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Author Topic: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion  (Read 10532 times)

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Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« on: November 13, 2012, 05:49:24 am »
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Well, if you only have a couple hours a day on a pc and you know very little about programming, then my best advice is to find a good programming book.

C++ is the global accepted language for programming games(as far as I know).  You should look into getting a book that you can read in your spare time.  Have a notebook with you so you can write down your thoughts on what you have read, it'll help you remember better since you won't have the computer to play with the code as you read.  A normal C++ beginner's book would be best.  Just browse on Amazon and look for beginner's books that have at least a 4 star rating and have been written or updated within the last couple years or so.

It doesn't have to be C++, though.  Java is easier to get into, and is fine to use.  C# is easier than C++, but some argue against it as it isn't "compiled".  There's also Python.  You could even look into Visual Basic these days.

My two cents would be C++ or Java.  Read the book and formulate ideas in your notebook on how to take what you are reading and translate them into game programming.  Like using variables to store rupees, arrows.  Using variables for speed, position, etc.

Some people will say to start with making a Pong/Tetris game first.  That's up for debate.  IMO, Legend of Zelda(NES) is pretty basic by today's standards and gives you a good foundation to build from if you pursue fan-gaming.

But yeah, get a book and whenever you can use the computer, spend a little time coding what you have read if you can.  You could also look into saving some money.  Laptops are relatively cheap these days.  You can get a decent starter laptop that can handle SDL/DirectX/OpenGL/Game Maker/etc for around $400.  You won't be able to play today's AAA title games like Call of Duty or Battlefield or Skyrim on them with graphics settings maxed out. 

You'll be able to get your designs, ideas, and such together.  You can also program most 2D ideas on it as well.

Might be a bunch of info, but that's where I would've started if I could do it all over again(I miss the 90s :( ).
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Kienamaru

The Idea Man
Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2012, 07:44:43 am »
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I almost cried reading that. You make it all sound so easy, but that's because you've no idea of the boat I'm barely floating in. If I could afford a 400$ laptop I'd already be halfway done with this game. I've not had a dollar to my name in years... and no one in my family has had money to spare that isn't instantly put as grocery money. Hell, we can't even keep a 50$ phone bill paid for 2 straight months. The sad thing is that I'm unemployed and basically all of my time is spare time. If I didn't have to worry about our electric bill coming in too high I'd use a computer pretty much everyday. That's another part of why I say I can't do anything related to actually making this game. It isn't that I'm lazy, I'm literally unable, unless I wanna find myself on the streets.

(Didn't mean to rant but... it's how I'm feeling.)

What's the most likely free way I could do this? Only C++ books I've seen in libraries were about 800 pages and not for beginners at all.
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Starforsaken101

Wake the Beast
Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2012, 12:27:18 pm »
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I almost cried reading that. You make it all sound so easy, but that's because you've no idea of the boat I'm barely floating in. If I could afford a 400$ laptop I'd already be halfway done with this game. I've not had a dollar to my name in years... and no one in my family has had money to spare that isn't instantly put as grocery money. Hell, we can't even keep a 50$ phone bill paid for 2 straight months. The sad thing is that I'm unemployed and basically all of my time is spare time. If I didn't have to worry about our electric bill coming in too high I'd use a computer pretty much everyday. That's another part of why I say I can't do anything related to actually making this game. It isn't that I'm lazy, I'm literally unable, unless I wanna find myself on the streets.

(Didn't mean to rant but... it's how I'm feeling.)

What's the most likely free way I could do this? Only C++ books I've seen in libraries were about 800 pages and not for beginners at all.

You can start looking at http://www.cplusplus.com/ for some free references. I have used this a countless amount of times while coding in C++.

You don't have to force yourself to learn a "real" programming language if you don't want to. I get what TFS is saying; it is beneficial and just generally more badass if you code your game in something like C++ or C# because it opens so many doors...however, from what I recall you're looking into game design as a career, and that's not really THAT important for something like that.

I'm really sorry about your situation at home :S. If you need any help getting started programming let me know. Hell, there are a lot of really talented programmers on this website who can help (TFS being one of them).
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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 12:32:32 pm »
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What about (I believe someone out there is saying "well, !@#$% you, Blaze", and I'm even breaking the rules)... getting a crack for it? When I saw that the pro version of GM 8 was 500$ I searched for a crack.
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Linkxp500

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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 10:49:41 pm »
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What about (I believe someone out there is saying "well, !@#$% you, Blaze", and I'm even breaking the rules)... getting a crack for it? When I saw that the pro version of GM 8 was 500$ I searched for a crack.


That's not necessarily the immediate issue here.  Though, regardless of the questionable legality of that suggestion, that certainly would ease down the cost of getting into the project for real.


Also, I literally had no idea Kienamaru was neck-deep in financial ruin.  I had assumed that he merely had to use a shared computer when he is on it.


About being unemployed... well, like I said elsewhere Kienamaru, you need to be persistent.  You won't find a job overnight, but you will eventually if you don't quit.


I'm sorry if I can't be too helpful regarding your frustration.
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Humans are never perfect.  They make mistakes that teach them what to do differently.  Humans also possess the ability to repeat those mistakes.  That's why humans are never perfect.

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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2012, 11:02:36 pm »
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I'm saying to crack it until you can afford it. That was what I plan, but I'm probably moving myself to C++, as a friend of mine will be teaching me something.
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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2012, 11:55:13 pm »
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Why crack a program like Game Maker when you get more functionality out of language and libraries for free?  Not to mention, do you really use the registered features in a Zelda game?  Image_angle is now available in the lite version.  Maybe some mp functions that are are somewhat A based which you could code yourself.  External resources maybe?

If he is starting from the beginning, there is no reason at all for him to use Game Maker unless he plans to never really get into real programming.  It's fine for fan-gaming, rapid dev prototyping(but you can achieve this in programming libraries with practice), and a quick way to get HTML 5 stuff together(but there are free alternatives as well).

Trust me(and others), Game Maker is not the best kind of software at all to learn until after you learn a real language.  Then , Game Maker is awesome for rapidly throwing your ideas together without having to program game loops, windows, view ports, inputs, etc. like you would with a library.  It teaches bad habits and as far as I can still see, eats up an unnecessary amount of CPU and RAM still.

I have seen stuff peak my cpu at 100% on a 2.8ghz clocked i7 and eat up over 250 megs of ram with externally loaded resources and maps.
Best example was when I was programming a UN Squadron remake.  My prototype in Game Maker was rocking around 80 megs of ram and I hadn't even had one level finished yet, where-as my XNA port(re-loading right now) is running at 29 megs in the first level.

Game Maker would be the !@#$% if you could export projects into different languages, hell even a C++ export option would be awesome since last I heard GM uses C++ and Direct X for Windows.

But yeah, I went off-topic, but I sincerely believe that Game Maker is still not a good starting point for a novice programmer who may want to be taken seriously someday.  Maybe down the road , Game Maker will gain more ground, but it's not even close yet.
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Linkxp500

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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 02:21:42 am »
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Well, I'll take your word for it, Theforeshadower.  I would agree that taking the easy way out in the short term could harm true progress in the long term in general.


I don't know much about the world of programming except that I have a keen interest in how programs actually work.  For some reason, I tend to analyze every game I play, without looking at code, about how the game does this or that and how long I have to wait for certain things to happen that could have happened far more quickly.  You could say that "it's what's on the inside that counts." :P


People take for granted that creating games is a piece of cake... until they try it themselves.  Sure, games could be very low scale, but they wouldn't be interesting for long.  And it takes months to years to make a truly worthwhile game, which is then taken for granted by the general ignorance of casual gamers, or hardcore gamers that are purely gamers and not intellectuals.


There I go off-topic, just like you.  I feel closer to being a programmer already. :P
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The only thing I hate about the name Link is that when you Google the character Link you end up clicking a link to a link that usually doesn't mention someone named Link.

Humans are never perfect.  They make mistakes that teach them what to do differently.  Humans also possess the ability to repeat those mistakes.  That's why humans are never perfect.

"Do, or do not... there is no try." - Yoda, from Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

"Who's the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Old Ben Kenobi, from Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope

Starforsaken101

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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 03:16:53 am »
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Well, I'll take your word for it, Theforeshadower.  I would agree that taking the easy way out in the short term could harm true progress in the long term in general.


I don't know much about the world of programming except that I have a keen interest in how programs actually work.  For some reason, I tend to analyze every game I play, without looking at code, about how the game does this or that and how long I have to wait for certain things to happen that could have happened far more quickly.  You could say that "it's what's on the inside that counts." :P


People take for granted that creating games is a piece of cake... until they try it themselves.  Sure, games could be very low scale, but they wouldn't be interesting for long.  And it takes months to years to make a truly worthwhile game, which is then taken for granted by the general ignorance of casual gamers, or hardcore gamers that are purely gamers and not intellectuals.


There I go off-topic, just like you.  I feel closer to being a programmer already. :P

lol at people thinking that games are a piece of cake. Just...lol.

Back on topic, Kienamaru should choose whatever he wants. From a discussion I had with him earlier, he's striving to become a game designer. Design does not require in depth knowledge of programming. If he wants to get something done with Game Maker, then let him be. In his case, it's the design that counts.
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Linkxp500

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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 05:47:56 am »
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Back on topic, Kienamaru should choose whatever he wants. From a discussion I had with him earlier, he's striving to become a game designer. Design does not require in depth knowledge of programming. If he wants to get something done with Game Maker, then let him be. In his case, it's the design that counts.


Well, it seems that he can't really be effective with Game Maker if he's limited to 2 hours on the computer per day.  That's agonizing to most people who use computers regularly.  I know I couldn't handle that kind of limit for more than 2 days at most. :P


Even if he did manage to use it effectively, he'd still be at a loss for being a game designer should he have his own team of developers in his own business or someone else's business.  I've met and spoken to at great length some very talented, and I dare say overly fanatical, project developers (not limited to games, but to all aspects of software development) for their field in game design.  They know a great deal of programming, animating, modelling, and texturing despite their roles as project managers.


What I mean to say is, a project leader/game designer is far more valuable the more they know about all the aspects that they help organize into the project.  It also allows greater communication and better understanding of different possible combinations that make up any portion of the project/game.


But, you have to note this.  Even if you know a lot about any part of a project, because you don't specialize in any specific area, you are prone to limited understanding of those areas.  However, it does not mean it's hopeless at that point.  As you progress in your career, you tend to gather a lot of new info about various things that will strengthen your effectiveness as a game designer.


Like TFS said, bigger steps toward discovery lead to greater amounts of knowledge, and less work and frustration down the road.


To get just a bit of easy to follow knowledge on how programming works, try Java (being the most widely used application language for so many apps) or Python (Very simple to understand, yet it lacks a truly useful basis for understanding coding, as it is highly adaptable to the user rather than a more uniform and organized set of functions; basically, it's like teaching one group of kids Spanish and teaching another group Korean, there's no way for them to convert to the other language easily).


C, C#, and C++ are similar, but do have very distinctive qualities that separate themselves from each other (which I cannot remember at the moment, and too lazy to look it up now).
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The only thing I hate about the name Link is that when you Google the character Link you end up clicking a link to a link that usually doesn't mention someone named Link.

Humans are never perfect.  They make mistakes that teach them what to do differently.  Humans also possess the ability to repeat those mistakes.  That's why humans are never perfect.

"Do, or do not... there is no try." - Yoda, from Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

"Who's the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Old Ben Kenobi, from Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope

Kienamaru

The Idea Man
Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 11:19:57 am »
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If I were to say that I were a quick learner and had a high level of understanding but a low level of math understanding... how long would you all assume it would take me to learn a decent amount of C++? What would be a good rate to study it at?
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Linkxp500

Intellectual Pseudo-Swordsman
Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 03:09:32 pm »
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If I were to say that I were a quick learner and had a high level of understanding but a low level of math understanding... how long would you all assume it would take me to learn a decent amount of C++? What would be a good rate to study it at?

Um, not really sure how long... but if you are indeed quick at learning and have a high level of comprehension, math shouldn't really be a problem unless you are still working on basic mathematics.  Though I'd say Algebra would be very helpful in this endeavor.

You see, coding involves lots of variables.  Say you wanted to create a program (for basic reference) that would show either Yes or No if an occurence is present or not.  If you've heard of Boolean logic, this is actually a no-brainer.  Say you have an if/then statement that goes something like this.

Code: [Select]
If Health = 0
  Then GameEnd = 1

In this example, if the player reaches 0 health (note that those variables may be labeled differently in different engines), then it's game over for the player.

That isn't Boolean logic, but it has some similarity to it.  A Boolean line of code looks something like this.

Code: [Select]
;Show Health Bar (Default is 1)
;Possible Values
;0
;1
bShowHealthHUD=1

Also note here that depending on the engine, the variable (bShowHealthHUD) will be different.  Also note the semi-colons in front of the first 4 lines of code.  This ensures that these lines are not read, otherwise it could result in game instability.


If you have taken Algebra at all, you'd notice that variables are present throughout the course.  For more complicated games, such as those commercial games for consoles, you'd also need to have some knowledge of more advanced mathematical procedures, which you won't really need if you decide to be a game designer.


However, Algebra is a complete must for any field involving computer technology.

Oh, and just so you know, I did cut out some code from the if/then statement.  So it isn't as simple as stating If this, then that.  It can end up stacking if/then statements depending on different values for a variable.

It would also include a Begin/End statement for that If/Then statement to occur.

Each script works with one another much like ants work to improve their anthills.  Or like the internet itself, since it's basically run by a giant network of scripts.  One incorrectly compiled script makes the entire project crumble, until the error is found and fixed.  And if that fix interrupts another part of the script, you need to fix that too, and so on and so forth, until you have a program that is stable enough to play, with the occasional glitch.  Even after that, most programmers try their best to optimize (meaning use less coding lines while still peforming as it was intended) the scripting so that it runs faster and achieves better results.

That's why I like programming so much.  It is like improving yourself to perfection without actually reaching perfection.  In other words, it simulates life.  I also view a programmer as the computer improving version of a biogenetic engineer.  You have the power to manipulate the genetic make-up of your guinea pig project.  As you learn more about the traits of that project, you apply it to another project and see the effects those changes on that one.

... I'm ranting again. :P

I seem to think way too deeply sometimes. XD

But yeah, it doesn't take long to understand programming, just some patience reading it and making sure you understand what does what.

Let me tell you a secret though.  Once you learn one language, it makes learning other programming languages that much easier, but just how much easier depends on what language you start with.  C++ is the more professional and widely used language, but Python is far easier for a beginner.  C# is somewhere in between.  And depending on your way of thinking is, C++ or Python may be better for understanding future languages, or C# could be your gateway to other languages if you can adapt very well to change.  When comparing C++ with Python, C++ is better for future professional work in programming, while Python is used to create apps for casual use.  Python isn't useless as a language, but it isn't used in the industry, so only use Python if you aren't a serious programmer.  C++ is more worthwhile a language in the industry, more structured, but isn't very easy to understand if you start there.  C++ also has more functionality for programs.

And before you ask how I know this when I'm not too experienced with programming, it's because of research and intellectual discussions with other internet users.  It's more fun than trolling, honestly.  I like heated discussions as well, as long as no one goes off or a moderator/administrator cuts off the debate/argument.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 05:26:51 pm by Linkxp500 »
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Humans are never perfect.  They make mistakes that teach them what to do differently.  Humans also possess the ability to repeat those mistakes.  That's why humans are never perfect.

"Do, or do not... there is no try." - Yoda, from Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

"Who's the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Old Ben Kenobi, from Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope
Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 04:35:59 pm »
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I might also add that if you have access to an Android phone, there are many free apps that are basically books on C++, Java, C#, Python, etc.

Just go to the Play Store and search "programming" and watch the results flood in :)
Yeah, it'll be on a small screen, but it's better than nothing.
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Kienamaru

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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 11:10:52 pm »
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So I'll be trying to get into C++ and C# and for God's sake, this confuses me more than coding itself. Is # flat or sharp?


Also, I understand some variable stuff already, it and if then statements are a part of PSA, the part that I'm currently bad at.
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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 11:54:35 pm »
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After you get a good grasp on C++/C#, then you would need to look into programming libraries such as:
SDL(Cross-platform ie Linux/Windows/Mac/IPhone/Android)
OpenGL(not a library per say, but lazyfoo.net has all the info you need on it to get started)
DirectX for Windows(and probably Win 8 tablets/phones and the next XBOX)
OpenTK
OpenAL
SFML
Allegro
There are others too, just google for game libraries or game programming libraries.

Not trying to overload you, just giving you the heads-up that just learning the language is the beginning.  To actually begin GAME PROGRAMMING(as opposed to console programming which most books/tutorials start with still), you'll need a library as I don't think yo want to make a 1980s Zelda text adventure XD
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Kienamaru

The Idea Man
Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 12:14:58 am »
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Thanks foreshadower. I know this topic was supposed to be about Shadow of Liimina... but I sorta got off track when I was thinking about which program to use to make it.

AHEM, so I'll try and think of more for it now. (sorry dudes)
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Linkxp500

Intellectual Pseudo-Swordsman
Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 02:29:05 am »
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Is # flat or sharp?


I have no idea what you mean by that, honestly. XD  It's pronounced "Number" if that's what you were asking.

Also, I understand some variable stuff already, it and if then statements are a part of PSA, the part that I'm currently bad at.


I always thought if then statements were the most basic part of a script.  You ask it "if this happens, then this happens, OR if that happens, then that happens."


It's a series of conditionals.  If you meet the prerequisite for one IF statement, that triggers the THEN statement to be read.  If you don't meet the prerequisite of one IF statement, the program looks for alternatives that match the condition that it has.
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The only thing I hate about the name Link is that when you Google the character Link you end up clicking a link to a link that usually doesn't mention someone named Link.

Humans are never perfect.  They make mistakes that teach them what to do differently.  Humans also possess the ability to repeat those mistakes.  That's why humans are never perfect.

"Do, or do not... there is no try." - Yoda, from Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

"Who's the more foolish?  The fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Old Ben Kenobi, from Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope

Kienamaru

The Idea Man
Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 07:46:52 am »
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Holy wow, I didn't know it was number. Thanks.
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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 11:41:30 am »
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Is # flat or sharp?


I have no idea what you mean by that, honestly. XD  It's pronounced "Number" if that's what you were asking.

I believe he was asking how to pronounce the coding language. If so:
The coding language "C#" is pronounced "see sharp", unless I've been saying it wrong all these years. :P

In music "#" is sharp and "b" is flat, but that doesn't really matter.
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Kienamaru

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Re: Shadow of Liimina Programming Discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 12:04:36 pm »
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Is # flat or sharp?


I have no idea what you mean by that, honestly. XD  It's pronounced "Number" if that's what you were asking.

I believe he was asking how to pronounce the coding language. If so:
The coding language "C#" is pronounced "see sharp", unless I've been saying it wrong all these years. :P

In music "#" is sharp and "b" is flat, but that doesn't really matter.


That's what I was asking. I've been callin it sharp.
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SoL Sprite Thread: http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=39913.0
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