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Projects => Discussion => Topic started by: Miles07 on May 17, 2015, 04:17:50 am

Title: Timeline Discussion
Post by: Miles07 on May 17, 2015, 04:17:50 am
Ref: http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=41323.msg449170 (http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=41323.msg449170)

So basically, this is a topic whereupon we can discuss the Zelda Timeline in all its glory (such as it is). (For those of you out there groaning about this, move along. Nothing compels you to be a part in this discussion anyway.) We can talk about possibilities in the timeline - official and otherwise - in an effort to inspire anyone who is reading this to think of a logical placement of their fangame / fanon / fanfic idea into the timeline. It might even be helpful to current projects in placing these games into an established timeline instead of just copping out with "an alternative reality". My hope is that this can someday build into a linking together ( ;) ) of projects and create an epic tale of multiple chapters, using projects on this site and more!

So, before we begin, a few rules:
More general rules may be applied, as edited by myself or admins/moderators, or suggested by anyone.
Title: Timeline Discussion : Glossary of Terms
Post by: Miles07 on May 17, 2015, 04:18:36 am
Glossary of acronyms used in this topic
Not sure what "EoC" means, or unsure what is meant by "canon"? No worries! Here's a list of acronyms and terms used in this topic, subject to updates! Feel free to post your own acronyms, too, to include new events or ideas referred to as the timeline discussion develops.

Game acronyms:
Terms and other acronyms:
Title: Timeline Discussion : References
Post by: Miles07 on May 17, 2015, 04:19:13 am
References / further reading:
http://www.zeldawiki.org/Canonical_Analysis_and_Game_Grouping (http://www.zeldawiki.org/Canonical_Analysis_and_Game_Grouping)
http://zeldauniverse.net/forums/index.php/Thread/119887-Theorizing-Resources/ (http://zeldauniverse.net/forums/index.php/Thread/119887-Theorizing-Resources/)

More links (hehe!) as they come.
Title: Timeline Discussion : Rules of Time Travel
Post by: Miles07 on May 17, 2015, 04:20:55 am
Time travel rules:
Note: These rules are subject to change and reinterpretation, just like the laws of any government. Amendments will be displayed as such.
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion : Rules of Time Travel
Post by: Miles07 on May 17, 2015, 04:21:27 am
Rules to be discussed before they can be accepted:

(Off question: is the Triforce allowed to travel through time? (http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=41335.msg449204#msg449204))
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion : References
Post by: Miles07 on May 17, 2015, 04:22:07 am
Official Timeline:
Just for reference, here's an image:
(http://i.imgur.com/JbXao.jpg)
Obviously, this is a straight copy of the Hyrule Historia timeline, simplified for usage here.
The proposed inclusions of ALBW and ALBW BS has caused some discussions of discrepancies in the BSs, creating heated debate after heated debate. Even so, other mismatches have caused plenty of head-scratching and confusion (It's super effective!!), prompting theorists to outright reject this timeline as valid, despite its "official" status. I, too, have several bones to pick with this sequence of events.
Title: Timeline Discussion : General
Post by: Miles07 on May 20, 2015, 01:01:18 pm
(http://i502.photobucket.com/albums/e429/ChaosMiles07/timelineArcs_zpsd1sny3tp.png)

In the image above, the games and eras of the Zelda series released to date are grouped by "sagas" or related themes, along with the potential BSs tied to the games. They are grouped as follows:
There are also included some outliers, whose direct placement cannot be easily rectified: OoX. OoX has some references to OoT and MM characters, but also items and circumstances from LA (due to the similar gameplay engines, items, etc.).
ALBW, for reasons easily found on the internet, is also an outlier because of the BS: Ganon broke into the Sacred Realm and got the entire Triforce, THE FIRST TIME. Then Seven Sages AND the Princess of Hyrule AND the Hero of the era manage to fight against Ganon, take back the Triforce, and seal the Evil King away "into darkness". This is obviously not congruent with any other game yet released in the series.
And now, with the inclusion of Tetra and the King of Red Lions in Hyrule Warriors Legends, it is unsure where HW will actually be placed.
We also have the (as of yet) unreleased games of TFH and the still untitled Zelda Wii U.

On the subject of inconsistencies, how about that line from Dangoro in the Goron Mines in TP regarding the Hero's Bow? It used to belong to the hero of the Gorons... but who was it? The Hero of Time 1) found the Fairy Bow in the Forest Temple as an adult, therefore taking place in the Adult Timeline, and 2) was not remembered as a "hero" in his lifetime (c.f. the Hero's Shade). So... why is this line here?
The more useful solution, to me at least, is another break in the timeline, somewhere, somehow. Listing off the time-travel games in the series, we can see where discussion and justifiable timelines can be injected.
Title: Timeline Discussion : Ocarina of Time
Post by: Miles07 on May 20, 2015, 01:07:57 pm
Ocarina of Time timeline discussion

(http://i502.photobucket.com/albums/e429/ChaosMiles07/OoT_zpsh2su7rra.png)

Listed are the major chapters and sequence of events, chronologically, throughout the game in "canon" order. That is, this is the order that Nintendo recommends the game be played, even though there is a bit of possibility to deviate and go through some of the Adult-era Temples in different order. More on that later.
Added onto this panel, in colors, are other points that I feel should be discussed and answered, based on two questions:
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion : Ocarina of Time
Post by: Miles07 on May 20, 2015, 01:10:11 pm
Question 1: At the end of the game, to what point in the past does Zelda return Link?

This is a question that has no clear answer, but there are three distinct possibilities outlined in orange, blue, and red on the chart.
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion : Ocarina of Time
Post by: Miles07 on May 20, 2015, 01:15:13 pm
There is one other sub-question to be asked, a "what-if?" question that might have earth-shattering implications:

Question 1-1: When does Ganondorf enter the Sacred Realm?

The three above possibilities (Orange, Blue, Red) would be valid solutions depending on the assumption that Adult Zelda was wise enough (and we hope so, being the bearer of the Triforce of Wisdom!) to send Link back to a point before Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm. But what if she didn't? I mean, even though she bore the Triforce of Wisdom, she made several mistakes, such as revealing her identity to Link, letting herself be caught, putting together a plan that let Ganondorf enter the Sacred Realm (as the Joker says:
Quote
It's all "part of the plan".
), etc.
We don't know exactly when Ganondorf passes by the hero-in-stasis and enters the portal to the Golden Land. It could have been one minute after Link opened the Door of Time; it could have been one hour, one day, or even a year! (I might interject that he could also easily enter while Link keeps the Door of Time open while questing to Kakariko Well or the Spirit Temple...) The point is, that this opens up the possibility that Zelda sends Link back in time, and he arrives... after Ganondorf already entered the Sacred Realm. The Door of Time is sealed shut while the Gerudo King is still ON HIS WAY to the Triforce chamber, and the access to the Golden Land is closed... Ganondorf is effectively stuck inside the Sacred Realm with the Triforce, but no way of getting out.

No. No way of getting out.
Is that hard to understand? He can't leave the Sacred Realm if the door is shut! Oh, you want me so prove he couldn't? Well then, I invite you to play a completed game of ALttP. Travel throughout the entire Dark World, and see if you can find a way to make it to the Light World without using items. I'll wait here...

...

...You done yet? Did you find any place that lets you travel from Dark World to the Light World? No? Only through the use of the Magic Mirror?
Hmm. Guess what Ganondorf didn't have in his possession?
You could say that now he's... SEALED in the Dark World!
Indeed, Ganondorf might have received the Triforce in full, but being trapped in the Dark World, he could only his influence to spread his evil in the Light World, remotely. Indeed, the BS for ALttP (the SNES manual version) distinctly depicts this circumstance, allowing me to just flat-out say that this newer possibility - represented by purple and by the ALttP depiction of Ganon in the chart above - leads to the 'Imprisoning Saga' and the ImW.
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion : Ocarina of Time
Post by: Miles07 on May 20, 2015, 01:17:38 pm
Question 2: Does time-traveling count as a 'major change' - according to Rule #1 (http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=41335.msg449173#msg449173) - during the Shadow and Spirit Temple quests?

While I am of the opinion that these changes are actually minor, I am more than willing to entertain the possibility of alternate branches. We can say that variant branches can occur before the Shadow Temple is completed (depicted in black) and the Spirit Temple (in pink), but what they would consist of would be the following:
No matter which of these two possibilities occur, Link abandons the two branches, leaving Hyrule to fend for itself, and Ganondorf remains very much in charge, largely unopposed, though he can no longer nab the Triforce of Courage, as Link took it into the past with him.
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion : Ocarina of Time
Post by: Miles07 on May 20, 2015, 01:26:24 pm
Speaking of the Triforce, another question to be asked is:

What happens with the Triforce of Courage?

...I honestly don't know. I would assume that, in the Child Timeline, Link still bears it, and passes on its essence to Link of Ordon (TP), who is blessed by the Goddesses into transforming into the 'sacred beast' instead of succumbing to the Twilight.
In the Adult Timeline, however, there is no Triforce of Courage. I wonder then if Zelda took the Triforce of Courage from Link as he traveled back in time, and the Princess was the one to shatter the Triforce and hide it across the land of Hyrule (similarly to the plot of LoZ) before the return of Ganondorf.
Basically, the question has to be asked, whether the Triforce CAN travel through time, or if it remains in 'hammerspace' until its bearer returns to the era. If the Triforce CAN travel through time, that would explain SS's ending, but not OoT's. If the Triforce CAN'T travel through time, then OoT can be salvaged by throwing SS under the bus. A solution must be brought forth, before this question can be resolved.
I honestly have no further ideas to offer on this subject.
Title: Timeline Discussion : Skyward Sword
Post by: Miles07 on May 20, 2015, 01:35:48 pm
Skyward Sword timeline discussion

(http://i502.photobucket.com/albums/e429/ChaosMiles07/SS_zpsogatkrnt.png)

Depicted is a flow of events, chronologically speaking, of simplified events in, around, and alluded to in Skyward Sword. There are three major lines or branches that occur as a result of time travel, coded by color for easy reference.
Distinctions of the Blue Line and unresolved quirks:
Distinctions of the Red Line and unresolved quirks:
Distinctions of the Green Line and unresolved quirks:
It's easy to see with these outlined points that SS provides at least three branches that Nintendo could have the possibility of building upon.
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion
Post by: MG-Zero on May 21, 2015, 03:33:32 pm
goddamn man, you really went to town on this!
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion
Post by: Miles07 on May 21, 2015, 11:18:02 pm
MG-Zero, when it comes to a timeline as intricate and long and involved as Zelda's, ya can't half-*** anything about it.

... you really went to town on this!
And, you know, Link, he come to town... ♪
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion
Post by: Miles07 on June 17, 2015, 02:23:01 pm
Updated some posts based on the newly-revealed TFH and HWL.
I'm also noticing that nobody is adding to the discussion besides me. I'd hate to monologue here.
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion
Post by: Miles07 on June 29, 2015, 04:48:12 pm
Updated some images, and by extension some posts. Why is nobody else responding?!
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion
Post by: Starforsaken101 on June 29, 2015, 04:56:29 pm
Wow, I had no idea the timeline of Zelda was so detailed.
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion
Post by: Mariotag on March 08, 2017, 01:07:35 am
Hmm. One thing I've largely been curious about regarding the timeline is the impact of AoL.
It's stated that Ganon will return if Link's blood is sprinkled on his ashes.

What I'm wondering about is, would even a little blood do? Or perhaps the forces of darkness could take Link out when he gets old?
Either way, would this not mean that Ganon could be revived at any time?
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion
Post by: Miles07 on March 12, 2017, 09:10:50 pm
Hmm. One thing I've largely been curious about regarding the timeline is the impact of AoL.
It's stated that Ganon will return if Link's blood is sprinkled on his ashes.

What I'm wondering about is, would even a little blood do? Or perhaps the forces of darkness could take Link out when he gets old?
Either way, would this not mean that Ganon could be revived at any time?

Hmm... I spent some time thinking about this possibility...
What if... this was the reason of the backstory for Wind Waker? The Hero never returns when Hyrule is once again in danger... because he died to Ganondorf's followers? And they revived the King of Evil..?
Title: Re: Timeline Discussion
Post by: Mariotag on March 14, 2017, 12:51:09 am
That would make sense! I do wonder if it applies only to Ganon, or if it applies to him as Ganondorf as well.

Way back, when I tried to figure out the timeline for myself, I based it off that, as well as what was probably a misinterpretation from OoT's ending. I'd thought Ganondorf was banished to a void outside of time. :/

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