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Author Topic: Probabilites are non-sense.  (Read 8663 times)

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Fox

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Probabilites are non-sense.
« on: December 21, 2007, 09:55:09 pm »
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Alright, this continues the probability-discussion from:
http://www.zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=22701.msg250429#msg250429

Feel free to keep on discussing.
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Fox

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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2007, 10:01:22 pm »
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but then you're also saying that if you role a perfectly fair 6 sided dice, then the chance of it landing on a 1 is 50%, chance of it landing on a 2 is 50% etc. 50% for all sides?
if so, i think you broke logic and maths? O_o
You obviously didn't understand.

We have six options.
It lands on 1, it lands on 2, it lands on 3, it lands on 4, it lands on 5 or it lands on 6.

Every option has its OWN 50/50-probability.
It either lands on 1 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 2 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 3 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 4 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 5 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 6 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.

If it doesn't land on five out of the six, it HAS to be the remaining options.

You got it now? :3
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2007, 10:04:20 pm »
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I kindda understand.

Its, you either do or dont, right?
As in if theres 10 people you got to kill or they kill you, you dont have a 1 in 10 chance, you just do, or dont.
...Right?
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Fox

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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2007, 10:07:04 pm »
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I kindda understand.

Its, you either do or dont, right?
As in if theres 10 people you got to kill or they kill you, you dont have a 1 in 10 chance, you just do, or dont.
...Right?
You're my favourite member of ZFGC now. (Although the number of people was COMPLETELY irrelevant in this example lol. 8D)
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2007, 10:15:57 pm »
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lol i see
so we're talking about two COMPLETELY different things

the probility of one stand alone outcome happing either one way (it does happen) or the other (it doesnt) - it lands on a 1 or it doesnt. it lands on a 2 or it doenst etc
and then WHAT probilibty there is of that first outcome actually happening - it lands on a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, each with the same equal chance and so it landing on a 1 = 1/6

but i dont see how you can relate your one (the first one here) and the other one (the second one here) to the same thing and say only yours is right and the other should be disregarded? O_o
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 10:23:03 pm by hawthorneluke »
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2007, 10:20:59 pm »
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but then you're also saying that if you role a perfectly fair 6 sided dice, then the chance of it landing on a 1 is 50%, chance of it landing on a 2 is 50% etc. 50% for all sides?
if so, i think you broke logic and maths? O_o
You obviously didn't understand.

We have six options.
It lands on 1, it lands on 2, it lands on 3, it lands on 4, it lands on 5 or it lands on 6.

Every option has its OWN 50/50-probability.
It either lands on 1 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 2 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 3 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 4 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 5 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 6 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.

If it doesn't land on five out of the six, it HAS to be the remaining options.

You got it now? :3
Yes but isn't saying 1/6 probability just a simplified version of that? Yes you either do or you don't, but there is a lower chance something will happen, the more options there are. If there is a 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance the earth will explode you still must assume there is a greater chance the earth will not explode than it will.

I don't know, this is kind of confusing me. I'll leave this to the intelligent people...:(
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2007, 10:25:12 pm »
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But isn't the 1/10000-whatever is basically a simplified version of the 'either this or this' which could possibly be broken down to an atomic level otherwise, which only a really powerful computer could handle? XD

After all, when you are walking down the stairs think of every minute shift which could or could not happen which could lead on to another and so-on until the result is falling head-over-heels into the floor. Even if all these are 50/50, the overall effect of falling is not.
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Fox

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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2007, 10:30:14 pm »
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Before I discuss any further - I don't mean there's a 50% chance of things happening or not. I say it either happens or it doesn't. And in order to not write that sentence all over again, I keep saying "fifty-fifty" (50/50) instead.

lol i see
so we're talking about two COMPLETELY different things

the probility of one stand alone outcome happing either one way (it does happen) or the other (it doesnt) - it lands on a 1 or it doesnt. it lands on a 2 or it doenst etc
and then WHAT probilibty there is of that first outcome actually happening - it lands on a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6, each with the same equal chance and so it landing on a 1 = 1/6

but i dont see how you can relate your one (the first one here) and the other one (the second one here) to the same thing and say only yours is right and the other should be disregarded? O_o
You know what binaries are? I know you do. :3 And those actually exist. And "my one" is like binaries. It either happens or it doesn't. Everything in our dimension is based on binaries, if you will.

That is why I won't try to tell you why the explanation you've given in that post is wrong, again.

Probabilities are a thing in the people's head. The future can't be predicted. Period.

but then you're also saying that if you role a perfectly fair 6 sided dice, then the chance of it landing on a 1 is 50%, chance of it landing on a 2 is 50% etc. 50% for all sides?
if so, i think you broke logic and maths? O_o
You obviously didn't understand.

We have six options.
It lands on 1, it lands on 2, it lands on 3, it lands on 4, it lands on 5 or it lands on 6.

Every option has its OWN 50/50-probability.
It either lands on 1 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 2 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 3 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 4 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 5 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 6 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.

If it doesn't land on five out of the six, it HAS to be the remaining options.

You got it now? :3
Yes but isn't saying 1/6 probability just a simplified version of that? Yes you either do or you don't, but there is a lower chance something will happen, the more options there are. If there is a 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance the earth will explode you still must assume there is a greater chance the earth will not explode than it will.

I don't know, this is kind of confusing me. I'll leave this to the intelligent people...:(
I guess, but what does that help you? If there is a 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance the earth will explode, that is a prediction. Nothing definitive. Nothing EXACT. Will it tell you that the earth will not explode? No, you just assume it won't.

I want to see your facial expression should the earth explode in a few minutes. ;D 

But isn't the 1/10000-whatever is basically a simplified version of the 'either this or this' which could possibly be broken down to an atomic level otherwise, which only a really powerful computer could handle? XD

After all, when you are walking down the stairs think of every minute shift which could or could not happen which could lead on to another and so-on until the result is falling head-over-heels into the floor. Even if all these are 50/50, the overall effect of falling is not.
Edit: No, that's a case where the option is that it might or might not happen, it's different from the cube.

Stair 1: You might or not fall. And you didn't fall.
Stair 2: You might or not fall. And you didn't fall.
Stair 3: You might or not fall. And you didn't fall.
Stair 4: You might or not fall. And you didn't fall.

And you're done. You didn't fall. It's just another case. We make a difference between "An example where one possibility has to be different from the others" and "An example where it's fine when all possibilities are resulting in the same".

Should the first one apply, the whole universe is going to implode, I guess. It's kinda like time-travelling. Defying all logic means BOOM.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 10:37:41 pm by Fox »
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2007, 10:32:48 pm »
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I kindda understand.

Its, you either do or dont, right?
As in if theres 10 people you got to kill or they kill you, you dont have a 1 in 10 chance, you just do, or dont.
...Right?
You're my favourite member of ZFGC now. (Although the number of people was COMPLETELY irrelevant in this example lol. 8D)

:3

and yeah was just providing an example of which I could understand.
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2007, 10:36:58 pm »
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ah right
like these other people have been saying, you're just breaking it down to the absolute bottom i guess
and these "probabilites" are just that simplyfied

of course they are just the general possibility of whatever outcome of a set happening though
they are called probabl(y)ities after all :P
like you said, nothing is for certain, except that either one thing will happen, or it wont, but you can still make a general guess based on what you're saying, which is what probability is, right?
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Fox

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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2007, 10:39:03 pm »
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A "guess" and the term "probably" are not a certain mathematical tool.

And I'm talking about the maths of mother nature, not the additional bullcrap that mankind came up with.
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2007, 10:40:50 pm »
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but then you're also saying that if you role a perfectly fair 6 sided dice, then the chance of it landing on a 1 is 50%, chance of it landing on a 2 is 50% etc. 50% for all sides?
if so, i think you broke logic and maths? O_o
You obviously didn't understand.

We have six options.
It lands on 1, it lands on 2, it lands on 3, it lands on 4, it lands on 5 or it lands on 6.

Every option has its OWN 50/50-probability.
It either lands on 1 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 2 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 3 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 4 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 5 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.
It either lands on 6 or it doesn't, and hence on another number.

If it doesn't land on five out of the six, it HAS to be the remaining options.

You got it now? :3
Yes but isn't saying 1/6 probability just a simplified version of that? Yes you either do or you don't, but there is a lower chance something will happen, the more options there are. If there is a 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance the earth will explode you still must assume there is a greater chance the earth will not explode than it will.

I don't know, this is kind of confusing me. I'll leave this to the intelligent people...:(
I guess, but what does that help you? If there is a 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance the earth will explode, that is a prediction. Nothing definitive. Nothing EXACT. Will it tell you that the earth will not explode? No, you just assume it won't.

I want to see your facial expression should the earth explode in a few minutes. ;D 
Okay, I understand. However predictions and assumptions usually are very helpful.

I seriously laughed at the last sentence,  XD
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Fox

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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2007, 10:43:05 pm »
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They can mean your certain DEATH. Or, failure in whatever you do, to be less dramatic. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's completely pointless to worry about Probabilities. And that those are just made up.

Edit: You people might find this interesting:
http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php

It didn't start me believing the things I believe, but it supported and advanced it.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 10:45:24 pm by Fox »
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2007, 10:48:43 pm »
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1) We should never disregard knowledge just because it's useless.
2) What if we were to calculate a 99.99999999999999% probability of something really bad happening but damage control could happen if the process started in advance early enough? Surely it would make sense to prepare for it, even with the 00.00000000000001% saying it still may not happen.
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2007, 10:50:01 pm »
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A "guess" and the term "probably" are not a certain mathematical tool.

And I'm talking about the maths of mother nature, not the additional bullcrap that mankind came up with.
hmm yeah
well they are if each outcome has a certain possibility (ie a number to it, not either it does or doesnt >_<) of happening, but that's never the case in this world :/

and that flash is pretty interesting although i've not seen it in.. years now? O_o
maybe i should again and see how much i manage to grasp this time round (although i have no clue how it was the first time i saw it >_<)

but anyway, so all in all, nothings certain except that something will happen or it wont and so trying to get exact numbers from uncertain things isnt perfect at all, but like jay said, it can still be useful even if it's not that perfect at all
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 10:51:55 pm by hawthorneluke »
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Fox

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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2007, 10:54:07 pm »
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1) We should never disregard knowledge just because it's useless.
You basically just said "Don't disregard things that are completely useless to your life and don't affect it".

2) What if we were to calculate a 99.99999999999999% probability of something really bad happening but damage control could happen if the process started in advance early enough? Surely it would make sense to prepare for it, even with the 00.00000000000001% saying it still may not happen.
I'm not saying it's NEVER gonna happen. What you mean is prevention/prophylaxes. And that is - ironically - supporting my point, in ways. "Guys, something bad might happen or it might not. Just to be safe though, we should prepare for it to happen".

If you do prepare, you might as well think like I do.
If you don't prepare, you just think that bad things NEVER happen. And that's not what I'm saying. :3

A "guess" and the term "probably" are not a certain mathematical tool.

And I'm talking about the maths of mother nature, not the additional bullcrap that mankind came up with.
hmm yeah
well they are if each outcome has a certain possibility (ie a number to it, not either it does or doesnt >_<) of happening, but that's never the case in this world :/

and that flash is pretty interesting although i've not seen it in.. years now? O_o
maybe i should again and see how much i manage to grasp this time round (although i have no clue how it was the first time i saw it >_<)

but anyway, so all in all, nothings certain except that something will happen or it wont and so trying to get exact numbers from uncertain things isnt perfect at all, but like jay said, it can still be useful even if it's not that perfect at all
He didn't say that, kylink said. Jay talked about preventions, as I just said. Other than that, you seem to understand me.
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2007, 10:58:50 pm »
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i meant with putting such things to use in the real world, which is what jay said

but yeah so in the end
probablities aren't ever exact, they're just a probable chance of something happening thanks to the fact that it has to either happen or not

not all that complex i don't think :P
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2007, 11:06:39 pm »
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I see what you mean, that something either happens, or it doesn't, but it doesn't make it fifty fifty. The chance that it happens is affected by the other alternatives.

If you roll a dice, it doesn't have a 50% chance of rolling on either number, because there are other alternatives. It isn't 'It either will land on the six, or it won't'  It's 'It will either land on the six, or the five, or the four, or the three, or the two, or the one.' Making six outcomes. If you say there's a fifty fifty chance for each number, it makes it so that each one of the six sides has a fifty percent chance of being the outcome, then you will have 300%, making it 50/300, or one in six. It either does or it doesn't for six different alternatives, but there is no won't, because it only has six outcomes. If it doesn't roll on number one, it doesn't just have one other alternative, it has 5.

If you have a spinning wheel, like twister, and you use it like a dice, but you want it to spin on the six less than the one, and every number that's higher, you want to have a lower chance, so you make 30% of the wheel one. Then you make 25% of the wheel number two. then 20% number three. 15% number four. 7.5% number five, and 2.5 percent of it number six. When you spin it, it has 360 degrees to land on, and an amount of minuets. This is changed to 100%. 30% of the degrees is number one. So in every possible outcome, 30% of the possible outcomes will be one.

I can see your logic in saying it does or doesn't, but it isn't that, it's whether it lands on this, or this, or this, etc.
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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2007, 11:08:53 pm »
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"Don't disregard things that are completely useless to your life and don't affect it" is another wording for exactly WHAT I meant <_<
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Fox

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Re: Probabilites are non-sense.
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2007, 11:11:51 pm »
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i meant with putting such things to use in the real world, which is what jay said

but yeah so in the end
probablities aren't ever exact, they're just a probable chance of something happening thanks to the fact that it has to either happen or not
They don't "NEVER" happen, it's just that we can't predict it.

not all that complex i don't think :P
That is exactly my point. It's even easier than probability-maths. People just refuse to realize that.

I see what you mean, that something either happens, or it doesn't, but it doesn't make it fifty fifty. The chance that it happens is affected by the other alternatives.

If you roll a dice, it doesn't have a 50% chance of rolling on either number, because there are other alternatives. It isn't 'It either will land on the six, or it won't'  It's 'It will either land on the six, or the five, or the four, or the three, or the two, or the one.' Making six outcomes. If you say there's a fifty fifty chance for each number, it makes it so that each one of the six sides has a fifty percent chance of being the outcome, then you will have 300%, making it 50/300, or one in six. It either does or it doesn't for six different alternatives, but there is no won't, because it only has six outcomes. If it doesn't roll on number one, it doesn't just have one other alternative, it has 5.

If you have a spinning wheel, like twister, and you use it like a dice, but you want it to spin on the six less than the one, and every number that's higher, you want to have a lower chance, so you make 30% of the wheel one. Then you make 25% of the wheel number two. then 20% number three. 15% number four. 7.5% number five, and 2.5 percent of it number six. When you spin it, it has 360 degrees to land on, and an amount of minuets. This is changed to 100%. 30% of the degrees is number one. So in every possible outcome, 30% of the possible outcomes will be one.

I can see your logic in saying it does or doesn't, but it isn't that, it's whether it lands on this, or this, or this, etc.
Read my other post. I explained that this is a case where one thing might apply, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense to use probability. I know that saying "We have six options, and one of them has to apply, with every option having a 50/50-chance to happen" is like saying "It's 1/6 for every side". That still won't tell you what will happen. So using a prediction is absolutely unreasonable.

Quote
If you roll a dice, it doesn't have a 50% chance of rolling on either number, because there are other alternatives. It isn't 'It either will land on the six, or it won't'  It's 'It will either land on the six, or the five, or the four, or the three, or the two, or the one.' Making six outcomes
Especially that. I never said that only one thing will or will not apply. Of course there are six outcomes. I said that.

"Don't disregard things that are completely useless to your life and don't affect it" is another wording for exactly WHAT I meant <_<
I hoped it wasn't.

So why should I not disregard things that are completely, ABSOLUTELY meaningless to my life?



Furthermore, everyone, I feel like this is a discussion that is similar to a religion-discussion. I'm not trying to !@#$% someone off, really. I like all of you. <3 If I make myself look like a show-off, high-stacked !@#$%, that's only because I try to be as objective as I can. Sorry if you get the wrong impression. D:


I hope none of you gets personal either. :3
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 11:21:33 pm by Fox »
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