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Author Topic: Mapping the Overworld  (Read 19850 times)

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Mapping the Overworld
« on: April 07, 2009, 07:11:15 pm »
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OK, it seems as the staff has given green light to the community for creating the MC styled Link's Awakening. At least for the resources part. If I'm correct a select few people are still working on the engine part.

So I would like to start this off (if I'm allowed) with this topic about creating the overworld of Koholinth in Minish Cap style. Now there are a few things that have to be put straight. Guidelines as to speak for making the maps. The following questions I would like to have answered? Some may sound trivial.

  • The size of the tiles are 16x16?
  • The separate maps will have the size off 320x256 or different dimensions?
  • For the objects in the world like trees, do we stay true to the sizes from MC (like in Jeod's Koholinth LttP style) or do we resize them to fit LA's dimensions (Like Xfixium's Koholinth)?
  • Which resources do we use? VGMaps, Spriters Resource or others?
  • Where do we start? Mabe Village, Toronbo Beach, Koholinth Castle or somewhere else?
  • What program do we use to create the maps?
  • What file format does the map need to be in?
  • Am I forgetting something?

I'll update this first post once the guidelines are set. Or the staff will if they make the guidelines for us in order to be compatible with the engine.

Let the bombardment of replies begin.

UPDATE: Please don't start mapping just yet, some major issues still have to be resolved.

  • The main tile size is 16x16 pixels. For some decorative purposes tiles of 8x8 pixels are also allowed.
  • We stay true to the size of the tiles and objects from MC. Objects won't be shrunk to match similar objects from LA.
  • Making custom tiles are allowed, but offer a small sheet of the custom tiles along to the new part of the map, in order for the custom tiles to be put with the resources.
  • We start mapping from Mabe Village and continue following the story.
  • Name the parts of the map according to the area in the Game and the grid coordinates. For example the top left most area of Toronbo Beach, just below Mabe Village Library, is Toronbo_Beach_1-1. And the part to the right of that Toronbo_Beach_1-2. Some areas may have some special building which can be taken in the naming like, Toronbo_Beach_2-4_Tail_Cave
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 08:40:44 am by Niek »
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Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2009, 10:40:38 pm »
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I think a base tileset needs to be created first, that can be updated by one person.
Keeping true to the original size would proably be better.
Not sure what we're using to make the maps with.
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Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2009, 11:06:26 pm »
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About keeping it based on the original size, to me that seems limiting. The size of the original game was such because of the limits of the hardware it ran on. Since this game is going to be a recreation of Link's Awakening, the places of the buildings are going to be the same, that is a given, but to not give any leeway to the building sizes of the Minish Cap would make the Minish Cap style look shrunken. Another thing in Link's Awakening, there are sectors on which you can be on the screen. The Minish Cap doesn't do it that way on the GBA. Certainly in terms of recreation there can be graphical liberties taken.

As for resources to use, VGMaps has watermarks over some of there maps and the enemies on the Spriter's Resource sometimes contain problems making them hard for developers to use. I was thinking that we could handle getting the resources ourselves from the source. This is not just going to be a "get resources and dump them to a spot" project.

As for where to start, chances are it will be from the beginning of the game. Not only is this easier in that there are no complicated enemies to worry about right away, but it is the first place in the game.
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Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2009, 11:07:55 pm »
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Yes, base tileset is needed. VGmaps is an exellent source for tiles to make tilesets from, but TSR may already have a few sets. Naturally, the map should probably start in Mabe and work around until all of the map the player can cover before the first dungeon is completed. Leaves room for early testing. Xfixium already has Tail Cave complete, but I'm not sure if the map is extractable. MC tiles are 16x16, so each quadrant is 320x256. Pretty much all of the sprites are complete, so until the mapping is started, I would request permission to make a sprite list. (Sprites meaning items, characters, other things that don't classify as "tiles")
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Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2009, 11:07:57 pm »
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BEHOLD! I don't think it will cover everything, but I did collect many things over the years. It hasn't been updated with newer things either like Miles' item sheet. Last time anything was added to it may have been...idk, December?

EDIT: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mmwt22ujydj

(Forgot the link)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 11:17:40 pm by Jeod »
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Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2009, 06:36:24 am »
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Jeod, nice resources. I saw that it also contained custom made sprites and tiles of other games. Although I didn't saw any for LA. It also contains some Four Swords Maps.

Making the resources ourself will be a lot of work. Someone will have to rip them. I don't know how you do it.

Oh yeah I updated the first post with 2 more questions. Sorry!
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Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2009, 02:57:10 pm »
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Jeod, nice resources. I saw that it also contained custom made sprites and tiles of other games. Although I didn't saw any for LA. It also contains some Four Swords Maps.

Making the resources ourself will be a lot of work. Someone will have to rip them. I don't know how you do it.

Oh yeah I updated the first post with 2 more questions. Sorry!

Naturally, they would be ripped using the VBA Ripper.
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Miles07

Knight of ERA
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2009, 07:15:20 am »
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BEHOLD! I don't think it will cover everything, but I did collect many things over the years. It hasn't been updated with newer things either like Miles' item sheet. Last time anything was added to it may have been...idk, December?

EDIT: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mmwt22ujydj

(Forgot the link)

*faceslap*
Ya even got the poorly-made sprite sheets. Congrats. Still, you managed to save Rogultgot's MC Link sprite sheet, of which I have been DYING to find once again since it got lost somehow, somewhere, on the internets. Thanks, Jeod, simply for that sprite sheet!
And for that green Ring item. That's useful too, even if it is a recolor. 

BTW, whoever ripped the FS "maps" deserves to be smacked. HARD. No joke about it.
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I was talking to my friend last night, and he was mentioning about how in 1980, he thought the internet would become this amazing place where people from across the world would share ideas. I was telling him about how this project [KOT] has worked, lurching along for years and drawn by different people from across the globe, and he thought it was beautiful. And he was right, it's awesome. :D

Zelda Items Spritesheet album (OUT OF DATE) - (link here)
A Link Across Time project - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Metroid) - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Zelda) - (link here)
Boss Keys project Trello Board - (link here)
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2009, 01:18:08 pm »
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BEHOLD! I don't think it will cover everything, but I did collect many things over the years. It hasn't been updated with newer things either like Miles' item sheet. Last time anything was added to it may have been...idk, December?

EDIT: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?mmwt22ujydj

(Forgot the link)

*faceslap*
Ya even got the poorly-made sprite sheets. Congrats. Still, you managed to save Rogultgot's MC Link sprite sheet, of which I have been DYING to find once again since it got lost somehow, somewhere, on the internets. Thanks, Jeod, simply for that sprite sheet!
And for that green Ring item. That's useful too, even if it is a recolor. 

BTW, whoever ripped the FS "maps" deserves to be smacked. HARD. No joke about it.
Actually, some of that stuff could be quite useful to me.
Agree with smacking the FS map ripper though. They look pretty off colour, talus cave especially yucky yucky.
BTW I've had that link sheet for ages, apart from allignment issues it's really nice.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 01:20:42 pm by Darklight »
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Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2009, 05:50:06 pm »
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Quote
* The size of the tiles are 16x16?
I would assume thats the most logical choice. All the MC tiles are currently in that format. Might be handy to have some 8x8 tiles for smaller details. And some brushs for larger tile objects.

Quote
* The separate maps will have the size off 320x256 or different dimensions?
You will need to adjust the size based on the scale of the tileset your using. For example if an LA tree takes up 4 tiles, and a MC tree takes up 6 or so, you will need to scale it 50%.

Quote
    * For the objects in the world like trees, do we stay true to the sizes from MC (like in Jeod's Koholinth LttP style) or do we resize them to fit LA's dimensions (Like Xfixium's Koholinth)?
If your using MC tiles, keep the dimensions the same as in MC, otherwise your proportions will be pretty out-of-wack when tiles and objects are compared.

Quote
    * Which resources do we use? VGMaps, Spriters Resource or others?
I'm sure you can find resources from eveywhere. A lot of members probably have some.

Quote
    * Where do we start? Mabe Village, Toronbo Beach, Koholinth Castle or somewhere else?
My suggestion is to start from where you start in game "Mabe Village" and progres outwards. You can get the maps in a game quicker that way.

Quote
    * What program do we use to create the maps?
I could create a simple map editor if you wish. Its not a hard task.
 
Quote
   * What file format does the map need to be in?
If your intending on importing them into GML, its probably easiest to have each layer of the map rendered as a seperate image. Although it might be an idea to write an importer for whatever binary format the maps will be stored in during development, though that would probably be harder for you.

Quote
    * Am I forgetting something?
There is no spoon.

On another note guys, if your going to be using the same basic techniques and swap&replace's in the maps, you might look into writing an automated covertor, which looks at an LA map and converts it into what it thinks is a good representation of it, then have human tilers go over it and make corrections. I did something similar to this with LA-COOP.
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Miles07

Knight of ERA
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2009, 06:12:45 pm »
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Quote
* The size of the tiles are 16x16?
I would assume thats the most logical choice. All the MC tiles are currently in that format. Might be handy to have some 8x8 tiles for smaller details. And some brushs for larger tile objects.

Quote
* The separate maps will have the size off 320x256 or different dimensions?
You will need to adjust the size based on the scale of the tileset your using. For example if an LA tree takes up 4 tiles, and a MC tree takes up 6 or so, you will need to scale it 50%.

Quote
    * For the objects in the world like trees, do we stay true to the sizes from MC (like in Jeod's Koholinth LttP style) or do we resize them to fit LA's dimensions (Like Xfixium's Koholinth)?
If your using MC tiles, keep the dimensions the same as in MC, otherwise your proportions will be pretty out-of-wack when tiles and objects are compared.
I will agree with all of the above. However, is this project going to be a simple "revamp" or a full-fledged "remake"? If it's a "remake", can't we add something new to the game? Like Metroid Zero Mission, compared to the original Metroid?

Quote
    * Which resources do we use? VGMaps, Spriters Resource or others?
I'm sure you can find resources from eveywhere. A lot of members probably have some.
You can use the tilesets that Jeod posted earlier in the topic... The only problem is that they're BMPs, which is bad for computer memory.

Quote
    * Where do we start? Mabe Village, Toronbo Beach, Koholinth Castle or somewhere else?
My suggestion is to start from where you start in game "Mabe Village" and progres outwards. You can get the maps in a game quicker that way.
Excellent idea. Plus, it helps when making the demos so that we just use what we already have for it. And isn't it a good idea to start a demo of this game from the very beginning?

Quote
    * What program do we use to create the maps?
I could create a simple map editor if you wish. Its not a hard task.
 
Quote
   * What file format does the map need to be in?
If your intending on importing them into GML, its probably easiest to have each layer of the map rendered as a seperate image. Although it might be an idea to write an importer for whatever binary format the maps will be stored in during development, though that would probably be harder for you.
I'm thinking having each "room" be a simple image. Just eliminate anything that can be interacted with (rocks, bushes, people), multilayer objects (building roofs, treetops), animated terrain (water, lights, windy grass) and doorways (cave entrances, house doors, etc). That way, you don't change what happens to the background, but can then easily manipulate (using code or whatever) the things that can change over the course of the game.

Quote
    * Am I forgetting something?
There is no spoon.
If there is no spoon, then WTF am I holding?I

On another note guys, if your going to be using the same basic techniques and swap&replace's in the maps, you might look into writing an automated covertor, which looks at an LA map and converts it into what it thinks is a good representation of it, then have human tilers go over it and make corrections. I did something similar to this with LA-COOP.
Hmm. This looks promising. Go for it.
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I was talking to my friend last night, and he was mentioning about how in 1980, he thought the internet would become this amazing place where people from across the world would share ideas. I was telling him about how this project [KOT] has worked, lurching along for years and drawn by different people from across the globe, and he thought it was beautiful. And he was right, it's awesome. :D

Zelda Items Spritesheet album (OUT OF DATE) - (link here)
A Link Across Time project - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Metroid) - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Zelda) - (link here)
Boss Keys project Trello Board - (link here)

Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2009, 12:03:47 am »
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Ok so we have a few pieces from my collection, and some from other sources. Shall we sort out what to use and what not to use so we can start this !@#$%? Miles, you seem to know a lot about coloring, so why don't you pick out the good sets from my collection to use? I assume PNG is the format we're using? As for the maps themselves, we would be doing background and foreground, correct? (Foreground being the tops of trees, etc)

In the meantime, I think I'll work on finding some more sources. TSR isn't too bad, but the tilesets are off in terms of color.

Marin Sheet
More Sprites (Most are LttP though)
Shyguy Kingdom Sheets
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 12:09:06 am by Jeod »
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Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2009, 12:22:34 am »
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This is not just going to be a "get resources and dump them to a spot" project.

I stress this again, making the resource process an online easter egg hunt for things which were put together for the sake of convenience individually and then grouping them together introduces problems. While it is "good" to plan ahead, it is not good to look for everything all at once and lose sight of the fact that the beginning area does not contain that everything.
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Jeod

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Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2009, 12:35:21 am »
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I know that. I just want to know what tileset I'm supposed to be using.
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Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2009, 10:06:48 am »
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Quote
* The separate maps will have the size off 320x256 or different dimensions?
You will need to adjust the size based on the scale of the tileset your using. For example if an LA tree takes up 4 tiles, and a MC tree takes up 6 or so, you will need to scale it 50%.
Personally I think the buildings and the trees will give the biggest problems. If you're gonna adapt to the dimensions of the sections to this, you need to do it for every part of the map, which might give a bit of a stretched look in the result.

I think keeping to 320x256 pixels is the best and allow the creators some creative licensing with the maps to put in the various objects. Although there probably needs to one person who will put the various parts together and see that the objects at the edges align.


Quote
    * Which resources do we use? VGMaps, Spriters Resource or others?
I'm sure you can find resources from eveywhere. A lot of members probably have some.
Agreed, but we do need one set of resources to use to avoid graphical issues. And it has to be easy for anyone to get. 4Sword says that we have to create our own resources and that ZFGC shouldn't become a dump for resources archived somewhere else. The creators of those resources probably wouldn't like it either. But I can also see the dilemma, that creating those resources will take much work and the most are already available somewhere else. People might not like ripping resource that are much easier available somewhere else.

Quote
    * What program do we use to create the maps?
I could create a simple map editor if you wish. Its not a hard task.
Personally, I don't care much what we use. As long as it easy to use to put different tiles together and that parts of object tiles, like trees need to be transparant. It would also be nice if it were easy to create custom tiles when needed.
 
Quote
   * What file format does the map need to be in?
If your intending on importing them into GML, its probably easiest to have each layer of the map rendered as a seperate image. Although it might be an idea to write an importer for whatever binary format the maps will be stored in during development, though that would probably be harder for you.
I have to agree with Miles07, but instead of eliminating the interactive objects, we put in the the smallest version of the interaction, like the destroyed versions of the plants and grass and opened doorways.

On another note guys, if your going to be using the same basic techniques and swap&replace's in the maps, you might look into writing an automated covertor, which looks at an LA map and converts it into what it thinks is a good representation of it, then have human tilers go over it and make corrections. I did something similar to this with LA-COOP.
That is definitely a possibility, but I think it won't be as much fun as putting them together.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, from the replies above I can set these guidelines already:

  • The main tile size is 16x16 pixels. For some decorative purposes tiles of 8x8 pixels are also allowed.
  • We stay true to the size of the tiles and objects from MC. Objects won't be shrunk to match similar objects from LA.
  • Making custom tiles are allowed, but offer a small sheet of the custom tiles along to the new part of the map, in order for the custom tiles to be put with the resources.
  • We start mapping from Mabe Village and continue following the story.
  • Name the parts of the map according to the area in the Game and the grid coordinates. For example the top left most area of Toronbo Beach, just below Mabe Village Library, is Toronbo_Beach_1-1. And the part to the right of that Toronbo_Beach_1-2. Some areas may have some special building which can be taken in the naming like, Toronbo_Beach_2-4_Tail_Cave

These are the guidelines that don't seem to need a discussion anymore. If everyone agrees with them I put them in the first post. Oh yeah, I put in some additional guidelines, to naming conventions and using/offering custom made tiles. 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 10:45:15 am by Niek »
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Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2009, 04:01:51 pm »
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Another issue with using many of the tilesets out there is that they oversimplify layering. For example, trees, houses, certain bridges, etc. from their sheets would be of no use. I am fine with people using those resources to make mockups of areas, but understand that they cannot be put directly into the game as it develops. Because specific things will need to be ripped due to the failure of previous sheets, the "convenience" offered by the other sheets is really not convenient.

If those making maps do not care about how the resources will be made in game, then that is just bad. Making developers do additional work while mappers would move on to additional areas is also not good.
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Miles07

Knight of ERA
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2009, 07:21:23 pm »
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I have to agree with Miles07, but instead of eliminating the interactive objects, we put in the the smallest version of the interaction, like the destroyed versions of the plants and grass and opened doorways.

Exactly what I was thinking. Thanks, Niek.

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I was talking to my friend last night, and he was mentioning about how in 1980, he thought the internet would become this amazing place where people from across the world would share ideas. I was telling him about how this project [KOT] has worked, lurching along for years and drawn by different people from across the globe, and he thought it was beautiful. And he was right, it's awesome. :D

Zelda Items Spritesheet album (OUT OF DATE) - (link here)
A Link Across Time project - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Metroid) - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Zelda) - (link here)
Boss Keys project Trello Board - (link here)

Ryuza

That one guy
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2009, 07:28:51 pm »
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So, you guys want any help? Heres my MC mabe village:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5766/mabevillagemc.png
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<- Koholint Island - MC Style  <- Link's Awakening Photo Recolors  <- Wind Waker 3D Resources <- Super Mario Bros Crossover
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Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2009, 08:22:03 pm »
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Dang, Ryu...IMO, that's really good! But that's jus me. Is it useable, 4Sword?
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"You should challenge your fates. When all else fails, you can still die fighting." ~Yune
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Re: Mapping the Overworld
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2009, 08:59:57 pm »
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A lot of the features on it look nice; I like the fact that deviations were taken so that parts didn't seem too square, but I am unsure of whether or not parts of it seem too wide or too big, if that makes sense. As for the question of usability, the buildings, trees, and possibly the hills would have to be re-ripped for the area's master tile sheet - in addition, the objects on the map would have to be removed (bushes, doors, signs, rocks, twig roots, etc.)
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