group you seem to be referring to, yet we're still an Evangelical church.

Regardless of this, I believe that people should not vote because of their religious beliefs alone, but because of their own. Is it a sin to disagree with your church on a social issue? I don't think so. I think people need to decide for themselves what to believe, and examine each candidate individually. Voting for who you're told to vote to completely defeats the purpose of voting and democracy.
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Mamoruanime

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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 04:10:56 am »
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hmm... I'm very Christian and my political views are split right down the middle lol... But I also dont think that the GOP has screwed over evangelicals either o.0 Although, I like Giuliani... I'm against abortion, however, I think Giuliani has what it takes to get the job done; but I also dont think his views on abortion makes him a bad candidate either; just because he has one view that contradicts the typical GOP standpoint doesnt rule him out as a cantidate. Its like Hilary Clinton being for the war back in the day *shrugs*.

But... I also don't believe someone should make a political thread without being at least semi objective to the left or right; political neutrality promotes the best impact when discussing issues on left or right :P
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 04:11:32 am »
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I disagree with your stereotyping of Evangelicals. I'm a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, a church that leans more to the left than the right side of politics (much like myself). We're very accepting of all types of people. We allow women and open homosexuals priesthood. We do not advocate abortion, but do however generally believe that there are certain situations in which abortion is morally acceptable. We are open to people of all ethnic backgrounds and sexual orientations. We're not as close-minded as the group you seem to be referring to, yet we're still an Evangelical church.

Regardless of this, I believe that people should not vote because of their religious beliefs alone, but because of their own. Is it a sin to disagree with your church on a social issue? I don't think so. I think people need to decide for themselves what to believe, and examine each candidate individually. Voting for who you're told to vote to completely defeats the purpose of voting and democracy.

Man...me and you are such Obamites.
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well i dont have that system and it is very hard to care about everything when you are single
Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2007, 04:27:01 am »
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I agree with you.

It doesn't matter who gets the nomination, I'm fairly sure the GOP will split after this election.

The democrats are nearly crumbling too, but the GOP has weakened so much over the last few months. Look at the amount of people who will *not* be running for re-election, some key players, some good strong republicans are not going to be running again for re election. That alone shows me the GOP has a very big weak spot.

I also heard that the Evangelicals will probably run their own candidate if Romney or Guiliani gets in.

I'm not too fond of McCain, you accuse the other two of flip-flopping but McCain is a very moderate individual. I used to like the guy to be honest, but hes been hugging too close to the guy no one really cares for anymore (or as I like to call him Mr. 24%). That worries me, people want change, you can't disagree there at all.

My favorite person running is Paul, between both sides. I don't care about his views on abortion or gay marriage, he brings the idea of reform, thats what people want, and hes really getting noticed for that. He wont get the nomination, but when the GOP explodes, there are going to be a lot of independent canidates, he'll be one of them for sure.

(I want to make a note I *am* -not- a republican, or a democrat. I tend to be liberal on all if not most issues, but both parties disgust me, and what we need right now is a leader who can bring proper reform to the republic before it turns into a big pile of ash).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 04:30:55 am by Andrew »
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2007, 05:11:21 am »
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You all should just vote for the best candidate, Stephen Colbert.
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2007, 03:31:31 pm »
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I disagree with your stereotyping of Evangelicals. I'm a member of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, a church that leans more to the left than the right side of politics (much like myself). We're very accepting of all types of people. We allow women and open homosexuals priesthood. We do not advocate abortion, but do however generally believe that there are certain situations in which abortion is morally acceptable. We are open to people of all ethnic backgrounds and sexual orientations. We're not as close-minded as the group you seem to be referring to, yet we're still an Evangelical church.

Regardless of this, I believe that people should not vote because of their religious beliefs alone, but because of their own. Is it a sin to disagree with your church on a social issue? I don't think so. I think people need to decide for themselves what to believe, and examine each candidate individually. Voting for who you're told to vote to completely defeats the purpose of voting and democracy.
Oh, and I completely agree.  But look at the primary states and look what the vocal majority of evangelical voters are doing.  Look at what their leaders are saying.

A stereotype isn't saying "this is what all evangelicals are like".  It's not even saying "this is what MOST evangelicals are like".  But the fact of the matter is that most evangelicals vote Republican.  And that's where my stereotype comes from.  (Sorry if I offended you as well, I didn't mean to if you were.)

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hmm... I'm very Christian and my political views are split right down the middle lol... But I also dont think that the GOP has screwed over evangelicals either o.0 Although, I like Giuliani... I'm against abortion, however, I think Giuliani has what it takes to get the job done; but I also dont think his views on abortion makes him a bad candidate either; just because he has one view that contradicts the typical GOP standpoint doesnt rule him out as a cantidate. Its like Hilary Clinton being for the war back in the day *shrugs*.

But... I also don't believe someone should make a political thread without being at least semi objective to the left or right; political neutrality promotes the best impact when discussing issues on left or right
If you're talking about my "anti-Republican sentiment", you'd actually be wrong.  Because I'm an ultra-conservative that really hates his selection of Presidential candidates, but really likes Rudy Giuliani.  However, Rudy's the ONLY Republican candidate I like.

I never thought I'd say this, but I'd vote Hillary over Thompson and Romney.

So I'm not giving this a liberal slant, because I'm the most conservative Mormon you'll ever meet.  I just don't like Mitt Romney.  I'm a self-proclaimed ultra-conservative Republican.

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I also heard that the Evangelicals will probably run their own candidate if Romney or Guiliani gets in.
Yes, that's the threat, but I don't think it has any substance or much of a following to it... I don't think they'll vote for their own candidate if they actually get one.

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It doesn't matter who gets the nomination, I'm fairly sure the GOP will split after this election.
I disagree here, but I think you'll see an upsurge in Democrats, and normally conservative states such as Utah, will find more of a democratic base (much like we had before the 70s came along).

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I'm not too fond of McCain, you accuse the other two of flip-flopping but McCain is a very moderate individual. I used to like the guy to be honest, but hes been hugging too close to the guy no one really cares for anymore (or as I like to call him Mr. 24%). That worries me, people want change, you can't disagree there at all.
I don't like McCain, either.  At this point, he's trying to play politics on most issues, but with the war on terror, he and Mr. 24% (who actually had 90% approval ratings post 9/11 and close to 80% approval ratings near to the Iraq war) are trying to give the same old message of "stay the course, but with McCain you can stay better, because he was  a POW".  But I don't give McCain much credit, because his base lacks the neo-conservatives (who like Giuliani better... and I just found this out yesterday... irony), so I don't think he'll do very well at all.  I think we'll see Romney and Giuliani have a showdown.
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2007, 07:27:17 pm »
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Being a Neo-Conservative has nothing to do with your political status, in my opinion. From my view point, of what Mrs. Clinton likes to say and do, and her political stance on issues, she is neo-conservative by far.

Just to make a note about Mr. 24%. Our country was devastated, one could say, by the attacks that happened during Sept. 11th. There was shock and awe among almost every American who awoke that morning to see people falling from buildings, buildings falling to the ground. I didn't approve him before he won the election (quite frankly because he *didnt* win the election) but none the less, his approval rating is bound to go up (Gore's would have to -- as would have McCains, or anyone elses) because of the handling of the situation. There is a moment of faith in ones country where everyone pulls together and listens to what their leader says.

Upon Entering Iraq Bush had done the 'right thing' by going after the 'bad guys' (in Afghanistan) which is why his approval rating was still good and strong. Going into Iraq though, on false allegations (which they admit to) is another story all together.

On the subject of approval ratings, President Clinton's approval rating went *up* during his impeachment trial. http://www.pollingreport.com/clinton-.htm

In fact, looking specifically at the. Gallup/CNN/USA Today Poll (Since its by far the largest record keeping poll) His lowest approval rating was upon his election, with 48%.

If you look at Bush's approval rating (I heard the number 24 from somewhere, but I'm not seeing it on the latest Gallup polls -- whatever) its essentially the opposite of Clinton's, during any time Clinton was in office. (Comparing the Approval/disapprovals rating)

If I had to close my eyes and pick a republican, that isn't Ron Paul. I'd take Huckabee.

I find the dem's repulsive. Their approval rating is much lower than Bushs' (In congress that is).

Like I said, I think both parties are on the brink of self-destruction. Its happened in the past, we can't say it hasn't. America really needs a multi-party system, maybe we'll get a better chance at having one. (I know we have third-parties but we're classified as a two-party system).
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2007, 01:40:02 am »
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Political parties manipulating people for easy votes?

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I'm fairly sure the GOP will split after this election.

Looking through history, parties only split in times of major crisis that shook the nation. We're not in any kind of civil war or great depression here, there's no reason the GOP will split.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 01:41:36 am by BuffaloBurgers »
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EEE HUNG HUNG HA HA

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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2007, 09:51:42 am »
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I'm fairly sure the GOP will split after this election.

Looking through history, parties only split in times of major crisis that shook the nation. We're not in any kind of civil war or great depression here, there's no reason the GOP will split.

Yet. Economically speaking the United State isn't doing too hot. Tentions with Turkey are getting worse day by day. The Turkish government has said they plan on dealing with the PKK 'on their own' without assistance from the US. Guess who offered to help? Iran.

The IAEA (The UN Nuke Watchdog) warned the United States to work with Iran diplomatically before stirring the pot with any form of 'strike'. The head of the IAEA (not that it matters) is an Arabic guy, he won the Nobel Prize last year for his efforts at peace. If the United States attempts a strike in Iran, it will cause some massive problems (even more so economically). A lot of oil sources will be cut off entirely. Russia backs Iran, as does China.

Bush warned the other day if Iran doesn't cease and desist their 'nuclear ambitions' there may be 'World War Three'. He said this in a press conference.

I think the GOP has a damn good reason to *stray* from that opinion, as most Americans right now seem to not be agreeing too much with that opinion of his. I think thats where the party will split, I think thats why a lot of the more true republicans have cut and run so to speak. They can't defend someone who's actions are so absurd and are a insult to their party.
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Mamoruanime

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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2007, 09:58:11 am »
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I'm fairly sure the GOP will split after this election.

Looking through history, parties only split in times of major crisis that shook the nation. We're not in any kind of civil war or great depression here, there's no reason the GOP will split.

I agree; I highly doubt that the GOP would split, even if they were in fact shafting the majority of their fan base. I personally think that politics and religion should be 2 separate things (Mainly because theres not really a single political party that follows a true religious viewpoint; its a bunch of "This works for us. This doesn't. This does too. Well the good outweighs the bad so we're voting for them"). Zealots typically vote for a faction because it has a title that typically appeals to them, and I don't think thats right at all o.0... I think any voter should look at all candidates with an unbiased mentality, and exercise their right to vote properly... Okay I segwayed a bit <_<

But, regardless of how Bush handles the country, he ISNT a good representation of the GOP. "Every family has its black sheep" - cakefarts (in regards to being related to Cheney XD, but still appropriate here). I'll admit, I liked Bush in the beginning. Hell I even agreed with going into Iraq, and I still do agree with going into that country when we did. However I do not agree with it lasting since 2003. We should have been in there and outta there in less than 2 years. And this is why Bush is the black sheep of the GOP family :p Not many agree with being in there so long... A lot of Republicans believe strongly that we should have gone in, but ya know. You cant stay in too long or else you'll cum all over the place IMO. (sorry for the crudeness there but its true). AND since thats a widespread thought as well, its another reason I dont think the GOP will disband; in fact, I think it'll make the 2 parties come together a bit... But even the evangelicals wont leave the GOP even if they told them "Worshipping God is not allowed anywhere outside of your church!"; because again, its a zealots nature to follow what theyve been told without looking at the big pictue :\
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 09:59:54 am by Mamoruanime »
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2007, 05:29:03 pm »
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Being a Neo-Conservative has nothing to do with your political status, in my opinion. From my view point, of what Mrs. Clinton likes to say and do, and her political stance on issues, she is neo-conservative by far.
I have to disagree here.  She is not anywhere near aggressive enough to be accepted by any neocon I've heard of.  The neocons thought even Reagan wasn't aggresive enough.

And implied in my explanation of his high approval ratings, I included that 9/11 and war are reasons for his approval ratings to go up.  They had to.

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America really needs a multi-party system, maybe we'll get a better chance at having one.
Wouldn't that be difficult with our winner-take-all election system?  I remain skeptical.

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Yet. Economically speaking the United State isn't doing too hot.
We're doing really well economically, just severely pissed that the Euro is worth about $1.40 ;)

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Bush warned the other day if Iran doesn't cease and desist their 'nuclear ambitions' there may be 'World War Three'. He said this in a press conference.
I've got to be honest here: you're listening to the WRONG media sources.  The U.S. is going to attempt to resolve the situation with Iran diplomatically.  The media reports suggest that the Bush administration is more aggressive than he actually is (which neocons are severely upset about).  Just last week, I went to a lecture given by the Austrailian ambassador to the U.S. and he laughed off those reports saying they needed to get in touch with reality.
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2007, 06:31:09 pm »
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America really needs a multi-party system, maybe we'll get a better chance at having one.
Wouldn't that be difficult with our winner-take-all election system?  I remain skeptical.

Hell if I know, but if I remember correctly, at the present time, all seats in the Senate and Congress are held by the Republicans or the Democrats. No way that's right. In the UK, we at least have seats split between Labour, the Conservative Party, the Liberal Democrats, and various smaller parties, not to mention independents.

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Yet. Economically speaking the United State isn't doing too hot.
We're doing really well economically, just severely pissed that the Euro is worth about $1.40 ;)

It's not just the dollar's low value that's a problem (even though it's still potentially overvalued) - the US credit crunch, downturn in the housing market, huge balance of payments deficit, and fiscal deficit are all creating problems, and it looks like the whole thing's just gonna lead to a collapse in consumer confidence, causing a recession.
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2007, 06:59:23 pm »
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It's not just the dollar's low value that's a problem (even though it's still potentially overvalued) - the US credit crunch, downturn in the housing market, huge balance of payments deficit, and fiscal deficit are all creating problems, and it looks like the whole thing's just gonna lead to a collapse in consumer confidence, causing a recession.
We'll know more about what the government will do about it tomorrow after their little federal reserve board meeting.  And the main area of concern is, indeed, the housing market.  I'm on the side that thinks we can still save ourselves from a recession.
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2007, 07:29:47 pm »
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Lets get real, we've been in a recession for years. Our debt is worse than it has ever been. How can you *not* say we're in a recession, we have a nasty economic problem on our hands, and we continue to ignore it, pushing it off with credit, printing non-existent money and giving it to private companies to bail out the markets. (aka the Federal Reserve "assisting" companies). The entire system is built on credit, and when there is a mild, slight threat of the credit issue exploding, there is more than just a 'recession' on hand.
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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2007, 01:45:45 am »
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Hell if I know, but if I remember correctly, at the present time, all seats in the Senate and Congress are held by the Republicans or the Democrats. No way that's right. In the UK, we at least have seats split between Labour, the Conservative Party, the Liberal Democrats, and various smaller parties, not to mention independents.

As possum mentioned, America has a winner-take-all system, not a PR system. This means that there can only be two parties by human nature. It's impossible to have three viable parties with the way American elections work. Is it fair? Very. The multiple parties are just forced into being more general than in the UK.
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EEE HUNG HUNG HA HA

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Re: GOP screws Evangelicals?
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2007, 01:47:38 pm »
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Hell if I know, but if I remember correctly, at the present time, all seats in the Senate and Congress are held by the Republicans or the Democrats. No way that's right. In the UK, we at least have seats split between Labour, the Conservative Party, the Liberal Democrats, and various smaller parties, not to mention independents.

As possum mentioned, America has a winner-take-all system, not a PR system. This means that there can only be two parties by human nature. It's impossible to have three viable parties with the way American elections work. Is it fair? Very. The multiple parties are just forced into being more general than in the UK.

But there aren't just two parties in the USA, and there are independents, just as of the moment, not a single one holds a seat in either house of national government.

The system is a little more complicated than a "winner take all system" at the moment, since the opposition party still has a place in government, especially as, at the moment, the party with the majority is not the party that holds the presidency. They still have the power to create bills, draft legislation and pass laws, while the presidency only has the power of veto, which is fairly limited in scope.

I think I key problem in US politics is the bi-partisan nature; e.g. whenever one party says they're pro something, the other party retorts with "Well, we're anti that, then".
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