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Author Topic: Evolution: Fact or Theory?  (Read 24467 times)

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2awesome4apossum

Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2006, 12:43:54 am »
Of course it's just a theory.  You can't really define much as fact... A lot of things we teach in schools are theories.

Personally, I think that schools should teach multiple theories, really.  Like intelligent design AND evolution.
I was taught evolution in school, and I have absolutely no problem with it.  Intelligent design apparently can't be because "seperation of church and state" <_<

But oh well, we have church for religion, no? :)
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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2006, 12:53:28 am »
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@2awesome4apossum: I was not talking about Intelligent Design was I.  I know about religion too, since most athiests are not raised athiest, they often have to find their own path.  So, I do know a lot about Christianity.

@Comrade Kesha: Sciences can be proven.  Why would schools teach all theory?  That is stupid and misunderstood.  While no one can visibly see a stationary atom due to the energy of the photon hitting the atom and thus having it move, it is still predicted to have shape that fits a mathmatical model.  Science does not necessarily be seen, but it can be reasonably inferred.  It is not like someone is just saying that something is a certain way without backing it up.     

@ Limey: A lot of schools do not teach evolution on the curriculum because it offends deeply religious people.  It is something that can be reasonably inferred and even though most schools do not teach ape to man, it is still rejected.  Funny how humanity fears change of something it once hold true and funny how humanity fears what it was!  Humanity now is becoming even more anti-religious (people are not devout) and humanity is becoming worse than it was or thinks it was eons ago (If you tell an obese person that they are derived from a lesser form they fail to see themselves as decrepid and will view the lesser form as more of a disgusting figure; not all obese people, but one obviously would think that, I am pretty sure that everyone can think of at least one person who is like that)

...I have fake Internet money on the fact that a few people thought of me by that last comment even though they do not know me.
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2awesome4apossum

Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2006, 12:57:43 am »
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@2awesome4apossum: I was not talking about Intelligent Design was I.
I get a very different idea judging by your first post, and the post I quoted from (about why evolution is a theory that Christians dispute... you got your reasoning for that wrong ;)).
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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2006, 01:03:49 am »
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@Comrade Kesha: Sciences can be proven.  Why would schools teach all theory?  That is stupid and misunderstood.  While no one can visibly see a stationary atom due to the energy of the photon hitting the atom and thus having it move, it is still predicted to have shape that fits a mathmatical model.  Science does not necessarily be seen, but it can be reasonably inferred.  It is not like someone is just saying that something is a certain way without backing it up.
Once again, do you know what a scientific theory is?
Look it up before respoding to me.
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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2006, 01:37:13 am »
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Most science is still theoretical. There is still a vast amount about even the atom we don't know for sure. We know what happens under certain conditions and, as you said, the model can reasonably infered based on these observations. However, that does not mean it has been proven. It is merely the most likely theory and is assumed to be true. Our model is fairly recent. For a long time people have been coming up with models of atoms, and  each time they were different and more advanced. I remember the "plum pudding" model had all of the sub-atomic particles held within an atom. Based on the information they had, that model worked perfectly. As far as they were concerned, it was the thruth about the atom. Then, as time went by and more experiments were performed, we gained new information and the model of the atom underwent different changes up until what we have today. With practically any scientific theory, even one that's taught in school, there could be a random breakthrough that changes what we know about the universe. Until then,the best theory is taught. Scientists know that very little is 100% certain, and that's actually why there are those who try and disprove theories. They do know that what we have currently works for our purposes though, so they state that as "fact".

A theory is not certain and is very hard to prove for sure. However, if another theory crops up it is much easier to disprove one than it is to prove the other. Almost infinitely easier since true proof is almost impossible in most cases.
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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2006, 01:41:39 am »
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@2awesome4apossum: I was not talking about Intelligent Design was I.
I get a very different idea judging by your first post, and the post I quoted from (about why evolution is a theory that Christians dispute... you got your reasoning for that wrong ;)).
@2awesome4apossum:
My first post is not about Intelligent Design.  It refutes Creationism because of how Creationism says that various organisms were created seperately.  Thus, the grizzly and polar bear, according to early Creationists, were not from the same ancestor, but were always grizzly and polar bears since the beginning of time when God created them.  Thus, a Creationist views man as an unchanged being.  However, back to the bears, since they are different, and yet they can reproduce offspring even though it is infertile, suggests that they are compatible.  Knowing the life cycles of orgamisms, it is improbable to believe that an organism would change itself in less than let us say twenty years to accomodate itself to reproduce with a different organism.  A Creationist would have to agree on some extent that the bears had to have descended from a lesser organism to be able to at least breed.
@Comrade Kesha:
While a scientific theory is not fully known to be true, humankind cannot be expected to fully know itself because it is still itself.  A scientific theory does have basis on reason and is often proven to an extent my experiments and observations. 

So, a scientific theory is an explanation for a result of an experiment or a conclusion based upon observation that has been proven to an extent, which is testing many times, and yet remains theory because humankind does not have omnipresent understanding.


@Alex2539:
Exactly what I am trying to say.  A theory today, mind you, is more accurate than the theories of old.  The technology now permits humanity to know more, so less has to be inferred.
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2awesome4apossum

Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2006, 02:36:55 am »
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Thus, the grizzly and polar bear, according to early Creationists, were not from the same ancestor, but were always grizzly and polar bears since the beginning of time when God created them.
According to whom?  Certainly not any creationist I know.
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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2006, 03:28:41 am »
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That is why I said early creationists.  I cannot find the source now, but in a text about Darwin, there was a passage about birds, I think finches.  People at his time believed that some African finch and some other finch were not related and that they existed in their forms since the beginning of time, set in stone for eternity until extinction.  Two of the finches he studied were similar in forms and diets, but I am not sure if he tried to breed them. 

I did say early Creationists, so I doubt you would know any unless you lived a long time ago.  Modern creationists now have some science elements in their beliefs because they are now viewing things from a logical angle. 

My main thing against Creationism is that how could humanity remain its form and likeness.  If we were like we are now, then why didn't we change?  Other organisms did and have?  Just look at some elephants.  Even on a macroscopic scale, some have undergone tuck loss in a short period of time observable by man.  I am really surprised the Creationists did not go the route of saying that apes and monkies were a form of sinning humans that devolved into lessr devil-like forms.  That would even more sense.  In other words, if humanity descended from apes, is not it also possible for apes to have come from humans?  I guess that nobody knows that either.
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Swoftu

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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2006, 09:24:20 pm »
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In other words, if humanity descended from apes, is not it also possible for apes to have come from humans?  I guess that nobody knows that either.

Simple explanation; apes and humans both had a common ancestor.

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Change in height is easily attributed to improvements in environmental factors - e.g. diet, healthcare, disease, etc. Not evolution, sorry.

No, height is hereditary.

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The human genome is so complicated that any minor mutations often results in death before birth, or shortly after, or significant problems in the person's lifespan.

Actually, most mutations are neutral.

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I find the topic title humor inducing, because Evolution by all means is called the Theory of Evolution. So, yes, it is a theory. And you really can't prove anything definately with science anyway, so it's not a fact.

It's a theory and a fact. Fact and theory have different connotations in science terms. Gravity is a theory, too; but I don't see you gluing your feet to the floor.


Intellegent design should NEVER be taught in a science class.

[MOD_EDIT]Try not to double post.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2006, 10:29:08 pm by 2awesome4apossum »
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Ben

Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2006, 09:47:45 pm »
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Change in height is easily attributed to improvements in environmental factors - e.g. diet, healthcare, disease, etc. Not evolution, sorry.

No, height is hereditary.

No maximum height is hereditary, but it is influenced by your diet and diseases etc.
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Swoftu

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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2006, 09:56:41 pm »
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Change in height is easily attributed to improvements in environmental factors - e.g. diet, healthcare, disease, etc. Not evolution, sorry.

No, height is hereditary.

No maximum height is hereditary, but it is influenced by your diet and diseases etc.

even so, the gene for height is still passed on regardless.
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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2006, 09:59:00 pm »
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In other words, if humanity descended from apes, is not it also possible for apes to have come from humans?  I guess that nobody knows that either.

Simple explanation; apes and humans both had a common ancestor.
I do believe that they have a common ancestor; I was trying to propose a point.  What my post was saying is that it would have been more thesible for mankind to to say that apes were degenerate man, there being racism and hatred in the world.  For a long time, Africans and Native Americans were viewed as subhuman because they did not fit the "white standard".  For Charles Darwin, a white man, to say that all of humanity, including whites, came from a lesser species not only is radical on a religious level, but on a social level as well.

My other posts and the one that precedes this one show that a common ancestor is not only thesible, but is the most probable. 


Yes, height like intelligence is merely hereditary potential.  The amount of that potential that is realized more often than not is less.
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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2006, 10:08:55 pm »
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Intellegent design should NEVER be taught in a science class.

Agreed.

I took a class on psychology this year in school, and theres a term for why religeous people came up with that theory and refuse to believe evolution even though theres as much evidence support it as there is to disprove intelligent design, and I have yet to see any true evidence to support Intelligent design.  I've searched for it, and just couldn't find it, it all seems to based on how unlikely it is that things would develop the way they have, or that we haven't found some of the fossils to perfectly link humans to their ancestors yet.


It is just a theory right now since there is really no way to design an experiment, and reproduce it, but I believe it is fact because there are too many different species out there that are very similar to each other.

Not to mention, where does a platypus fit into intelligent design?  Its furry, has a duck-like bill, and a beaver-like tail, lives in burrows that it digs, is one of only three species of mammals that lay eggs, and the males even have poisonous spurs on thier legs!   :D
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Pyru

Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2006, 10:10:39 pm »
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Change in height is easily attributed to improvements in environmental factors - e.g. diet, healthcare, disease, etc. Not evolution, sorry.

No, height is hereditary.

Nope, not exactly. Genetics are a factor in determining height, but environment is a much bigger factor.

Especially when you're referring to the apparent change in humans in the past hundred years; a few hundred years is not enough to explain significant change due to evolution; changes in environment is a much bigger factor then than genetics.

Besides. Height is sometimes more hormonal than genetical: There was a man who was a dwarf for most of his life; then, due to a sudden hormal change, he grew a lot in a very short space of time, to become a giant within a few years. This may have been genetical, but you could still, in theory, give a dwarf a massive amount of hormone injections to make them grow a lot.

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The human genome is so complicated that any minor mutations often results in death before birth, or shortly after, or significant problems in the person's lifespan.

Actually, most mutations are neutral.

Not in humans. Very, very minor ones may be, but most mutations present in sex cells (and, thenceforth, a foetus) cause significant problems; humans are very complex organisms, and most of the genetic structure is essential to survival. You'd be surprised how very minor mutations have massive ramifications.

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I find the topic title humor inducing, because Evolution by all means is called the Theory of Evolution. So, yes, it is a theory. And you really can't prove anything definately with science anyway, so it's not a fact.

It's a theory and a fact. Fact and theory have different connotations in science terms. Gravity is a theory, too; but I don't see you gluing your feet to the floor.

If science can never be called fact, then nothing can ever be called fact. We know gravity exists; if there is no such force, then there is no explaination for... almost everything that's ever happened, and continues to happen.

Intellegent design should NEVER be taught in a science class.

Not neccesarily. If there was significant evidence besides religious belief for it, then it should. However, at the present time, that evidence is severely lacking.

EDIT:

Not to mention, where does a platypus fit into intelligent design?  Its furry, has a duck-like bill, and a beaver-like tail, lives in burrows that it digs, is one of only three species of mammals that lay eggs, and the males even have poisonous spurs on thier legs!   :D

That actually makes more sense WITH intelligent design. :P

Simple: God was bored. =D
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Swoftu

Super Fighting Robot
Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2006, 10:26:14 pm »
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Not in humans. Very, very minor ones may be, but most mutations present in sex cells (and, thenceforth, a foetus) cause significant problems; humans are very complex organisms, and most of the genetic structure is essential to survival. You'd be surprised how very minor mutations have massive ramifications.

Thank you for specifying gametes. But not all mutations are negative; there are mutations that allow you to become resistant to certian diseases, etc.

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If science can never be called fact, then nothing can ever be called fact.

A scientific fact is an observation that has been confirmed repeatedly and is accepted as true (although its truth is never final, because another piece of evidence could come along and prove the fact wrong)

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We know gravity exists; if there is no such force, then there is no explaination for... almost everything that's ever happened, and continues to happen.

The same with evolution; if there is no such process, then there is no explaination for... almost everything that's ever happened, and continues to happen.

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Not to mention, where does a platypus fit into intelligent design?  Its furry, has a duck-like bill, and a beaver-like tail, lives in burrows that it digs, is one of only three species of mammals that lay eggs, and the males even have poisonous spurs on thier legs!

Whereas there's an easy explanation with evolution; the platypus still retained some of its reptile-like characteristics while it evolved with some mammalian characteristics.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2006, 10:31:31 pm by Swiftu »
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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2006, 09:06:14 pm »
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Evolution is a scientific theory that is supported by a large amount of scientific and archeological evidence. Darwin's finches are just one example. Even humans themselves are good examples. Just look at the difference in appearance (skin color, hair, etc.), which is often attributed to their environement. Simply put, the humans of that regions adapted to survive: such as Africans, whose dark skin tones provide protection from sun burns.

I think that anyone who rejects evolution is merely blinded by faith.
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"It is a terrible thing for a man to find out suddenly that all his life he has been speaking nothing but the truth" - Jack, The Importance of Being Ernest

Pyro

Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2006, 04:29:16 am »
Didnt read through all the pages...to long xD Only read like 2 first posts...

I dont know what to think, me and my friends were actually just talkin about this...like I mean....If man evolved from apes and so on...Why are there still apes and stuff? I dont get it, If we evolved from them, should they be men/women to? I really dont...just like the theroy that dolphins evolved from big wolf-like creatures...and somthin else in that strange range of things...
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Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2006, 04:58:20 am »
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Thought I'd just throw in another quick piece of evidence for evolution:

take a look at viruses and bacteria, especially the cold and the flu. It seems that every year (and sometimes a few times a year) a new form of the cold and the flu is out there. But why? Are there severaly forms just flying around the world? No. When our body is attacked by these common illnesses, it learns how to effectively fight it, making itself immune to it. So then how do we get the cold/flu again? Because the virus itself rapidly evolves in order to infect your system, because that is how it survives. All viruses that we are immune to die out, and eventually only those that can infect us still exist. This is natural selection, and it is nothing short of ignorance to overlook such an obvious and common example of evolution. This is also the reason why new vaccines are constantly created for the same diseases.
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"It is a terrible thing for a man to find out suddenly that all his life he has been speaking nothing but the truth" - Jack, The Importance of Being Ernest

Build a Bridge

Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2006, 04:19:35 am »
Didnt read through all the pages...to long xD Only read like 2 first posts...

If man evolved from apes and so on...Why are there still apes and stuff?

Humans and apes decended from a common ancestor; It's like asking, "If many Americans and Australians are descended from Europeans, why are there still Europeans around?"

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2awesome4apossum

Re: Evolution: Fact or Theory?
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2006, 07:32:04 pm »
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I think that anyone who rejects evolution is merely blinded by faith.
ROFL!

It'd be even funnier if I didn't think you were joking. ^_^

@ those who don't know what I'm talking about.  Let's take the most basic definition of faith "a belief in something that's true", and you'll see why that's such a funny oxymoron.

Even our beloved Dictionary.com has a similar definition (although I'd point out Webster to anyone who has a book at home):
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Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

Of course evolution's fact!  It's undisputed!  However, I'd like to point out that many non-Christians are also very skeptical about the monkey to human thing... <_<;;

It's quite a ridiculous theory, really... especially when we have an entirely different level of intellegent as to other animals.  All you science people should know what I'm talking about ;)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 07:34:01 pm by 2awesome4apossum »
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