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Author Topic: Hit the reset button?  (Read 8748 times)

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Hit the reset button?
« on: November 21, 2010, 07:21:24 am »
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Something I have been thinking about for some time.  I want to be open minded as possible about this and would love input from all different points of view.

I think it's time to hit the reset button on ZFGC.
Blow it all up.  Staff and some veteran users(even those who moved on) could communicate about the last few years.  Discussion could include:
~ what worked in the forums
~ what brought traffic
~ what brought new members
~ what keeps members
So on and so forth...

Now the next part may be hard to swallow-
I think that ZFGC, if it should be restarted, should not limit itself to the zelda community.  How much about Zelda do we even talk about anymore?  The Zelda fan game online community seems to be nowhere near what it was 5 years ago.  ZFGN seems to have disappeared.  Zeldapower has had the same damn fangames for the last 9 years.  Most !@#$% I find online is ZC quests.
I think it has something with this generation not really playing Zelda the way most of us have.  It seems that alot of us started with Zelda either with the original or sometime before OoT.  Most people I talk to in real life never played Zelda because it goes over their heads.  Not being sarcastic.  Zelda is too much of a game for people. 
Anyway, went off on a tangent there...
It seems alot of us that have stayed around would rather make games based on other IPs or start our own game, than make Zelda games.  I know GameMaker is still heavily used(I still use it a bit), alot of us also have showed interest or even completely moved on to actual languages instead of RAD.

Maybe it's just me but ZFGC seems to have just been !@#$% the last couple years.  Not raggin on staff nor on members, just as a whole.
Quality just doesn't seem to be there.  the spark seems to be gone as well.

I would love to see our community start a new site someday dedicated to more of a game programming site with sections on each language that are contributed to by our members.  Just for example sake:

Programming
Java
SDL
OpenGL
DirectX
XNA
C/C++
C#
Delphi
etc

Other sections would be graphics, then sound, and so on.
Not saying it would be limited to that.

I don't know if you guys know what I am trying to say.  I am tired as hell so it probably looks like gibberish.

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  • Super Fan Gamers!
Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2010, 08:11:03 am »
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I spaced out here and there while reading this. Not another one? Hitting the reset button is a surefire way to lose members just hoping to replace them. It adresses no issues in itself whatsoever. I'm not saying some of your arguments and ideals are not valid, but a reset is no more then wishfull thinking. Just make suggestions to improve the current site (zfgc -> (z)fgc) or build a secondary site yourself.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 08:15:37 am by Martijn dh »
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Mamoruanime

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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2010, 08:19:13 am »
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Resetting the forum doesn't fix the issues :P I don't think there's really a way to *fix* the forum. You can swap out the staff and the users all you want, but it'll stay the same.

You'd be better off having a new forum entirely.
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2010, 09:15:35 am »
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I'm sorry to say this, because that will not solve anything. It does not address the underlying problem nor does it present a solution for the underlying problem. I also think that you don't see what the real problem is here. The problem is not that people have lost interest in developing fangames. But the problem is that it is damn near impossible to actually finish a fangame. Because Zelda Classic is basically the only tool that makes it possible to create a complete fangame. Or you could write it yourself if the game is really simple like LoZ.

What we need are engine's in various programming languages in 2D and 3D, that allows a person to work on some lower level coding to create new features or on higher level content to create a game with the existing features. The problem however is that everyone thinks they are a freaking commercial gamedeveloper and they have to protect there creations, thus they show screenshots and mockups, or release a compiled demo, but real resources won't be shown or they are unfinished products.

Many Community Projects have failed just because the lack of real participation from the members and the staff. There are always people that have things to say, but when it comes to actually creating something then no one does anything. For example with the current engine only 4Sword and I work on it, because
1) people either think that they don't have anything to contribute because what they make is not MC style as if it is the highest criteria.
2) people are afraid of the code, because they don't understand it immediately. Not everything needs to be done with the code. Many things is just varying the member variables of the objects.
3) or people have little interest in GML language and see it beneath them to actually make something for others and improve their own site.

But that is only aimed at an engine. There is also not a community project going on that tries to get resource worthy graphics and music. I see a lot of graphics created, but most of it is merely look at how pretty it is. If people want a game for a community project they need to work on the foundations first and not just think it magically works and they can just create a story discuss some features and voila it is there.

If people want code and resources in a specific language, they need to contribute themselves and they need to help out in other languages as well. Resetting everything will only make the problem worse.

Seriously the problem that I see is that everyone (including staff) is developing for themselves as if it is a freaking commercial product. Sometimes there is a small question by people that are reinventing the wheel again.

Resetting the forum doesn't fix the issues :P I don't think there's really a way to *fix* the forum. You can swap out the staff and the users all you want, but it'll stay the same.

You'd be better off having a new forum entirely.
Having a new forum entirely won't fix it either as long as people are so reluctant to contribute.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 09:18:01 am by Niek »
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Mamoruanime

@Mamoruanime
Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2010, 09:26:17 am »
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Resetting the forum doesn't fix the issues :P I don't think there's really a way to *fix* the forum. You can swap out the staff and the users all you want, but it'll stay the same.

You'd be better off having a new forum entirely.
Having a new forum entirely won't fix it either as long as people are so reluctant to contribute.

Didn't really mean that as a way to "fix" anything :P I just mean "if you want a better environment, do something different." IE not a game dev forum ;p
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2010, 10:28:03 am »
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Okay, my fault.
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2010, 10:39:13 am »
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This place doesn't get a lot of new members because there isn't any big projects here to spark people's interest. TRM had OoT 2D. What this place lack's is any really good project that will spark interest. I'm not "dissing" the current fangames on the forum, but none of them have the advertisement power that OoT 2D had. This place has the same problem currently that namco has with the tales series. They want sales yet they never advertise their games. We want ZFGC to get better, yet we aren't using our power to change it. People aren't advertising ZFGC like TRM did in the past, so people aren't really finding out about this place.
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2010, 10:50:03 am »
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Isn't it sort of a given that people are reluctant to contribute and share? As in a fact of life. We were all like that when we were young at one point or another. Most still are. It's tought.

I agree with FISSURE. What we need are projects to look up to and advertisment, but also a good resources overview (sprites/music/etc) and good resources. Projects probably have more impact but resources also bring in activity. I do not believe any of these things is out of reach.
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Mamoruanime

@Mamoruanime
Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2010, 10:50:17 am »
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This place doesn't get a lot of new members because there isn't any big projects here to spark people's interest. TRM had OoT 2D. What this place lack's is any really good project that will spark interest. I'm not "dissing" the current fangames on the forum, but none of them have the advertisement power that OoT 2D had. This place has the same problem currently that namco has with the tales series. They want sales yet they never advertise their games. We want ZFGC to get better, yet we aren't using our power to change it. People aren't advertising ZFGC like TRM did in the past, so people aren't really finding out about this place.

^This.

I remember back in the day you could google TheRealMethuselah and see about a million results of a stock OoT2d post TRM sent everywhere.

I'm a big advocate of advertising a forum but nobody seems to want to do it. !@#$% even becoming part of another community and sigging ZFGC is good PR.

The whole reason I wanted a resource site attached to the forum is to give people another reason to come here. It's a shame it's not really utilized as it could be.
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2010, 11:04:13 am »
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This place doesn't get a lot of new members because there isn't any big projects here to spark people's interest. TRM had OoT 2D. What this place lack's is any really good project that will spark interest. I'm not "dissing" the current fangames on the forum, but none of them have the advertisement power that OoT 2D had. This place has the same problem currently that namco has with the tales series. They want sales yet they never advertise their games. We want ZFGC to get better, yet we aren't using our power to change it. People aren't advertising ZFGC like TRM did in the past, so people aren't really finding out about this place.

^This.

I remember back in the day you could google TheRealMethuselah and see about a million results of a stock OoT2d post TRM sent everywhere.

I'm a big advocate of advertising a forum but nobody seems to want to do it. !@#$% even becoming part of another community and sigging ZFGC is good PR.

The whole reason I wanted a resource site attached to the forum is to give people another reason to come here. It's a shame it's not really utilized as it could be.

Sadly people may be against clicking forum links in sigs. I can't count how many times i've seen people joining forums i've been on just to advertise their 3 day old forum click a link in a sig to be brought to a forum with 10 topics all made by the admin. People are probably more weary of clicking links in sigs now, or even checking out forums unless it definitely grabs their interest.  ZFGC is by far no 3 day old forum, but it's been out of the limelight for awhile, so it might as well be a new forum for a lot of people who probably never heard of it and are probably weary of checking it out.

We went from the OoT 2D forum, to eventually merging with DSR, to DSR dying and ZFGC respawning. Oh how times have changed.
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2010, 11:06:04 am »
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We'd need people to pull the wagon. Cut up ideas into doable sections and divide those tasks.

Resource gathering is probably one of the easiest things to start with as people seem quick to help. There is just the matter of displaying it in a userfriendly manner. I do not mean this as disrespect for the person who build the current resources overview, but the display could be better. Taking the sprites as examples: on the spriterresource I select the group (mc/alttp/la) and see all the sprites at once on a single screen. Click once and you see the sprites in their actual size.
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2010, 11:16:08 am »
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We'd need people to pull the wagon. Cut up ideas into doable sections and divide those tasks.

Resource gathering is probably one of the easiest things to start with as people seem quick to help. There is just the matter of displaying it in a userfriendly manner. I do not mean this as disrespect for the person who build the current resources overview, but the display could be better. Taking the sprites as examples: on the spriterresource I select the group (mc/alttp/la) and see all the sprites at once on a single screen. Click once and you see the sprites in their actual size.

Looking at the sprites from the main site i agree. I clicked on graphics, and there doesn't actually seem like a way to organize or even search for specific sprite types, etc. If i am a new person to the site looking for resources, Seeing 16 different pages of seemingly random graphics is a little daunting.  It might be easier if they could say edit it so it splits it up into say, different graphics styles or from the different zelda games, etc.
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2010, 02:10:44 pm »
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Advertising only works if there are people pulling the wagon here already. New users aren't going to want to come here if they feel all the work is expected of them or they see that no many here are doing much of anything. Furthermore, the types of people advertising would work on would most likely be Game Maker users who will mostly be n00bs. There is kind of an elitist attitude on ZFGC that we were not really n00bs when we started or that we should just ban off these new users because they don't do some things as politely or as intelligently as they should. I am trying to say we have low responsibility and high expectations of others.

Additionally development issues get sidetracked from a traditional staff focus because of moderation issues and because everyone has busy lives. I am going to be opening up discussion of development issues to everybody though the Developer idea I have mentioned previously. Because some of the frustration with the staff is misplaced in that it obviously cannot do everything, but some of the frustration is semi-warranted in how others aren't compelled to put ideas forward because they feel it isn't their place to do so.

I am just going to go ahead and create the Developers board which is what I have been hinting at for a while. It lacks some forethought how to handle those who want to do things, but it can be worked out as it goes so long as there is not a rush by people to do things or people expecting the impossible. Well the first of the possible problems might not be as bad as the second, but I think overall having a place where development issues could be more openly discussed and managed would be for the best.
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Mamoruanime

@Mamoruanime
Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2010, 02:33:52 pm »
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There is kind of an elitist attitude on ZFGC that we were not really n00bs when we started or that we should just ban off these new users because they don't do some things as politely or as intelligently as they should.

Hmm except new users have been treated quite well. There is of course a difference between n00bs and trolls. Blatant trolls never get treated well. Not by me, not by anyone else here (well; except when it comes to banning them. They seem to be treated quite well by magically avoiding the banhammer with bureaucracy and narcissistic shielding by people who want to prove a point that they're not breaking any rules so they can't be trolls, even though they're quite obviously just that). n00bs are generally only "n00bs" until they realize that we're not handing out everything for them, but we're willing to help them learn things. Generally stupid responses are rewarded with "Why would you do that?" messages followed by "Do it this way." messages.

There are still a lot of users here who would be considered "n00bs", and for the most part, they fit in just fine, and are progressing fine.

In general ZFGC has a broad variety of talent that can benefit new users willing to learn. Xfixium's pretty awesome with C# and the inner workings of GM, MG-Zero has knowledge of C++ and other languages as far as I know, Dantz is pretty much superior in all aspects of storytelling, etc. The difference between then and now is that we all do our own thing. We all have our "cliques" and teams that we follow. It's because we've all grown past this entry level phase and started to develop way beyond that.
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2010, 02:41:59 pm »
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What many of you have replied with was actually what I was trying to say but it was almost 2:30am and I had just gotten home from a long day at work.  But I am glad to see discussion about ZFGC again.
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  • Super Fan Gamers!
Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2010, 03:07:33 pm »
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In some respects, there is too much of a rush to claim that someone is a troll just because they appear initially negative or are asking what look like dumb questions. There are users whose accumulated behavior makes it more appropriate to classify them as trolls, but my gripe is that if we classify too early for those who it is not quite clear are trolls and ban them we run the risk of losing someone who could have been here legitimately. There have been a few accused of being trolls or who have posted kind of annoyingly at first who later came to be users that were alright.

We are better off improving development on ZFGC itself because doing so actually makes the above problem more recognizable in that simple questions and request topics will be previously answered and easily findable. If we were to advertise on the Game Maker Community by posting things like engines on how to do something making sure to link back to here, we might get some legitimate people registering here but we might also get a few people who don't know what they are doing but are interested in what we did. There are people who want to just jump into development for the end result instead of actually being interested in the process. I am a little naive in thinking that a general enthusiasm like that has the possibility of being converted to practical application, but I am alright with that.
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Dantztron 3030

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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2010, 06:51:08 pm »
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Dantz is pretty much superior in all aspects of storytelling, etc.

Oh stop it, I'm blushing.

I am, and have been for some time strongly of the opinion that ZFGC cannot succeed as a Zelda-only forum. The Zelda fangame niche was carved out by OoT2D. OoT2D, at least in its original form, is no more, and the term itself is kind of a joke here and on the rest of the internet. No other game save Shadowgazer has been able to fill that giant, gaping hole. And King Mob, like any responsible developer, saw his chance to elevate the game to a different level and took it.

Zelda fangaming is a niche, and it appeals to an extremely narrow demographic. If we want to expand, we need to broaden our demographic. I do not see how else it is possible.
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well i dont have that system and it is very hard to care about everything when you are single
Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2010, 07:45:39 pm »
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Advertising only works if there are people pulling the wagon here already. New users aren't going to want to come here if they feel all the work is expected of them or they see that no many here are doing much of anything. Furthermore, the types of people advertising would work on would most likely be Game Maker users who will mostly be n00bs. There is kind of an elitist attitude on ZFGC that we were not really n00bs when we started or that we should just ban off these new users because they don't do some things as politely or as intelligently as they should. I am trying to say we have low responsibility and high expectations of others.

Additionally development issues get sidetracked from a traditional staff focus because of moderation issues and because everyone has busy lives. I am going to be opening up discussion of development issues to everybody though the Developer idea I have mentioned previously. Because some of the frustration with the staff is misplaced in that it obviously cannot do everything, but some of the frustration is semi-warranted in how others aren't compelled to put ideas forward because they feel it isn't their place to do so.

I am just going to go ahead and create the Developers board which is what I have been hinting at for a while. It lacks some forethought how to handle those who want to do things, but it can be worked out as it goes so long as there is not a rush by people to do things or people expecting the impossible. Well the first of the possible problems might not be as bad as the second, but I think overall having a place where development issues could be more openly discussed and managed would be for the best.

I don't think the Elitist attitude is as bad as you say, though i haven't spent much time in the WIP boards. Most likely not enough to deter would be newbs.  Though the road goes both ways, if someone is coming here asking for help then it's better for them to be polite about it, or if they can't take criticism well. People here can only do so much if some new people aren't willing to accept ways to make their ideas, game and such better.

Dantz is pretty much superior in all aspects of storytelling, etc.

Oh stop it, I'm blushing.

I am, and have been for some time strongly of the opinion that ZFGC cannot succeed as a Zelda-only forum. The Zelda fangame niche was carved out by OoT2D. OoT2D, at least in its original form, is no more, and the term itself is kind of a joke here and on the rest of the internet. No other game save Shadowgazer has been able to fill that giant, gaping hole. And King Mob, like any responsible developer, saw his chance to elevate the game to a different level and took it.

Zelda fangaming is a niche, and it appeals to an extremely narrow demographic. If we want to expand, we need to broaden our demographic. I do not see how else it is possible.

Well we do have the Other WIP board, although yes the main thing here is pretty much zelda fangaming. Like i said before, OoT 2D seemed like a pretty new and good idea at the time. While some may have thought it before TRM, he was the one that brought it too light and got the idea actually out there. Nothing against the Game makers here but nothing really fits the project and advertisements like that did. TRM was able to get it out there and pretty well known, advertising to people, spreading by word of mouth online. OOT 2D is pretty much the reason a lot, if not all of us were here. While this place was called Zelda Fan Game Central, it's main focus really was OoT 2D, zelda fangaming seemed like more of a side dish then the main cuisine.

You are right about it pretty much being a joke now, no offense to who is making the OoT 2D currently in ZWIP, sorry i forgot, but people probably won't really give it the attention it deserves unless its actually gets completed. TRM left a lot of people on a sour note with the whole Demo 4, "yahoo" etc stuff.

Branching off and broadening the focus of the website/forum is an interesting idea, and one that has been thrown around quite a lot, but there is still a good amount of planning that would have to into it first. We obviously would have to change the name, but to what. We would need a good name that grabs people.
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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2010, 07:49:38 pm »
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Expanding via broadening the focus only works if we have users here that potential users of a demographic other than Zelda can look to as "experts". Those "experts" also have to be posting code or promoting an atmosphere that helps others do what they are doing. Otherwise in whatever form this place exists there is still going to be Zelda projects. In theory, a really good indie game could do what I mentioned, but things like Nintendo games already have people that want to develop games like them because they have been around for a while and are known as being good.
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DJvenom

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Re: Hit the reset button?
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2010, 05:39:17 am »
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I just had a realization as to why I hate all this change and proposed change. We're aiming to (game development-wise) make the forum obscenely user-friendly. Like to the point any member can join, edit 2 sprites and have a Zelda game made. I think it's because I came from the ZFGC where all of the talent was cultivated through hard work and learning. You weren't handed tutorials for every aspect of making a game, or art style development. Yes it's nice for people with a wealth of knowledge to share it, but only when it's asked for. If someone posts a request for a walking engine in the request forum, someone can post one, and if it works well, more people will use it (like TRW's text engine, or SF0's & Tidus04's engine) This is also where a wiki page would be more useful, rather than sticky after sticky linking to topic after topic.

It just kinda hit me why I am less and less interested in this place, though. Sorta surreal.
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I do art
I ermmm... DID do art
I do art
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