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[Dark-Hylian]

Dark-Hylian

Zelda Game Concept discussion

As you may know, I'm working on a Zelda fan game. Why else would I be here? Anyways, I have some concept / plot issues that I'm trying to work out, and I figured, heck, this is a Zelda Fan Game Site, I bet people here would have comments.

First off, the Setting:

Currently, I'm using a modified version of the typical "Hyrule" settup, including: a Volcanic Mountain, a Lake, a Forest, a Desert, a big, central field, etc.

In this game, I'm really hoping for something as whimsically deep and meaningful as Majora's Mask, and for that, a point of central-ness is required, don't you think? A place to return to and see how things have changed. A few "almost" original ideas for areas are a Boneyard or Dead Woods, and a Coast area.

Scenery and Layout are, in my opinion at least, a key hook, Majora's Mask's environment being a perfect example. What do we see first? A misty forest, a twisting and haunting passage, and we end up in a town. The town itself has a personality, that eventually warms up to you the more you play. Each of the four wings of the world has it's own atmosphere, the dreary and forlorn swamps, the haunting, ancient and utterly mysterious Ikana Canyon, the shrouded and secluded Great Coast, and the howling peaks of the Snowhead areas.

In acheiving, or attempting to, a Majora's Mask type feel, the place (obviously) has to be crawling with history. Take the Stone Tower, the Giant's Mask, the obvious blasphemy to the Godesses and the mysterious curse that befell the peoples nearby. The feud between the gerudo pirates and the zora, the Lost Woods that make you feel that something's missing from them, something that you havn't spotted yet.

As a result, the areas have to be taken into consideration, their placement often determined by, or at least heavily influenced, by an underlying plot. Plots are my weak point, I can come up with amazing backstories and expand off of ideas, but for the life of me, I cannot think of a decent plot.


Secondly, the Plot:

While, like most Zelda games, I want to include many of the same items, making for interesting dungeons, I want to impliment much of my own touch. Replacing and sometimes excluding items will have to be worked into a plot, each given history, and each dungeon, which is modeled around the Boss and or Item, will have to fit securely into this "plot".

I had figured something about Remnants, ancient relics of mysterious power, which, when corrupted by "Instert Villain's Name Here"'s influence, causing the "guardians" (in most cases, or at least some, subsequent and unfortunate occupants of the area) to go loco. This leads to another important aspect, which I'll get to. So what happens? Does Mr. Evil try to do a WW and kidnap a relative? A MC and attack Zelda (getting sooo old), do a MM and attack Link, a TP and attack the whole world, and OOT and attack the world over time? This is greatly determined by the villain in question, or at least I'd think.

Third: the Villain!

One fatal flaw of most fan games, in my opinion, is the lacking of an 1.) original Main Bad-Guy, 2.) non-cliche Bad-Guy kidnaps Zelda(Oh Gawd) 3.) real Bad-Guy motive, not just "I'm going to conquer the world today!" or 4.) not having a Bad-Guy at all.

This is of the utmost importance. In Twilight Princess, Zant was a power-crazed Twili who turned to Ganondorf, a "god", for power. Power-Crazed.

Majora in Majora's Mask, was "abandoned" by his friends, the Giants. He resorted to petty tricks to settle his unhappines, and upon finding a powerful mask, used it to "get revenge". Majora symbolizes the lack of faith, (read all about it), and he lost hope in the Giants, who "left him behind", so he wrought havok on the inhabitants of Termina out of anger and lonliness. Lonliness and Hurt.

Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time was the prodigious, once in a blue moon, male child of the Gerudo. Influenced and brainwashed by Koume and Kotake, his foster parents, he became greedy, power hungry, and intent on capturing the power of the Sacred Triforce. Greedy and Power Hungry.

Vaati in Minish Cap was once a Minish, but wasn't content to live his life under the feet of the humans. He took the magic cap, became a sorcerer of no little power, and attempted to sacrifice Zelda in order to gain unimaginable power. He showed no particular malice, simply a hate of being ignored and trodden upon. Need to Prove.

A need for power, need for revenge, and a need for recognition. Each ghastly villain has a main attribute, and also a fatal flaw. Zant was so obsessed with power that he blindly threw away his life following a god only using him to return. Majora was so lonely and selfishly vengant, in the end, and he *says* it just about, he wanted to be killed. Ganondorf, his fatal flaw is hard to find, being the most ingeniously constructed villain ever(IMO). He overlooked Link's power, beleiving that power alone could see him through. While not a very large flaw, it did him in none the less. Vaati's fatal flaw was also underestimation. He didn't even beleive that Link would make it as far as he had, much less that Link would be able to successfully fight him.

Now the Dilema. As the plot and the villain are closely intertwined, I really need to be careful. I'm scared of making my own villain, because it may seem either cliche or someone might be already using something along those lines. Also, I'm scared of using Ganondorf, and while, I beleive I could do pretty well with him, I would fear mis-representing him, and the villain becomes an old fart. An original villain, like a Zant-Ganondorf type thing might work, having the "subordinate bad-guy" be the cover for the being behind, but that would feel cliche. I'd like to see what I could do with an original villain, but using Ganondorf, if done correctly, would probably be more... Zelda-esque.


All of these have to be combined to make something worthwhile, and, unfortunately for me, coordinating a non-existant bad guy with a non-existant plot and a world which revolves around said bad-guy and plot, is kind of hard. I have some ideas that I like, but I would like to here what you all think should go into a Zelda fan game.

Plans to include:

TP style overworld warping
New and unique swimming engine
Several original items
Something like the Bomber's Notebook or the Kinstone Pouch
Several New Overworld Areas
Unique Dungeons w/ Unique Bosses

Sorry for the mouthful, but I would like to hear what you all have to say. I'm incredibly interested to know what you guys thinks makes a Zelda game. Any help and suggestions are welcome, and I hope that we can come up with something 

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[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: Zelda Game Concept discussion

Okay, first to rectify some mistakes you made.

1) Majora in Majora's Mask is the demo power inhabiting the mask. The one wearing the mask and who is bitter for being left behind is called Skull Kid. Not much is know about Majora except that he does unspeakable evil, by influencing that pranks of Skull Kid. The rest is just guessing of fans.

2)

One fatal flaw of most fan games, in my opinion, is the lacking of an 1.) original Main Bad-Guy, 2.) non-cliche Bad-Guy kidnaps Zelda(Oh Gawd) 3.) real Bad-Guy motive, not just "I'm going to conquer the world today!" or 4.) not having a Bad-Guy at all.

It is not a fatal flaw. For one, people are often specialized in a single defining aspect of game development. Thus they have to do with the things they got. To call it a flaw is the same as calling them incompetent, which isn't really nice.



There are a lot more about bad guys than you mention, each with there motif and reason for doing things. With some the reason has not been given. And the bad guys are:

Dethl, his motif is clear. Just plain old survival and the urge to live and exist. Other bad guys: Onox, Veran, Bellum, Malladus and off course Dark Link. Especially the handheld games seem to have a tendency to come with interesting and unique main villains.

TP style overworld warping

that will be difficult, unless you are going to do a 3D game.

New and unique swimming engine

Swimming is swimming, most of it is done. Making a unique and new swimming engine is rather impossible. What functionality did you have in mind?



Okay now for some advice on plot building. You say you don't want to use cliche stuff and you want to make a plot as elaborate as MM. And yet you have difficulties making such a plot. I think you should tone down your wishes and expectations a bit. During the time of the NES a game could be made by a mere 10 people, after the NES with SNES and later consoles games became more elaborate and more people are required to work on it. Only for MM they had several people working on only the storyboard. And you expect to do it on your own and program/sprite/compose the game.

My suggestion is that you use the cliche stuff. Use what you've got. You probably will be spriting a lot of characters and villains anyway. Try to aim for a story of the level of LoZ or AoL. Not to big and focus on the gameplay and interesting dungeons first.

If you are bad at plot development, it is no biggie to use cliche and already done things. Don't worry about other fangames bad guys. If they resemble a bit doesn't matter, it only says that the both of you are on the right track, because more people think it is a interesting bad guy. Unless it is a complete copy, then you've got a problem.

Replacing and sometimes excluding items will have to be worked into a plot, each given history, and each dungeon, which is modeled around the Boss and or Item, will have to fit securely into this "plot".

Bad idea, don't get the plot involved in minute details. Some bosses maybe, but more like he is the final test to..., is the guardian off... or is corrupting this... But items no not much. You could make a nice sidequest though revolving around an item. But the main plot no. And explaining why you excluded items is a really big mistake, because when you explain one you need to explain others as well. If the item is not in the game, it is not in the game. No explanation needed.

A few points to think about when developing the plot.
- The main gameplay focus.
- The dungeon rythm. ( OOT -> 3 5 1, LA/OOA/OOS -> 7 1, MM -> 4 1)
- Main villain.


When making a the plot, make a sketch of the world and start building your plot with that. During the creation of the plot you'll find that you will change your map to fit your story better. Scrap some parts and adding others.

Finally, you already have a title. When you thought of that you had a slight idea for a plot.

[Dark-Hylian]

Dark-Hylian

Re: Zelda Game Concept discussion

1.)

"However, their friend, the imp, misunderstood their intentions and thought that they were abandoning him. Angered, he played horrible tricks and tormented the people of Termina. The Four Giants, being the protectors of the people, gave their friend the choice to either return to the heavens or be torn apart by them. The imp returned to the heavens, but somehow managed to descend to Termina again, in the form of a Skull Kid. " - http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Four_Giants

2.)

What  I meant by a fatal flaw, was the weakest link in the game. Often times, fan games are well constructed in the sense of coding and imagery. In almost every Zelda fan game i've played, albiet only a half-dozen or so, is the lack of a properly portrayed bad-guy. Not to flame on anyone's games or anything, I did not mean to be offensive.

3.)

I've never played OOA / OOS, and I don't entirely count Dark-Link as a villain, because in the few appearences he has made, he played no significant role and never had any significant role in the plot (correct me if I'm wrong).

4.)

The warping. I don't beleive it will be hard, no harder than MC ocarina flight, in fact, possibly easier. I've yet to begin coding it, but I can't see how it would be too hard.

5.)

I was entirely un-satisfied with MC and ALTTP's swimming. So much water and so little to do with it. I plan to implement a Dive system that gives it a 3D feel. For example, when you have the ability to dive, you go below the water, into a new "room", the same shape and in the same place, as the body of water you were in before. When Diving, you can swim around, and the new "room" of the underwater area has it's own obstacles and enemies. Then, when you get the Iron Boots, you can walk around on the floor of the area, able to interact with the objects (ie, pick up underwater rocks, etc) and combat the enemies. Thus, a much "larger" overworld instantly becomes avaliable.

6.)

Dungeon rhythm has been figured out, and in a 4-1-3-1 style, 4 short, 1 medium, 3 long, 1 long. I have plans and concepts / concept art and layout sketches for several new dungeons, so the dungeon designs shouldn't be too much of a problem to come up with.

Main Bad Guy - I'm working on this as we speak. Currently, I have almost no background for him, save the fact that his name is Stráges. I have his design, and am working on a history and personality for him. Possibly considering giving him a "partner" or "sibling".

Main Gameplay Focus - this is my issue. I have tons of ideas for everything else, but nothing as to how this fan game is set apart from any of the others. The most over-used two gameplay focuses in Zelda, Time(or Season) travel, and shape-shifting. I beleive that OOA / OOS, while I've never played them, have to do with swapping between time / seasons. As do OOT and MM, the later not being so great of an offender, but at the same time, with the day system, even more so.

Shape-shifting is equally prominent. In Majora's Mask, we have the changing of races / shapes to acomplish things. In ALTTP, although not for all too long, we have the bunny form. In TP we have the wolf and human forms, in OOT, although I consider this Time Travel, we have young and Adult Link. I also account the "Four Sword Cloning" in MC to count as shape-shifting. Wind Waker and PH/ST, which are at the end of the metaphorical timeline, "two of which I havn't finished yet," are based around transportation in a larger, sparsely populated overworld, which actually annoyed the crud out of me.

Seeing as how almost all zelda games fall into one of these two(or three) catagories, I both feel like I'm breaking the mold, if I were to choose something different, but at the same time so rediculously cliche, if I did use one.


7.)

As for the overworld, I have a map now, and I like it a lot. I'm still deciding whether or not I should combine the castle and the central town, or leave them apart. Aside from that, the geography and it's history and underway. I like the layout, it's fairly central, like Majora's Mask, but at the same time, each wing of the world is independant, like in Links Awakening(in the top five of my favorite games, the both of them.)

As for a title, I've been toying with Twilight's Edge, Effigy of Illumination, Dawn of Sorrow, and a few others. However, I'm putting off assigning a "Definite Title" until I have a plot and game-play focus.

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[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: Zelda Game Concept discussion

What  I meant by a fatal flaw, was the weakest link in the game. Often times, fan games are well constructed in the sense of coding and imagery. In almost every Zelda fan game i've played, albiet only a half-dozen or so, is the lack of a properly portrayed bad-guy. Not to flame on anyone's games or anything, I did not mean to be offensive.

...

I've never played OOA / OOS, and I don't entirely count Dark-Link as a villain, because in the few appearences he has made, he played no significant role and never had any significant role in the plot (correct me if I'm wrong).

...

Main Bad Guy - I'm working on this as we speak. Currently, I have almost no background for him, save the fact that his name is Stráges. I have his design, and am working on a history and personality for him. Possibly considering giving him a "partner" or "sibling".

Zelda II: Adventures of Link, was about Link's search for the Triforce of Courage. He had to overcome a number of trials to prove his courage. The final test is against himself (aka Dark Link). The big bad guy here was Link himself and not Ganon, although the Game Over screen might suggest it. Talk about an original bad guy.

I do not want to be offensive either, but everyone thinks they have an original bad and tell everyone about the details. But when you analyze everything, abstract it and all, you always come down to some basic common theme. The big bad guy wants power, to rule or simply revenge. Your bad guy will probably be the same, no matter how many siblings, history or personality you give him/her.

The warping. I don't beleive it will be hard, no harder than MC ocarina flight, in fact, possibly easier. I've yet to begin coding it, but I can't see how it would be too hard.

Oh I don't believe the warping capability is the problem, but freaking hole in the sky that is TP's special signature. You would need a 3D effect for that.

I was entirely un-satisfied with MC and ALTTP's swimming. So much water and so little to do with it. I plan to implement a Dive system that gives it a 3D feel. For example, when you have the ability to dive, you go below the water, into a new "room", the same shape and in the same place, as the body of water you were in before. When Diving, you can swim around, and the new "room" of the underwater area has it's own obstacles and enemies. Then, when you get the Iron Boots, you can walk around on the floor of the area, able to interact with the objects (ie, pick up underwater rocks, etc) and combat the enemies. Thus, a much "larger" overworld instantly becomes avaliable.

Well in 3D Zelda's that has been done often. To bad you have never played OOA:
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/GB-GBC/LegendOfZelda-OracleOfAges-Labrynna%28Past%29.png
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/GB-GBC/LegendOfZelda-OracleOfAges-Underwater%28Past%29.png
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/GB-GBC/LegendOfZelda-OracleOfAges-Labrynna%28Present%29.png
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/GB-GBC/LegendOfZelda-OracleOfAges-Underwater%28Present%29.png

Main Gameplay Focus - this is my issue. I have tons of ideas for everything else, but nothing as to how this fan game is set apart from any of the others. The most over-used two gameplay focuses in Zelda, Time(or Season) travel (-> traveling between worlds), and shape-shifting. I beleive that OOA / OOS, while I've never played them, have to do with swapping between time / seasons. As do OOT and MM, the later not being so great of an offender, but at the same time, with the day system, even more so.

Shape-shifting is equally prominent. In Majora's Mask, we have the changing of races / shapes to acomplish things. In ALTTP, although not for all too long, we have the bunny form. In TP we have the wolf and human forms, in OOT, although I consider this Time Travel, we have young and Adult Link. I also account the "Four Sword Cloning" in MC to count as shape-shifting. Wind Waker and PH/ST, which are at the end of the metaphorical timeline, "two of which I havn't finished yet," are based around transportation in a larger, sparsely populated overworld, which actually annoyed the crud out of me.

Seeing as how almost all zelda games fall into one of these two(or three) catagories, I both feel like I'm breaking the mold, if I were to choose something different, but at the same time so rediculously cliche, if I did use one.

Once again, I must emphasise that you should not be afraid of using cliches. Do not put them aside. First of all you forget the 4 biggest cliches: 1) Save the princess 2) Save the world 3) Defeat the bad guy 4) Explore the world.

Cliches are also proofed concepts that can provide a solid base for gameplay and plot. What makes each game different is how those concepts worked out in detail, and mixed with other elements.

Dungeon rhythm has been figured out, and in a 4-1-3-1 style, 4 short, 1 medium, 3 long, 1 long. I have plans and concepts / concept art and layout sketches for several new dungeons, so the dungeon designs shouldn't be too much of a problem to come up with.

...

As for the overworld, I have a map now, and I like it a lot. I'm still deciding whether or not I should combine the castle and the central town, or leave them apart. Aside from that, the geography and it's history and underway. I like the layout, it's fairly central, like Majora's Mask, but at the same time, each wing of the world is independant, like in Links Awakening(in the top five of my favorite games, the both of them.)

Good work, but do not force yourself to keep those. If the plot requires rigorous changes than you should not be afraid to do so.

As for a title, I've been toying with Twilight's Edge, Effigy of Illumination, Dawn of Sorrow, and a few others. However, I'm putting off assigning a "Definite Title" until I have a plot and game-play focus.

Didn't you get some image when you thought up those title's. Or did you thought them up because they sounded cool.

[Dark-Hylian]

Dark-Hylian

Re: Zelda Game Concept discussion

Well! OOA seems to have done exactly what I envisioned. I'm actually really liking my "bad-guy", because coming up with a history for him is fun for several reasons. While, A, I'm "attempting" to avoid cliches, I threaded sorrow into his back-story. But more than the "Main Bad-Guy", the evil in the plot revolves almost equally around the history of the land, of the sins of a certain tribe, and the silent feuds between nations.

When coming up with a title, several ideas, the ones listed below, appealed to me.

Twilight's Edge - When I thought about ideas for a plot, I toyed with the idea of a "OOT" style, light world / dark world. Thus, as the game progresses, the "Twilight" creaps onto the land.

Effigy of Illumination - This one has more tiese to the plot I'm leaning toward now. In Majora's Mask, the whole Ikana / Stone Tower deal, was my favorite part of any Zelda game to date, followed closely by Twilight Princess's Temple of Time and City in the Sky. The history in those areas is so... deep and dark, it could almost have a plot of it's own. The Heaven Spire, in my game's world, is reminiscent of the Stone Tower Temple, and it's dark history, I want it to pull the player in, just like Ikana and the Tower did in Majora's Mask. In this sense, the Effigy is the altar, or "monument" designed to worship some diety or other, the fabrics of the history not quite complete, and the illumination, while it seems a good thing, could symbolize the terror of impending doom, either from the Heaven Spire itself, or some darker force.

Dawn of Sorrow - this was based off of the main "bad-guy", and how his life was consumed by sorrow, and about how he attempts to impress his sorrow upon the land that rejected him.

Out of all of them, I like the Effigy of Illumination the best, because 1.) it's given me an idea for the main gameplay aspect, and 2.) it gives mention and symbolism to the dark and tragic history of this world.


I don't plan on ripping off TP's gaping hole in the sky, but it will probably have something to do with rematerializing via shadows.

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