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Author Topic: Idea about the WIP-board.  (Read 6413 times)

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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2006, 08:32:57 pm »
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Maybe we should just educate people good ways of developing a game (or having a project). I mean, tell people how they should do for success. Tell about the phases: idea -> planning -> work -> finalize (often called a new version) -> release. Then when someone posts a stupid topic just refer them to the tutorial topic and let them read it (if they won't then that's their problem, no?)
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Pyru

Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2006, 08:33:31 pm »
I dont get where people are getting the idea to block all access to WIP for, I mean, one reason ZFGC is so popular is because it's a good place to post your projects, good OR bad. What we need is a place for the exceptionally good ones to be placed. What this accomplishes is twofold; firstly, it helps us filter good projects from bad ones, and secondly; it gives people something to achieve with their projects, so they'll work harder on their projects, and thus we'll also get higher quality projects.

Good projects/bad projects is objective and biased. It's gonna upset a lot of people - "what do you mean my project isn't good?" etc.

What you don't understand about the WIP thing is... the only difference will be that people can't start new topics there, but can reply. By STARTING all project topics in Early Ideas, they then have to apply to a mod for the topic to be moved to WIP... the mods then check that all the criteria for the topic to be put in WIP are met.

Simple, and prevents people from posting invalid projects in WIP.
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2006, 08:35:24 pm »
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Good point MiNalien and you too Pyru, umm do I have to chose? :-\ ??? :-\ ???
We need someone to choose from these ideas.
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2006, 08:47:17 pm »
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I dont get where people are getting the idea to block all access to WIP for, I mean, one reason ZFGC is so popular is because it's a good place to post your projects, good OR bad. What we need is a place for the exceptionally good ones to be placed. What this accomplishes is twofold; firstly, it helps us filter good projects from bad ones, and secondly; it gives people something to achieve with their projects, so they'll work harder on their projects, and thus we'll also get higher quality projects.
I definitely agree. An Anim8or forum I went to once had a "spotlight" subsection for particularly well-made or detailed models. And it's not really very hard to separate the good from the bad here (as long as there' no maximum number of spotlight games). I think the percentage ide awould work too, though - it'd show how much of a game has been done, those furthuring the effect of separating "Early" and "WIP" games.

And Pyru, your idea has little ground, really. You're suggesting that EVERYBODY has to post their game in Early Production, then mods move the ones that go in WIP. But as it is now, those who know what they're doing will post truly WIP game sin WIP and only the confused members will post Early games in WIP, which the mods have to move. With your method, the only thing you're doing is increasing mod's workload and decreasing members' chance of getting some attention for their game.
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Fox

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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2006, 08:59:29 pm »
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I like the idea but I've got one problem with it: Do we need an elite that tells us what is good for us?

...

That came out wrong.. I meant more like... what IF they give red for a project which they think look unprofessional? I.e. a game that has weird graphics (kinda like how everyone/many though about WindWaker). The game might look unprofessional at first but when you get deeper into it, it becomes brilliant. So I just think that these judges would have to go strictly after quantity of content, not quality. (i.e. a full game which is buggy would be green because it's got contents and is fairly playable, yet a brilliant walking engine only demo would still be red even though it's brilliant at least for now). Do you understand how I mean?
Then they have to prove the jury wrong. It's a question of good presentation. Besides, the jury doesn't have to be THAT strict. Keeping away pointless crap-topics would already help a lot.

I definately agree with stopping members being able to post in WIP and Completed Projects. That will clean a lot of things up.

Setting the boards to Reply Only makes it a really quick, easy job for the admins.

As for the jury stuff I think it's pure crap. Sorry, but that's what I think. ALL that needs to be done is stop people posting in WIP and Completed Projects. Then they just apply for topics to be moved in the normal way.
No, I'm alright with your opinion. :) But then you guys really have to do something about pointless topics posted in WIP.

No, I stand by what I said before. An extra (but manual) filtering process should be added. If posting in WIP is disallowed, there'll be trouble too. I don't really like that idea. I think the best way to go on fangames is to have at least 10% done (like, full engine, or, most of the engine, and a room or two) before posting it - lots of people don't do that, but those who do would have to put their game where it didn't belong and have to wait while the mods sifted through the topics. It'd just be an added hassle for everyone. A "percentage" system might work, though - indicating on update in the topic title what percentage your game is at. Like I might have said in the "Spirit of Fangames" topic, I think the point at which most people post in Early Production & Ideas is the time they should be posting in Recruiting and advertising, and starting to build up a team, or at least some support.

Stopping posting in completed Projects is an absolutely terrible idea. What if, let's call him "PellMell46" (purely fictional), what if PellMell46 signs up to ZFGC? He found it searching for resources on Google. He's made a Zelda game with a few dungeons and is working on a sequel/expansion to that game. What if he wants to post his completed game? What if it's really good? He'd have to go through this whole process, post it in Early production, post it in WIP, finally post it in Completed. It's just an added hassle -_-
If his game was that good and he was that convinced, don't you think he'd go through that process? ;)

I dont get where people are getting the idea to block all access to WIP for, I mean, one reason ZFGC is so popular is because it's a good place to post your projects, good OR bad. What we need is a place for the exceptionally good ones to be placed. What this accomplishes is twofold; firstly, it helps us filter good projects from bad ones, and secondly; it gives people something to achieve with their projects, so they'll work harder on their projects, and thus we'll also get higher quality projects.
But they didn't try to (or couldn't) improve already now, why would it be different to make more sub-boards? ???

I dont get where people are getting the idea to block all access to WIP for, I mean, one reason ZFGC is so popular is because it's a good place to post your projects, good OR bad. What we need is a place for the exceptionally good ones to be placed. What this accomplishes is twofold; firstly, it helps us filter good projects from bad ones, and secondly; it gives people something to achieve with their projects, so they'll work harder on their projects, and thus we'll also get higher quality projects.

Good projects/bad projects is objective and biased. It's gonna upset a lot of people - "what do you mean my project isn't good?" etc.

What you don't understand about the WIP thing is... the only difference will be that people can't start new topics there, but can reply. By STARTING all project topics in Early Ideas, they then have to apply to a mod for the topic to be moved to WIP... the mods then check that all the criteria for the topic to be put in WIP are met.

Simple, and prevents people from posting invalid projects in WIP.
Well, that's what it was supposed to be like, in the first place. Or was it?

And Pyru, your idea has little ground, really. You're suggesting that EVERYBODY has to post their game in Early Production, then mods move the ones that go in WIP. But as it is now, those who know what they're doing will post truly WIP game sin WIP and only the confused members will post Early games in WIP, which the mods have to move. With your method, the only thing you're doing is increasing mod's workload and decreasing members' chance of getting some attention for their game.
The  point of it was that ALL projects were supposed to be posted in Early Ideas. Then Mods check if it's okay to move it to WIP and move it. (Therefore you're probably not able to make topics on the WIP-board).

Well, at least I THINK that's what you mean. If not, I like this idea too. :P
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2006, 09:02:51 pm »
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I think that the very good work-in-progress games could go under the important topics section of the board.  That way, when we have a site, the games featured on the site would be easy to find on the forum, and inversely one would probably know what games were on the site.  This would have people try to make a good game to get into the good list and on the website, and would separate the good games from the bad ones.

New games would have to go with all of the other ones that were not exceptional, but if they gathered enough popular support, they could be moved to the important section.  I think that a jury system would be bad though.  People do have to start somewhere, but to have a certain group of people decide if your game was good would be bad; the majority of the forum deciding would be good though.  Movement to the important list would probably be done with a team-up of the mods (move the topic), the site staff (decide if they could put the game on the site), and the creator of the topic (if he or she wants it moved or on the site).

I do like Pyru's idea about having all projects having to start in the ideas board though, this in itself, would greatly help with quality control; not just in the game but in the topic's grammar and layout.
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Fox

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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2006, 09:06:18 pm »
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I think that the very good work-in-progress games could go under the important topics section of the board.  That way, when we have a site, the games featured on the site would be easy to find on the forum, and inversely one would probably know what games were on the site.  This would have people try to make a good game to get into the good list and on the website, and would separate the good games from the bad ones.

New games would have to go with all of the other ones that were not exceptional, but if they gathered enough popular support, they could be moved to the important section.  I think that a jury system would be bad though.  People do have to start somewhere, but to have a certain group of people decide if your game was good would be bad; the majority of the forum deciding would be good though.  Movement to the important list would probably be done with a team-up of the mods (move the topic), the site staff (decide if they could put the game on the site), and the creator of the topic (if he or she wants it moved or on the site).

I do like Pyru's idea about having all projects having to start in the ideas board though, this in itself, would greatly help with quality control; not just in the game but in the topic's grammar and layout.
Then you should discuss this in the Mod-section and take action. I really like this idea. And  it gets along with other peoples opinion too, apparently :)
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2006, 09:14:33 pm »
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I like the idea but I've got one problem with it: Do we need an elite that tells us what is good for us?

...

That came out wrong.. I meant more like... what IF they give red for a project which they think look unprofessional? I.e. a game that has weird graphics (kinda like how everyone/many though about WindWaker). The game might look unprofessional at first but when you get deeper into it, it becomes brilliant. So I just think that these judges would have to go strictly after quantity of content, not quality. (i.e. a full game which is buggy would be green because it's got contents and is fairly playable, yet a brilliant walking engine only demo would still be red even though it's brilliant at least for now). Do you understand how I mean?
Then they have to prove the jury wrong. It's a question of good presentation. Besides, the jury doesn't have to be THAT strict. Keeping away pointless crap-topics would already help a lot.
See, rather than having a semi-strict jury, why not simply have a slightly more strict moderation? Remove pointless complication.


No, I stand by what I said before. An extra (but manual) filtering process should be added. If posting in WIP is disallowed, there'll be trouble too. I don't really like that idea. I think the best way to go on fangames is to have at least 10% done (like, full engine, or, most of the engine, and a room or two) before posting it - lots of people don't do that, but those who do would have to put their game where it didn't belong and have to wait while the mods sifted through the topics. It'd just be an added hassle for everyone. A "percentage" system might work, though - indicating on update in the topic title what percentage your game is at. Like I might have said in the "Spirit of Fangames" topic, I think the point at which most people post in Early Production & Ideas is the time they should be posting in Recruiting and advertising, and starting to build up a team, or at least some support.

Stopping posting in completed Projects is an absolutely terrible idea. What if, let's call him "PellMell46" (purely fictional), what if PellMell46 signs up to ZFGC? He found it searching for resources on Google. He's made a Zelda game with a few dungeons and is working on a sequel/expansion to that game. What if he wants to post his completed game? What if it's really good? He'd have to go through this whole process, post it in Early production, post it in WIP, finally post it in Completed. It's just an added hassle -_-
If his game was that good and he was that convinced, don't you think he'd go through that process? ;)
I dind't say anything about him being "that convinced". He just wants to post his game! Now he has to go through an annoying and, at least in his case, unnecessary process to do so.




I dont get where people are getting the idea to block all access to WIP for, I mean, one reason ZFGC is so popular is because it's a good place to post your projects, good OR bad. What we need is a place for the exceptionally good ones to be placed. What this accomplishes is twofold; firstly, it helps us filter good projects from bad ones, and secondly; it gives people something to achieve with their projects, so they'll work harder on their projects, and thus we'll also get higher quality projects.
But they didn't try to (or couldn't) improve already now, why would it be different to make more sub-boards? ???
Because discretion is left up to the people. That's what Min and I are shooting for. You and Pyru are trying to make mods more involved, but why should mods be bogged down with more work? The members here aren't stupid - making something they can just do on their own, immediately, is a better system for everyone. What if you made a game and wanted to post it, but the "jury" were arguing becasue, um, let's say hyrule_boy was on the jury, and he didn't like it because it was MC style? :P Stupid example, but it's true that decisions could take longer than necessary. And if that happened, projects would eventually pile up until it's more of a mess than it is now. Pless, the first thing to do when implementing your system would be to go through this process with every single existing game, otherwise, it's just not fair to the people who make a game after this is implemented. And what about scrapped games? If a game takes a while to get confirmed and then is scrapped by the owner, it was just a big waste of time!


And Pyru, your idea has little ground, really. You're suggesting that EVERYBODY has to post their game in Early Production, then mods move the ones that go in WIP. But as it is now, those who know what they're doing will post truly WIP game sin WIP and only the confused members will post Early games in WIP, which the mods have to move. With your method, the only thing you're doing is increasing mod's workload and decreasing members' chance of getting some attention for their game.
The  point of it was that ALL projects were supposed to be posted in Early Ideas. Then Mods check if it's okay to move it to WIP and move it. (Therefore you're probably not able to make topics on the WIP-board).

Well, at least I THINK that's what you mean. If not, I like this idea too. :P
Indeed. So like I said - currently, only the confused members are putting topics in WIP when they should be in Early Production & Ideas, which the mods will move. But in that system, Everybdoy puts it in Early Production & Ideas and the mods have to go through all of them. See what I mean? It just increases work and frustration for the mods.

I think that the very good work-in-progress games could go under the important topics section of the board.  That way, when we have a site, the games featured on the site would be easy to find on the forum, and inversely one would probably know what games were on the site.  This would have people try to make a good game to get into the good list and on the website, and would separate the good games from the bad ones.

New games would have to go with all of the other ones that were not exceptional, but if they gathered enough popular support, they could be moved to the important section.  I think that a jury system would be bad though.  People do have to start somewhere, but to have a certain group of people decide if your game was good would be bad; the majority of the forum deciding would be good though.  Movement to the important list would probably be done with a team-up of the mods (move the topic), the site staff (decide if they could put the game on the site), and the creator of the topic (if he or she wants it moved or on the site).
I agree. There used to be a game of the month, right? now there could just be featured games, along the same principle.
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Fox

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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2006, 10:01:59 pm »
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Quote
See, rather than having a semi-strict jury, why not simply have a slightly more strict moderation? Remove
pointless complication.
I agree on this one.

Quote
Because discretion is left up to the people. That's what Min and I are shooting for. You and Pyru are trying to make mods more involved, but why should mods be bogged down with more work? The members here aren't stupid - making something they can just do on their own, immediately, is a better system for everyone. What if you made a game and wanted to post it, but the "jury" were arguing becasue, um, let's say hyrule_boy was on the jury, and he didn't like it because it was MC style? :P Stupid example, but it's true that decisions could take longer than necessary. And if that happened, projects would eventually pile up until it's more of a mess than it is now. Pless, the first thing to do when implementing your system would be to go through this process with every single existing game, otherwise, it's just not fair to the people who make a game after this is implemented. And what about scrapped games? If a game takes a while to get confirmed and then is scrapped by the owner, it was just a big waste of time!
Of course we would have reliable jury-members. Unprejudiced members. If things are handled properly, it won't be a mess. And a game that gets scrapped ONLY because it wasn't accepted yet and not shown on ZFGC or scrapped anyway - why bothering to have it on ZFGC?

Quote
Indeed. So like I said - currently, only the confused members are putting topics in WIP when they should be in Early Production & Ideas, which the mods will move. But in that system, Everybdoy puts it in Early Production & Ideas and the mods have to go through all of them. See what I mean? It just increases work and frustration for the mods.
Then I'd say we have a special team to take care of this  (if it's really that much of trouble for Mods).

Quote
I agree. There used to be a game of the month, right? now there could just be featured games, along the same principle.
I'd like bringing that back, too. :)
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2006, 10:38:20 pm »
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See, rather than having a semi-strict jury, why not simply have a slightly more strict moderation? Remove
pointless complication.
I agree on this one.
Great. :D Common ground at last! :P

Quote
Because discretion is left up to the people. That's what Min and I are shooting for. You and Pyru are trying to make mods more involved, but why should mods be bogged down with more work? The members here aren't stupid - making something they can just do on their own, immediately, is a better system for everyone. What if you made a game and wanted to post it, but the "jury" were arguing becasue, um, let's say hyrule_boy was on the jury, and he didn't like it because it was MC style? :P Stupid example, but it's true that decisions could take longer than necessary. And if that happened, projects would eventually pile up until it's more of a mess than it is now. Pless, the first thing to do when implementing your system would be to go through this process with every single existing game, otherwise, it's just not fair to the people who make a game after this is implemented. And what about scrapped games? If a game takes a while to get confirmed and then is scrapped by the owner, it was just a big waste of time!
Of course we would have reliable jury-members. Unprejudiced members. If things are handled properly, it won't be a mess. And a game that gets scrapped ONLY because it wasn't accepted yet and not shown on ZFGC or scrapped anyway - why bothering to have it on ZFGC?

You misunderstand. Regardless of how effective a jury is, reviewing games will take longer than posting a topic in WIP. Definitely no debate there. so wha tI'm saying is, if a game gets passed (admitted/allowed/get-go) by the jury, what if it gets scrapped not long after? I mean, to pass the jury, it was obviously quality. but now it's scrapped. Wasn't that a waste of time on the part of the jury? Now, i am not totally against this idea. It would effectively stop people recklessly making games or having lots of projects at once. but I think there are much easier ways of doing that. A jury would take the game-making power from the community and place it in the hands of the staff. If that happens, then ZFGC will effectively be discouraging n00bs from continuing making games and getting better, eventually making good-quality games.


Quote
Indeed. So like I said - currently, only the confused members are putting topics in WIP when they should be in Early Production & Ideas, which the mods will move. But in that system, Everybdoy puts it in Early Production & Ideas and the mods have to go through all of them. See what I mean? It just increases work and frustration for the mods.
Then I'd say we have a special team to take care of this  (if it's really that much of trouble for Mods).
Case in point. If we need a special team just to do this, then it's definitely a hassle - whereas the same moderation process is actually going on already, simply the other way around.

Quote
I agree. There used to be a game of the month, right? now there could just be featured games, along the same principle.
I'd like bringing that back, too. :)
Well, I'm not sure it'd work. Game-makers aren't nearly as prolific now as in the "golden days" (And I do not mean ezBoard) and so the GOTM would eventually end up cycling through certain good games. That's why I think there should simply be a constant "game spotlight" for the current best games.
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2006, 05:04:38 am »
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Thats a really good idea

I'd definitely like to be on the board of judges
(though because i have my own game someone else must review that)

maybe the judges should post a review of the demo/trailer in the games thread
(you keep calling them demos,
maybe they are but if the ultimate goal is to create a full fledged game i think we should call the games)

i also noticed people are concerned about this because they feel they will be wrongly judged
that may be so, but since we are going to post a review, our reasons will be clear to everyone
and so therefore it shouldnt really pose as a problem, other than that some think it will be a "hassle"

it goes without saying that a judge has to play the game from start to end,
and has to value not only graphics but mechanics, story, music and sound
some of the demos here have problems just starting (for me), and some are chopping alot, not sure why but that has to count too (playability)

there can be two purposes for this
one is to determine if its an idea or something playable, wont be so strict rules
the second is to give the maker an idea on what he might want to improve on, and perhaps point out problems or even bugs
so all in all, i really like this idea :)

reviewing seems like an idea at the very least
« Last Edit: September 30, 2006, 05:18:02 am by Gonzo »
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2006, 01:16:33 pm »
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Thats a really good idea

I'd definitely like to be on the board of judges
(though because i have my own game someone else must review that)

maybe the judges should post a review of the demo/trailer in the games thread
(you keep calling them demos,
maybe they are but if the ultimate goal is to create a full fledged game i think we should call the games)

i also noticed people are concerned about this because they feel they will be wrongly judged
that may be so, but since we are going to post a review, our reasons will be clear to everyone
and so therefore it shouldnt really pose as a problem, other than that some think it will be a "hassle"

it goes without saying that a judge has to play the game from start to end,
and has to value not only graphics but mechanics, story, music and sound
some of the demos here have problems just starting (for me), and some are chopping alot, not sure why but that has to count too (playability)

there can be two purposes for this
one is to determine if its an idea or something playable, wont be so strict rules
the second is to give the maker an idea on what he might want to improve on, and perhaps point out problems or even bugs
so all in all, i really like this idea :)

reviewing seems like an idea at the very least

Meaning that games will really be slowed down. Because as I said, to be fair to everyone, the first thing this comitte or board of judges (or the mods in Pyru's idea) would be to go through all the existing topics. And I also dislike this judge system because it's very un-democratic.  It snatches away the freedom of members that is really the base of a forum, and gives all the power to staff. ZFGC is a very democratic board, and the staff are always friendly to members, and often involve members in site decisions. such as this topic.

Part of the problem is n00bs. People are annoyed when n00bs post n00bish games and flame them. Perhaps a "beginning games" forum should also be created. (Rather than the "experimental games" idea I posted in another topic) Thus, EI&P will house ames that are just that: Early Ideas, or only somewhat begun. "Beginning games" will require, let's say, a list of credits, or something similar, to show tha twork is being begun on a game. Once the game ahs enough to provide a trailer/demo, it'll go in WIP. Easy, and it still leaves everything up to members.
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2006, 01:24:48 pm »
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Thats definitely a valid point,
but i still think reviewing games if not to pass judgement but for people to read,
and for the games maker to receive critisism and comments.. even if its not qualified
there will of course be rules as to how a review is to be made, as i previously stated
thats all :)
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2006, 01:33:58 pm »
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mhhh... it wouldt be cool and better for the good games !!! i like the idea !!!
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2006, 01:46:52 pm »
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So since when do people want to kill the freedome on ZFGC? If people want to post crappy projects I don't care. They will look like stupid noobs. So its their problem not yours.
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Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2006, 05:44:32 pm »
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Crap, I don't want to hear yet another idea about judging gameplay or graphics or media in the games. Judging that would become subjective. At max the judges would judge actual content AMOUNT. And not content QUALITY. That way a walking engine no matter how good would not be allowed in WIP and a buggy, horrible full blown game would STILL be allowed (because what you deem horrible is not always what everyone else does).

Still, games with only a walking engine (i.e. early production) should be able to be posted in early production (so that if you are not interested in games that early in dev you don't read those boards). And ideas (i.e. dev not started yet) could be posted in a seperate board (both for zelda and misc) to let people who don't want to follow early dev still be able to contribute and discuss ideas.

so we have:
Zelda WIP
Zelda EP
Misc WIP
Misc EP
Project Ideas
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Fox

Turnbeutelvergesser since 1988.
Re: Idea about the WIP-board.
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2006, 06:05:21 pm »
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Then I think we all agree on making stricter rules on the WIP-board.
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