ZFGC

ZFGC CP => King of Thieves => Management => Topic started by: MG-Zero on February 19, 2013, 03:54:39 pm

Title: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 19, 2013, 03:54:39 pm
Alright, here is where we'll be discussing the Zora arc of the story.

Currently we know that the high members of the Zora family are kidnapped and are at war with the Zolas...and uhh...that's it.

And this is what the wiki says about Zoras:

Quote
The traders of Hyrule, they have been responsible for maintaining the water passageways. They house their cog in the Lake Hylia Temple ,their most sacred grounds. They are stuck in a conflict with the River Zolas, who have kidnapped the heirs and invaded Lake Hylia
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: BlazeBigBang on February 19, 2013, 04:18:37 pm
So, once this is solved, will you be reviewing the thing of the Zorkas?
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 19, 2013, 05:28:46 pm
They'll be considered as we develop this.  Seems like an easy fit for this part of the story, though.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Kami on February 19, 2013, 07:56:46 pm
So I have some questions that we probably should think about when defining the zora arc:
~Why are they at war with each other?
~How are we going to transition into this arc
~Who kidnapped the high members of the zora family
~any issues among themselves


I have some thoughts though I'm going to have organise them before I post them here.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 19, 2013, 09:47:17 pm
We know that the royal family members were kidnapped by the Zolas.  I'm not sure if we discussed why they were at war, I'll have to check.

EDIT: Nope, we didn't.  From the looks of it, we made Zoras traders and waterway maintainers.  Perhaps we could play off this, something like the Zolas wanted control of Zora's Domain?  Those who control the water ways control trade among Hyrule.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on February 20, 2013, 01:06:23 pm
I don't think the Zolas are smart enough to want control of a area for trade. They're kinda just monsters like moblins, or if they aren't, we should define that right off the bat.

I was thinking something like maybe the Zora built a trading post dock thing over a confluence sacred to the Zola, or perhaps the Zora or Hylians built a bridge/dam in that altered the river's flow, and now the Zola need new territory because their old territory got messed up.

I also had the idea that the water temple belonged to the Zola instead of the Zora, perhaps the cog was given to the tribe before they split into civilized and uncivilized? But the Zora see the island created by the way temple's roof is a great place fore a trading post and they come in and try to colonize. The Zola obviously don't want this.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 20, 2013, 10:59:30 pm
Maybe they could have a conflict dating back to their origins? A your diety is wrong mine is right kind of thing
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Kami on February 20, 2013, 11:15:03 pm
I like the MG's of the Deity conflict. I'd assume the Zola's deity would be their Deity of War, Sacrifice and Competition.
If that be so, what'd we have the Zora's deity be as?

I also think that the temple idea could be a good addition, make it so there was more of a spark for the war, making the Zola feel that the Zora crossed the line too far.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 22, 2013, 03:46:10 pm
They could also be attacking the temple with the intent of removing the Zora Diety and putting their own in place, which could be the temple boss.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on February 23, 2013, 05:58:53 pm
Conflict of religion would work, as would conflict of territory. Do we have any other ideas? I'm interested to see what Niek has to say, he's had some pretty well developed ideas for the other parts of the game.
Title: THIRD Chapter
Post by: Zaeranos on February 23, 2013, 06:19:46 pm
Let me first say this. You most likely mean third Chapter, because the third act kinda starts from the moment that Link decides to go to the final dungeon to defeat Ganon. The third act is the hero's resolve, where he finally overcomes his shortcomings. Acts and chapters are different. Each good story always has 3 acts, but can have an arbitrary number of chapters.

Okay, now let me get back to the point. This is my idea about the Zora part:

The Zola
Instead of making them river Zola, may be they are Zola from a far away land. They are something like the Vikings in Europe's past. They have come to Hyrule (up the river) to plunder and pillage everything. Because the Zora's look similar and are also aquatic creatures the Zola see the Zora as the biggest thread. The Zola have put up their stronghold downstream in River Valley near the entrance to Lake Hylia. Effectively blocking access to Lake Hylia for everyone.



Story
This the story I thought up with the above idea for the Zola. Before going immediately to the Zora area, it is probably better for Link to go back to Castle Town for some story bits. This also shows the player that there is an opportunity to take up sidequests in Castle Town and interact with with the gang and other people.

First Link goes back to the Gerudo King. The King tells Link that he found out about the possible locations for 2 more cogs from the Castle Library. These cogs were taken into care by a Zora and a Goron family. Link should visit them for the cogs. If Link tries to go to Goron Mountain he finds his way blocked due to a landslide. Some Gorons are working on clearing the path.

Link can also not go to the inner part of Zora's Domain yet, because he cannot swim. Zora's Domain inner part where the Zora have retreated is only reachable through swimming as this gives better protection against enemies and especially land monsters. (I know the GDD says the flippers are granted to Link by the Zora royalty, but bare with me for now)

In Castle Town Link meets a Distressed Deku Merchant, who tells Link that Zola bandits robbed him of his merchandise. Seeing that Link has a sword he asks him for help. Link sets out to get the merchandise back from the Zola. Link finds the Zola raiding party that stole the merchandise and defeats them. As Link picks up the merchandise he is attacked by another party and a Huge Zola, who is apparently their leader. The Zola leader knocks Link out cold. As Link passes out the leader orders his men to leave Link alone, because they just caught a more valuable price (a reference to the kidnapped royal children) that they need to haul back quickly.

As Link wakes up he returns the merchandise to the Deku merchant in Castle Town. The merchant is so gratefull that he offers Link his stuff for a reduced price. Among the stuff is a pair of flippers the merchant wanted to sell to a rich guy for 10.000 ruppees, but he is willing to give it to Link for merely 100 ruppees. The flippers were created by a Goron who wanted to visit the Zora once, but once he finished the flippers it seems that they were to small to keep a Goron afloat.

Link buys the flippers and can now swim to Zora's Domain to meet the Zora King. Zora tell him about the tragedy that has befallen them and that they can no longer go to there sacred place in Lake Hylia to pray for a good ending. One of the Zola Raiding parties under the Zola leader succeeded in kidnapping the Zora royal children and bring them to the Zola stronghold near the entrance to Lake Hylia. They are ransoming them, but the Zora are proud and the King is scared that they will ransom more or even get killed anyway. In addition is the plundering of the Zola also a big problem for the traders traveling through River Valley.

Eventually Link is asked by the Zora King to use his thieving skills to sneak through the back into the Zola's stronghold and rescue the kidnapped children. If Link incidentally defeats their leader in the process it will be a benefit. Link goes to rescue the children, but gets caught by the Zola leader. This time Link defeats him and the Zola scatter. The Zora warriors then enter the stronghold to get the children back. After this it will be more quiet, but there will still be Zola raiding party around.

Link can then continue to Lake Hylia. Somewhere in Lake Hylia Link sees a large patch of Ice. On the shore is a hut of the smithy brother Sheldon. He tells Link the story about some ancient devices along Lake Hylia 's shore that can raise the Temple's entrance above water level. He knows of one such device, but has never been able to successfully raise the Temple entrance, so he thinks there are more such devices.

Link sets out to find the (3) devices. At the first device he meets Maple, who was told the same by the ancient hero. She uses her magic on the device to turn it on, but accidentally destroys it. Link asks Sheldon's help to fix it. Sheldon can fix it, but he requires materials which were difficult to get due to the Zola blockade. Link has to get materials from various areas in Hyrule.

After Link brings him the materials, Sheldon starts fixing the device. Link will look for the second device. After he turns on the second device and emerges from the hidden cave, Link is attacked by some Zola. They want revenge on Link for defeating their leader.

For the third device Link has to find a dive spot next to Lake Hylia's cliffs. Diving in this spot, makes Link emerge in a hidden underground cavern where the third device is. Once Link emerges from this cave, Sheldon turns on the first device and the entrance to Temple will burst out through the ice spot, leaving only a small spot of Ice for Link to climb on and Link to enter the dungeon. However Maple flies in before him.

Inside the dungeon Link will meet Maple again, where she has been knocked out cold by the mini-boss of the temple. She will be out cold and seeing stars until Link has left the temple with the cog.


I like the MG's of the Deity conflict. I'd assume the Zola's deity would be their Deity of War, Sacrifice and Competition.
If that be so, what'd we have the Zora's deity be as?

I also think that the temple idea could be a good addition, make it so there was more of a spark for the war, making the Zola feel that the Zora crossed the line too far.

I think you might be carefull with naming deities to abstract ideals and such. In every Zelda game there are three Goddesses as the highest deities in Hyrule. There are some lower deities, but they primarily guardians of a race or land. Such as Jabu Jabu, Deku Tree, Valloo and so on.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 25, 2013, 03:27:49 pm
Quote
The King tells Link that he found out about the possible locations for 2 more cogs from the Castle Library.

I'd suggest making this one cog for now and making it two for the Goron and Shiekah arcs.  Reason being is the mountains and desert are so close to each other, the player is intended to go from one directly to the other.

There are a few other silly things, in particular why would a Goron want to see the Zoras?  They know very well that they'll sink like rocks in water, even with a pair of flippers.

I also again like in the Deku/Kokiri arc, don'twant to give the player too much to do.  Having them fight the Zolas first to go and then rescue the royal family after seems like a lot, especially considering we'd already have given them the flippers.

Title: THIRD Chapter
Post by: Zaeranos on February 25, 2013, 06:54:30 pm
Quote
The King tells Link that he found out about the possible locations for 2 more cogs from the Castle Library.

I'd suggest making this one cog for now and making it two for the Goron and Shiekah arcs.  Reason being is the mountains and desert are so close to each other, the player is intended to go from one directly to the other.
Actually, I was thinking of having Link get the location of the 4th Cog from another source. There was some mention of resolving Maple's story with the Gorons. I was thinking that in order to get to the 4th cog the ancient Hero would turn to Link, because he has the other three already. And then convince Link of giving up the cogs.


There are a few other silly things, in particular why would a Goron want to see the Zoras?  They know very well that they'll sink like rocks in water, even with a pair of flippers.
That one was intentionally silly, but it doesn't have to be in the game. We could also make it that a Goron made it but then considered that Gorons would simply sink. Even with flippers  XD


I also again like in the Deku/Kokiri arc, don'twant to give the player too much to do.  Having them fight the Zolas first to go and then rescue the royal family after seems like a lot, especially considering we'd already have given them the flippers.
Considering the story between the start of the game and the first dungeon this is rather short.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on February 26, 2013, 03:49:49 pm
I actually really like the story you have, Niek! I do have so issues, but to address what MG said:

I completely disagree that giving the player the locations of two cogs at once is too much. In MC, you got all 4 elements marked on your map at the beginning, although you could only access one at a time due to items being necessary to traverse the map. Link can find out that the next cog is with the Gorons but still have to return to Hyrule town to make it possible to get to the mountains. I think marking both at once is fine and gives the player more of an opportunity to explore and discover which he has to do first, rather than being like "go here, then go here, then go here" dictated by the designers.

About the silliness of the Goron wanting to see the Zora and therefore making flippers, I think it's wonderfully silly, because it's a completely nonessential part of the game. We can make it a tidbit you can discover talking to some NPC, I like it.

Uh, more to say, but I gotta run off to work! Sushi to roll and all that!
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 26, 2013, 03:58:22 pm
Well not that I was saying 2 cogs at once is too much, but I thought it would be better to give them 2 cog locations starting with the Gorons.  Since the mountains lead directly to the valley of death, I thought this would be a more sensible place to give 2 locations.  But hey, whatever works, right?
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on February 27, 2013, 10:28:43 pm
Yeah, that's a valid point too. Maybe being told all 3 would work best? Honestly, I think this is a pretty small point, we can worry about it later, probably.

As for the Zora part, I like most of what you've come up with, Niek, a lot! I think giving Link a lead to go on inside Hyrule Town is a great idea. I think it might be a good idea to speak to the noticeability of the Deku merchant, perhaps he has a wagon or something just inside the city gates, or just outside? We probably want to make sure the player notices him, although I don't think forcing the interaction is necessary, just noticing that he's there and wasn't before should do it. Also, where will this skirmish with the Zola raiding party take place?

Anyway, what I was mainly thinking was that everything you have here seems like too much before the dungeon? Like, everything through going into the Zola fort and rescuing the Zora royalty seems good, and so does finding out that there are ancient mechanisms, but then having to leave, collect items to fix stuff, then reach the mechanisms seems like a lot. I don't think the player should need to leave after finding the mechanisms.

Perhaps the player could simply talk to Sheldon, who tells Link about the mechanisms, then Link activates them. Maybe battles Maple before activating the final one?
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 28, 2013, 01:50:33 am
Yea, I was weary about going all around Hyrule to find parts for the mechanisms.  Maybe there could be an optional 4th mechanism that could use that for a sidequest?

I'd say activating the 3 with a small puzzle for each and then fighting Maple would suffice.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on March 04, 2013, 03:34:09 pm
I agree, Steve, what do you think Niek?

So to sum it up, we have?:

After the Deku arc, Link goes back to Castle Town.

He meets a deku merchant whose goods were stolen by Zola.

Link hunts down the Zola (where?) and defeats some, but is defeated by their captain. They leave him and the merchant's goods to pursue the Zora royals, though.

Link returns the Deku merchant's goods, and the Deku will sell Link flippers.

Link can now swim, so he explores the Zora area, finds out that the royalty has been kidnapped and taken to the Zola fort.

He goes to the Zola fort and sneaks in, freeing the Zola royals and defeating the Zola captain. The Zola leave their fort, which is then taken over by Zora troops.

Link can now get into Lake Hylia, where Sheldon resides, studying the ancient mechanisms and inner workings of the lakebed temple. Link can activate ancient mechanisms which will open the door of the temple. When he activates the last one, he is attacked and fights off Maple.

Link can then enter the next temple.



Any ideas on incorporating the overarching story a little bit more here? Maybe showing that the Hero's shade is trying to have Maple collect the cogs and doesn't want Link to?
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on March 29, 2013, 09:08:53 pm
Ok so one or two things:

The location of the Zolas that Link is hunting down should probably be near the Castle Town somewhere.  They couldn't have gotten that far after stealing the goods.

As for the Zola fort.  What do you think of having maybe 3 of them along the river?  Link would have to travel the river in order to free the captive family members.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Kami on March 29, 2013, 09:10:41 pm
I don't think there'd be many forts along the river, but maybe a some war camps and then the last one being a fort would work.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on March 29, 2013, 09:12:44 pm
That could work as well!  We could have Link fight off some Zolas at each camp before continuing.  Similar to the Bokoblin rush in Skyward Sword, but on a much smaller scale.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on April 29, 2013, 02:10:59 pm
Wow, I havn't thought about this in quite a while :p

Anyway, since story development o a little stalled here, we should try and resume. This whole Zora/Zola thing sounds good. There will be 2-3 smaller camps where Link will have to rescue Zora roalty before he can get into the fort, which blocks the entrance to Lake Hylia.

What if at each small encampment, Link has the option to either charge in and fight a bunch of Zola, or he can sneak in and free the Zora? I think it'd be more interesting to present the player with a choice.

Secondly, after Link defeats the Zola at their fort, he'll gain access to Lake Hylia and solve the mystery of the ancient mechanical devices with Sheldon, activating 2-3 of them before he encounters Maple at the last one.

I think connecting this area to the overarching story could be as simple as having Maple say things like, "Why do you keep stopping me? Do you even know what you're doing?" Before fighting Link.


Oh, and finally, since Link is going back to Hyrule Town, do we want him to meet up with Ganon before seeing the Deku get robbed? Ganon would learn about Maple and start to realize that the ancient hero is working against him. Something like that?...
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on April 30, 2013, 01:10:54 am
I like the idea of giving them an option, it allows the player to take advantage of their thieving skills!

As for Ganon, they probably should meet before hand.  It's like a status update for him.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on April 30, 2013, 05:15:43 pm
Status Update for Ganon?

"Hittin up the milk bar, Bongo Bongo's playing a set. We'll see if I even remember it, YOLO!"

Actually though, we need to convey some play to justify having Link meet up with Ganon. Maybe an interaction with Zelda along the way where she hints that she doesn't trust Ganon, or doesn't trust Link, or something? "I hear you've joined forces with the Gerudo King. That's an interesting decision, I hope your quest ends as it should..." Or something, and after that Zelda instructs the guards in the castle to throw you out if you get caught there, which adds challenge as well as shows that Zelda doesn't trust Link and Ganon.

Perhaps this would even apply to the market, maybe the guards didn't pay attention to Link between getting nice clothes and now.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on May 02, 2013, 04:08:49 pm
Going further on the clothing thing, maybe Link can get caught on the way out of the castle after meeting Ganon which makes the guards notice him again
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on May 10, 2013, 12:13:20 pm
He guys I'm sorry that it took so long for replying. I have read up on the discussion and made some of my comments. I shall make them in the chronological order of the story.

1 ) I think that Link is going back to the Gerudo King is pretty much given. I don't think additional nudging would be necessary. To the player he is still a benevolent character at that moment. Not to mention that the Gerudo King would have told Link to return because he would research the locations of the others.

2 ) I think at that time it is best that the Gerudo King would give the locations of all 3 remaining cogs to Link. One with the Zora, one with the Gorons and one with the Hylian Royal Family (which we know is not with the Royal Family, but the player doesn't) and the Gerudo King would be better to search for the last ones location, because he can move freely through the Castle.

3 ) Mentioning Maple at this point is probably not to relevant on the story's progress. Because the Gerudo King would not reveal his true identity yet. Or he might not care because he already knows and knows that Link can best Maple, the hero cannot enter the shrines himself and he believes Link to be under his control. The Gerudo King would just be scheming at this point and let the future unfold.

4 ) Link would meet the Gerudo King in the Castle and when he leaves he would be caught by guards who want to throw him in the dungeon. But they are interrupted by Zelda. She recognizes Link from earlier and asks him what his business was in the Castle. Link answers that he had a meeting with the Gerudo King, but doesn't get the chance to go into more detail. Zelda starts to mumble that the Gerudo King has been spending a lot of time in the Castle's Royal Library lately. She then orders the guards to escort Link out of the Castle instead of to the dungeon. Once Link is outside the Castle he cannot get back in due to increased security.

5 ) The Deku Merchant would be standing in Castle Town next to a Gate visibly crying. You could even have a guard or a character like Eugene taking his statement and maybe one of the gangmembers trying to comfort him. They do not need to block the entrance or something as this gathering would probably be plenty of visible. The Zola who robbed the merchant are still on Hyrule Field on the path towards River Valley assessing the loot.

6 ) My initial thought for the fort was to give the player the option for sneaking or just battling his way in. But I do like the idea of several camps before the fort as well. We could  even rate the player on how he goes through the fort (sneaking or battling) and have the reactions of the prince and princess depend on it. Having the princess preffer using her mind and thus sneaking and the prince preffer to use brawn and thus battling.

7 ) Collecting the materials isn't necessary and can be scrapped. I had the idea for lengthening the story because this part seemed short compared to the Hyrule Town/Deku/Kokiri part towards the first dungeon. But hey scrapping it is just fine with me, when you put small puzzles in place to the ancient devices.

8 ) I think that Link should battle Maple at the first device and the battle would damage the device [The why I will tell later]. You then get Sheldon and he will work to repair it. In the mean time Link goes looking for the other devices and turn them on. Once Link emerges from the 3rd device on to Lake Hylia again. A rumbling starts, because Sheldon turned on the first device again. Link will see the entrance rise from the center of Lake Hylia.
On the shore you will see the ancient Hero and Maple. Maple tells the hero something like "I was right in letting that idiot do the hard work for us. Wasn't I?" (As if that would rectify her earlier mistake) And Maple would then quickly rush into the Temple before Link. The hero would then disappear and reappear before Link. He warns/threatens Link that Link's life and every life in Hyrule would come to a horrible end if he continues on his path. And the hero would then leave again.
Link continues into the dungeon. He finds Maple knocked out by the Mini-boss. Link defeats the boss and gets the Cog.
Once Link emerges and gets back to shore he is attacked by a group of Zola wanting revenge for their fallen leader. But he fends them of.

Now for the whys of that last bit:
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on May 11, 2013, 06:41:18 pm
I agree with almost all of your points, and we should probably sum this section up in a bit. Couple questions though,

Why does Ganon tell Link that the last cog is with the royal family? What's the point of this?

Just the wording of the Hero's shade's dialogue, I don't think he should call Link an idiot, he should be benevolent. The hero is always really kind harted and pure.

The entrance rising from the lake will probably have to be scrolled to anyway, I don't think there will be anywhere you can stand to see the middle of the lake and the whole entrance, I imagine it to be a kinda big sprite, so it doesn't matter where Link is when he activates the last one. Therefore, it makes more sense to me that Link activates the 3rd one, goes back to Sheldon, who activates the first one. Then the screen will cut to the lake rising, then cut to the hero and Maple. Then as Link is about to walk into the temple, the hero can talk to him. What do you think?



Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on May 11, 2013, 09:11:54 pm
Quote
Why does Ganon tell Link that the last cog is with the royal family? What's the point of this?

Perhaps the creators of the cog made it appear as if the royal family had the last cog.  Maybe Ganon isn't even aware that the Shiekah have it until doing some research on his own time.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on May 12, 2013, 07:04:29 am
Why does Ganon tell Link that the last cog is with the royal family? What's the point of this?
Ganon did research in the Library and found a recording that when the Sacred Realm was sealed the cogs were divided over the Gorons, Zora, Deku/Kokiri and Hylians. He did not find out that the Hylian Royal Family passed on their cog to the Sheikah (who are their trusted servants) for save keeping.

Just the wording of the Hero's shade's dialogue, I don't think he should call Link an idiot, he should be benevolent. The hero is always really kind harted and pure.
That is not said by the Hero. It is said by Maple, who wants to boost the Hero's confidence in her after being defeated by Link at the first device. And Maple can be that insulting.

The entrance rising from the lake will probably have to be scrolled to anyway, I don't think there will be anywhere you can stand to see the middle of the lake and the whole entrance, I imagine it to be a kinda big sprite, so it doesn't matter where Link is when he activates the last one. Therefore, it makes more sense to me that Link activates the 3rd one, goes back to Sheldon, who activates the first one. Then the screen will cut to the lake rising, then cut to the hero and Maple. Then as Link is about to walk into the temple, the hero can talk to him. What do you think?
I think that is not such good idea. The reason for this is that the player experiences the world and the story through Link. Thus cutting away from Link to show events in another area breaks this bond. I know the Minish Cap did this, but it was also one of the bad things. Having Link in the same area he can see the entrance rise and he can overhear (with his Hylian ears)  the conversation about him. The player experiences these events through Link.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on May 13, 2013, 09:50:20 pm
Ah, alright, so the transferring of the cog from Hylian to Sheikah will be a plot point later. Coolio.

Also, thought you had the hero saying that idiot about Link, m'bad :p

About the screen scrolling to give the player a decent view of what's going on though, plenty of Zelda games do that, I feel like almost all the 2D ones did. ALTTP scrolled over to show you what happened when you pressed a switch, like which door opened, I'm pretty sure the oracle games did too. Let me try to understand what you're saying: you don't think the player should see anything that Link isn't looking at, to retain immersion in the character? I agree with that.

However, it's just a logistics thing. If you only want the player to see things through Link as strictly as you're proposing, you HAVE to have a first-person perspective. The problem with our perspective is that we're looking at Link top-down, and Link is looking forward out of his eyes. So Link can see plenty of things in front ("above" to us on our computer screens) that the player can't see on his screen.

Dealing with a big thing like a temple entrance that Link can't even walk up to when he triggers it's action, you need to scroll the player's screen in order to see what Link is seeing. I'm not saying we completely cut away to an area Link can't see at all, I'm saying we'll have to scroll the player's view up a few tiles to that the player can see the temple rising out of the lake like Link sees.

Also, lake like link is like a typing tongue twister. I messed that up so many times XD


I guess we're probably just misunderstanding what each other means :p

Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on May 14, 2013, 07:24:39 pm
Okay, I think we kinda mean the same thing, but we are misunderstanding each other at the moment.

I have nothing against the view scrolling to a different position of the area where Link is in. And yes, many Zelda games did this. A number of Zelda games even showed something very different when a character told a memory or story. And even some games linger a bit at the entrance just after Link leaves or right before Link enters an area. These things are something that do not break the immersion, because the player is always a few steps before or after or at the same position as Link. View scrolling in an area is not a problem.

However something MC did was to let the player know what was happening in another area where Link is not. For example when Link is on Hyrule Field they suddenly skipped back to Hyrule Castle to show the King sending out knights to look for the light force. When this happens the player knows more than Link knows and the bond is broken. This is what I dislike. The player should be surprised at the same time Link is surprised.

So to clarify about how I see it. The ancient devices are hidden in a couple of caves and Sheldon is repairing the first device in a cave. Thus Link is not in the area of Lake Hylia, when he activates the second or third device. Neither would he be if he would go to Sheldon to activate the first device. Thus when Link leaves the third device cave is when the cutscene event is triggered that the entrance rises.

It could start by hearing a very loud "WOOOOOOOOHHHHHHOOOOOOOO!!!!!" from Sheldon coming from the first cave. The world starts to rumble, the view would scroll to the place where the entrance rises. Next the camera scrolls to the Hero and Maple, who have their conversation and Maple enters the dungeon. The hero vanishes and the view scrolls back to Link, where the Hero reappears and confronts Link. The Hero disappears again and the player gets the control back.

I don't want to do the Hero's confrontation with Link at the Temple entrance, because after the rising cutscene the player wants to continue playing and do the dungeon already. It would be irritating if the player would be interrupted again with a forced plot event so short after the cutscene with the entrance rising. Having the confrontation in the same cutscene makes the cutscene a bit longer, but it does make these plot events happen in one go instead of little bits of pieces.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on May 16, 2013, 09:20:52 pm
Yeah, I guess the big thing is that I was imagining the ancient mechanisms in the Lake Hylia area, as is Sheldon's house. So either way, we wouldn't be cutting away, so either could work. The main reason I suggest having Link go back to the first mechanism and activate it himself is this:

If Link starts out with one broken mechanism and the player knows that he's got two more to find, and then one to fix, when the player finds the second one, they're not expecting that to be the end, they're expecting to have to go back to the first one to fix it. They're thinking there's more stuff to do, but it's cut off earlier then they expected. I've always found it dissatisfying in a game to expect a big task, then find out that somebody else did it and you just have to move on now. I think it's better to have a task set before you, then complete it all yourself.

Even if the last one is just Link comes back and Sheldon says, "hey, can you hold this for me while I... woah! It works!" or even "hey, I was waiting for you to come back before I went ahead and pressed this... woah!" Then the player doesn't have more expectations than he should about the amount of stuff to do.

It's not a big deal, I just think the payoff is a little stronger this way.


About having the cutscene all in one, that's a good point, it definitely does free up the player all at once, which is nice. It changes the attitude into an "alright, watching's over, let's do this".


So, about the Zola raiding party attacking Link at the end. I dunno, it feels kind of tacked on, because as a player, we defeated the Zola long ago, they're all taken care of. Then we've been thinking about the dungeon, we aren't even focusing on the present time with it's Zora/Zola conflict, we are looking at ancient mechanisms, wondering why they built this place eons ago, what purpose it could hold, what the cogs are really for, maybe we're starting to wonder if that ghost dude with Maple was telling the truth about Hyrule's life coming to an end.
And then those Zola show up again? I thought we were past this. Kill 'em, shouldn't be as difficult as the BOSS BATTLE I just did seconds ago.

And THEN we move onto the Gorons.

I feel like bringing the Zola back in disrupts the flow, and rather than feeling like a conclusion, it feels tacked on pointlessly and disruptfullly. What if we find a better way to bring a conclusion in?

Perhaps in gratitude for your help, when you get out of the dungeon, there's a Zora waiting for you who tells you to meet as such and such place up the river. If you go upstream, you find Zora Royalty waiting for you, and they open some blockade such as a dam or something, allowing Link to swim further upstream into the mountains?
-Later he can come back and open and land route into the mountains, but perhaps for now, this is the only way in?

The only problem with this is that it doesn't allow for Link to return to Hyrule Town in between dungeons, which he should do.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on June 10, 2013, 08:41:37 pm
Just 2 cents on the whole Zola after the dungeon thing.  Let's say the boss has some sort of pendant on him that Link takes back to the Zora as proof of his victory.  The Zola could approach Link to attack, who then shows the relic.  The Zola then realized whats happened and flee in fear.

Now, this map scrolling business.  I agree with Niek that the player should only know what Link knows. Thus if the temple rises while Link is not in the area, they should not know.  To resolve this, we can have an NPC frantically looking upon the lake (perhaps Sheldon?) who will tell Link that something wacky happened under the lake.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on June 13, 2013, 01:43:47 pm
About the scrolling, my argument is that watching the temple rise would be cool. If we can animate that in an awesome way, then Link should be in the area for whatever reason to watch it rise. However, if watching it rise isn't awesome, then he doesn't even need to be there.

For a conclusion, perhaps having the Zola fear Link isn't as fulfilling as having the Zola fear the Zora. I mean, Link has already defeated the Zola in several places, but the Zora are the good guys but haven't done much. What if the Zola attack Link wanting revenge, but the young Zora royalty, the prince and princess, arrive and either fight them off or help Link?

As far as timing for this event, I feel like RIGHT after the temple isn't good, it's so sudden, and gives a very small opportunity to save. What if Link defeats the temple, and on his way out of the area and back to Hyrule Town, he meets the leftover Zola who want revenge?
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on June 13, 2013, 05:38:01 pm
We could do that too.  Just have the Zoras show up and open up a can of whoop-ass on the last remaining Zolas.  Not the player though, just the Zoras :P
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on June 14, 2013, 11:23:23 pm
I think it'd be more of a satisfying conclusion this way. Especially if use it to conclude a character transformation for the Zora. Perhaps they aren't confidant, nervous about being overrun by the Zola, but at the end, after seeing Link's bravery in saving them, they are inspired to change.
So, before Link goes and saves the Zora royalty, we could have NPCs talk some things about "I don't know how strong the Zora prince and princess will be when they grow up", or "King Zora's been afraid of the Zola, it hasn't given the kids a good example", things like that. And obviously the prince and princess would be terrified while Link's saving them.

So Link could be about to re-enter Hyrule field when he's attacked, then the Zora prince and princess could show up and defeat the Zola. Afterwards, perhaps one of them gives Link an item signifying his relationship with the Zora royal family, so Zora in other places would treat Link differently. Maybe in Hyrule Town they're be a Zora who'd allow Link to get into the sewers, or that Zora guru who teaches Link a sword technique (can't remember the NPC's name...) wouldn't respect Link enough to teach him until Link has the Zora seal.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on June 15, 2013, 04:40:26 am
You know, I'm liking this idea, especially the end part with the item!  I assume the character you're referring to is Zeere, the Zen Zora?
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on June 15, 2013, 06:47:23 pm
Yup, that was him. Which technique should he teach? I'll look at all the techniques maybe tomorrow and think about it, as well as summarize this chapter of the game, so we can look over it as a whole, then move on to the Gorons.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on June 16, 2013, 03:56:59 am
I think the submission says the Persuit Slash once the shadow cloak is acquired.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on June 16, 2013, 05:25:06 pm
Yeah, well I was thinking if we are gonna have this Zora item unlock his teaching, maybe he should teach something immediately learnable once you unlock his teaching. What I mean is, you get the Zora's Approval, you can talk to this guy and he will finally respect you to teach you and he says... I can't teach you until you have the shadow cloak..."

Seems like a letdown.

So what I was thinking was maybe he could teach the roll attack or sword beam instead. So that way, if the Zora item unlocks his teaching, then you can immediately take advantage of it. Feels like a slightly better flow to me, what do you think?
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on June 19, 2013, 04:36:28 am
The idea I had behind the shadow cloak was kind of like the knight's crests in WW.  You never actually know that the move exists until you speak to him after getting the cloak.  Prior to that, his challenge unlocks a piece of heart.  There really is no letdown because you just don't know about it.  But this isn't too relevant to the story, this is more for gameplay tuning.
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Max. on June 25, 2013, 10:19:34 pm
Alright, sounds good. Shall we summarize and move on?

Heading back to Hyrule Town after finishing up in the Deku Swamp, Link goes to meet with the Gerudo King, who tells Link he's discovered that the rest of the cogs are with the Zora, Gorons, and the king says that the final one is kept by the Hylian royal family (I think Niek must have had a reason for saying Royal Family instead of Shiekah, I guess we can change this part if it turns out to make no sense, because I don't know where Niek was going with that and haven't heard from him in a while.)

Link, after the Zora and Goron cogs, heads out of the castle, but is caught by guards on the way out. Before he is thrown in the dungeon, however, Zelda happens by and recognizes him. She has Link sent out of the castle instead of imprisoned, but guards now block the path Link has been using the get into the castle/visit Ganon.

On his way out of the town, Link happens across a Deku merchant, whose goods were stolen by a band of traveling Zola. In the field, Link finds the Zola and fights them. He loses, but the Zola abandon the fight and goods when they hear that "hostages have been taken."

Returning the deku merchant's goods, he will lower the price of his flippers, allowing Link to buy them and access the river valley of the Zora. In the Zora's town, Link finds the everyone panicked, as their leaders have been kidnapped by the Zola and taken to forts along the river.

Either sneaking or battling his way into the forts, Link rescues the prince, princess, and King Zora. The Zola flee their forts after their defeat, opening the path into Lake Hylia.

At Lake Hylia, Link meets a man named Sheldon, who is studying the ancient mechanisms that dot the lake shore. Upon investigating one, Link is attacked by Maple, taking a more active role now in deterring Link. She is bested and flies off, but during the fight the mechanism was broken.

Sheldon sets about repairing it, while Link goes to find the rest. He activates each one, and returning to Sheldon, they activate the last one, which raises the entrance of the ancient lakebed temple. Link approaches it, and overhears Maple talking with the Hero's shade. She goes into the temple, and the shade speaks to Link, warning him to avoid tampering with things he doesn't understand or he could bring the lives of everyone in Hyrule to an end.

Regardless of the hero's warning, Link enters the temple, claiming the water cog and advancing his quest.

On his way out of the river valley, Link is attacked by the remnant of the Zola, wanting revenge for their defeat. However, before Link can fight, the prince and princess of the Zora arrive and defeat the Zola. They share with Link that his courage inspired them to become stronger and take action to decide the course of their lives. They give him the Zora seal or whatever, an object signifying the friendship of the Zora people. This item will evoke different reactions from Zora characters Link meets now.

Link heads back toward Hyrule town...
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on June 26, 2013, 12:09:18 am
I think what Niek and I decided was that Ganon thought the Royal Family held the last cog, but later finds out that the Shiekah have it.  I think the plan was to have Ganon somehow communicate to Link after getting the Goron Cog that the Shiekah have the next cog, and then Link would continue straight onto Death Valley without returning to Hyrule Town.

That aside, this finalizes the Zora arc and we can carry on!
Title: Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on July 25, 2013, 08:42:02 pm
Just a quick reply, about what my idea was when mentioning that Ganon would give the Zora and Cog locations together. Ganon does not know that the Sheikah have the last cog although they might suspect it.

Link would get this knowledge from a Sheikah elder "Seare", who is almost driven insane by the visions of doom and has a more grand realisation that the events of evil are already set in motion and it is better to control the flow that to turn it around. Thus he goes rogue against the council of elders.

Or a somewhat less idea is that the ancient hero tells Link the location. As he is now more dependent on Link, with 3 cogs already in his posesion.

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