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[YoVoBaller]

YoVoBaller

Serparation from Church and State

Somewhere it was stated that on this forum, there's supposed to be seperation from church and state... In NO LEGAL DOCUMENT was that ever stated. It was a LETTER to the Danbury Baptists.  Here's the portion of the letter, and some views upon it:


<I>Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists is the basis for separation of church and state. Some people try to claim that this quote from Thomas Jefferson establishes the "separation of church and state" that we now have today:

    "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ???make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,??? thus building a wall of separation between Church and State". 1

The first problem with that assertion is that this quote is not from an official government document.  The second is that it was Jefferson's original intent that this meant that the church was to be protected from the government, not the reverse. </I>

The "separation from church and state" wasn't to get religion out of government, it was to clarify, that Government should interfere religion.

<I>Research by David Barton, founder of Wallbuilders, Inc. exposes the alleged separation of church and state for the myth that it really is. The words separation of church and state don't appear in any official government documents authored by the founding fathers.  This concept and these particular words were invented by an ACLU attorney named Leo Pfeffer in 1947  in the Supreme Court case of  Everson versus Board of Education of Ewing Township. That liberal supreme court imposed it on the nation by a 5 to 4 vote.  The ACLU and other anti-Christian organizations and individuals have used it to harass Christians with ever since. It is also used by evolutionists to try to keep a theistic explanation of origins out of the public schools.  Many young people today are not aware of the fact that this concept is an ACLU invention, and that it is the extreme opposite of what our founding fathers actually intended.  In other words, there is virtually no constitutional support whatsoever for it.  Let's examine two of the most common myths about the founding fathers that most public school students are being taught today because of the history revisionists.</I>

One final note:

<I>27 of our nation's 56 founding fathers had Christian seminary degrees.  They certainly would have been aware of these directives spelled out in the Bible verses below about how to select leaders at all levels of government.  Unfortunately the history revisionists that write our public school text books have left this important information out of what students are learning today. If you look at most web sites about the founding fathers, you'll also see that it's almost always omitted there as well.  There is a deliberate effort on the part of secularists to keep this information from public school students.</I>

You take one thing from a letter, and now it becomes fact because of a court ruleing. To me that's stupid. NO WHERE DOES IT SAY SEPARATION FROM CHURCH AND STATE. I don't believe the founding fathers wanted it. But even if they had the idea of that. It was never expressed in a LEGAL document. So how does one letter, change the nation???

[Pyru]

Pyru

Re: Serparation from Church and State

But it's not a bad thing. Whether or not the evidence you've given is correct (couldn't care less- it's USA stuff and I don't live there), it's not a good thing to make laws based purely on religious views.

Because other people can have perfectly justifiable, reasonable religious/non-religious views that may conflict with this, and to discriminate against them, even if they are a minority, is unfair.

[YoVoBaller]

YoVoBaller

Re: Serparation from Church and State

The problem is... that we came here to found a nation with religious freedom. Mainly the people who came here, were christians who were persecuted by England. ALOT of our nation's founding fathers were christians, and they founded this nation on biblical principals. Now they are taking down the 10 commandments, and the stopped prayer in schoo. I hear the want to take One Nation under GOD, from our money. So what if it offends people? Gay marriage offends me, are they going to stop trying to make it legal? No. One Nation under God, offends you, are you going to stop trying to take it away? Probably not. If to me, unmoral ideas offend me, you tell me to get over it, and stop being so, Holyer-than-thou, But if my so called "morality" offends you, it must be taken away. So it doesn't offend you anymore. I wish alot of the apathetic christians would get off their butts, and fight Abortion, and Gay Marriage, like the way you fight for it, It was estimated by the CIA Factbook that 52% of people are Protestant. Then there are Catholics at 24%. That should mean that at least 75% should believe in biblical principles. Although I don't fully agree with the percentages. There are plenty of people who say they're christians but aren't. Also catholics... catholics are strange to me 75%-25% in a fight? the 75% should win, but the 75% aren't fighting, and are letting the 25% win alot. But  I don't give a crap in this matter, whether your a christian or not. One Nation under GOD is our heritage. If it offends you, GET OVER IT.

[Cuddle♥Bunny]

Cuddle♥Bunny

Re: Serparation from Church and State

Somewhere it was stated that on this forum, there's supposed to be seperation from church and state... In NO LEGAL DOCUMENT was that ever stated.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Constitution, First Amendment. This is what people used to say that spearation of Church and state is in the US.

<I>27 of our nation's 56 founding fathers had Christian seminary degrees.  They certainly would have been aware of these directives spelled out in the Bible verses below about how to select leaders at all levels of government.  Unfortunately the history revisionists that write our public school text books have left this important information out of what students are learning today. If you look at most web sites about the founding fathers, you'll also see that it's almost always omitted there as well.  There is a deliberate effort on the part of secularists to keep this information from public school students.</I>

Proof please. Don't go stating that the liberal terrorists are out to get the history books without any sources.

I hear the want to take One Nation under GOD, from our money.

One Nation under GOD is our heritage.

Added in the 50's to say we're not filthy godless commies. Nothing to do with the founding principals of the nation. Not to mention you started said post with:

that we came here to found a nation with religious freedom.

God on money seems a little intimidating to this religious freedom, no?

the 75% should win, but the 75% aren't fighting, and are letting the 25% win alot.

Take your own advice:

If it offends you, GET OVER IT.

And for good measure:

• 

[Pyru]

Pyru

Re: Serparation from Church and State

The thing is, no-one's forcing anyone to have abortions or get married to people of the same gender.

But forcing kids to pray in school, and forcing all legal tender to have the word "God" on them? That seems unfair.

Christians, as a whole, were never persecuted in England. There was just the big Church of England vs. Catholics thing for a while.

Okay, lemme put it like this... say you lived in a Muslim country, ruled by Muslim holy law and you were a woman and Islamic. What if you decided one day to be a christian? You'd get stoned to death for it. What if you wanted to do the same things as men do? You'd get stoned to death for it. See where I'm going with this?

I know Christianity based laws may seem fair to YOU, but think about it from someone else's perspective.

[Ben]

Ben

Re: Serparation from Church and State

Christians, as a whole, were never persecuted in England. There was just the big Church of England vs. Catholics thing for a while.

Christians as a whole persecuted themselves in england.... :-p
Besides the entirety of england is christians/was christians so it's a little harder to engage in persecution.

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[Infinitus]

Infinitus

Re: Serparation from Church and State

Okay, lemme put it like this... say you lived in a Muslim country, ruled by Muslim holy law and you were a woman and Islamic. What if you decided one day to be a christian? You'd get stoned to death for it. What if you wanted to do the same things as men do? You'd get stoned to death for it. See where I'm going with this?

Quite ironic you mentioned that, a situation similar to this was in the newspaper the other day, a few muslims were trying to get someone extridited because he had decided to convert from shia law christianity. Ill see if i can find the newspaper page online.

Anyway im kepping out of this.

[Pyru]

Pyru

Re: Serparation from Church and State

Christians, as a whole, were never persecuted in England. There was just the big Church of England vs. Catholics thing for a while.

Christians as a whole persecuted themselves in england.... :-p
Besides the entirety of england is christians/was christians so it's a little harder to engage in persecution.

But christians were never persecuted as a single group. At least not any time in the past 1000 years at least.

[Limey]

Limey

Re: Serparation from Church and State

Somewhere it was stated that on this forum, there's supposed to be seperation from church and state... In NO LEGAL DOCUMENT was that ever stated.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Constitution, First Amendment. This is what people used to say that spearation of Church and state is in the US.

<I>27 of our nation's 56 founding fathers had Christian seminary degrees.  They certainly would have been aware of these directives spelled out in the Bible verses below about how to select leaders at all levels of government.  Unfortunately the history revisionists that write our public school text books have left this important information out of what students are learning today. If you look at most web sites about the founding fathers, you'll also see that it's almost always omitted there as well.  There is a deliberate effort on the part of secularists to keep this information from public school students.</I>

Proof please. Don't go stating that the liberal terrorists are out to get the history books without any sources.

I hear the want to take One Nation under GOD, from our money.

One Nation under GOD is our heritage.

Added in the 50's to say we're not filthy godless commies. Nothing to do with the founding principals of the nation. Not to mention you started said post with:

that we came here to found a nation with religious freedom.

God on money seems a little intimidating to this religious freedom, no?

the 75% should win, but the 75% aren't fighting, and are letting the 25% win alot.

Take your own advice:

If it offends you, GET OVER IT.

And for good measure:

Excelent post.

In no legal documents does it have the phrase "Seperation of church and state", but the idea is definately there.

Also, if our country is about religious freedom, shouldn't people have the freedom to NOT say "Under God" in schools?  That phrase was added in the 1950's during the cold war anyway >_>

[YoVoBaller]

YoVoBaller

Re: Serparation from Church and State

The thing is, no-one's forcing anyone to have abortions or get married to people of the same gender.

But forcing kids to pray in school, and forcing all legal tender to have the word "God" on them? That seems unfair.

Problem is! Kids I know who go through public school try to pray, but get in trouble. Kid got in trouble just praying over his food. Now doesn't that seem unfair?

The thing is, no-one's forcing anyone to have abortions or get married to people of the same gender.

True, but by the priniciples that this nation was founded on it should be illegal. Any other nations other than USA are excluded from this. Sorry for not stating that earlier

Christians, as a whole, were never persecuted in England. There was just the big Church of England vs. Catholics thing for a while.

I haven't read my history book in awhile so, sorry about that. BUT there wasn't really any freedom, since I think the Catholics were the majority at that time.

Okay, lemme put it like this... say you lived in a Muslim country, ruled by Muslim holy law and you were a woman and Islamic. What if you decided one day to be a christian? You'd get stoned to death for it. What if you wanted to do the same things as men do? You'd get stoned to death for it. See where I'm going with this?

I know Christianity based laws may seem fair to YOU, but think about it from someone else's perspective.

Here's the thing. Our debates will not end. Simple. I believe that I worship the one true God, and all others all false. So I would think that the laws mentioned created by that Muslim country, would be wrong. Simple. I believe Abortion is wrong, because it goes against my beliefs. Simple. You believe abortion is up to the person( or up to a certain term). Simple. I believe gay marriage is wrong, because it goes against my beliefs. Simple. You believe it's up to that person(if I'm not mistaken, feel free to correct on that). Simple.

That muslim country. Are the citizens going to uprise and change the law? Nope. Why? Because it goes against the beliefs the country was founded on, and they would most likely be killed. But here in America, we have the right to protest. So protest the people do. Yet, the things the people support, are violating the beliefs THIS country was founded on. Only difference. We're not going to kill anyone about it, and all it takes is one court, and some judges to change stuff. Which is wrong. Let the majority decide.

the 75% should win, but the 75% aren't fighting, and are letting the 25% win alot.

Take your own advice:

lol, I know and I agree. Yet some people are just too dang lazy >_<

And for good measure:

Umm considering the minority, is winning over the majority, and shouldn't the Majority of the nation's people decide what should, and should not be allowed? Since it ain't happening, then yes the Majority is being oppressed.

[Pyru]

Pyru

Re: Serparation from Church and State

The majority are deciding, however.

America is one of the most right-wing, over conservative countries in the world. You have hardly any history at all, yet you're recklessly attached to it.

Does it really matter what the country was founded for? England's been around as a country, in some form or other, for.... I really don't know how long. Well over 1000 years. No-one really cares why the country was started.

Just move on. Being so attached to the past is holding you back, rather than letting you progress.

[Cuddle♥Bunny]

Cuddle♥Bunny

Re: Serparation from Church and State

The thing is, no-one's forcing anyone to have abortions or get married to people of the same gender.

But forcing kids to pray in school, and forcing all legal tender to have the word "God" on them? That seems unfair.

Problem is! Kids I know who go through public school try to pray, but get in trouble. Kid got in trouble just praying over his food. Now doesn't that seem unfair?

They should be able to pray. Anyone preventing them from that is the same as making Jewish kids take off their yamakas, or muslim girls off their what-ever-you-call-its.

The thing is, no-one's forcing anyone to have abortions or get married to people of the same gender.

True, but by the priniciples that this nation was founded on it should be illegal. Any other nations other than USA are excluded from this. Sorry for not stating that earlier

that we came here to found a nation with religious freedom.

???

Okay, lemme put it like this... say you lived in a Muslim country, ruled by Muslim holy law and you were a woman and Islamic. What if you decided one day to be a christian? You'd get stoned to death for it. What if you wanted to do the same things as men do? You'd get stoned to death for it. See where I'm going with this?

I know Christianity based laws may seem fair to YOU, but think about it from someone else's perspective.

Here's the thing. Our debates will not end. Simple. I believe that I worship the one true God, and all others all false. So I would think that the laws mentioned created by that Muslim country, would be wrong. Simple. I believe Abortion is wrong, because it goes against my beliefs. Simple. You believe abortion is up to the person( or up to a certain term). Simple. I believe gay marriage is wrong, because it goes against my beliefs. Simple. You believe it's up to that person(if I'm not mistaken, feel free to correct on that). Simple.

That muslim country. Are the citizens going to uprise and change the law? Nope. Why? Because it goes against the beliefs the country was founded on, and they would most likely be killed. But here in America, we have the right to protest. So protest the people do. Yet, the things the people support, are violating the beliefs THIS country was founded on. Only difference. We're not going to kill anyone about it, and all it takes is one court, and some judges to change stuff. Which is wrong. Let the majority decide.

Let the majority decide then. Just because you have read that 75% are christians DOESN'T MEAN that 75% are voting for pro-christian laws.

And for good measure:

Umm considering the minority, is winning over the majority, and shouldn't the Majority of the nation's people decide what should, and should not be allowed? Since it ain't happening, then yes the Majority is being oppressed.

Where is the minority winning over the majority? Where is christianity being oppressed? Elaborate.

• 

[Pyru]

Pyru

Re: Serparation from Church and State

Let the majority decide then. Just because you have read that 75% are christians DOESN'T MEAN that 75% are voting for pro-christian laws.

That's a fair point. I'm a buddhist, and therefore believe that no-one should eat meat. But I would never vote "yes" on a law that banned eating meat, simply because I believe it's the sort of thing that people should have freedom on. It won't cause that much harm if they do, and if they did stop eating meat, I believe it should be for the right reasons, not because they were forced to adhere to my religion.

I would feel endless guilt if I ever opressed anyone into following my religion. I wonder why a lot of other people don't, though...

[YoVoBaller]

YoVoBaller

Re: Serparation from Church and State

After reading my posts y'all can probably tell I suck at debates >.>

But instead of replying to all those replies ALL THOSE REPLIES!

Ok, Abortion, gay marriage those topics. Christians(real ones, not posers) Believe that abortion, is murder. Gay marriage, is wrong. Based on what we believe. Why don't we let people have their own choice to do so? Because the majority says no, and the majority, believes it's wrong. When the majority stands on something, the majority should be favored, in the eyes of government. "Opressing" my beliefs. IT's not just my beliefs, it's what the country was founded on. Allowing gay marriage, would be destroying the foundation we are founded on. Also. You think everyone has the choice to have an abortion or not. Free will. OK dude, I come into your home with a gun. I believe it's ok to kill people. Or I want to because it's my free will. Do you want murderers going loose? No. We have laws against murder. So if he does kill you, then he goes to jail, or receives captial punishment. Your being just as discriminitory against  other people, as we are you. You want abortion, but not murder. You want gay marriage, but not rape, or stealing. Well the majority doesn't want abortion, or gay marriage. They want freedom to pray in a public school, or to start a Bible club. But we're not getting that. Why? Because the minority, read one letter, used it the wrong way, and now the majority is hindered by the minority. You want abortion, but we can't start a bible club. You want gay marriage, but you don't allow the teaching of science, under the ideas of creationists. You teach evolution, which is just a theory as pure fact. The Majority thinks evolution is false, yet it's still being taught because the minority believes it. Thing is, I know no matter how long we do this. Nothing good is coming out of this. I just wanted to state, that Separation from Church and State is pure bull. It was on letter, saying that Government should stay out of religion, and not control it. Not that Religion can't influence Government in any way.

[MG-Zero]

MG-Zero

Re: Serparation from Church and State

You can't use freedom of religion to back this up.  Let's take the supreme court case, New York board of education vs. i forgot who...The schools were forcing students to pray to God before school started.  What if you don't believe in God?  No freedom there...

i love big weenies and i cannot lie

[Ben]

Ben

Re: Serparation from Church and State

Ok, Abortion, gay marriage those topics. Christians(real ones, not posers) Believe that abortion, is murder

You just denounced every christian denomination apart from the Roman Catholic church (roughly).

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[YoVoBaller]

YoVoBaller

Re: Serparation from Church and State

You can't use freedom of religion to back this up.  Let's take the supreme court case, New York board of education vs. i forgot who...The schools were forcing students to pray to God before school started.  What if you don't believe in God?  No freedom there...

I perfectly agree, you cannot FORCE them to do anything... but there are so many things where christians are being forced not to pray(not like the can stop them though), where they can't have there own meeting. I heard something the ACLU prohibited some christmas card, because it violated "separation from church and state" Don't you think that's a little ridiculous?

Ok, Abortion, gay marriage those topics. Christians(real ones, not posers) Believe that abortion, is murder

You just denounced every christian denomination apart from the Roman Catholic church (roughly).

umm excuse my, lack of understanding of that, but what does that mean?

[Ben]

Ben

Re: Serparation from Church and State

As far as I've been taught Roman Catholics are the only christian section that believe life begins at conception and therefore abortion is murder.
You said that only real christians believe that abortion is murder and therefore that means that only roman catholics are real christians by your logic.

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[Cuddle♥Bunny]

Cuddle♥Bunny

Re: Serparation from Church and State

After reading my posts y'all can probably tell I suck at debates >.>

But instead of replying to all those replies ALL THOSE REPLIES!

Ok, Abortion, gay marriage those topics. Christians(real ones, not posers) Believe that abortion, is murder. Gay marriage, is wrong. Based on what we believe. Why don't we let people have their own choice to do so? Because the majority says no, and the majority, believes it's wrong. When the majority stands on something, the majority should be favored, in the eyes of government. "Opressing" my beliefs. IT's not just my beliefs, it's what the country was founded on. Allowing gay marriage, would be destroying the foundation we are founded on. Also. You think everyone has the choice to have an abortion or not. Free will. OK dude, I come into your home with a gun. I believe it's ok to kill people. Or I want to because it's my free will. Do you want murderers going loose? No. We have laws against murder. So if he does kill you, then he goes to jail, or receives captial punishment. Your being just as discriminitory against  other people, as we are you. You want abortion, but not murder. You want gay marriage, but not rape, or stealing. Well the majority doesn't want abortion, or gay marriage. They want freedom to pray in a public school, or to start a Bible club. But we're not getting that. Why? Because the minority, read one letter, used it the wrong way, and now the majority is hindered by the minority. You want abortion, but we can't start a bible club. You want gay marriage, but you don't allow the teaching of science, under the ideas of creationists. You teach evolution, which is just a theory as pure fact. The Majority thinks evolution is false, yet it's still being taught because the minority believes it. Thing is, I know no matter how long we do this. Nothing good is coming out of this. I just wanted to state, that Separation from Church and State is pure bull. It was on letter, saying that Government should stay out of religion, and not control it. Not that Religion can't influence Government in any way.

According to the constitution, you can have your bible club.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And it would help if you read the replies,

Where is the minority winning over the majority? Where is christianity being oppressed? Elaborate.

• 

[Alex2539]

Alex2539

Re: Serparation from Church and State

Ok, Abortion, gay marriage those topics. Christians(real ones, not posers) Believe that abortion, is murder

Who are you to decide who is or is not a real christian? "Christian" only means that according to their religion, Christ is the messiah and son of God. Christianity has divided so many times, that saying and a real christian is anything but someone who believes that can be contested. If you bring up practically any issue, then you will probably find two different christian sects who have opposing opinions. As long as they believe in Christ, they are real christians. That is the definition.

"Opressing" my beliefs.

With things like gay marriage or abortion, allowing it doesn't opress your beliefs at all. Are you being forced to say that they're okay? Are you being made to kill unborn children and marry men? No, not at all. You can go on and believe whatever you want is evil, but by disallowing them, you are saying that others who believe otherwise cannot follow their beliefs with the freedom that they deserve as much as you.

You teach evolution, which is just a theory as pure fact. The Majority thinks evolution is false, yet it's still being taught because the minority believes it.

Oh really? What majority? Do you mean that every christian believe it all started with Adam and Eve? Evolution may be theoretical, but so is most science. Practically every scientific aspect is nearly impossible to prove. It is rather much easier to disprove others and stick with the most plausible. That computer you're using is made possible purely by the fact that so far, our theories about data and electricity aren't wrong. Evolution may not be proven, but it's more plausible than Adam and Eve, which does in fact have disproving scientific evidence, such as early man.

"They say 'Don't sweat the little things!', but in the end, the little things are all that matter..."
--Alex2539