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Author Topic: Resource storage suggestions  (Read 6690 times)

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Resource storage suggestions
« on: November 21, 2010, 12:24:42 pm »
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Following up on the discussion in the feedback section.
I'd like to propose two things to hopefully improve the appeal of the site:

1. A change in the set-up of how graphics (and other resources) are displayed on the mainsite.
This is initially a question wether or not this is even debatable and to what length.

2. In case of a negative anwser to question nr. 1 then I have an alternative proposal.

I'd like to get a child forum in the Graphics forumsection, named something along the lines of: Graphics database. I create several locked topics, which serve as categories. Think along the lines of MC/Atlltp/LA/Mock-ups/Other Zelda/Other. There will also be a rules topic. People may create topics in the child section where they present sprites to add to the database. If found acceptable then I add them to the locked topics accordingly.

Graphics must be accompanied by information like:
-Description
-Name creator -> in case of custom work, or specificly mentioned
-Location found -> in case of custom work with unknown creator
-Permission asked -> in case of custom work with a known creator
-Credits needed -> yes by default (=when unknown) in case of custom work and no by default in case of rips
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2010, 01:56:52 pm »
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I like the idea, although I suggest you make the categories as followed:

Root
|
|--> Ripped Graphics
|       |
|       |-> NES (LoZ and AoL)
|       |-> ALttP (+GBA)
|       |-> GB (LA,OOS,OOA)
|       |-> MC/FS
|       |-> FSA
|       |-> OOT/MM
|       |-> TWW/PH/ST
|       |-> TP(/SS?)
|
|--> Custom made Graphics
        |
        |-> NES (LoZ and AoL) style
        |-> ALttP (+GBA) style
        |-> GB (LA,OOS,OOA) style
        |-> MC/FS style
        |-> FSA style
        |-> OOT/MM style
        |-> TWW/PH/ST style
        |-> TP(/SS?) style
        |-> Other style

The reason why I separated FSA from MC and ALttP, because it is a mix between them. I do think that you need guideline rules when it comes to custom made enemies, npc's and Link though. Also the resources should be stored on ZFGC and not on some remote place.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2010, 02:37:36 pm »
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I like the idea.  I would like to see it implemented in the actual Resources tab of the site.  It kinda is a pain to look through 15+ pages of sprites only to find no one ever made them on ZFGC, which ends up having me always go to tSR for my sprites.
I think someone should look into redoing the layout of the actual Resources tab so that we can have something somewhat similar to tSR in that you could click on Resources>Graphics and see this:

     LoZ      AoL     ALttP     LA     OoT     MM


..and so on.  Basically maybe a thumb image or an image submitted by a user.  Of course, the way the buttons are laid out could be different.  If you have custom graphics, it could be laid out similar to something like this:

Custom Graphics

LoZ
<graphics here>

AoL
<graphics here>

LttP
<graphics here>


etc etc
I like the idea of using the forum for an approval process.  User submits sprite sheet, moderation approves of it.  Custom graphics should be community approved in that a sheet should get so many +1 or something before the sheet gets approved and placed on the site.

Just some stuff to think about.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2010, 07:49:31 pm »
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I also agree with this idea, especially pertaining to how it is displayed on the mainsite. Nothing against windy or anything, but the graphics and such section on the main site could definitely be handled better, Split into different groups, like graphics styles, or by graphics for the different zelda games. Right now it seems more of a mess the way it seems to be all jumbled into one. It's kind of daunting to click on graphics and see 16 pages of everything really mixed together. No real way to separate them. I'm not expecting Windy or anyone else to just jump up and fix everything within a second, nor am i trying to criticize the work that he's already done on it.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2010, 06:04:16 pm »
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Waiting on the response from 4Sword
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2010, 06:59:10 pm »
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The best way to get a reaction is to just PM him.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2010, 07:24:10 pm »
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I am currently supposed to be studying for a test I have to leave for in about and hour and a half; I also have to shower still and haven't eaten anything (I probably won't get to do that until after the test). The ability to implement such changes is something I am not able to do at my skill level. Otherwise because most fan games are two-dimensional having additional separate categories for the three-dimensional - they wouldn't be used as much. Additionally custom graphics tend to a set style; I am not thinking about this with the number of resources there might be for the ripped and custom sections in my head though, but if the number of custom graphics is low it might be easier to put it with rips.

Also while this is a Zelda place, non-Zelda stuff should be accommodated. The Graphics options at the end of Martijn dh's post were alright, as long as the "where did you get it one" doesn't turn into people getting stuff off TSR and just reposting it to the site. About having several locked topics in a subsection, I don't know. It could probably be handled with one locked topic, or one topic where users could post to a list that is updated by someone. There isn't going to be a rush of people posting stuff by any stretch of the imagination, so having a sub-board for it likely wouldn't get much activity or it would be slow activity. Also about posting to the topic if you want it added to the database, that might not be necessary if the one updating the list is watching topics that get posted and there is something worth adding - then again it might be rude to add without asking.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2010, 09:20:44 pm »
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Okay, I wasn't trying to rush you 4Sword. Just interested to hear what your first reaction would be.
Judging by what you're saying it seems you're leaning towards the forum approach. It would als work as a crossingbridge to change the main site at a later date, so I wouldn't mind setting it up. Given I have some freedom in how I orden it obviously. I could start by creating a topic for it and then that can be moved over to it's own child section? Just opting a workable approach to keep the ball rolling.

The grouping I mentioned for ordening the sprites was just a quick rundown on how I pictured it might end up. Starting with just one topic to collect everything will do quite nicely as a start. When someone has to turn to the next page or scroll too far, then it becomes time to maybe split things up.

I fully agree that non-zelda work should also be featured in the database! All graphical work is welcome (if good enough - as Theforeshadower hinted at).

I would have to insist there be a seperate submit topic for people to present graphics.
I will not be actively looking for content (doing that for the PotM is taking plenty of time as it is). People will need to present it (directly or by linking the topic) to keep things manageable. I forsee no problems with this once a little collection has been gathered and people realise I'm for keeps. Using a (tiny) "form" and submission topics (next from the database topic) also help keep things clear and getting resources ultimately userfriendly.

To also repond to Niek's idea. We could make the request that people presenting resources also upload them to the site, but I do not wish to make it mandetory. Asking to present and describe graphics on the forum already takes some effort. Let's not push our luck on that one. It would hurt to request on the side though.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2010, 06:09:45 am »
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Martijn, I know and I agree. The only problem with off-site storage, thus not in the resources section or in the attachment in a topic, is that it can be taken down. Thus it would be necessary to prune the list for dead resources regularly.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2010, 04:38:27 pm »
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Just to add something to #1. It is up for discussion, to a limited extent as it's almost complete and I'm not going to start making radical changes to it. Keep in mind what you're seeing is a part of the old site, the newer system is quite different.

The new system works quite similar to the project system I already have up, except for a few differences.  I haven't changed it over yet due to still fixing existing issues with the project system, which can then be integrated back into the system as a whole.

Most of the fixes are internal, so it doesn't look like much is going on.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2010, 08:48:32 am »
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If it's going to change to something like the new WIP layout then that already is a nice improvement.

I still wish to suggest the following:
- A grouping aspect to distinguish between styles/games/etc. Preferably something that can be changed by the moderators so it can be managed as the database grows. Seems a waste to have it clutter.
- Currently when you want to see a sheet fully you have to click the icon, then make it to the download and actually download to be able to view it fully. Is it a possibility to fully display the image directly after the first click. On his screen I mean: http://www.zfgc.com/index.php#?action=resources&sa=view&id=214
- Can it be possible to link images from the database to the forum? Like when we upload to imageshack a deticated link is created to be used on forums. If the first suggestions is not possible then we could still use the forum idea to present it alternatively.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2010, 05:10:30 pm »
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The whole grouping aspect is sort of supposed to be the job of tags, for example if they had ripped a resource from the minish cap, then they would tag it as "ripped, minish cap" and it would only show up in searches featuring those tags. I've pretty much left it up to the user to decide on what tags to use, as I don't believe that it would be possible to keep track of all the tags that may be required. If something has been tagged incorrectly or inappropriately then it's up to moderator or the creator to handle it.

Viewing a sheet works similar to how I've set up the screenshot preview feature for projects, like the projects that have screenshots, graphical resources have the little preview icon in the top left of their box that you can click on, naturally instead of showing screenshots, it shows the actual image instead.

It should be alright to use the direct url to the resource, I can't see any particular reason as to why it shouldn't work.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2010, 06:20:35 pm »
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Sorry for the late reply. Sound like little will have to be changed. The only thing I still find could work better is the grouping. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but if a visitor is looking through the graphics section and the first screen does not contain (the option for) grouped results then it is not user friendly. I would suggest showing the available resources grouped at all times. Or adding in something like a dropbox on the mainscreen (in the graphics section) listing all available tags which you use to go straight to the group of your choice.

Tags will need to ordened by the moderators in all three scenarios since one might label alttp and another lttp. That would really clutter up the place. Maybe it's an idea to present several pre-made options at the inputscreen to cover some of the most common sections. If the visitor has something else he wants to share (like a yoshi sprite or whatever) then he can create a custom group/tag.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2010, 12:12:58 pm »
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Perhaps I don't think I quite understand what you mean by grouping.

I had designed it with it's intended purpose being a place where members can, assuming said resource exists, be able to find it and import it into what software they're using. Say for example they're searching for a sprite of gohma, you would go to the search page and start typing gohma, if the tag exists then it'll pop up on the auto-complete while they're typing and they can select it, after they hit search, the results will pop up, assuming they weren't able to find or there were too many results it suggests tags to help narrow down the result, hopefully until you get to the point where you are able to find what you're after.

It might be similar to another part of the system which I refer to as "collections", where users can create they're own collection of resources of different types and show them off publicly for others to find.  So for example if I were to do the same search, I might a find a collection that contains the sprites, as well as sounds to go along with it, possibly an AI engine of sorts and possibly even a tutorial on how to put it all together. It's more catered to those who aren't looking for anything in specific.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2010, 03:53:25 pm »
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First up. It's a suggestion for improvement. Those things you mention are already great to look forward to. The thing I mentioned, and I still miss in your post, is this: http://www.spriters-resource.com/snes/zeldalinkpast/index.html (example).

Just a clear and simple grouping that every retard from every age group would understand. The example shows groups like Friendly Characters and Enemies, but that's beside the point (as grouping towards game would be more effective for zfgc). I'm talking about the way the viewer sees the resources in a grouped fashion.

Let's say I want to look through the zfgc database to see if there are lttp sprites. Just a common example. I don't know what I'm looking for so I can look through all the resources or use your search functionality and look up "alttp". I scroll through the results, check out the results linked to those and so on. Doing this I probably will not find all the lttp resources available, simple because not everybody has the same ideas about what labels are appropriate for there individual sprites. The kid adding Gohma might just have labeled it "Gohma" and "boss" and not "OoT".

The situation above is a usefull way to check out specific resources. The point I'm trying to make is there are cases where "I" (the lazy pimpled 16 year old viewer) would be better helped if I would be able to scroll the results when grouped like the example link above. I also believe things will become less clutered. Your solution is elegant but requires more effort from the user. In short, it would complement what you are already planning.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2010, 05:13:17 pm »
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I think, that the display could be like the link Martijn provided. But what I think about when adding the sprite is having a check option or a drop down box where the sumbitter can check "The Minish Cap" or "A Link to the Past" or something else. This results in having automatically added tags relevant to the game and its style like for example: "The Minish Cap, TMC, MC, Minish Cap, Zelda MC, LoZTMC, LoZMC, 2D". You can even show a list of the automatic tags that will be added with that choice and then have the submitter the possibility to add other tags like "Chu-Chu, boss."

Then the viewer of the resources can show them per game, per member who submitted it or in a list per date added. In addition it automatically adds relevant tags for the search function (when the resource is submitted). 
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2011, 06:06:30 am »
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Have to agree with Martijn. While the tag idea is definitely something that should be done, a grouping interface is also useful. It's pretty much expected and familiar to users. Also not every user comes into a spriting database for a specific thing to search. Like for instance, sometimes I just browse to browse. While I like the idea you have Niek, it might prove an exhausting list when you consider games outside the realm of Zelda. I would suggest a general type though, Tileset, Background, NPC, Player, Boss, Enemy, Custom, Edit, Misc. etc.. etc.. and force a resource into that general category.

On the other hand. The submission system is designed to be automated. Leaving most, if not all the information about the resource on the side of the submitter. Where as on TSR it seems they have the staff to handle things like custom buttons, validation, and proper organization of a submitted resource. So we have to consider these facts, and how far we can take the grouping aspect of resources.

While TSR is great, a lot of sprites aren't really fan game ready as they are. (As in non-consistent frame sizes, item sprites separated from main sprites, and point of origin) I think that can really be something we could handle differently here. Since we are a fan game community, we are in a better position to make quality sprite sheets that are also usable right out of the box. Maybe zfgc approved sprites that follow a specific format?

Also for giggles:
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2011, 07:41:53 am »
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While I like the idea you have Niek, it might prove an exhausting list when you consider games outside the realm of Zelda.
Yes, but other games then Zelda you can still group under "Other". As is done right now on the boards also. And the game indication can be used for rips, but also to indicate the style of the graphics. Thus you would have a selection like the games and then two other options like Other and Custom. Custom is self explanatory. And Other means based on the style of another game, such as Super Mario World. If one game proves to become popular then you could still separate it from Other. It is just that a lot of people also search graphics by style like MC sprites or LttP tiles.

But your division also has its merits. I do like the idea that someone actually quality checks the submitted resources, because a lot of custom projects only contain statues. 
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2011, 08:01:39 am »
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All I can say is YES. The cluttered mess known as the graphics resources has bugged me ever since I joined. I'm all for it being fixed up.

I remember testing the format out on Windy's beta and I absolutely loved the idea of tags. The grouping seems to be a pretty great idea as well.

It really would be a good idea to have some submission guidelines that would include how resources are expected to be formatted. But, at the same time, too many rules could turn people away from submitting if they feel it is too much work. But then again, maybe that's okay. I guess it just depends. It is nice to have a spritesheet all chopped up nice instead of all sloppy and random, but just having the graphics is half the battle. So maybe we could simply urge people to submit in a certain way, but not require it. Either way, the changes Windy has been working on are a huge step in the right direction, and I'd be happy with a simple search! XD


Quality checks might be asking too much though? It is a nice thought I have to admit, but it means more work for somebody.
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Re: Resource storage suggestions
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2011, 08:10:43 am »
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I definitely agree, I don't think a mandatory set of rules is a good idea either. However, I do feel that a game ready resource group should exist. And if people want to contribute in this way, it should go through a conditional process. Then maybe have zfgc notify the quality of use of that resource to developers.
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