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Author Topic: It's Simply a Matter of Time  (Read 3518 times)

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Hammer Bro. Mike

Hammer Bro. Mike
It's Simply a Matter of Time
« on: October 15, 2009, 05:38:41 pm »
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http://www.zeldainformer.com/2009/10/its-simply-a-matter-of-time.php#more

I got to agree with this. It's got some interesting points. It's also another way of showing how awesome Majora's Mask is. XD
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  • Zelda Eternity
Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2009, 05:53:27 pm »
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Interesting. It's too bad Majora as a boss kind of sucked.
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Mamoruanime

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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2009, 11:11:18 pm »
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Hmm... Didn't really change my opinion involving MM being one of the weakest games in the series, and that Majora was my least favorite villian of ALL time (not just in Zelda, but in all games) due to how weak of a character he is in comparison to how much the game forces everyone else down your throat.

I probably would have liked MM more if it had nothing to do with Majora, and it had more dungeons. Even sparing the sub-par character development from the black pit of hell I want to send it to, I think it would have been better if it were about Vaati, or some other character.

The time constraint made me feel like Nintendo didn't want people playing it the way you're supposed to play zelda games--- explore and dungeon crawl. Instead they stripped away what makes Zelda "Zelda", and decided to make everyone feel rushed. Ruined the experience entirely, even though the "rushed" feeling is superficial.

Anyway; this game is an overly glorified expansion to a game that is far superior in every way. Not sure why people keep beating a dead horse over and over again, but for a lot of people Majora's Mask was their "first" zelda game, courtesy of being naive and young when it came out. Of course it's loved.
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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2009, 12:13:33 am »
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but for a lot of people Majora's Mask was their "first" zelda game, courtesy of being naive and young when it came out. Of course it's loved.

Maybe the reason you like older Zelda games more is because you were young and naive when they came out.  Didn't think of that, did ya?? Huh?? Ya !@#$%!!

(joking at the end there…)

Seriously though, that's a !@#$% argument that you hear all the time about everything; "people only like [insert some thing here] because they were young when they experienced it".  I don't think that makes for a very good argument.  When people grow up they can look back at things they used to like and know it was !@#$%—they won't be filled with lifelong delusions that whatever they like as a kid will be great forever.  People know what they like and what they don't like.  …And there's people who are the same age as you who played Majora's Mask at the same time you did, and love the game.

Or whatever…
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 10:42:28 am by Shefali »
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Mamoruanime

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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2009, 12:24:10 am »
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Not really though; You see- I played Zelda 1 when I was verrry young, and it's one of the first games I ever beat (before I was 5). I love lttp, but that came out way after I had already experienced Zelda 1 and 2, and it's probably one of my favorites.

I have however mentioned that I think I only really like Zelda 2 for the same reason I've mentioned that most people like Majora's Mask.

Let's face it, not everyone here had video games before they were in school. Most didn't get into gaming until OoT and MM came out, or even didn't comprehend it until then. I look back fondly on games like Super Mario Bros for the NES, even though the game is generally !@#$%.

For me personally, by the time I had an N64, I had already experienced many systems and games before then, and actually understood them enough to beat them. I was a little late getting to Majora's Mask and Ocarina of Time. I dislike MM, and think OoT is far superior, but still not the greatest game. I credit not caring about the hype for my general clear view on if it's a good game or not.

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Hammer Bro. Mike

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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2009, 12:37:02 am »
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ZeldaInformer's got a lot of interesting articles to read up, my favorite being this one:
http://www.zeldainformer.com/2008/05/the-message-of-majoras-mask.php

...which you should read while listening to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0ZTyCxbdok

I think the main villains should be more involved throughout your quest. For example, say someone from one village tells you to go to another village to speak to somebody who will help you progress through the game except on your way there, you run into the villain and then he destroys that village. You go to find the person but everyone is dead and you have to find another option as to what that specific character was supposed to tell you. That's just me.

Interesting. It's too bad Majora as a boss kind of sucked.
If you face him enough times, he can be. I still find it fun killing him as Fierce Deity but the whole thing only lasts 1-2 minutes.
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  • Zelda Eternity

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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2009, 02:28:18 am »
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Majora's Mask was my third Zelda game (first was LttP, second was OoT) and though it is not my favorite in the series, I feel it is an outstanding game for the very reasons Mammy hates it: the world-building is incredibly strong, and the rushed feel of the game makes you feel responsible for everything, like the world really does hang on your shoulders. It's a brilliant work of atmosphere.

That being said, I do feel that the game needed more dungeons.
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well i dont have that system and it is very hard to care about everything when you are single
Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2009, 05:44:26 am »
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Blah Blah Blah stuff about Majora's Mask sucking.
So basically, you want Majora's Mask to be like every other Zelda game ever. God forbid Nintendo actually tries to do something new, they should just rehash the same game over and over again.

I agree that Majora was a weak villain, but he has like two minutes of screentime when he isn't possessing the Skull Kid. Not much time to become memorable, but Majora's Mask isn't about the villain. Majora's Mask is about the world and people of Termina, and the effect the Skull Kid has on them. Over the three days you learn people's routines and help them overcome problems directly or indirectly caused by the Skull Kid. You come to actually feel something for many of the characters, and feel sad when Anju is back to searching for Kafei, and Kafei is once again hiding behind a mask. I've never cared about the characters in any Zelda game more then in Majora's Mask.

EDIT: Whoops. That's what I get for just reading the article title and looking at the pretty pictures. Irrelevant sentences deleted.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 06:03:57 am by Takuthehedgehog »
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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2009, 05:55:41 pm »
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Discussion aside. That was some good reading you linked to, Yubel. Thanks.
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Mamoruanime

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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2009, 11:42:39 pm »
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Blah Blah Blah stuff about Majora's Mask sucking.
So basically, you want Majora's Mask to be like every other Zelda game ever. God forbid Nintendo actually tries to do something new, they should just rehash the same game over and over again.

Uh. You play a game that's part of a franchise because it follows a noticeable pattern in gameplay.

People who play Final Fantasy hated which ones in the series?

*points at 11 and 12, and a very little bit of 10*

Why?

They changed the formula that made the franchise what it is today.

SCENARIO!

Majora's Mask has more development time. No constraints that held them back from making the game fantastic; 7 dungeons, more "reason" to bother with the NPCs, and less of a rushed feeling. What would be the result? It would be an amazing game. You'd have the ability to truly explore again, and enjoy the dungeons you're in. Not have the annoying restrictions of a bugged saving system, and you probably wouldn't have such a stupid ass premise to the game.

It's an expansion. Always was meant to be. It was only sold as a stand alone game the way it was because of N64DD's failure and time constraints.
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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2009, 01:12:23 am »
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Actually I think the time limit and repeating schedules enhanced the explorable nature of the game, days were slightly different providing many interesting experiences.

The time limit wasn't really there, sure you had to eventually go back to day one but I never did 3 in-game days of non-stop exploring anyway and honestly doubt anyone could do so without reaching a point they can whip-out the ocarina without losing anything.

The world was static, but at the same time appeared changing. It's not like every 3 days were totally different, what you didn't explore in one you could easily explore the next ground hog day.

World exploring in OoT was fun for awhile but it didn't feel like it mattered really, sure you find some heart piece on a ledge...erm, what else? And the Dungeons sometimes got to the point you just got fed it and left for awhile, and didn't really want to come back (Water Temple, dear god the Water Temple).

LttP's world exploring was much more fun that OoT's, and MM just had those zany catches like almost everyone actually having a life that made it that bit more interesting.

Being able to refight bosses was a fun touch too. Sometimes I'd go the the Swamp just to beat the !@#$% out of the boss there XD

And Expansions in my experience tend to have a greater emphasis on character development and plot than the originals. Character Development was almost none-existent in OoT, MM was full of it, and it repeated and changed based on your actions in the days ^^
« Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 01:14:50 am by TheDarkJay »
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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2009, 05:23:25 am »
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Blah Blah Blah stuff about Majora's Mask sucking.
So basically, you want Majora's Mask to be like every other Zelda game ever. God forbid Nintendo actually tries to do something new, they should just rehash the same game over and over again.

Uh. You play a game that's part of a franchise because it follows a noticeable pattern in gameplay.
And that gameplay isn't there? I could've sworn you go through dungeons collecting items, solving puzzles, and using your sword to !@#$% up a bunch of monsters. Nintendo didn't change the formula, they added to it. That's what sequels are supposed to do. The core gameplay is still there, they just added a timer and three other forms of combat that you don't even have to utilize. The timer shouldn't even be an issue for anyone, you have two and a half hours to beat any given dungeon. There isn't a single dungeon in the entire series that takes two and a half hours to 100%. You can even come back on another cycle to get the stray fairies since you have all the necessary items to get through the dungeon.
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Mamoruanime

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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2009, 06:14:37 am »
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Blah Blah Blah stuff about Majora's Mask sucking.
So basically, you want Majora's Mask to be like every other Zelda game ever. God forbid Nintendo actually tries to do something new, they should just rehash the same game over and over again.

Uh. You play a game that's part of a franchise because it follows a noticeable pattern in gameplay.
And that gameplay isn't there? I could've sworn you go through dungeons collecting items, solving puzzles, and using your sword to !@#$% up a bunch of monsters. Nintendo didn't change the formula, they added to it. That's what sequels are supposed to do. The core gameplay is still there, they just added a timer and three other forms of combat that you don't even have to utilize. The timer shouldn't even be an issue for anyone, you have two and a half hours to beat any given dungeon. There isn't a single dungeon in the entire series that takes two and a half hours to 100%. You can even come back on another cycle to get the stray fairies since you have all the necessary items to get through the dungeon.

You're missing one key point to your argument that somewhat invalidates any possible way it could matter-

The fact that my views on the game are purely personal opinion.

I didn't like what they did with the game. Period.

The game didn't feel like a zelda game to me, therefor it's the weakest game in the series to me.

They removed some core elements that made the series enjoyable to me in the first place, so obviously this one doesn't rank very high for me.

Wind Waker was the same way for me as well; it ranked very low on my enjoyment scale. A little higher than MM, but still well below any of the other ones.
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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2009, 09:50:12 am »
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http://www.zeldainformer.com/2009/10/its-simply-a-matter-of-time.php#more

I got to agree with this. It's got some interesting points. It's also another way of showing how awesome Majora's Mask is. XD

I don't know why you agree with this because the guy doesn't even know what he is talking about. It is all hot air that he blows. Seriously where does he go with his reasoning.

Quote
We can look to any classic tale to see that the predicament of time is what truly makes a villain daunting. In The Lord of The Rings, the Ring must be destroyed before Sauron obtains it, so that he can't turn the world into darkness. In Harry Potter, Voldemort must be stopped before he accomplishes his goal. Even in The Matrix, Neo must succeed at a stopping the machines, otherwise Zion will be destroyed, along with human existence.

He is talking about books and a movie. The reader and watcher are forced to continue along the preset path of the story. They can stop reading and put a pause on the movie, but they can't stray of the path. Go to their respective games and the player can stray of the path and do something else and the big bad guy will still be waiting. In books the time element can seem threatening, but in games it does not work. If you are putting a time constraint on the game, you need very little to do or make the obstacles and enemies so easy that people can actually complete the game. No one is going to like it, because you can't win due to a time constraint. And especially when you've put in 15 hours of playing as well and then find out you're out of time.

He says that Majora is more threatening because there is the three day time limit. This BS, because Link can go to the Bahama's for 3 days and at the end of those three will automatically be put back to the first day. Hell he can go explore all he wants, because the three days continue anyway. In fact the groundhog day effect makes it even less rushed, because if you don't make it in time it isn't seen as a punishment, due to the premise of the game. You can search infinitely for the 1-hit-KO trick (read Fierce Deity). In my first go at the game I already obtained the mask and less than 1 minute later I was watching the credits. I had a harder time with the other 4 bosses. It was kinda disappointing.

Vaati's, three gongs thread in MC is also hollow, because in between the gongs if Link needs to refresh himself he can walk out of the castle and he doesn't need to beat the darknuts again. The gongs even reset. Not to mention that you have an indefinite amount of time between gongs. Vaati will be waiting at the end, just like majora and every villain in videogame history. The deal that makes Vaati a meaner villain then Majora, is that the end fight takes a lot longer and in the various stages Link needs to use almost every weapon and technique obtained in MC.

Bellum of the Phantom Hourglass, was even a bigger threat. He hid in a temple that actually had a time limit. In that temple there was no lingering and goofing around because you would actually die if it took to long. Still in the overworld the threat of him sucking the lifeforce is hardly noticed. But so what, it would put a big dumper on the exploring aspect that is key in a Zelda game.

But Majora, Onox, Veran, and Bellum all have one thing in common that make them wimps compared to Dethl and Ganon. Those 4 all failed in what they set out to do.
Majora sure made the lives of the people miserable, but that is what the skull kid wanted. Majora wanted to crash the moon and destroy Termina. No success there.
Onox wanted the powers over the Season and Veran wanted power over time. Well most of you know what happend there.
Bellum wanted to suck all the lifeforce away and FAILED miserably.

Vaati is somewhere in between. In MC he wanted the light force, but failed to obtain it. In the FSA he wanted to rule Hyrule and for a short time he did. Until four Links beat the crap out of him.

Dethl was successful, because he kept the Windfish in his sleep for ages and ruled Koholinth. His rule wasn't really noticeable, because a new balance of life and society had already set in. His rule came to an end when Link showed up.

Ganon is the biggest bad guy in the Zelda series. Not because he is the villain in many games, but because he more often than not succeeds (sometimes in a lesser degree) in what he set out to do.
LOZ: He conquered Hyrule and held Zelda captive. He even obtained part of the triforce. Until Link came along.
ALttP: In the prologue he set out to capture the golden power and he obtained it. He was sealed though, but he had it. In the game he used the 7 maidens to open a portal to Hyrule and let his evil corrupt Hyrule. Link failed to stop this, but he succeeded in taking the triforce away from him.
OOT: Ganon set out to conquer Hyrule and get the Triforce. He only got the Triforce of power, but he conquered Hyrule. In the future world of Hyrule, Castle Town is filled with death and destruction. Almost all the Gorons have fled. Zora's domain is completely frozen along with the Zora. Kokiri village is overrun by monster plants. He killed two Deities. And in the 7 years under Ganons rule, the Hylians have build a new life in Kakriko Village. Even the Gerudo's are feeling the pressure of his rule.
TWW: This is the only game where Ganon actually failed. He was out to obtain the complete Triforce, but when he almost succeeded the King of Hyrule grasped it away and made his wish first.
TP: Once again he conquers Hyrule, by covering it completely in Twilight. That Link lifts the Twilight afterwards, helps Ganon return to a flesh and blood body in Hyrule. Still he is beaten by Link afterwards.
It is true that Ganon is waiting for Link to show up in his tower, but that is true for every videogame. The final boss will always be at the end of the final level, no matter how long it takes you to get there. But besides that. Ganon most often had already succeeded in doing what he wanted and there is nothing that he has to beat Link to it first. Secondly it is wise decision of combat to have the battle area to your advantage. If the enemies target is you, let him come to you and don't go searching for him.
Finnally the thing that makes Ganon greater then all the others; is that in the games he is guy of normal heritage (gerudo/hylian), but has obtained power of his own accord without the help of an artifact. He even has beaten the aging process. Even though in some games it looks as if he is killed, but that fate can often be disputed. In most games he is sealed and in others he is resurrected. This indicates that he has obtained a modicum of immortality. Ganon has become some kind of Deity in his own right.

I think the main villains should be more involved throughout your quest. For example, say someone from one village tells you to go to another village to speak to somebody who will help you progress through the game except on your way there, you run into the villain and then he destroys that village. You go to find the person but everyone is dead and you have to find another option as to what that specific character was supposed to tell you. That's just me.
True, but that has more to do with character development and story, than with how badass and threatening the final boss is at the end of the game.
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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2009, 06:01:20 pm »
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Blah Blah Blah stuff about Majora's Mask sucking.
So basically, you want Majora's Mask to be like every other Zelda game ever. God forbid Nintendo actually tries to do something new, they should just rehash the same game over and over again.

Uh. You play a game that's part of a franchise because it follows a noticeable pattern in gameplay.
And that gameplay isn't there? I could've sworn you go through dungeons collecting items, solving puzzles, and using your sword to !@#$% up a bunch of monsters. Nintendo didn't change the formula, they added to it. That's what sequels are supposed to do. The core gameplay is still there, they just added a timer and three other forms of combat that you don't even have to utilize. The timer shouldn't even be an issue for anyone, you have two and a half hours to beat any given dungeon. There isn't a single dungeon in the entire series that takes two and a half hours to 100%. You can even come back on another cycle to get the stray fairies since you have all the necessary items to get through the dungeon.

You're missing one key point to your argument that somewhat invalidates any possible way it could matter-

The fact that my views on the game are purely personal opinion.
And had you not said things like people only like MM because they played it when it was little I wouldn't have bothered arguing with your opinion. If you're going to argue that my opinion is wrong because I was a kid when I played Majora's Mask, I'm going to argue your opinion is wrong because they didn't actually remove anything from the formula.
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Mamoruanime

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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 02:09:09 am »
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Blah Blah Blah stuff about Majora's Mask sucking.
So basically, you want Majora's Mask to be like every other Zelda game ever. God forbid Nintendo actually tries to do something new, they should just rehash the same game over and over again.

Uh. You play a game that's part of a franchise because it follows a noticeable pattern in gameplay.
And that gameplay isn't there? I could've sworn you go through dungeons collecting items, solving puzzles, and using your sword to !@#$% up a bunch of monsters. Nintendo didn't change the formula, they added to it. That's what sequels are supposed to do. The core gameplay is still there, they just added a timer and three other forms of combat that you don't even have to utilize. The timer shouldn't even be an issue for anyone, you have two and a half hours to beat any given dungeon. There isn't a single dungeon in the entire series that takes two and a half hours to 100%. You can even come back on another cycle to get the stray fairies since you have all the necessary items to get through the dungeon.

You're missing one key point to your argument that somewhat invalidates any possible way it could matter-

The fact that my views on the game are purely personal opinion.
And had you not said things like people only like MM because they played it when it was little I wouldn't have bothered arguing with your opinion. If you're going to argue that my opinion is wrong because I was a kid when I played Majora's Mask, I'm going to argue your opinion is wrong because they didn't actually remove anything from the formula.

If you notice, I said "but for a lot of people Majora's Mask was their "first" zelda game, courtesy of being naive and young when it came out. Of course it's loved.". I didn't say for "all" people, I said "a lot" of people. Needless to say, it is true. For a lot of people it's their favorite because of when it came out. I love Zelda 2, but why? The game isn't super fantastic or anything. It's generic. I love it because it came out when it did.

You're getting too defensive over something a little insignificant like a video game that came out 11 years ago <_<;;
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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 02:26:55 am »
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Yeah, I don't want to jump into anyone else's arguments, just got a few cents of my own. That was a pretty good read and a real sense of growing danger is something I always felt was missing from most Zelda games, but couldn't really put my finger on exactly what the feeling was.

But I don't think the 3 Days in Majora's Mask is a good example. Depending on when you ask me, that game will be somewhere in my top 3 for the series. The "time limit" wasn't real though. It showed characters lives progressing and changing over that short course of time, which is a great point of interest, but you can rewind the time whenever you want and essentially be no further back in the quest, and it still gave you enough time to do plenty of exploring and dungeon crawling. I'd call it more of a simple (but deep in storytelling potential) game mechanic than an instilled sense of urgency.

On the other hand, there were several times in other major games where you think you've accomplished something, and it turns out things have turned for the worse. You get the 3rd spiritual stone and suddenly Zelda's running for her life. You take the Master Sword and you've inadvertently unleashed Ganondorf on the world, only to find out when you wake up as an adult. You think you've rescued Arryl, but not only does Link fail, he finds himself on Ganon's !@#$%-list. These are the kinds of story hooks that pull me in and give me just that sense of urgency, when they aren't overdone or predictable.

Not to mention, Twilight Princess did have a handful of those tense, time-limit situations, like being trapped on the fiery bridge, or carting the Zora prince through dangerous territory. Those were on the right track for the game IMO, and I would have liked a few more of those situations.

Main point from the article still taken though - all in all, whatsisname just seems to wait in the final castle to be defeated. I'd be happy if the next major Zelda game focuses on the big bad(s) causing more crises or forcing fast, important decisions, more than trying to be innovative with the dungeon puzzles and items.

Screw you Yahtzee, bombs and boomerangs and arrows are a staple of these games and I can't wait to collect them. XD
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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2009, 05:24:05 am »
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You're getting too defensive over something a little insignificant like a video game that came out 11 years ago <_<;;
I got a vibe from the way your worded your first reply that you thought I was an idiot or something, which isn't a great when you come back to a forum for the first time in six months and that's the first reply directed at you. You probably didn't even mean it and I just read way too much into stuff...
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Re: It's Simply a Matter of Time
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2009, 10:11:56 pm »
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Majora's Mask to me was just decent enough to beat once then sell.


My thing with Zelda games are their stories.
The main issue with Majora's Mask(and TWW) I have is being a child in the game.
I grew up playing LOZ, Z2, LTTP, and OOT(I didn't get the chance to play LA until like 2002 :( ).
I almost always pictured Link as myself as I immersed my imagination into the game.
When OOT came out it finally made my imaginations "grow up" so to speak.
Playing as a 17 year old when I was 11 and the new more adult themes and emotions to the game changed what I wanted from a Zelda game.

I didn't really want to play as a child anymore in a 3D zelda game.  In my opinion the persona of Link had grown up and should stay that way.

Both MM and WW did not have the adult feelings and emotions I wanted in a Zelda game.
Yes, MM had some really dark themes, but it had nothing that I myself as a teenager at that time could relate to.

If I was a kid and played MM and WW, I probably would've liked them better.
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