ZFGC
ZFGC CP => World Design => King of Thieves => Dungeons => Topic started by: BlazeBigBang on June 04, 2012, 01:26:47 pm
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(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p528/BlazeBigBang/ForestTemple.png)
Well, as there was no layout for the forest temple, I thought why not to give it a try, and here it is.
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A few things:
1. Would it be possible to make the dungeon overall look more foresty and ancient? More outdoor areas would be awesome!
2. Where is the entrance, exactly? Is it that outdoor section?
3. Does the boss battle take place in the room with the heart container?
4. Would you be able to make this just a weee bit longer of a dungeon? I just feel like the player will blast through this in less than 5 minutes on their first run and won't have much sense of accomplishment. For example, the mini boss and hookshot are both right at the start, assuming that outdoor area is the start. Typically, you have to run around in the dungeon for a bit first before you get to this. It also allows you to see the rules of the dungeon ahead of time and what you'll actually need that item for.
Also, I suggest you work with someone else on this to flesh out more ideas and such.
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I agree with MG on his points. The main thing is that it'd definitely too small, and a bit confusing, because I can't tell where to start! I would also like more outdoor spaces, particularly once you get the hookshot.
I think it'd make most sense if you had to go through the bottom floors of the crumbling Kokori Temple to get the hookshot, which allowed you to traverse the canopy, which allows you to reach otherwise in accessible parts of the dungeon. It would also be pretty cool if the boss battle was in the canopy, but that's just me :p
The great things about this map are the way you did the treetops, though. They're a bit rough with their overlap some places, but the idea is solid, and genius. I also love the leaves around the door by the canopy part.
Also, in dungeon designs, if you want to do something like branches the player walks across or giant trees or anything that hasn't been sprited, just use placeholder graphics and we'll fix it up to looking' beautiful later.
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Personally I think you should use the minish woods tileset and dungeon tileset as a base for the dungeon, it has a more mysterious feel to it. Also I agree with max about the dungeon progression. I always pictured this dungeon as a damp and dark (but not dark in a particularly evil way, moreso in just being in the heart of the forest) sort of dungeon where you spent a lot of time underground, coming out at a few places to traverse some dense foresty areas with rotten logs and a thick canopy overhead, so rather dark. Although the idea of going into the canopy is good too, I think it would make sense to climb up there at some point after getting the grapple.
Also the length of the dungeon probably needs to be minimum 3-4 times as long as it is right now :P
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Okay, the rest is really nice, but I have to say this. "The dungeon design stinks." It is really bad, however it is your first try and this topic is about improving it. Before you read my post further go to this page (http://vgmaps.com/Atlas/GBA/index.htm#LegendOfZeldaMinishCap) and look at how Nintendo build their maps.
Okay, you are done looking. Then here are some pointers that you seriously need to take a look at.
1) Your dungeon is way to short. It looks like it is done in five minutes. That is if I have the route correct, because it is not very clear on that.
2) Where is the entrance. It is not clear where the entrance to the temple is, but I assume it is the part with the trees. However this means that you get the hookshot right at the beginning. And you don't use the boomerang to get in the dungeon as the GDD ask. But that is something to be debated if you have a better idea.
3) Where is the end. I see a room with a heart contair when you defeat the boss. However the room does not really lend itself for a boss fight. Something that I thought was lacking in MC is a backroom/vault/altar thing where you recieve the quest item, in this case the cog.
4) Your dungeon only uses the sword to defeat enemies and hookshot to pull things. In this dungeon you also have the ability of the Boomerang and a considerable set of thieving skills. Use them, because even with this short dungeon I thought things were getting repetitive. Work with switches (like ground, block and wall switches). Even though grabbing, pushing, pulling, rolling, lifting, ledge jumping, pitfalling and drowning are not mentioned in the GDD, I think no one would mind if it was added. Make use of different heights on the same floor.
5) Your areas are disconnected. You have several separate rooms which do not even line up propperly. You have drawn lines between doors, but I cannot fit them well together. Either it is the size of the doors that do not match or the tiles. You use different tiles in each room. Also some doors have stairs in them, but the connecting door does not. This also kind of makes it confusing which room is on what floor. Is each room a different floor? Or are there some rooms on the same floor? It really is a mess.
6) This I have to agree with the rest. I think making it more of a tree structure instead of a tower would be better. It is more Kokiri like and suits the area much more. If there aren't any correct sprites/tiles to use, make a placeholder sprite/tile and give a description of what that placeholder should be. Or try creating new tiles, whatever suits you best. For placeholder you could also use a colored square.
Some guidelines in creating a map:
- Miniboss and dungeon item are about half way the dungeon. Never at the beginning.
- Connect the doors of the rooms on the same floor. Every room on the same floor should connect with the walls. Only the floors are separated.
- draw only lines between connecting doors on different floors.
- Put numbers in the room and give in text a walkthrough of the dungeon,
* mentioning the room number,
* providing a description of the initial state when entering the room
* providing the puzzle to solve at that moment
* Changes that happen when solving the puzzle.
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Oh, also, that section where you have to pull the statue: Nice idea, but I think the statue seems a bit heavy to pulled with the hookshot.
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OK, I think I understand what you mean, I will add another part before the entrance (it begins on the southest part of the map, in the top of a tree), change some of the places to make them look a bit more "foresty". Yes, is my first try, and well, I wanted to contribute, I will try my best for you to like it.
Oh, also, that section where you have to pull the statue: Nice idea, but I think the statue seems a bit heavy to pulled with the hookshot.
About that, it wouldn't be pulling the statue per se, it would be pull the triforce it has on the front side.
Personally I think you should use the minish woods tileset and dungeon tileset as a base for the dungeon...
About that, I've been searching for MC tilesets, but I haven't found any of them yet. If someone could give me a link to it, I'd be very thankful.
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MC tilesets are difficult to come by. I'm gonna be hunting some down, but if I can't find any, feel free to use placeholders.
Yes, is my first try, and well, I wanted to contribute, I will try my best for you to like it.
That's the purpose of this ;) Don't take it too hard, we're reviewing the dungeons section the harshest.
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Click Here (http://vgmaps.com/Atlas/GBA/index.htm#LegendOfZeldaMinishCap) I have found MC maps on VG Maps, You'll have to tile it yourself.
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Ok, check out this, I "destroyed" some parts of the map to make it look a bit more ancient and add more forest areas. Still, I will add later in the south another temple part, to be the beginning of the temple, so that way is longer, and the mini-boss is halfway. Also I added a couple of things for the boomerang, and a weight switch.
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p528/BlazeBigBang/ForestTemple-1.png)
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I still feel like the "defeat enemies" puzzles are too cramped together. I know you have more to add though, so we'll wait to see what you come up with for other parts.
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I've thought of a couple puzzles, Mind if I share?
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MC tilesets are difficult to come by. I'm gonna be hunting some down, but if I can't find any, feel free to use placeholders.
I ripped all the overworld once. The graphics resources section should contain tons of MC tiles. I could also take a look at what I ripped once that I have not yet uploaded here.
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I've thought of a couple puzzles, Mind if I share?
Tell me.
MC tilesets are difficult to come by. I'm gonna be hunting some down, but if I can't find any, feel free to use placeholders.
I ripped all the overworld once. The graphics resources section should contain tons of MC tiles. I could also take a look at what I ripped once that I have not yet uploaded here.
If you could tell me, where they are, I'd be really thankful.
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By couple puzzles I meant puzzle types.
-Pushable Statues & Blocks
-Boomerang Switches
-Special Parts in the tree area that either reveil pits or stains when cut.
-A Room with moving vines that swing back and forth slowly, and obsure whats behind them, so it could potentailly be like the dirt from MC but a sword would cut right through them.
For the MC Graphics:
Click Here (http://vgmaps.com/Atlas/GBA/index.htm#LegendOfZeldaMinishCap) I have found MC maps on VG Maps, You'll have to tile it yourself.
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By couple puzzles I meant puzzle types.
-Pushable Statues & Blocks
-Boomerang Switches
-Special Parts in the tree area that either reveil pits or stains when cut.
-A Room with moving vines that swing back and forth slowly, and obsure whats behind them, so it could potentailly be like the dirt from MC but a sword would cut right through them.
For the MC Graphics:
Click Here (http://vgmaps.com/Atlas/GBA/index.htm#LegendOfZeldaMinishCap) I have found MC maps on VG Maps, You'll have to tile it yourself.
Ok, thanks, I will have them in mind. Also thanks for the maps, I will keep working on this.
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No problem at all.
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In regard to tiles I had some really good sets that someone else made a few years ago, I'll try and dig them up.
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In regard to tiles I had some really good sets that someone else made a few years ago, I'll try and dig them up.
That'd be awesome
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Well, after some more editing, adding zones and a couple more of things, I bring you the new Forest Temple!
(http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p528/BlazeBigBang/ForestTemple-2.png)
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Can you make the image bigger?
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Well, for that I think better it's to attach the file.
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The holes on that room on the left, I think they should be somewhat visible, maybe a slightly darker spot. Also you have a hole right in front of the chest.
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Well, I put black holes for references. Of course there's a hole in front of the chest, so you will be "yay! After passing all the holes I have the cheeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhst *body hitting the floor* Holy crap, another hole", and you have to start all over and pass by the sides.
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If that's the intent, then we'll have to move the hole back a tile or two.
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There are a few places I don't follow, so make sure everything is labeled, like, what the chests are, what kinds of doors can be opened with what key when, what's in certain rooms, etc.
Also, there are a couple things that, if we'd end up using this layout, we'd tweak later when we decide on things, for example, I don't know if Link will be able to wall-run yet.
But besides those things, this is a pretty alright layout. A bit simple and short still, though. I feel like I'd come out of this dungeon like, is that all? It's also faurly linear, which is something that's tricky to avoid.
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Sorry I have to say this, but I just don't feel this dungeon. It lacks a lot in floow. It seems linear, but there are a lot of places to get trapped. For example the top chest. You can hookshot towards it, but you can't get back, without falling in the hole.
Second I don't get a sense of floors. I don't know which room is on which floor.
Third some rooms are seriously out of proportions. If you put this layout to a map in a menu, the rooms do not line up with each other.
Like I said before. Take a look at what Nintendo did with their dungeon maps.
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Personally, I think we need to develop a lot more of the game before we worry about the dungeons. I'm not very keen on this layout at all, but I'm a bit busy with exam revision to have time to actually mockup a layout. I'm actually considering developing a little tool to aid with making the dungeon layouts, probably not using tilesets but more for the actual layout of the dungeon. But I dunno. This is probably me overthinking things :P
Still, the layout looks really simple. I'd suggest taking a look at the dungeons from minish cap and trying to match that complexity.
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Ok, I will be adding some references for what chest opens wich door and all that.
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It's still kind of linear, I agree with dark on looking a MC dungeons for reference.
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With linear you mean that the player does it everything in a one-way trip?
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What I mean, The player doesn't have many rooms to go throught, and the next room the have to goto is close to the room they are in.
I'm more use to dungeons being more maze-like and large, the dungeons have to be challenging for their abilities and what items they have, you should take into consideration of about how much health the charactor will most likely have. They should also be fun to play.
Hope I made it clear. XD
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I meant to do it short because it was the first dungeon, but if you want it longer, longer will be! But not now, this will take time.
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I'll show you an example of a dungeon from one of the old CPs, it's has the first dungeon of links awakening in it and it is quite large.
Also, Later Dungeons end up being bigger than the first one.
Edit: Link uneeded.
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To everyone else who is posting, feel free to work on the design as well with Blaze. Dungeons are meant to be co-submissions, they're too much to handle for one person. I think this one can be really promising if more people contribute to the design. What I think would make this one stand out more is if there were more doorways in the main room (that one with the red carpet). We can really have the player running around a lot. I'll spit up some layouts later today to add to this :)
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I believe doing that would be better. Don't you think Z? Also, you seem really to know about dungeons. It'd be better if we worked together.
About the dungeon link you gave me, I don't have the program to use it. Could you show it to me in a PNG image?
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Oh sorry should have asked if you have Gamemaker 8.
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I haven't read this whole thread, but has anyone acknowledged that this map is just an edit of the Royal Crypt from The Minish Cap?
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Yup. I took some of the scenarios from the Royal Cript. The open area parts are edited trees. But yes, you're right, it's as the Royal Cript.
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A little update. I changed A LOT the Temple. This is just the 1F
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I want to help but I need some help since I got some questions.
The dungeon is part of the map or it doesn't matter the size?
apart from the sword and shield do you got into this point of the game?
what thief skills you masterz?
someone mentioned to add jumping roll etc into the dungeon, but what especially this are and how link can interact? which ones are exactly?
are we going to have mushroom jump like in mc?
apart from that some ideas I grabbed from MC map
http://loopyluke.com/zfgccp/LegendOfZelda-MinishCap-Hyrule.png
Add those weird green vines in the mountain region for this link to climb he would either grab? or push? them not sure which into water to make them grow.
they will also be green vines that won't need to grow they will be there as part of the game, instead of adding ladders we add this.
(perhaps since it's the first map we could add the other type of climbing wall to get the player used to them before entering the dungeon or in the dungeon)
The big vine ( in the MC map left from Link house) might be the entrance to the dungeon ( perhaps you get a magical seed as a small quest by buying it or by doing X mission )
from the hyrule castle we can add those trees to make a small maze or as part of decoration for the dungeon.
Same with the death trees from the mountain area and the death trees from the overworld ( the tall ones)
The dungeon will be separated into two areas the tree part of the dungeon and the ground part if you fall you end in the ground area. or in another tree
the deeper the dungeon the darker it will get and if you fall you end in a creepier ground area ( tthink of the graveyard of mc )
perhaps if you go too high you end in a cloud area like in mc?
we can use the vines from the swamp as spikes in the map and use the bridges from the swamp too, just make horizontal and vertical.
add a raining area or a windy area.. ( how about both haha)
use the barrel from the first dungeon of MC too.
just some ideas to help BlaceBigBang, I will give it a try with the mapping once I find time.
Also since it's the first dungeon we must make the player use almost all the abilities he has like jumping wall running, hiding from enemies, picpocketing etc, to make it more as a gimmick and to make them get used to how the abilities will help them beat the dungeon
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Download the Design Doc, you will get it better than if I explained here.
No, it's just the dungeon. I just made it too big the map XD
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We honestly haven't decided what thief moves Link will have when as of now. I'm gonna say that it's most likely (as it's most logical) that Link would learn vaulting, then tightrope walking, then wall running. The other thief moves strike me as ones he would just know, rather than learn. So I'd say, out of those three, maybe he'd know how to vault, or maybe not. Probably not wall running or tightrope walking.
I'll look over a lot more of this when I have more time... I'm super busy this week!
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Well, let me clear things a bit. I'm working in a whole new design for the Forest Temple.
It will have 4 floors: 1F, 2F, basement, and a kind of floor below the basement. The most maze-like part will be in the basement. The player will have to enter 4 times to the basement. I'm working this with zdude, so he'll help me with the basement, although I have a couple ideas for where to place chests and that.
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EDIT: Sorry to those who may have already read this but I decided to redo my post.
When the word "Forest Temple" comes to my mind I imagine:
* Vines/Thorns
* Leaf Overhangs
* Plants/Fungi
* Carpets
For the first puzzle, I imagine something simple. Like Link having to climb on a vine covered wall to cross a large gap to reach a floor switch. For another early puzzle I can imagine some plant hecking to find a key amongst the foliage and of course, some traditional boomerang puzzles (suggestion: keep the first boomerang switch stationary, then have the others move).
Some "kill enemies to open door" rooms would be good too.
If I recall this dungeon features the cog that makes tornadoes, so why not some wind based puzzles too in addition?
I imagine a maze screen, and the carpet indicates the correct way.
For scenery, non-climbable vines, glowing mushrooms, pollen and leaf overhangs might do the trick. For leaf overhangs try using them close to entrances that lead to outdoor areas and don't use them at all when you are deep within the dungeon, just for a neat effect.
For the boss room, I suggest it takes place indoors. Make the room unique by giving it exclusive tiles you won't be seeing anywhere else such as thorns (MC's level 1 boss had them on the side walls (http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/499614/images/image_024.JPG)) stained glass windows and perhaps a symbol on the floor that is covered in moss.
I say the size of this dungeon should match Deepwoods Shrine's size.
Thanks for reading my humble thoughts -- good luck Blaze and to also whoever else is working on this temple!
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Is just the layout. All the details, in case this dungeon is accepted, I will be adding them. Also check out the 1st floor. Also, now I'm working on the basement. That part will be more maze-like. About the battle field, I thought it to be outdoors, because everybody was saying that they prefered the open areas, but it's the same.
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Here is what could improve the look of the dungeon:
* The dungeon rooms are too square, try to give a more inspiring and fancier shape.
* The floor placement in the entrance screen feels cluttered to the right and empty to the left - try and scatter them more a bit.
* The treetop structure feels unnatural - some are even placed symmetrically.
Overall though, it's a solid and functional map.
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* The dungeon rooms are too square, try to give a more inspiring and fancier shape.
I don't know what do you mean with this.
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I think he's trying to say that your rooms are too grid-like, as if they're pre-generated by some program. (i.e. Phantasy Star as an example, or the .heck// series on the ps2)
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I'm doing it by myself. Oh no, I'm a program! :o
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Lol! Of course not, Blaze.. just curious, are you improvising this design? If you are, then that would be your problem. See, like how you have the series of rooms going on in the middle? They're literally the same size/shape, there's almost no diversity among them. That's what I was trying to get at. Like, change things up a little.. to give it flow, if you know what I mean. Just reference Nintendo's dungeon designs. Each room is presented differently for some puzzle or just mere aesthetics, to keep things fresh.
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Yep, basically what gm112 said. =P Give each room different tile placement and room shape and I'm sure that will do the trick. =)
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So, what you're saying is to change tiles?
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He means that the rooms are similar, he also means that they should be a little bit more improvised, or irregualr in shape I guess. Thats what I feel he's saying.
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Here I have a sketch for a QUARTER PART of the Basement, done by me and my pencil. I know it looks horrible, but it's what I got. The "TD", means trapdoor, but in this case is Mimic Door (I just got informed that trapdoor doesn't mean that is a trap door XD). In case of getting rejected, I'd have to change all that. For looking at it well, you must rotate the image 90º to the right. Then, the most north-east point, will be a place near the Boss Key room. Don't care about that.
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That's fricken huge for a quarter part.
PS. I had to download it to actually get a good look at it.
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Is just that the 1F will be very short.
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You still seem to be stuck on the grid layout that Shane and GM mentioned.
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I'm already working on that, but I'm not sure if it's OK. Check what I have 'till now
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Tomorrow is my last day of school (woo!), so in my three free weeks I will work much more on everything abou KoT, but first of all, I will redo this.
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Just to remember, this topic hasn't been forgotten. I'm working the map with a couple of friends in school, and we're improving the design. Then, I'll take it to paint and make it look how it'd be. It will be just a sketch, so, then should be tiled.
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That is fine. :) Normally we'd make a post in the topic if we were really concerned with the status of the entry is.. Though thanks for the status update. :) Collaboration is usually an awesome thing, too.
Oh and keep your eyes on this page. I just made it, it has the resolution on there which is kind of important when making maps. (http://wiki.zfgc.com/KOT:Game_Engine)
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That is fine. :) Normally we'd make a post in the topic if we were really concerned with the status of the entry is.. Though thanks for the status update. :) Collaboration is usually an awesome thing, too.
Oh and keep your eyes on this page. I just made it, it has the resolution on there which is kind of important when making maps. (http://wiki.zfgc.com/KOT:Game_Engine)
Sure, but I'll just sketch the Temple design. Maybe, later I'll do the Forest Temple per se.
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Before I forget to tell you about the desing:
-The Dungeon will have three basements, and in each of the floors, two main big rooms with a lot of puzzles (except for the third basement). At the end of this two big rooms there'll be chests with the Map and the Compass and switches for the stairs
-The access to the Second Floor is on the center of the room, and when completing the two rooms, the platform will go down in form of stairs. The stairs doesn't lead Link to the center of the room, but to the south of the room
-The first time Link enters the Second Basement, Tilo will come out to taunt Link saying "I'm impressed how a silly boy like you was able to go through. Probably the keeses where asleep, weren't they?", and then she'll summon the mini-boss. When Link defeats it, a chest will appear on the in the center of the room
-To access the third basement, Link'll have to complete the two big rooms of the second basement. Then, when Link stands on the center of the room, the floor will open and fall into the third basement
-In the third basemente there'll be a puzzle and at the end of it there'll be the Boss Key. After the long puzzle, Link'll see a big tree in front of him, and a huge pit. The player must let Link fall in it, where he'll find the Boss Door. Once the player has opened the door, he'll stand in a wooden platform in wich a wind current will blow Link atop of the tree seen before. There it'll be the boss
-Once the boss is defeated, another wind current will blow Link to the entrance of the temple
The puzzles will varie, from having wind currents to Tilo messing with Link. Why the wind currents at the end of the temple? Pretty much because of the cog. What do you guys think about this?
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Hey, with the pretty much finalized enemy list, don't forget to include the appropriate ones in your design! :)
As for your most recent post, I never really saw Tilo as a character that would speak. She would just kind of giggle and scream at the appropriate times. I do however, like the idea of her summoning the mini boss!
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Haha, from what I read, she'd be bothering/helping Link. But how can she bother/help Link without knowing that she has "bad" intentions? Just because she taunts Link.
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You can tell what her intentions are by what she does :)