ZFGC

ZFGC CP => King of Thieves => Management => Topic started by: Starforsaken101 on November 01, 2012, 06:44:21 pm

Title: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Starforsaken101 on November 01, 2012, 06:44:21 pm
This thread is to discuss the plot for the second part of the story. Please elaborate here.

I know this doesn't sound like much but alas, Max and Niek know more than I do :P.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on November 01, 2012, 07:00:20 pm
Okay, first off. I think there should be a red haring that ties the problems with the various races together. And it would also make it more ominous that something bad is creeping over the land. So I suggest that through Link's travels there are two characters that guide Link through the main story.

The first character is a bad guy/woman. At first he is friendly with Link, but as the story progresses he becomes more antagonizing. He is also responsible for releasing Ganondorf, making some of the problems happen and others allready were happening, but he makes them worse. This guy is pure evil and just want to see the world burn.

The second character is a good guy/woman. At first he is antagonizing towards Link, as he is under orders from Princess Zelda to stop Link from getting the cogs. However over time He recognizes Link for who he is and what his heritage is. He will go against orders and even help Link get to the final cog. He also aids Link in helping the races.

I think both should be Sheikah as it will allow them to be mystics and know about the Triforce and Ganon. The bad guy was exiled because of his vile tendencies.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 01, 2012, 07:55:34 pm
Thanks, Ash!

Ahh, Niek, you ninja'd me! I'm about to post 3 posts, the first 2 with my ideas, and a third with my comments on yours.

Alright, well, before we ported the wiki, Niek and I were discussing some story problems. I think we should try to pick up where we left off, as well as flesh out the problems each race has.

So for one thing, our story doesn't have an antagonist. Ganon is the bad guy, but since he's working with Link for most of the story, that makes him a protagonist then. So therefore, we need SOMEONE to try and stop Link.

We've got plenty of options. I'll make two posts, one with an option I like.

 One I am advocating for is that since Link is working for the forces of evil, somebody working for the forces of good would try to stop him. Basically, once Ganon reveals his true colors, we'll have an antagonist, in both Ganon and Sykes, who Ganon hires. So we only need an antagonist until that point.

The potential problem with a "good guy" antagonist is that a truly good guy would help the zoras and gorons and deku solve their problems, but Link does that. Meaning although the good guy and Link opposed each other, they'd have to work together? Confusing. So here's my solution:

The Shiekah are wise. They get word that someone in Hyrule town is planning on collecting the ancient cogs to the Celestial Clock. Their knowledge of history informs them that whoever collects the cogs can gain access to the master sword, the final lock holding the triforce out of the reach of men. They'd endeavor to stop this from happening, as it could be catastrophic.

The Shiekah have been removed from the rest of Hyrule for a long time, and in a way like the Hylian aristocracy, they look down on those different from themselves. The Shiekah elders decide that the cogs would be safer if they were all in the care of the Shiekah, rather than be scattered and protected by races that can't even solve their own problems. The elders send a skilled warrior to collect the cogs before Link can, to prevent the triforce from being unlocked and stolen.

This warrior is called Ash, after his colorless hair (and after an awesome manager :p ). He wants to keep the triforce safe, for the greater good, but due to the Shiekah's elitist attitude, and his concentration on his mission, he fails to look out for the interests of the people who protect the cogs. In this way, he is a bad guy, he doesn't care about the Goron's plague or the Zora's kidnapped royalty, he just cares about getting the cogs before Link does.

Link and Ash are in a race to get the cogs, each believing that he is working for the greater good. While in the Deku forest, Link hears about a darkly-dressed outsider trying to find a way into the Deku temple. The Deku refused to assist him, and in revenge, the outsider destroyed the gates to the Deku palace, allowing the insurgents to enter the palace and creating chaos. Link, because of his compassion in contrast to the outsider's cruelty, is assisted by both parties, and can get into the temple.

While rescuing the Zora royalty, Link hears that a similarly dressed outsider assisted the fairly stupid Zola in capturing the royalty. After they were captured, the outsider demanded to know the location of the cog. Only the king knew, so he went with the outsider to the island where the entrance to the water temple was hidden. When Link goes to rescue the last hostage, the king, he finds Maple on the way. Link is surprised that Maple captured the Zora royalty, but she explains that she didn't, it must have been someone else, although she is looking for the cogs. She can't find the one around here, so she fights Link for some of his items and then leaves (this is to explain that there are 3 people looking for the cogs). Link goes to the water temple and find Ash there with the Zora king, and Ash explains that he is here to collect the cogs before Link can, and attacks. Link defeats Ash, who escapes. The Zora king gives Link the flippers in gratitude, and Link can then access the water temple.

Link encounters Ash again at the end of the Earth temple. After defeating the boss, Link finds that Ash has gotten there before him, and Ash takes the cog. Link pursues him, and they both bump into Maple, who also wants the cog. She helps Link defeat Ash, who flees, but then lets Link have the cog. She says that she's learned something from watching Link help out the people he meets along the way. People don't look up to Link because he has cogs, it's because he's nice. Maple decides to return to Syrup and ask to become her apprentice once again.

After Link invades the Shiekah temple and collects that cog, he returns to Ganon's room in the palace, but is followed by Ash and other Shiekah reinforcements. Ganon helps Link defeat them, but after their defeat, the Shiekah elders arrive with more warriors as well as Zelda, who reveals the truth of Ganon's plot.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 01, 2012, 08:08:15 pm
Here's another idea I like, rather than somebody powerful, Maple is the antagonist. But more in just an mischievous, almost accidental way.

Link meets her before the first dungeon, and she explains her story, that she wasn't good enough to be Syrup's apprentice, so she's looking for the cogs to prove herself and boost her magic powers. She invades the Deku palace and magically brainwashes one of the guards into letting the Deku insurgents in, who attack the current king and cause chaos. This doesn't actually help her, though, and Link helps calm the confusion and because he cares about the Deku's problems, he helps them settle things, and they let him into the temple.

In the Zora river basin, Maple helps the Zola kidnap the Zora Royalty, who she questions about the locations of the cogs. They tell her they don't know, so she leaves. After rescuing the king, however, the he reveals that he did know, and lets Link in.

In the Goron area, Maple promises the Gorons a potion that will cure their tooth-rotting disease if they give her the cog. They let her into the dungeon, but at the end, Link fights Maple and he gets the cog. However, she then realizes that Link has been helping out all these people instead of hurting them, and has gotten recognition and respect this way, while she's just failed her mission. She decides to make a potion to cure the Gorons anyway, and Link goes off to the Valley of Death.

In the Valley of Death, there's kind of enough innate conflict between the Gerudo and Shiekah that we don't need anyone to initiate it, particularly because if we chose a Shiekah to be the antagonist, that wouldn't make sense, there's shiekah there already instigating the conflict, and if we went with Maple, she kind of isn't powerful enough to influence the Shiekah, they're too powerful themselves.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Starforsaken101 on November 01, 2012, 08:11:08 pm
Alright, my comments so far:

-Ermagerd you named a character Ash :D and he sounds awesome
-I like the Maple being an accidental antagonist idea...it's really interesting.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 01, 2012, 08:22:58 pm
Okay, first off. I think there should be a red haring that ties the problems with the various races together. And it would also make it more ominous that something bad is creeping over the land. So I suggest that through Link's travels there are two characters that guide Link through the main story.

The first character is a bad guy/woman. At first he is friendly with Link, but as the story progresses he becomes more antagonizing. He is also responsible for releasing Ganondorf, making some of the problems happen and others allready were happening, but he makes them worse. This guy is pure evil and just want to see the world burn.

The second character is a good guy/woman. At first he is antagonizing towards Link, as he is under orders from Princess Zelda to stop Link from getting the cogs. However over time He recognizes Link for who he is and what his heritage is. He will go against orders and even help Link get to the final cog. He also aids Link in helping the races.

I think both should be Sheikah as it will allow them to be mystics and know about the Triforce and Ganon. The bad guy was exiled because of his vile tendencies.

I agree about the red herring thing, I was thinking the same thing, which is why I made it seem like Maple was responsible in one of my ideas, when in reality, she was good.

BUT, as for your characters, I don't like either. My problems are this:

Evil Dude - His motivation is... he's pure evil? We have a plot at all, which means that motivation isn't believable. Also, if he releases Ganon, then why does he oppose Link, who is working for Ganon. If he wants to see the world burn, Ganon obtaining the triforce will give him that. So he should help Link.

Good Dude - First, Zelda is initially naive and believes Ganon's story about wanting to help Hyrule, so she wouldn't send a Shiekah warrior to stop Link. How does she even know that Link is on this mission? Secondly, when the good dude recognizes Link's heritage, she helps him? What? Link is working for Ganon, and Ganon is evil, therefore Link is helping do evil. Even if Link is chosen by the triforce, he isn't chosen to help do evil. Link is misguided, so a truly good character wouldn't help Link do his evil quest, he would show Link the truth, that Ganon is evil.


So anyway, I thought of a third option, when you mentioned princess Zelda's orders. Perhaps we could amend the part about Zelda being naive about Ganon's evil, but we could say this:

Zelda had recurring nightmares about the Gerudo King's intentions. She started spying on him in order to confirm her suspicions, and she saw him instruct Link to travel and collect the cogs. Upon telling the older members of the Royal Family this, they didn't believe her. Deciding to take matters into her own hands, Zelda disguised herself as Shiek and set out to stop Link herself.


Oh, and Ash, what? Ermagerd you named a character Ash? Haha, talk in real words, crazy lady! We can develop the Maple idea more too.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on November 04, 2012, 04:55:18 pm
Sorry it took some time. My early post was short. I am not as fast a typer as any of you, so I wanted to get my main idea out. In this post I present the story that I was thinking of, but I did altered it a lot with your comments Max. First I will give some comments on your posts and then provide my idea. Happy readings  :P



Comments:
First off, I like the idea of Maple being accidentally involved with some of the problems. However in your second idea she comes of as really mean and even vile. I think she should be more sneaky and clumsy in the manner.Being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

In your first idea, the Sheikah come of as really mean and even evil. The Sheikah have always been portrayed as the servants of the Royal Family, with great mystical prowess, wisedom and cunning. They are strategists who are at the disposal of the Royal Family. Gathering all four the cogs from their vaults with strong mechanical and mystical protection is a fools strategy. You need all four the cogs to open the sacred realm and bringing them together and releaving them of the existing protection and bringing then all in one place kinda increases the chances that someone evil will succeed in gathering them. Secondly it gives the impression that the Sheikah are preparing a coup on the Royal Family themselves.

The biggest problem is that it makes it seem that the so called plot twist of Ganon's reveal is already known by the player once Link sets out for the first time.

I do find your idea of nightmare visions by Zelda great, although that she goes herself might not be such a good idea as you would get a nanny chase again and her parents would use all the resources to search for her instead of keeping an eye on the Gerudo King she starts to suspect. Unlike OOT Hyrule is not overrun by Ganon yet, that she needs to hide from.



Some back story:
What I advocate is that there is a bad guy. His name doesn't matter at the moment, but you could call him Ash if you want to (if this manager of ours doesn't mind being someone who wants to see the world burn >:) ). He/she is a sociopath and because they rellish in the missery of others not much motivation is needed. He is also capable of magic (how that can be, maybe because he is of a mystical race or had the training). In the past he performed a ritual to release the demon beast Ganon, but instead he got the man Ganondorf stripped of all the Triforce's power. Ganondorf wants the Triforce once more and the bad guy wants to see the misery caused by the Demon beast. But the bad guy tells him that the cogs that seal the Sacred Realm are hidden and spread over Hyrule.

Together they hatch a plan where Ganondorf goes to the Hyrule Castle to obtain more information about the cogs and the Celestial Clocktower. While the bad guy goes through Hyrule to find the cogs through the leaders of the other races. In a forgotten part of Hyrule Castle library Ganondorf finds out that the last mystical defence against the cogs is that the vaults deep inside the temples can only be accessed by the Hero who is marked by the Goddesses in case a great evil would rise again. That is why Ganondorf recruites Link.

Link will meet the Bad Guy throughout the game. He starts of somewhat nice to Link, but as Link stops many of his plans to cause missery he becomes more and more antagonizing to the result that he even attacks Link once he gets all the cogs.



Second act stuff:

The first time Link meets the bad guy is in the Deku swamp where he talks about how amusing the troubles of those Deku are. He closes by mentioning if the Deku King wants to sell their precious treasure already. In the Deku's Village Link learns about the problems of the Deku and how their King is doing nothing about it and only in his castle recieving no one. A magical stranger seems to be responsible for some of them and in one the problems Link meets Maple. Once Link solved all the main quest problems he learns that a mob of Deku has gone to the palace to dispose the king. Link goes there to create peace. He learns from the Deku King that a magical stranger wanted to buy there most precious treasure, but as soon as he found out what that treasure was he became very angry and stormed out, leaving the gate and guards in shambles. The Deku King also thinks the stranger went into Kokiri Forest as the stranger ranted about wanting the cog.

As Link continues into Kokiri Forest he sees the Deku guard post at the border also destroyed. In Kokiri Forest Link is teased by the Spirits of the Kokiri. Near the entrance to the Forest Temple Link sees Maple being plagued by the Kokiri. She is shooting spells at them and of them hits Link. Because the spells are targeted at spirits it only knocks Link of his feet or just singes him. Startled by what she has done she flies away shouting that she will get them and the cog another day. In the Forest Temple Link is confronted by Tilo who tries stop Link from progressing. Once Link obtains the cog in the Forest Temple he is spoken to by a distant voice. The voice is from the lingering spirit of the guardian (Deku Tree?).


With the Zora it is a good idea to do a kidnapping, however kidnapping the entire royal family including the king is perhaps a bit too far to escalate this early in the game. Not to mention that it would leave the Zora without a commander in chief in their civil war against the Zola. My suggestion is that the Bad guy helps the Zola to kidnap the son and daughter of the Zora King. He uses them to ransom the Cog from the Zora King. Link helps to rescue the children from the Zola. Link has to sneak into the Zola stronghold somewhere in River Valley to go to where the kids are locked. When confronted with the Bad Guy he gets some unexpected help from the Sheikah. The Sheikah have learnt that the Forest Cog was stolen and because the Bad Guy now openly tries to get to the cog the Sheikah focus is on him, missing the fact that Link is the one that got the Cog. Once Link reunites the son and daughter with their parents, the King mentions that even though he wanted to give the Bad guy the cog, he still could not do it because the cog is stored savely out of reach of everyone in the Lake Hylia Temple.

Now that the kidnapping is resolved the Zora blockade to Lake Hylia is also lifted and Link can now go there. At Lake Hylia he meets an old explorer Sheldon. He tells Link about the ancient machinery that allow the temple entrance to sink and rise. As Link goes to one of the Machines to make the entrance rise, he sees Maple trying to operate it as well with her magic. Unfortunately she is unsuccesfull and ends up breaking the machine. She yells at Link teling it is his fault that he made her break her concentration and flies off. Link returns to Sheldon. Sheldon fishes some of the required ore from the Lake and forges spare parts, which he then uses to fix the damage to the machine. Sheldon activates the machine and the temple entrance rises. Maple then swoops in to quickly enter the Temple, but is blocked by a magical barrier. She blasts it with some magic but fails. Angry she blaims Link again for her failing and tells him that she will find a spell to undo the magical barrier before flying off. Sheldon tells Link that the barrier is made to keep the selfish people out. Only those with a selfless heart may enter. Thus Link can enter. Once Link gets the cog he is spoken to by the spirit of the guardian (Jabu Jabu?)


With the Gorons the Bad Guy escalates again. What started out as a tooth-decaying disease the Bad Guy turned into a plague infecting the entire body of the Gorons. The Bad Guy offered a potion that would cure the disease if they gave him the cog. However the Gorons are unresponsive to blackmail, so he took the oldest of the goron elders to the entrance of the Earth Temple to force the elder to open the Temple for him. Link who has been helping with other problems has been granted permission by the other elders to take the  mine cart tracks to the Earth Temple. At the entrance Link is confronted by the Bad Guy and again a group of Sheikah come to Link's aid and scare of the Bad Guy. Link can now enter the Temple because he had the permission of the elders to come down there and the magical barrier recognizes it.

Link confronts Maple on Goron Mountain and tells her about the disease. Maple says in her arogance that it is easily solved with a basic potion. But she confesses to Link that she is very bad at making potions. That is why she wants the Cogs. It is said that the cogs give special potion making skills. Link tells Maple that she can keep a cog if she succeeds in making a cure for the Gorons. She replies that if she doesn't get a cog there won't be a cure. So Link gives Maple an old left-over gear he got from Sheldon when he repaired the machine, claiming it is one of the cogs that he got in a dungeon. After Link finishes the dungeon Maple brings a caldren of potion with the cure for the disease. She immediately flies off without a word. When Link leaves Carbon Mines Maple confronts Link again. She is mad that Link tricked her with that fake cog, however she doesn't mind because it gave her confidence in making potions. She returns to Syrup again.


In the mean time Zelda has been having visions and nightmares about the Gerudo King and Link collecting the Cogs. As the King and the Sheikah elders are already chasing the Bad Guy they would not listen to her. Zelda sends her most trusted servent Impa to track down Link. When Impa confronts Link on his way the Valley of Death. She first wants to disable Link and take him back to Hyrule Castle. However as soon as she recognizes the mark on Link's hand she suspects that the danger may be more dire than previously imagined. She tells Link the full story of the Triforce including the part that the Gerudo King left out. Impa decides to help Link obtain the last Cog, because with the cogs powers Link may be strong enough to confront whatever evil Hyrule is facing.

Impa helps out with Link getting in good graces with the Sheikah and she even obtains the information that the fire and ice arrows needed to enter the temple have been stolen by the Gerudo and are now in the hands of Abigail. Link as a poor Hylian boy has a better chance of success to retrieve the arrows than any Sheikah has, so Impa arranges Link's access to the Gerudo Desert. In the Gerudo Desert Link confronts Abigail and her band of Gerudo's and retrieves the arrows. Link returns to the Valley of Death and uses the arrows to enter the Sheikah Temple. After Link finishes the Temple and exits, he is attacked by the Bad Guy. The Bad Guy had waited for Link to complete collecting the cogs and now he will take them from him by force. But he is stopped by Impa. The bad guy and Impa fight for a little while, before they are joined by other Sheikah. The Bad GUy snarks that he has no time for this and runs of. Impa tells a little lie that the Bad Guy has all the Cogs and the other Sheikah follow the Bad Guy. Impa then turns to Link saying that she hopes that Link knows what he is doing and the potential danger he might unleash.



Third act fallout:
In the third act Link returns to the Gerudo King with the cogs, where it is reveiled that the Gerudo King is Ganon. The Bad Guy could make his appearance here as well. He may keep the guards busy, while Ganon takes the cogs from Link. After which they both escape to the Celestial Clocktower. Link would confront the Bad Guy once more inside the Celestial Clocktower before Link confronts Sykes for a final battle. Now armed with the experience of his trials and the Master Sword Link has the strenght to defeat him. Although they don't fight until the Bad Guy has ranted about how he wants to unleash the Demon beast to cause chaos and how his first attempt failed and only got the man Ganondorf. All as a stalling tactic.

Max before you had the idea of making Sykes a redeemable character. Well first I thought it would not work if he was the only antagonist besides Ganon and he should have to keep up Link's exile status from the gang. I think now with another antagonist it should be possible.

My idea is that Farin when he first encountered Link he also saw his mark on his hand and knew the meaning of it. However he thought Link was to young and in a too unfortunate position to stand a chance against Ganon. So Farin took Link in and started training him. He also gathered other gangmembers to provide a happy family for Link. But unconciously Farin always favored Link. Sykes sensed this and it fueled his jealousy. Thus when the Gerudo King Later approached Sykes as well he was thrilled. Sykes decided to help the Gerudo King because he also wanted to bring peace, he also wanted to free Farin and above all he also wanted to be reunited with his parents.

When Link and Sykes fight they fight for real, but when Link defeats Sykes Farin steps in and tells Sykes that he is working for an evil man that does not want peace and happiness, but seeks to rule everything with fear and pain. That is when Sykes realizes his mistake and shows remorse. He even apologizes to Link for being such a jerk.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Starforsaken101 on November 04, 2012, 05:17:25 pm
I know this is short and sweet but I give you guys full permission to portray my name in an evil, watch the world burn, kind of way :P
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 04, 2012, 06:47:08 pm
Haha, alright, but I still don't think an evil-watch-the-world-burn character would fit in this world, especially since we have Ganon, who would be overshadowed by such a character, I think.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on November 04, 2012, 07:58:31 pm
That is just it. Ganon's evil is not really present here. He only becomes evil at the end and for the rest (over 90% of the story)  he has to pretend to be good. And then when the Ganon obtains his full power and evil he is once more defeated and locked up.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 06, 2012, 01:50:32 pm
That's true, I think maybe our problems are that the problems each of the races have aren't, right now, caused by Ganon. Ganon hasn't really done anything bad except overthrow Farin and want the cogs. Maybe we could make Ganon responsible for the problems, and as Link goes through, he slowly sees more and more evidence that Ganon is behind it all:

Before Ganon came to Hyrule Town as a "diplomat", he went to get the cogs himself. He went to the Deku and tried to get their cog fom the king, who refused. Ganon then set in motion a revolution, setting up a puppet king. However, the new king wasn't respected by the Deku people, as he didn't have the Forest Spirit's blessing, a custom Ganon had overlooked when he set up the puppet king. Chaos ensued in the Deku kingdom, as some Deku wanted to follow the king, others refused, and the Deku split into factions. The unstable political climate deadlocked Ganon's attempts to get the cog, as the puppet king was more concerned about staying in power, or even alive, than with getting Ganon the cog.

Ganon also went to the Zora royalty to get their cog, either before he met with Link or perhaps even while Link is in the Deku forest. However, their refusal prompted Ganon to try the same tactic as with the Deku. He incited a war between the Zora and their natural enemies, the Zola, providing the Zola with weapons, enabling them to capture the Zora family. Ganon hoped the Zola would take over the Zora kingdom and then turn the water cog over to Ganon, but the Zora warriors were too strong to fall so easily. Ganon realized that force on his part couldn't gain him the cog, and therefore decides to send Link in the end the conflict he created, and then more passively try to obtain the cog.

The Gorons' tooth-rot disease could also be tied to Ganon. Realizing that demanding the cog directly from the rulers of the tribes wouldn't work, he found out where the cog was hidden, and attempted to sneak into the earth temple himself. However, without assistance from the Goron people (some item the Elder keeps is needed to unlock a door), Ganon could only go so deep into the mines. Attempting to break through the barrier only passable with the Goron elder's seal, he disturbed a creature deep within the earth, who attacked Ganon. Ganon defeated it and sealed it inside the mines, but during the battle, the monster's poison infected the Goron water supply. With this new problem, the elder was certainly not in a position where he was willing to give his seal to somebody.

Pinning the conflict in the Desert on Ganon is easy. Although tensions have been high between the Gerudo and Shiekah for decades, they've been in a cease fire for the past hundred years, on the agreement that neither tribe crosses the others' borders. The Gerudo stay in the desert and out of Hyrule, and leave the Shiekah fields and oasis alone, and the Shiekah stay in Hyrule, and leave the Gerudo's water supply alone. When Ganon came to power, he ordered the Gerudo to invade the Shiekah territory to get their water supply, as the Gerudo have never had enough water. This reignited open conflict between the two tribes. It continues even as Ganon has gone to Hyrule Town. The Gerudo have managed to trap the Shiekah in their valley, preventing them from going to Hyrule to help.


Anyway, I like the Deku one, the Zora one is alright, the other two need work and have some holes.
I'm still in favor of casting Maple as a red-herring bad guy, where you think she's responsible for the Deku confusion, and think she's responsible for the Zora and Goron conflicts, but then learn she's just a little careless and thoughtless, and that the conflicts were started by somone else, who you eventually learn is Ganon. I think it has promise.

Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on November 06, 2012, 07:06:42 pm
I think that having a bad guy run around is too close LttP and TP.  I also feel that with Niek's ideas, there's no reason for Link to go into the temples other than to get the cogs.  The races and Shiekah would realize this and begin to question why he's entering the temple, especially when other cogs have gone missing.

I really do like the idea of Maple as an apparent bad guy, when it's actually Ganon doing things before hand.

Perhaps you and Niek can mash your Goron and Shiekah ideas together somehow?  You both have good ideas and would probably work well at a compromise.

 
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 07, 2012, 12:42:32 am
Yeah, I think we're all leaning toward Maple right now.

About the Gorons, yeah, we should work something together. One thing I really like, though, is the idea of revealing Maple as not the true enemy, and having her realize her bad attitude, right after the Goron temple. This way, her conflict can be resolved, and SHE can make a potion to solve the Goron's problem, because honestly, how would Link solve that? The only problem with this is that then Link is kinda like, okay, so who IS the bad guy, and this would be fine, because Link should start to question things at this point, and then be questioning things when talking to the Gerudo and Shiekah, but we have to figure out how to show that Link is questioning things.

One way to show Link's questioning is if he works with Zelda, and she's just as clueless as he is. Then she could start voicing concerns about Ganon after the Gorons, showing that Link is having concerns too. Then after the Shiekah, she would say, okay, now I have proof he's evil.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on November 07, 2012, 09:50:38 pm
Like I said, I think Maple is a good accidental villain in the way of being at the wrong place and wrong time and being clumsy. But as you put it as the main villain I think it is a bit to vile. When I made her up I also was thinking and mentioned about her being in conflict with the gangs. So she also shows up in Castle Town between the dungeons when the story gets back to there again. The conflict between her and gang members, could help mending wounds between Link and the gang. If Maple has to be this evil character to far in the game those moments will be awkward and make Maple less redeeming afterwards.

I just had an idea for some villains: The Four Horsemen of the Ganondorf  :P Yeah, I know it sounds silly. But considering that with the Gorons there is a plague (pestilence), the zora are in conflict with the zola (war) and with all the spirits and undead in the Sheikah temple (death), we kinda got 3 out of four already. We would miss out on Famine, but the Deku background does not support that yet. Although poisoned or diminished food supply might be one of the problems and the King is hogging it all. Although I would think that "stryfe" would fit better with the Deku.

We could also make it that the bosses in each temple are the demon forms of these horsemen. With the Deku he could create chaos and unrest, so that the Kokiri spirits would not be able to ask them for help when the temple would get invaded. So when Link enters Kokiri Forest a Kokiri Spirit would ask him for help to get the intruder out. With the Zora the horsemen could have use the Zola to stage a war to kidnap the royal children to undo a magical seal. He also takes the children with him in case of more seals. With the Goron the third horseman could have poisoned the land, which send a plague to the gorons. Weakend the Gorons so that also a Goron elder could be abducted to get entrance to the Temple. With the Sheikah the fourth horseman had been sealed in there already ages ago, but the Gerudo had a vendetta against the beast. And thus they stole the arrows that are rumored to be able to unlock the seal.

One way to show Link's questioning is if he works with Zelda, and she's just as clueless as he is. Then she could start voicing concerns about Ganon after the Gorons, showing that Link is having concerns too. Then after the Shiekah, she would say, okay, now I have proof he's evil.
The problem I see with this is that Zelda is part of the Royal Family and knows the triforce myth. If she finds out Link has just one cog she will lock him up immediately.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Starforsaken101 on November 08, 2012, 02:10:23 pm
Hmmmmmm....Niek, that idea is interesting. The four last temples could have the four horsemen. However, if you really want it to be accurate to the upcoming arrival of Ganon, the order would have to be: War, Famine, Pestilence, Death. Just throwing it out there.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 08, 2012, 08:22:52 pm
But why would Ganon have horsemen that work against Link, when Ganon sent Link? It makes no sense to me to have bad guys that are associated with Ganon - who symbolizes ultimate evil in Zelda, so therefore any bad guy that is just evil- working against Ganon's plans, set in motion through Link. It's counterproductive and indicative of bad planning and or management.

I think one thing that's working against us is the nature of Ganon. He's the most evil bad guy, if somebody is just evil, they kind of have to work for him. I guess I haven't played Skyward Sword, but otherwise, you can't really have a force more evil than Ganon, or being evil without working for/with Ganon, or it completely undermines Ganon's character, power, and purpose in the game.
So I don't think we can have horsemen, because they'd be evil (they have to be, they're death and pestilence and stuff :p  ), but wouldn't be in league with Ganon, therefore undermining him.

Anyway, about Maple and her activities with the gang in between dungeons, you're right. Of course, even if she is limited to just causing problems for the gang, I don't see how this would make it harder to forgive her than if we think she's being evil, then learn that no, it actually wasn't her. I hadn't looked at her character entry in a long time. Maybe we could change her around a bit in order to use her as a red-herring antagonist character, though?

See, the thing is, if Link is trying to get the cogs, and Maple is trying to get the cogs, that makes her an antagonist by default, but with her as the way her current entry stipulates, she'd be at best a little miniboss type thing, not a big antagonist, and she probably wouldn't be involved with the race's problems. So if we wanted somebody to more actively oppose Link, which we do want, then we'd need ANOTHER person who's after the cogs, or at least trying to stop Link, and then they'd have to be trying equally to stop Maple. It gets confusing.

So here's my proposition:
We change Maple's role a little bit. Her backstory is the same, she blew up Syrup's shop, and ran away. Now she's looking for the cogs to prove her worth and help her witch powers and stuff. But instead of being in Hyrule Town and picking on the gangs, Link meets her on the road. She's also in the Deku forest, and her actions are vague enough that Link can assume she's responsible for the Deku uprising and stuff. She might even do some things that Link witnesses that seem to confirm this, for example, she might destroy a gate to get into the Deku palace, but this also lets angry Deku rebels in, who attack the palace, etc.

We might also be able to pull off a referral misdirection: If, instead of a human witch, she was a young Gerudo witch (I think Syrup is a gerudo, right?), then people could say things like, "the Gerudo helped the Zola capture our royalty!" or "that Gerudo is the cause of this plague!", and Link might assume that Maple is the Gerudo, when in fact the speakers don't know of Maple, and are referring to Ganondorf.

Meanwhile, if we still want a conflict with Link's gang in Hyrule Town, I'd suggest a rival gang. I think there was a suggestion of this in the sidequests or enemies forum, an NPC that shot slingshots at Link and his gang and tried to steal rupees from Link. In between dungeons, Link could go back and, using his new items, defeat rival gangs and do a kind of turf-takeover thing. So he could assist and mend relations with his gang by helping them defeat rival gangs who have taken over their turf and are preventing them from stealing enough to eat. The end goal of this would be re-friending Link's old gang and gaining access to the hideout, where Sykes would be... gone!?

I'll actually go write this out better in the sidequest board.


But yeah, in summary, we could split the functionalities between Maple and a rival gang.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on November 10, 2012, 04:51:21 pm
Max, I think you are driving Maple's character away from how she is in the Zelda series. You make her look out as total evil, although you want to make a twist of it not being her. Sorry to say this, even though she only appeared in the oracle series she still is an iconic character. And we already told our members that with iconic characters we should not deviate from what Nintendo has put forth. And I think you are now deviating way too much. That is why I think it is better that we make a unique red-hering antagonist, because we can go with it as much as we want.

Another thing about the Gerudo, they should be exiled and only vague descriptions remain. Having the people refer to the antagonist as a Gerudo would be strange. Secondly Ganon is stuck in Castle Town and Hyrule Castle as the Gerudo King, which makes it problematic for Ganon to continue his misdeeds. Third, if Gerudo are causing problems in Hyrule the Royal Family would hear about it. They are stuck up but not stupid. So it would hinder the Gerudo King facade peace talks. And finally confusing Ganon with Maple also brings gender problems. You will not always call Ganon as "Gerudo" or "monster", eventually you need to change it up with "man", "he" and "him". With Maple it would be "girl", "she" or "her".

But why would Ganon have horsemen that work against Link, when Ganon sent Link? It makes no sense to me to have bad guys that are associated with Ganon - who symbolizes ultimate evil in Zelda, so therefore any bad guy that is just evil- working against Ganon's plans, set in motion through Link. It's counterproductive and indicative of bad planning and or management.

I think one thing that's working against us is the nature of Ganon. He's the most evil bad guy, if somebody is just evil, they kind of have to work for him. I guess I haven't played Skyward Sword, but otherwise, you can't really have a force more evil than Ganon, or being evil without working for/with Ganon, or it completely undermines Ganon's character, power, and purpose in the game.
So I don't think we can have horsemen, because they'd be evil (they have to be, they're death and pestilence and stuff :p  ), but wouldn't be in league with Ganon, therefore undermining him
I think you wrongly estimate the role of evil lackeys. In OOT Ganon had Gohma, Volvagia, Twinrova and others, in ALttP there was Aghinim, in TP there was Zant and in SS.... Well in none of these games the Lackeys were evil and they never overshadowed Ganon in power or evil, because it was made clear they worked for Ganon.

I think the four lackeys (horsemen or whatever) would work because Link fights them as bosses of the temples. He defeats them at each temple, thus making them not that powerful but still evil. And Ganon their master (the end of the Hyrule) would be the ultimate evil and a more looming doom. As Ganon pretends to be the Gerudo King he proves to be a schemer instead of brute force. Ganon can have multiple plans working together. He can send Link out to get the cogs. Maybe he succeeds in getting them all or Link (the only one able to weild the Master Sword) would die trying and get cleared out of the way.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 11, 2012, 09:32:40 pm
Hmm, I don't think you understand my intention with maple. Firstly I'll just clarify, the thing about referring to a Gerudo causing the problems was just a random idea, it wasn't a big tenant with my proposition for Maple. Also, we should establish how much the other races interact with Hyrule Town. I'd assumed that the Deku, paranoid, would keep away, and the Gorons and Zora are too wrapped up in their problems to converse with Hylians. But anyway, unimportant.

I was thinking that Maple wouldn't be evil, but rather that it would appear to Link that Maple was causing the problems through careless pursuit of the cogs. The player, honestly, would assume that Ganon was actually behind everything. I mean, who is honestly going to assume that if Ganon is in a game, he's a good guy? And he'll be a little suspicious the whole time too.


Anyway, about your horsemen, they're an interesting idea, but I wasn't saying I have a problem with them because they're evil. I was saying if they were evil and didn't work for/with Ganon, then it'd be wierd. But obviously the can't oppose Link and work for/with Ganon. Doesn't anybody else see the problem with Ganon sending some body/creature to oppose Link, when Ganon himself sent Link? It's like a government sending the secret service to do something, then sending the army to stop the secret service. Why would you do that?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on November 12, 2012, 12:29:10 am
Quote
Doesn't anybody else see the problem with Ganon sending some body/creature to oppose Link, when Ganon himself sent Link?

Yes, I agree with this.  The four horsemen (The Horsemen are drawing nearer On the leather steeds they ride!!!) is a good idea, but it needs to be tweaked.

Some questions we should be asking regarding these guys:

Where did they come from?
Why are they here?

We COULD go a similar route to what FF7 did with Weapon.  Weapon was 100% unrelated to Sephiroth and Jenova and was created to protect the planet in time of need.  Perhaps these could be similar blindly raging monsters that were created to protect the Sacred Realm from threats, Ganon being one of them.  This would make sense because then Ganon would indeed want them disposed of.  We could take it a step further and have them inhabit the temples in order to destroy the cogs, since they are a link to the Sacred Realm.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 12, 2012, 04:41:09 pm
Thanks, Steve :p

One thing, though, I don't think they could be out to destroy the cogs, because the cogs protect the triforce, and keep it locked away. However, maybe I've just been assuming this, but I figure that the reason there are cogs that can unlock the triforce is because the ancient Hylians who locked it away figured they might need to get at it again in a time of crisis. Otherwise, why wouldn't they have just locked it up and thrown away the key?
Another motivation question- if there are 4 horsemen guys, and their drive is to protect the cogs from Ganon (and by extension, from Link), then why do they send plagues on the races that protect the cogs?

Also, maybe we need to go back to why we want an antagonist. Initially, the only opposition we had was that the races had their own problems, which occurred naturally, that is, without outside intervention. They are in the way of Link's progress, but aren't the result of someone opposing Link. I think we thought this wasn't direct enough opposition or something? So we decided we needed a direct antagonist.

However, do we actually need a direct antagonist? What purpose does this really serve? I mean, it makes Link's quest more difficult, but I think challenges not propagated by someone directly to oppose Link can also be employed to make his quest difficult. So question 1, why do we need a direct antagonist?

Secondly, why does this direct antagonist, if we have one, need to be responsible for the problems of the different races? We've been assuming that if we have a direct antagonist, they need to at least contribute to the problems, but maybe they don't. We could have someone want to stop Link from getting the cogs (because they want the cogs themselves, or because they don't want anyone to abuse the cogs, whatever), but this antagonist wouldn't necessarily have to contribute or even care about the races' problems. So question 2, why does an antagonist need to relate to the race's problems? They could just oppose Link directly.



Also, one little unrelated question, we've mentioned that the master sword is in the Celestial Clock. What I've been thinking is that once you use the cogs to get inside the dungeon, it's somewhere in the middle functioning as a second lock. Evil can't touch the master sword, so therefore an evil person wouldn't be able to pull it out to get to the Triforce.
Since Link has gotten the cogs for Ganon but then left him for Zelda and Farin and good, now Ganon's using Sykes to get the triforce, presumably he needs Sykes to be pure hearted enough to pull the master sword.
However, if Sykes pulls out the master sword, then he'll have it, not Link. So are we going to have a fight against Sykes where Sykes has the Master Sword? Because that's pretty cool.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on November 14, 2012, 02:14:11 am
They would destroy the cogs because their interest lies in protecting the Triforce, not the Hylians!  Very similar to how Weapon's concern was the planet, not humanity.
The idea I propose here was to not have the horsemen created by the Hylians, but just something that existed before them.

The cogs are a gateway, and with Ganon's presence, the gateway can potentially become compromised.  Perhaps the problems with the races are an indirect effect of the horsemen doing their job.

And then of course, there's the no direct antagonist option again and the race's problems are occurring naturally.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on November 18, 2012, 07:38:17 am
I feel like that without primary antagonists that the story will just be bout the motions of Link getting some where, enter the dungeon, get the cog and by the end of the game just face Ganon. And there is nothing more to the main story. Yes you might need to solve some problems with races, but the main plot then looks like a chain of subplots. I think the main plot lacks escalation and some of the subplots might lack resolution. The Sheikah/Gerudo subplot is resolved by the end of the game. The Goron subplot might get a resolution in a cure, but depending on the plague doesn't it introduce other problems. With Zora and Deku you have two sets of people facing one another in conflict. At most you get a truce, but not a resolution. The problem is still there.


They would destroy the cogs because their interest lies in protecting the Triforce, not the Hylians!  Very similar to how Weapon's concern was the planet, not humanity.
The idea I propose here was to not have the horsemen created by the Hylians, but just something that existed before them.

The cogs are a gateway, and with Ganon's presence, the gateway can potentially become compromised.  Perhaps the problems with the races are an indirect effect of the horsemen doing their job.

This could also work, but as I said earlier there should be reminders of the danger at the end of the game. The main quest should show the danger and there should be a growth in Link doubting that collecting the cogs is a good idea.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 19, 2012, 12:17:29 am
Well, that would work. Although, we will need to think about if it fits will with the Hyrule universe and if it fits well with our story. I think they'd fit into Hyrule well enough if there was more emphasis placed on them, and more about them was exaplined. However, this would require shifting focus onto them more. I think it'd be a little awkward trying to put something that kind of needs explanation and backstory into this relatively small part, when the rest of the game focuses on different characters.

I say that the horsemen would need more backstory and explanation primarily because this isn't the first time the triforce has been threatened- in fact, Ganon has gotten at it at least once in OoT, and gotten pretty close in other games. If there were horsemen whose sole purpose was to protect the triforce from evil, they've been doing a shitty job. We'd need to 1) introduce these guys into the lore at the beginning of the game, 2) explain why they're there, but not to Link, because that would tell him that Ganon is evil, and 3) explain why they didn't do this before when Ganon went after the triforce.
Personally, I think this is distracting from the main game.

Therefore, I'm still in favor of having either Zelda disguised as Shiek, another Shiekah (working for the shiekah elders, not an evil one), or Maple be against Link, this character's goal is just to get the cogs before Link does. I think this would be simplest and most in-line with the plot we've already established, bring up the fewest problems.

But, if you guys have a reason why these options aren't as good, an explanation for the horsemen that meshes without questions, or another idea, I'm not in charge, I'm just argumentative :p

Niek, you ninja'd me while I was typing. I still say basically the same thing, but will add that I think for an antagonist that would build the plot the most, we should have Zelda, disguised as Shiek. The royal family doesn't take her seriously or believe her when she has a feeling that Ganon isn't who he says he is. She wouldn't be very confident in herself at the beginning either. She would just spy on Link at first, and warn him to be careful who he trusts, then show up later and fight him for his cogs. This idea is far from developed, though...

And I still think that if Maple is also looking for the cogs, she should be the antagonist. Mainly because we don't need three different parties trying to stop each other from getting the cogs. If we don't use Maple, I feel like it might be a good idea to readjust her story.

I think if Maple isn't the antagonist, then she could have an awesome part in JUST the Goron section of the game. Her story can be introduced at the beginning and she wouldn't need to be too pivotal, but she could show up in the mountains, acting callous towards the Gorons and claiming that the earth cog is the secret to creating good potions. She wouldn't be interested in the other cogs. She could then have a help/hinder relationship with Link as they both try to use each other to help get the cog, and she could even help Link defend the cog from the antagonist. However, at the end of the sequence, she would realize that all she really needs is self confidence, and she would make a potion to cure the Gorons. Then her part in the main story would end, the Goron's problem would be fixed, and Link could go on to the Shiekah/Gerudo theatre.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on November 19, 2012, 01:54:51 am
I honestly think that the idea of Maple or a Shiekah getting involved is much better, the horsemen distract from the main story.  They don't really relate very well and we're kind of forcing it into the game.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Starforsaken101 on November 19, 2012, 02:21:32 am
I honestly think that the idea of Maple or a Shiekah getting involved is much better, the horsemen distract from the main story.  They don't really relate very well and we're kind of forcing it into the game.

I'm equally not sure about the horsemen idea because it's kinda really touchy in making it feel right. It's linked with the apocalypse and so much more elements of Christianity that I'm just really not sure it's a good idea to put as a small, second part of a story. I really like the Maple idea better in my opinion.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 19, 2012, 09:02:41 pm
I think Maple is pretty good too. But we need to look into how we can use her opposition toward Link as a way of getting Link to question Ganon, so that the plot builds instead of being flat then spiking at the climax, at Niek mentioned.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on November 20, 2012, 09:16:40 pm
Perhaps she could steal some item from a Gerudo or from the castle that reveals a bit about Ganodorf, which she then drops after one of her encounters with Link?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on November 25, 2012, 10:59:50 am
Okay, so everyone wants Maple. And not to drag things out I will concede. However the Maple Max suggested is still a bit too harsh for my tastes. Especially because she is more a sassy little girl. I do still think that the "Weapon/Horsemen" idea is still good, as it seems more menacing as an antagonistic part towards Link than Maple is. But granted it is a bit weird that they didn't do anything earlier. So this is my suggestion to that.

In the past when Ganondorf was locked up in the Sacred Realm, the ancient hero who wielded the Master Sword before was also locked in the Sacred Realm, leaving the Master Sword behind in its pedestal. Now that Ganondorf is expelled from the realm, the ancient hero has also come back to make sure that no one can ever reach the sacred realm again by destroying the cogs. Where Ganondorf has a full corporeal form the ancient hero is only a shade of his former self. The temples however are shielded that anyone who has touched the Triforce once can not enter them even when they are unlocked. That is why Ganondorf uses Link to get the cogs and the ancient hero uses Maple. The hero has misled Maple by saying that one of the cogs would help her. The troubles with the races then occur due to the resurgence of all the monsters in the world, that are attracted by Ganondorfs evil presence.

Link will be confronted by Maple and the ancient hero, both together and separate on several occasions. Link convinces Maple that she is good enough to do things without the cogs. Over time the ancient hero will reveal to Link that Ganon has been expelled from the Sacred Realm and returned to Hyrule. It is also the reason why all the monsters in the world have resurfaced and thus troubles are occurring in Hyrule. He will also say that it is to dangerous for anyone to use the triforce and that is why the cogs have to be destroyed. Maple just wants to become a better witch, thus helps the hero get the cogs. She tries this sneakily, but in all clumsiness she breaks stuff and gets caught, which makes her just frantically shoot magic just to get away.

As an addition to the Third Act I think that Link would get the Master Sword before he enters the last temple. When Link enters the room he is confronted by the ancient hero for the last time. The hero tells Link that in the past using the sword he was only capable of sealing Ganondorf away. He and Link both are separate not a match against Ganondorf, but together they might have the enough strength to defeat Ganondorf once and for all. Thus when Link pulls the Master Sword out of his pedestal the hero merges his essence with Link (which incidentally might half the damage Link gets from enemies).
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 28, 2012, 12:27:14 am
Niek, awesome idea! Oh wait, your name is different now... But I can't spell it! Can I just call you Z or something? :p

Anyway, I like it, I think we can make it work. I think one addition we can make that would help the narrative would be the will of the Triforce. The whole idea then, summarized a bit, is that when Ganon returned, to balance this, the triforce summoned the ancient Hero's ghost from the void to assist Hyrule in the lack of a true hero who was ready. Additionally, when Ganon breached the seal from the dark world where he was trapped, monsters from the dark world were able to enter Hyrule, causing problems for everyone. Ganon is also able to use this to his advantage politically, pressuring the Hylians to work with him in this dire time.

Due to the magic of the cog temples, neither Ganon or the Hero's Shade can enter, so they each find a pawn to help them. We should probably speculate on why the Hero's shade chooses Maple, presumably this means she's pure of heart, maybe this means she helps Link out at the end, too, or something.

Initially, Maple will appear to be working for herself, then reveal to be working for someone else, who is presumed to be a bad guy, then reveal to be working for an ancient entity, then finally, reveal to be working for a good guy.

I like it, we should figure out how it builds, like how Link finds out slowly and isn't tipped off that Ganon is evil, also how this relates to the plot in individual areas.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on November 28, 2012, 03:41:18 am
Yea, I like this idea but it doesn't answer much about the problems with each race.  Why are they happening?  Are they unrelated?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on November 30, 2012, 03:03:37 pm
I think the problems from each race are a result of the monsters entering the world, which is a result of Ganon. The Zola attack would be natural if they showed up, since they have the same ecosystem and would fight for territory, the Gorons' problem could be a result of a water supply poisoned by a monster. The Deku's problem could be exacerbated by a monster, but I'm not exactly sure how that would work out. Since their issue is that they are fighting among each other over who should be king. The old king lost respect because he wanted to get the cog for Ganon. I don't exactly know how that one will work out.

Then the Shiekah's are really undefined. Do they even have a problem? The Gerudo probably aren't their problem, because if the Gerudo were fighting them, they would alert the Hylians, who would cease negotiations with Ganon.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on November 30, 2012, 03:08:10 pm
The Deku problem could be explained by a monster sent by Ganon that offered him some reward.  Greed takes over, and he decides to try and turn the cog over to the monster.

The Shiekah have the issue of their temple being sealed with that horrible monster inside of it that corrupted several of the Shiekah, including those trapped in the temple.  Basically, they can't enter their own worship grounds and to top it off they KNOW something with Ganon is going down.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on November 30, 2012, 07:36:20 pm
I was also thinking about that the problems are caused by the monsters attracted to the evil of Ganon. But it doesn't necessarily have to be one monster per region. We could even have (mini-)boss level monsters that Link has to fight outside of dungeons, just as TP did with the Bokoblin leader and SS with the Imprisoned. This would allow us to use more than just 5 boss and mini-boss characters.

With the Deku a monster could be trying to play (or feed) of the King's greed. Which makes the King ignore his duties to his people. We also have an enemy type "Mad Scrub" and part of their description is that they got mad due to a poison seeping into the swamp. We could make it that there is a cave or a part of the swamp where this poison is spreading due to a monster. Link will have to destroy it to clear the poison, although those scrubs that have gone mad will stay mad (due to Ganon's evil presence or just tragedy). Blaze also had the idea of a maze in the swamp, which could be caused by yet another monster casting an illusion, trapping deku and other travelers. Of course there are also minor problems Link can solve, because the deku with the problem is just to scared to venture from the village due to the monsters.

Having Link solve these problems would earn the trust of some deku. However he is still blocked by the guards to the Deku Kings palace. At one point he will find the guards asleep, put under a spell by Maple. As Link explores he will find Maple searching for clues about the hiding location of the cog, somewhere in a remote part of the palace. They then hear some loud noise, Maple might says something "Oops, I left the front door open. I hope the King will be okay! Oh well, I am off with the map to the cog. Tada!", before she leaves. Link goes to investigate the noise and finds an angry mob in the throne room facing the King and his guards.

Some of the deku are paranoid of him and want to get rid of Link, but the others that Link helps trust him and vouch for his kindness. The monser that bribes the King then shows up angry and showing his true face and Link has to fight it earning the trust of the others as well. [We could even make it a protect as many dekua s possible event] As soon as the monster is defeated, it becomes even apparant that the Deku King is not only greedy but also a coward. The Deku prince finally sees that and stands up to take charge. The prince orders some guards to help out with monsters approaching the village and other problems. [There still might be other problems for Link to solve]

When Link questions the butler about the cog, the butler tells Link that the deku do not guard the cog, but the Kokiri do. The palace was build to guard the only entrance into Kokiri Forest and Link gets free passage to it. The butler hopes that Link can use the cog to destroy the monsters once and for all. This is for now the only entrance into Kokiri Forest, but from the Forest side Link can open up other passages.

Next is the Kokiri Forest chapter, but I'll leave it at this for now.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on November 30, 2012, 08:23:07 pm
I like that, seems solid.  Anyone else in favor of using it?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on December 01, 2012, 07:15:06 pm
Niek, awesome idea! Oh wait, your name is different now... But I can't spell it! Can I just call you Z or something? :p
Niek, Zaeranos or Z, whatever rocks your boat is just fine.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on December 01, 2012, 07:36:19 pm
Awesome, I like this too. Since its a swamp, maybe we could take a root system approach to this. What I mean is, due to Ganon's escaping from the dark world and monsters being attracted to him, a poisonous fungus monster started growing in the swamp. The result of this is a dense fog seeping over the swamp, lots of little swamp monsters appearing and attacking Deku, and the main fungus monster's root system extending throughout the Deku swamp, so other bodies growing from the same root system can spring up in different places, causing Deku nearby to go mad.

I think we should concentrate on the madness rather than a sentient monster bribing the Deku king. The king was exposed to the monster's spores, which are causing him to act crazy. He's sealed up the palace and is ordering the guards to ignore the swamp monsters and just protect him.

So then, just to restate so I understand you properly:

The Deku are outraged about this and demand a new king, although some remain loyal, but nobody can do anything since the palace is locked up. The Deku village isn't currently affected by the fungi, but they're getting close. Link's activities to help the Deku might include destroying small shoots of the fungus that have sprung up near the village.

Ater he's done enough helping Deku tasks, he'll return to the village to find that many of the Deku are missing and the palace is unlocked, then? Inside, he encounters Maple, who's found a map to the cog, and says, oops, looks like I left the gate open! And then Link finds the Deku have stormed the throng room and are demanding that the king be sacrificed to the Kokori spirits to appease them.

Link is surrounded by Deku who consider sacrificing him, although those who he helped are on his side. Suddenly, the wall is torn down and swamp monsters come in and attack. Link must fight them off and destroy a fungal shoot that had been growing on the palace wall, thereby gaining the trust if the Deku. The prince, inspired by Link's bravery, takes control of the situation, and the Deku Butler grants Link access to the Kokori forest. Link will have to make it through the swamp maze, though.

So then, I was thinking the boss of the Kokori temple could relate to the fungus, so that destroying the boss would cause the fungi all over the area to die, making it safe for the Deku and returning the swamp back to it's less foggy and monster-free normal state.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on December 02, 2012, 02:36:22 pm
Awesome, I like this too. Since its a swamp, maybe we could take a root system approach to this. What I mean is, due to Ganon's escaping from the dark world and monsters being attracted to him, a poisonous fungus monster started growing in the swamp. The result of this is a dense fog seeping over the swamp, lots of little swamp monsters appearing and attacking Deku, and the main fungus monster's root system extending throughout the Deku swamp, so other bodies growing from the same root system can spring up in different places, causing Deku nearby to go mad.

I think we should concentrate on the madness rather than a sentient monster bribing the Deku king. The king was exposed to the monster's spores, which are causing him to act crazy. He's sealed up the palace and is ordering the guards to ignore the swamp monsters and just protect him.
Focussing more on the King's cowardice is probably a good idea, however I don't think we should just limit to a single enemy. I already was thinking about a plant like enemy causing it. However only having plant enemies is not right, especially because we have a list of monsters for this region already. It can still use some plant enemies though. However reptiles, such as toads, can also be found in a swamp.


The Deku are outraged about this and demand a new king, although some remain loyal, but nobody can do anything since the palace is locked up. The Deku village isn't currently affected by the fungi, but they're getting close. Link's activities to help the Deku might include destroying small shoots of the fungus that have sprung up near the village.
That can be one of the things that Link will have to do before being able to continue.

Ater he's done enough helping Deku tasks, he'll return to the village to find that many of the Deku are missing and the palace is unlocked, then? Inside, he encounters Maple, who's found a map to the cog, and says, oops, looks like I left the gate open!
I think it is better to guide the player towards Maple first before the confrontation in the throne room. One way is to keep the throne room doors locked until then. This is a bit strange if the mob went in before Link. In addition if the mob went in after Link it also would give an oops idea with the player, because Link didn't close the front door either.

And then Link finds the Deku have stormed the throng room and are demanding that the king be sacrificed to the Kokori spirits to appease them.

Link is surrounded by Deku who consider sacrificing him, although those who he helped are on his side.
Well in MM the deku were prepared to burn a monkey on the stake as well, so sacrificing isn't that weird. Although the appease of Kokiri Spirits seems a bit of. It kinda makes the Kokiri seem like gods. While in fact they are a tragedy. They were once a race, joyous full of life, and now they are dead and nothing more than spirits. I think the deku Kokiri connection should just remain to the bit where they guard the entrance to Kokiri Forest and not God worshipping.


Link will have to make it through the swamp maze, though.
I was more thinking about having the maze be one of the problems to solve.

So then, I was thinking the boss of the Kokori temple could relate to the fungus, so that destroying the boss would cause the fungi all over the area to die, making it safe for the Deku and returning the swamp back to it's less foggy and monster-free normal state.
Monster-free? You always need some monsters or the overworld becomes empty and boring. The dungeons are primarily there to protect the cogs and not to cause problems for the people. I think it is best to establish that with the first dungeon, before immediately deviating from that.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on December 02, 2012, 03:03:01 pm
Awesome, it looks like we're on the same page from most of your comments on my comments. A couple things to maybe clarify:

I didn't mean JUST a giant fungal monster, I meant, that is the main cause of the problems. But a big ol mushroom isn't actually a great enemy, as it can't move, so I was thinking mushrooms would grow up in areas, and then swamp monsters, like reptiles/amphibians/the enemies we already have for this area would be there too.

For example, area A under normal circumstances is a habitat for chu chus and peahats. When Link gets there, a fungus will be growing, and its spores will attract more vicious enemies, like swamp moblins or something, and the spores will cause Deku to go mad, thereby creating mad scrubs.


About the order of people entering the palace, what I'm envisioning was Link leaves the village to accomplish the last helping Deku task. While he's gone, Maple leaves the door to the palace open, so when Link gets back, it's indicated that he should go there because the Deku people have gone inside. On his way in, he meets Maple on her way out. He then goes in to help the Deku.

The reason I wasn't picturing it the other way was because when Link gets back to the village, Maple will have left the door open for Link to get into the palace. That means that the door will have been open for as long as Maple was in there, and none of the Deku, who are freaking out and ready to form an angry mob, noticed that the door was open until Link went in. I just think that it'd be more in character for the Deku to pounce on the opportunity to get in right when it happens. Also, I feel like it'd be a bit weird if inside the palace, Link is talking to Maple and fails to notice a large angry mob walking behind his back into the throne room. I guess it depends on the layout of the palace for that one, though. Either way, this isn't really a big deal.


About the forest maze being one of the tasks Link has to solve, I thought the forest maze led from the Deku village to the Kokori dungeon. Why have the player go to the dungeon entrance, then turn around and go back, then go back again?


Also, yeah, monster free way a bad way to put it. I meant that the big fungus monsters would be gone, along with whatever monsters (swamp moblins or whatever) were threatening to overwhelm the Deku village.




On another note, something about Maple I thought of:
As she's the antagonist for much of the game, maybe she could have a more active way of antagonizing Link. Like, instead of flying past him saying, 'I'm after the cog!', what if she could also summon an enemy. Specifically, the puppet-creatures that the Skull Kid from Twilight Princess could summon. She'd summon these marionettes to stall Link, they wouldn't really do much damage as she doesnt want to hurt Link just slow him down, but then she'd be a more active enemy.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on December 02, 2012, 07:25:03 pm
About the order of people entering the palace, what I'm envisioning was Link leaves the village to accomplish the last helping Deku task. While he's gone, Maple leaves the door to the palace open, so when Link gets back, it's indicated that he should go there because the Deku people have gone inside. On his way in, he meets Maple on her way out. He then goes in to help the Deku.

The reason I wasn't picturing it the other way was because when Link gets back to the village, Maple will have left the door open for Link to get into the palace. That means that the door will have been open for as long as Maple was in there, and none of the Deku, who are freaking out and ready to form an angry mob, noticed that the door was open until Link went in. I just think that it'd be more in character for the Deku to pounce on the opportunity to get in right when it happens. Also, I feel like it'd be a bit weird if inside the palace, Link is talking to Maple and fails to notice a large angry mob walking behind his back into the throne room. I guess it depends on the layout of the palace for that one, though. Either way, this isn't really a big deal.
Makes sense. The way I was thinking, was that Link and Maple would meet up in the Butlers room where the map was hidden. And when later the Butler grants Link passage he couldn't find the map in his room any more. The Link could get in was because the guards are still a sleep but still erect (maybe have some Zs or stars floating). The mob would then see Link go in and guards did not react, thus they follow.

Ah well, either way is fine with me.
 

About the forest maze being one of the tasks Link has to solve, I thought the forest maze led from the Deku village to the Kokori dungeon. Why have the player go to the dungeon entrance, then turn around and go back, then go back again?
What I understood, was that Blaze wanted to make it so that the Forest Maze would disappear and have something else in return. First its was a grassland where a village would rise and now I think it is a river boat ride with minigames and some other stuff. If it would run all the way up to the dungeon than that means that a big part of the Kokiri Forest would disappear. Not to mention I had some other ideas, i think are more fitting as a narrative for that part.

1) Link would stumble across a ruined village of tree houses, now overgrown with plants and housing some monsters. Some houses Link can enter and he would learn more about the tragedy of the Kokiri, by carvings on the wood and a well preserved diary.
2) Link would also meet the ancient hero for the first time here. The ancient hero would be reminiscing about how lively this village of children was in his days and how honored he was to be let in to meet with the great Deku tree. But quickly vanishes when monsters arrive.
3) Link would also come across a giant withered tree, which is the corpse of the old Deku tree (at least if the corpse of the deku tree doesn't become a dungeon).
4) Link also visits Syrup's Potion Shop for the first time and gets some backstory on Maple. However this can also be optional.
5) At the dungeon entrance Maple is being teased by the Kokiri Spirits and Maple is blasting spells all around her. One of those spells hit Link and when she sees Link a bit crispy around the edges and the Kokiri laughing about it, she flies straight into the dungeon.
6) In the dungeon Link sees Maple for the last time during the Wind Cog part of the story. Maple falls into one of Tilo's traps, which sends her out of the dungeon (a trap that Link is also susceptible to)

However I am going a bit ahead of myself now. It is better to get the Deku part finished first.


On another note, something about Maple I thought of:
As she's the antagonist for much of the game, maybe she could have a more active way of antagonizing Link. Like, instead of flying past him saying, 'I'm after the cog!', what if she could also summon an enemy. Specifically, the puppet-creatures that the Skull Kid from Twilight Princess could summon. She'd summon these marionettes to stall Link, they wouldn't really do much damage as she doesnt want to hurt Link just slow him down, but then she'd be a more active enemy.
Great idea, although not for this part of the game yet. I think that is better for with the Zora or the Goron. At this point Link is just a brat from the gang in Castle Town that gets on her nerves. Although she might be baffled by why Link is there, Maple does not know that Link is also after the cogs. Once Link obtains the Wind Cog, she realizes (or is told by the ancient hero) that Link is a bigger obstacle to her mission that thought off before. We would then see an escalation in her character and would become more active in obstructing Link.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on December 03, 2012, 01:05:03 am
Yup, I agree with you on all those points. The order of the Deku doesn't matter much for me either. The main reason I'm thinking the Deku get in before it ease of portraying the narrative. It's more difficult to show that the Deku notice Link going in than to show that they've alrady gone in, and easier to just have Maple bump into Link on his way out rather than have Link find her inside.

About the stuff in the Kokiri area, I was thinking the same things, except I was thinking the Deku tree could have fallen over, like a giant fallen tree would be awesome rather than a still upright one.

Also, yeah, I was thinking the marionettes would be something Maple did later, I just thought of it now.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on December 03, 2012, 02:04:10 am
Yup, the Deku Tree would be fallen over.  Ganondorf uprooted it himself before he was sealed :)

The kokiri forest/village itself will also be an interesting path to the temple.  There could be skull kids that have to be saved from kokiri spirits who are haunting them or even witness a kokiri spirit turn into a Stalfos which you then have to fight.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: SelcouthFish on December 03, 2012, 05:42:17 am
I'm a little tentative in posting here, because the only people I've seen discussing in here are the mods and manager, and far be it from a lowly CP servant to barge into their conversation unannounced. However, I do have a question which pertains to how Link gets the cogs from the temples. Are the temple guardians which I've heard are protecting the cogs (spirit of Jabu Jabu, spirit(s) of the Greak Deku Tree/Kokiri, etc.) being oppressed within their own temples/dungeons by the evil forces occupying those areas (bosses, mini-bosses, etc.)? And is Link going through those areas, defeating the enemies, and being rewarded by proving his courage, or going in their, defeating the enemies, and freeing the spirits which protect the gears?

I ask this because I was thinking that, on a similar note to the "four horsemen" idea being played around with here a while ago, it would make no sense for the evil beings which reside in the dungeons to be trying to stop Link carrying out Ganondorf's mission (at least the larger bosses/mini-bosses), because they are under the influence/are servants to Ganondorf. I understand that he may not be able to directly control them because he's "lying low" at Hyrule castle, but having them technically work against him is a plot hole which is, at least to me, a nagging annoyance. And there are myriad ways which I can think of which could fix this, and I'm sure with a bit of community input and conversation a realistic and satisfying "patch" to said hole could be created.

Or has this been talked about already, and I just didn't get the memo? I don't know every bit of information here in the forums regarding the story, but I've combed through a lot of things, and thoroughly understand the basic plot line which is in the KoT GDD.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on December 03, 2012, 02:37:55 pm
Hey Fish, welcome to the forums. Doesn't hurt my feelings that you're asking a question here.

Anyway, we haven't really discussed that much. I've kind of been thinking that there are traps and puzzles set ages ago to keep people out of the temples, those oppose Link/Ganon. And then there are just wild animals that Link fights, maybe the monsters were attracted to the world because if Ganon, but they're just wild and destructive and aggressive, they don't recognize Link as working for Ganon, they don't recognize Ganon, they just find the world with Ganon in it a comfortable place to be, and they attack people nearby.

The bosses, I think, if they aren't the same situation, are just there to attack anybody going into the temples. Doesn't even matter who they're working for.

So I don't guess that the guardians are being oppressed, then. They're just spirits anyway, so they're kinda like ghosts. They might not even be aware of what's going on when nobody's defeated the boss.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on December 03, 2012, 03:27:52 pm
The bosses could very easily be the same situation and I don't see any reason not to make them that way. 

As for the guardians, I don't think we discussed them that much.  If we even have guardians, we certainly wouldn't want them to communicate with Link as that would seem rather odd since he's doing the dirty work. 

Maybe these guardians could be who woke up the ancient hero?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on December 03, 2012, 09:10:13 pm
Welcome SelcouthFish. Max and I are mostly working on the story with some input from Star and MG. We had decided earlier that a few people would be working on the main storyline. This to prevent the story from being pulled to a dozen different directions. Which would end up in a mess or very long drawn out discussions leading nowhere. As you can probably see the discussion for just the main red hering antagonist has already been quiet a length to read.

However that doesn't mean that we will completely ignore everything about the community. If you have a good idea feel free to post it. And if we like it we might use it in the story. It is a Community Project after all. But do consider the place in story development.


About the Guardians or dungeon bosses. Well we aren't there just yet. Although good to talk about maybe. My thoughts is to make these varied in reason why they are there. One might be placed as a protector of the cog, another might just be a very power invading beast (with little talent). Another monster might have been send by Ganondorf to get the cog, but he considered a failure as the monster didn't came out. I think that maybe the final escalation with Maple might be that she would summon the dungeon boss to stop Link from getting the cog and she gets blown away when Link defeats the boss  :P. There are many options and we'll see when we get there  ;). Now I like to focus on the adventures with the Deku and the Kokiri.   
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on December 08, 2012, 09:06:18 pm
Alright, so we're probably all busy because of finals, but I'm starting to forget where we left off.

There was discussion about the Kokori spirits, I was under the impression the Deku kind of reverenced them as gods because of plot stuff from the old KoT iteration, which mentioned them wanting to sacrifice the king to the Kokori spirits, I liked the idea, but if there's a good reason for the Deku to not think of the Kokori as gods, then cool.

So Link will prove himself to the Deku and be told by the butler that the cog is hidden in the Kokori forest. Presumably Link will either get the boomerang now, or he got it after completing the last task to help the Deku, which is going through the forest maze, right?

So now he'll go through the forest maze, which Link already went through and defeated a Miniboss type in the middle, allowing quicker access to the gate to the Kokori forest. Link goes through the Kokori forest a little ways and comes across the abandoned overgrown village where the Kokori used to live. He sees the hero's shade looking at the village, but it disappears when Link approaches it and some enemy appears.

I was thinking that the Kokiri village would be a large puzzle itself, where you had to find switches in the old houses to open the way to the Deku tree or something. Then the Deku tree would be a part of the dungeon, either dead and hollow or fallen over.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on December 08, 2012, 09:29:27 pm
I like the village being a puzzle, or maybe even an extension of the maze itself (one that still exists after the maze vanishes).  We could make the Deku Tree lead up to the temple entrance (guess we could say it fell over and landed conveniently in the temple).  The player could either go through the tree to get there or walk ontop of it.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on December 11, 2012, 07:52:36 pm
Sorry for not participating so much. I just got my WiiU  8)

Alright, so we're probably all busy because of finals, but I'm starting to forget where we left off.
I think we were still working on the tasks Link has to do for the Deku. But got a bit sidetracked ahead to what the dungeon bosses should be.

There was discussion about the Kokori spirits, I was under the impression the Deku kind of reverenced them as gods because of plot stuff from the old KoT iteration, which mentioned them wanting to sacrifice the king to the Kokori spirits, I liked the idea, but if there's a good reason for the Deku to not think of the Kokori as gods, then cool.
The reason I'm against it is because their deaths is a tragedy, due to the evil act of Ganon destroying the Deku Tree. If the Kokiri are revered as deities, then it seems as if it was good that Kokiri died. Which makes Ganon's act of killing the Deku Tree a good thing.

So Link will prove himself to the Deku and be told by the butler that the cog is hidden in the Kokori forest. Presumably Link will either get the boomerang now, or he got it after completing the last task to help the Deku, which is going through the forest maze, right?

So now he'll go through the forest maze, which Link already went through and defeated a Miniboss type in the middle, allowing quicker access to the gate to the Kokori forest.
I don't think the Forest Maze that turns into a part of the swamp should lead to the dungeon already, because as you said earlier. Link would already access Kokiri Forest, turn around and then is allowed access to the Forest. Thus I think it would be better as an illusion to the Deku Swamp.

My idea with the Kokiri Forest was another kind of maze. I was thinking that the layout of the Forest except for a few spots is fluid. That the Kokiri Spirits are moving, growing, shrinking trees and rocks in the area, and thus constantly changing the path you can follow. And when you get the boomerang the you can throw them at the Kokiri Spirits to prevent them from changing the area. But the last bit might be weird.

I like the idea of the Kokiri village being a puzzle, but first lets deal with the tasks Link has to do. (not in order)
1) Forest Maze: Link has to travel through a part of the Swamp turned into a forest by a monster.
2) Mad Scrub poison well: Somewhere in the Deku swamp is a plant/fungus like enemy sending out poison/spores that turns deku scrub into mad scrubs.
3) ?
4) ?
5) ? (is five enough)
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on December 12, 2012, 12:03:40 am
5 is plenty!

At some point, he will need to of course enter the Deku Palace to be informed of whats going on there.  I like the idea of breaking and entering honestly, because it fits the stealthy thievery theme.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: BlazeBigBang on December 12, 2012, 12:05:37 am
Well, thanks for having in mind the Forest Maze. Shall I redesign it to make it fit better?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Kami on January 13, 2013, 10:54:35 pm
By the looks of it, I think we're still defining the kokiri forest.

I do have some thoughts I want to share but I'm still thinking them through, and thinking on the practibility of them.

But I'm thinking that the fungus creature niek suggested, would taking over their minds making them twisted and sickly looking.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on January 14, 2013, 05:03:18 am
Well, the spores would cause them to become mad scrubs, an enemy typically defined by their differing coloration so I imagine we could color them sickly looking.

Niek, about the Kokori being worshipped, I wasn't thinking their deaths made them revered deities. I was thinking more along the lines that their tragic destruction caused their spirits to linger on the terrestrial plane, and the Deku are afraid of them, in their paranoia they offer sacrifices every once in a while. The Kokori spirits don't have to be bad for the paranoid Deku to be afraid of them and therefore worship them. But we can do it however, if you still think that them not being worshipped is better, I just wanted you to understand my point, but I'd rather defer to you. I think you're better at this, honestly ;p

Also, the five ish tasks Link needs to accomplish:

You mentioned:
1 Defeat a fungal body creating mad scrubs
2 Defeat something in the swamp and thereby clear the fog and confusing, maze illusion stuff

I'd add
3 Probably defeat another fungal body that creates mad scrubs
4 Find a way to rescue Deku trapped outside the village by monstrous growths and/or swampfrog monsters
5 Somehow help shore up the village's defenses

Not necessarily in that order.

Then Link could sneak into the palace and encounter the king, confront some monsters, and win the Deku's support and information on how to get into the forest temple.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on January 14, 2013, 09:17:26 pm
Niek, about the Kokori being worshipped, I wasn't thinking their deaths made them revered deities. I was thinking more along the lines that their tragic destruction caused their spirits to linger on the terrestrial plane, and the Deku are afraid of them, in their paranoia they offer sacrifices every once in a while. The Kokori spirits don't have to be bad for the paranoid Deku to be afraid of them and therefore worship them. But we can do it however, if you still think that them not being worshipped is better, I just wanted you to understand my point, but I'd rather defer to you. I think you're better at this, honestly ;p
I do understand and if you look at the Deku you would think they are based on some inca or aztec culture. I'm not sure, but the Aztecs had sacrifices to reinvigorate the sun. However Hyrule in every Zelda game is some utopian land with its quircks and characteristics. And than a demon (Ganon, Vaati, Maladus, Majora, Demise) comes and upsets the utopian society. I don't think that revering or being afraid of the spirits is a bad thing. The deku might have build some shrine to honor or appease them (which could be the door to the Kokiri Forest).

Human sacrifice or in this case Deku sacrifice, just does not seem to be something that would fit a utopian society. However Majora's Mask showed that it is still plausible that Deku would burn someone at the stake to punish them in a flash of anger. And the Deku are angry at the king for not doing his job and protecting the village, but only protecting himself. Or we would again need to put the focus on the King selling out the cog or something.

The burning at the stake I don't have a problem with the King burning at the stake. The problem is more the reasoning behind it. Actually I think that it could even be hilarious. The stake is lit on fire, the King asking/screaming for water to dowse the flames. And suddenly he get a shitload of water over him, because the monsters came through the roof where the King had his personal pool or something.  :P (The latter is a bit of a whimpsy brain storm.

------

Another idea I had for the tasks was that some bokoblin (or other monster) had stolen the merchandise of a Deku merchant and Link has to get the stuff back. But that could probably also work with the Zora and Goron areas. And maybe a taks that is probably a prelude to what will come later in the game. Link would find either a sick Goron or beaten Zora that is plagued by monsters or is in need for some medicine.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on January 27, 2013, 03:40:31 pm
Can we get a summary of the Deku Story up to this point?  I've been a bit out of the loop on this one recently.

EDIT: It actually looks like we're pretty solid on the Deku Story, so I'm going to summarize it and add it to the Wiki.  Let's move forward with the Kokiri Forest.

Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on January 29, 2013, 12:32:15 am
So far we know that we're going to pass through the forest maze to the Kokiri Forest and into the Kokiri Village.  Defeating something in the swamp to clear the fog could be something simple.  Like a room underground full of fungus and plants that create the fog and more spores.  The room could connect to some capillary type of things to the surface of the swamp, filling it.  Link could clear out these caverns of the plants, clearing the fog.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on January 29, 2013, 06:52:36 am
So far we know that we're going to pass through the forest maze to the Kokiri Forest and into the Kokiri Village.
Actually, I think the forest maze is independent of Kokiri Forest, because once the the Forest Maze is cleared it turns back into the swamp.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on January 29, 2013, 02:02:04 pm
I was under the impression that it was a path between the Swamp and the Forest?

EDIT: Deku story has also been finalized and added to the wiki.  Sorry, but you guys were running in too many circles on it, so I filled in the small missing pieces and uploaded it.

http://wiki.zfgc.com/KOT:Deku
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on January 30, 2013, 04:46:29 pm
Yeah, the forest maze and the swamp have always been a bit vague in my mind too. Niek, don't you have a pretty clear idea? Can you lay out the whole forest maze/swamp/Kokori forest for us?

I think the idea of attacking the root system in caves to destroy fruiting bodies (mushrooms) that are blocking the way is really cool. Especially because the root system is the real mushroom, and the fruiting bodies are only part, so it's more accurate mycologically. My girlfriend is really into mushrooms, so I'm all about this !@#$% by association.

As for the Kokori Village, we probably shouldn't make it too long. We've already got lots of stuff before the first dungeon, and the player probablY just wants to get there already.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Starforsaken101 on January 30, 2013, 08:24:40 pm
I think the idea of attacking the root system in caves to destroy fruiting bodies (mushrooms) that are blocking the way is really cool. Especially because the root system is the real mushroom, and the fruiting bodies are only part, so it's more accurate mycologically. My girlfriend is really into mushrooms, so I'm all about this !@#$% by association.

Wat.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on January 30, 2013, 09:15:45 pm
Quote
My girlfriend is really into mushrooms, so I'm all about this !@#$% by association.

Oh ok.

On a related note, I agree that the village should be brief.  Lead the player through a few houses, read some diaries on the Kokiri tragedy and then find the Deku Tree remains?  Then maybe travel through that, which is FILLED with fungus and crap (being that it's a dead rotting tree) to get to the temple.  We could maybe even have the Deku Tree's incredibly weakened spirit speak to the player to guide them (and never actually revive it - just leave it as is).
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: thestig on January 30, 2013, 10:23:28 pm
Hey Max, I've had a couple of trips to Mushroom Mountain myself. I never saw you there though :(

/endtopichijack
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on February 04, 2013, 08:41:54 pm
Yeah, the forest maze and the swamp have always been a bit vague in my mind too. Niek, don't you have a pretty clear idea? Can you lay out the whole forest maze/swamp/Kokori forest for us?
Well, considering Blaze's topic. The view I have of it is that the Forest Maze is a part of the Deku Swamp that got turned into an illusion. Once the forest maze is cleared the illussion disappears. I think Blaze wanted to make a river shooting minigame that would replace the forest, which I think is pretty neat. I think that this river would be an offshoot of the river from River Valley and that the water of this offshoot might overflow and supply the swamp with water.

My idea that the entrance to Kokiri Forest is in the palace grounds, which was not accessible due to the palace being locked. I was thinking that the entrance is open as long as the palace is open. What I mean to say is that the player does not have to do the throne room events to get in Kokiri Forest. Although in the interaction with Maple it is hinted to the player to go there. The throne room with the King is just that the deku go back to the village and Link is granted permanent access to the palace. And the Butler might tell/show Link the entrance to Kokiri Forest.


I had an idea for the area of Kokiri Forest. I dont know if you guys ever played the board game Labyrinth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth_%28board_game%29). Maybe it would be possible that trees grow and shrink at random time intervals. And you would need to navigate through the forest with an ever changing path. Obtaining the boomerang would allow the player to force these growth/trees to shrink and open the path.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 05, 2013, 03:36:23 pm
So something like this?

(http://i.imgur.com/WhjoKGql.jpg)

I like the labyrinth idea. Using the boomerang to just stop trees from growing is a bit peculiar, but maybe kinda like in oracle of ages when those fairies were messing with the forest? You would have to boomerang Kokori spirits to get them to make the woods hold still.

Also, one thing we should consider is that if you can just bypass solving the Deku people's problems, the butler couldn't give you the boomerang, so you could get stuck in the forest?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 05, 2013, 03:41:47 pm
The trees could grow or shrink by activating a switch on the trees themselves with the boomerang.  We could also block the entrance to the forest with one of these trees (definitely don't want the player to skip the Deku Palace)
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 05, 2013, 03:52:40 pm
I thought of a switch on the trees too, but that seems frightfully artificial. I mean, the trees are organic, so I feel like switches don't work too well...

Also, I just want to say that it'd be REALLY cool if we could have Link climbing the trees and branches, and you'd have to get some trees to grow so he could reach an area, then you would shrink that or other trees so move along. Or you could depend on the spirit to do the growing/shrinking and you just have to time it.

Also, the boomerang doesn't have to control the growing/shrinking mechanic directly. We could have the growing mechanic, and you would need the boomerang along with it. For example, you might need to climb a grown tree to be able to hit a switch with the boomerang that opens a gate, or you need to wait for a tree to grow so you can reach a pine cone or fruit in it that you need to hold down a switch or feed a monkey or something.

I don't feel like the boomerang makes much sense for controlling the trees directly, though.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 05, 2013, 04:42:27 pm
Well, considering we'll have wall climbing, we're going to have the climbing animation so we might as well do it that.  The boomerang could also be used to cut down weaker or dead trees.

Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on February 05, 2013, 05:29:41 pm
So something like this?

(http://i.imgur.com/WhjoKGql.jpg)

Yes something like that.

The idea I had is that if you hit the growth with the boomerang than the growth would retreat and you probably see a dizzy Kokiri Spirit with stars above its head. But that could still be worked. And I was also thinking that the boomerang is obtained in the Kokiri Forest, so that the player at least has to deal with the ever changing forest, because afterwards it would be easy to make you own path with the boomerang.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 06, 2013, 02:42:25 pm
Well, let's continue on for an overview of the area.

We know now that the player will use the boomerang to navigate the forest by raising and lowering trees.  Eventually we come to the Kokiri Ruins.  What should happen here?  How should we convey the tragedy of the Kokiri to the player?

Also, this area should be brief.  We've taken enough of the player's time with the swamp and I'm sure they'll want to just get to the dungeon already.  We can use the area for sidequests, but the main storyline sequence here shouldn't be long.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 06, 2013, 05:42:19 pm
I agree about the brevity. That's one reason I was a bit confused about the Kokori forest/swamp thing, I kinda though they were like one.

Maybe we can combine some of the Kokori forest and ruins, so that it's quicker. And of course, still allow for optional areas.

I'm thinking the ruins will have some sort of puzzle. There is something blocking the way to the Deku Tree, and you need to do things in the ruined houses to get past. I'm thinking we already used the "sever the roots to destroy the aboveground blockade" thing already with the Deku, so probably not that, but a similar thing. Perhaps Skulltulas have spun a large web blocking the way to the deku tree, and Link has to get to the corners to cut it down? Or it could be as simple as, there are four torches in the ruined houses, you have to light all four and the blockade disappears.

But I'm thinking that having the ruined houses will be enough to tell you the Kokori are gone, and have been for a while. I think having Link find pages of a journal could work well too, say there are 3 or 4 pages of a Kokori girl's journal in the ruins. Reading them would give the player a more concrete idea of what happened, and perhaps returning lost pages to the body of the journal could be a small sidequest that gives something like 20 or 50 rupees.

Or we could involve Maple again, she could fly by Link and outright tell him that children used to live in these houses, but after the Deku tree was uprooted in the war, they disappeared.

Once Link solves the puzzle and gets into the Deku tree area, he finds that it's uprooted, and he enters the first dungeon.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on February 06, 2013, 05:53:42 pm
I was thinking that in this place we have Link meet the ancient hero for the first time. Link could overhear the Hero and Maple talking. Meaning that the hero is a bit of reminiscing about the past when the deku tree was alive. At the end he tells Maple where the entrance to the dungeon is. Maple flies inside there and the hero disappears.

For the rest I think the ruins show a bit of the story and I think Max's diary idea is good. And maybe we have some place that Link can look at walls and see some drawings faded or otherwise. However these are optional and more for decoration.

Then we also have Tilo. I think that right before Link enters the dungeon he is halted by Tilo who taunts him races inside the dungeon and locks the door with one final tree barrier that Link will have to remove with the boomerang.

Inside the dungeon Link will have to deal with Tilo a number of times. And one time Link will enter a room where he will see Maple again for the last time untill we reach the Zora area or something. Tilo will also be here and she springs a trap on the unsuspecting Maple, which rockets her out of the dungeon with a huge "WHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!". If Link manages to fall for the same trap he will also be thrown outside the dungeon and he will have to enter again.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 06, 2013, 06:16:28 pm
I actually like the idea of combining the forest and ruins.  It'll make for some interesting use of the currently known thieving abilities.  Expanding on Max's idea of the torches, some of the torches could be in places that would be unreachable without some thief movements.  Each torch could release a pesticide into the air that will get rid of some bugs or something blocking the way.

As Link approaches the Deku Tree, we could bring the ancient hero encounter in that Niek mentioned.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 06, 2013, 09:56:33 pm
So probably how it will flow is that when Link walks into the ruins, he will see Maple with a hazy, suspicious looking figure, the Hero's Shade, and we'll overhear the Hero saying that this place was once so full of life, and saying that Maple can find the cog if she goes North (where the Deku Tree Remains are). The Shade will disappear and Maple will fly away.

Link will then go through the Kokori ruins to try to find a way to get past the big blockade.


Also, I realized we should probably have the puzzle in the Kokori Ruins involve the Kokori spirits. I feel like it might be the most logically easy solution, like, make the most sense.

There's a barrier, perhaps an overgrown tree or bush, blocking the path to the deku tree.

A) You have the solve puzzles to acquire 3-4 pages of the kokori's journal. Returning the pages to the diary will appease the spirit and she will open the path to the deku tree.

B) 3-4 spirits will be in the woods, each with their own puzzles. When Link solves the puzzles, the spirits will appear and fix the blockade so Link can get to the deku tree. Puzzles could be a throwback to OoT, could be cool. Like, you've gotta help a spirit move the rocks out of Mido's yard, or you've gotta return an old, rusted sword to its chest in the middle of the rolling rock maze or something.

Personally, I think A would probably flow better.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 07, 2013, 05:02:57 pm
I kind of like the later, actually!  We could use it to show how screwed up some of the Kokiri Spirits have become.  Imagine a spirit that for whatever reason REALLY wants the old Kokiri Sword returned to the chest.  We could have him/her freaking the !@#$% out about it.

"THE SWORD!! THE SWORD!! PUT IT BACK!!!" 

And then suddenly they're calm when the puzzle is completed.  The journal could also become one of these puzzles.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on February 07, 2013, 05:17:24 pm
I think option B also might be the better solution. For the journal I think it is better to have it optional. Back story is really great to have, however the main story should not be cluttered with it. Journals and wall paintings can offer great detail in backstory, but it can slow down the pace of the main story. So I think these things should be optional if the player desires to look at them though.

You could make the journal pages a sidequest. In addition we have already accepted the character Tilo, whome you will meet at the entrance of the dungeon and makes your life miserable all throughout the dungeon.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 07, 2013, 05:27:41 pm
Alright, just summarizing what we have so far:

Link will enter the Forest/Ruins and have to navigate the old village by climbing buildings, overcoming obstacles/enemies and using the boomerang to move trees.  On his way he'll overhear Maple talking to the Hero's Shade about the cog and the Deku Tree.  With this information, he'll find the path to the tree blocked.  As he investigates the forest further, he'll come across 4 spirits, each desperately wanting a different favor.  By completing all 4, the spirits will be calmed and will open the way to the Deku Tree.

Puzzle 1: Find the old Kokiri Sword and place it in its chest.
Puzzle 2: ???
Puzzle 3: ???
Puzzle 4: ???
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on February 07, 2013, 05:40:18 pm
I think appeasing the Kokiri Spirits should be before the Hero.

The Hero is also reminiscing and not just talk about the cog. Which shows that he is rather old.

To get into the dungeon I think we should be introducing Tilo. Or do you want to scrap her.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 07, 2013, 05:53:24 pm
When I designed Tilo, I had her in mind only for the temple itself.  Definitely not scrapping her, I just didn't consider her for this area.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 07, 2013, 07:46:52 pm
Okay, I think if we're having spirits agitated about needing things done, then we should carry that over to Tilo, where she berates and gives Link trouble because she wants something specific in the temple done, then calms down once Link has done that thing (defeated the boss, presumably.)

Niek, I was thinking that the introduction of the Hero should be before the spirits because in his introduction, he tells Maple (and Link, overhearing it) where they're headed: toward the Deku tree. This will give the player a sense of direction, I know I want to go this way but it's blocked. Instead of, hmm, there's a blocked road here. I should unblock it to advance the plot... and then find out the motivation for overcoming the obstacle AFTER overcoming it.

1. Return the Kokori sword (we could have the spirit allude to the fact that somebody took it out to fend of Ganon, inspired by the Hero of Time. Obviously just a vague allusion, though.)

2. I was thinking have a spirit want the rocks of grass cleared out from in front of Mido's house, just like how the Kokori in OoT was tasked. Like they never got all the rocks cleared so they're anal about it in death.

3. Maybe include a reference to how OoT Link needed a shield to get in to see the Deku Tree also? Like, KoT Link would need to find a shield in the rubble of the shop or something?

4. There's also the simple, defeat all these enemies that are inhabiting my old house. You don't want Deku Baba slobbering all over where your bed used to be before your village was destroyed.


I was also thinking that with returning the sword, it would be fun to do an OoT/Indiana Jones reference, where you've gotta pick up this sword (like the fake master swords in ALTTP) and carry it to the chest in the woods. Then after you replace it, that bolder from OoT comes crashing through and you've gotta outrun it! Failure would result in getting smashed would result in having to restart and carry the sword to the chest again.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 07, 2013, 08:28:20 pm
Hero encounter definitely should happen first, otherwise there's no reason for the player to remove the barrier.

Speaking of which, what IS the barrier anyway?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 09, 2013, 03:23:06 pm
Yeah, I was thinking some kind of branches twisted up that recede into the ground when they go away.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 09, 2013, 06:25:27 pm
We should have the 4 spirits you save gather at the obstacle and play a Saria's Song quartet to get rid of the branches
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on February 09, 2013, 09:06:17 pm
Hero encounter definitely should happen first, otherwise there's no reason for the player to remove the barrier.
I don't that is right. As you said yourself. We have kept the player already rather busy with the tutorial and 5 deku missions and later the the deku palace part. If the player first has to navigate Kokiri Forest and then still has to deal with 4 Kokiri Spirit jobs, it will take even more time. So I was more thinking of having 2 or 3 spirits before the Hero encounter and then 2 or 3 after.

Not to mention we can also have some mandatory Spirit encounters after the dungeon where Link has to get out of Kokiri Forest.

1. Return the Kokori sword (we could have the spirit allude to the fact that somebody took it out to fend of Ganon, inspired by the Hero of Time. Obviously just a vague allusion, though.)

2. I was thinking have a spirit want the rocks of grass cleared out from in front of Mido's house, just like how the Kokori in OoT was tasked. Like they never got all the rocks cleared so they're anal about it in death.

3. Maybe include a reference to how OoT Link needed a shield to get in to see the Deku Tree also? Like, KoT Link would need to find a shield in the rubble of the shop or something?

4. There's also the simple, defeat all these enemies that are inhabiting my old house. You don't want Deku Baba slobbering all over where your bed used to be before your village was destroyed.
I'm sorry but I am not really liking this idea for two reasons. The first is that it is to big a fanboy reference to OOT. It kinda says "Hey I am making a fangame and I put situations from OOT in my game with some slight adaptations." If you want to make a reference to OOT do it subtle. As including Kokiri and a dead Deku Tree already is. However this just screams uninspired fangame to me. I'm sorry. The second reason is that we had the same setup in the Deku Village already. We have a barrier we can't get through, but there are several NPC's with jobs in the neighborhood that will make the barrier go away if I go look for them. I think it is a bit to soon for such a repetition in the narative. I think the spirit encounters should flow more naturally as you should chase or somehow capture them.


When I designed Tilo, I had her in mind only for the temple itself.  Definitely not scrapping her, I just didn't consider her for this area.
Well, I kinda remember something that she was looking for some treasure she lost in the dungeon once. However I took a look at the wiki and it is not up there. Apparantly that got scrapped. I guess she is just a gameplay mechanic for the dungeon now.

However if you still consider making her part of the narative, which I think is great, then I think a small encounter would be necessary before Link enters the dungeon. First it would show the player that Tilo is a Kokiri Spirit from the Forest and not a part of the furniture of the dungeon. Second you would need less dialog/text explaining here precense. Before she enters the dungeon you could have here exclaim "That witch! She can't have my treasure." and in the vault she would say "My doll!" (or whatever else is her treasure). For the rest the interaction doesn't really need more dialog. Just her animation and thus actions would tell her story. This would be a classic case of "Show. Don't tell."
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 12, 2013, 04:04:28 pm
I disagree about a couple points, but you bring up some pretty good things.

The Kokori village is too long, and yeah, DEFINITELY is just a big repeat of the structure of the Deku village. However, we can convey a lot of the world's lore in this area, and it would be a shame to miss out on that.

What I'm thinking now is that we should make most of the quests here optional. If you walk into the area, most people will recognize it as a ruined, overgrown Kokori village, because we've all played OoT. That will be enough to get the point across of hey, the Kokori were here but died off.

But it'd be really cool to still have more detail, like, during his quest for the triforce before, Ganon uprooted the Deku tree. Then monsters started moving in on the area, and the Kokori died off, etc.

The main points for the current-day plot of KoT, however, are given through the interaction between the Hero's Shade and Maple. So why don't we have it so when Link walks into the area, he sees them, and then can proceed directly into the temple after Maple. If the player wants to, they can check the village ruins out and find some journal pages giving details, solve a puzzle to find the Kokori sword which might be a trading quest item, etc.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 12, 2013, 04:16:03 pm
That could work actually, we could have the player follow Maple's tracks into the temple.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Zaeranos on February 12, 2013, 07:03:54 pm
May I point out that we don't have to put all the lore in the story before the dungeon. In most Zelda games Link is put back at the entrance. If you make the map be that Link cannot go the same way back as he came when leaving Kokiri Forest, you could add some of the Kokiri story after the dungeon.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 12, 2013, 09:37:11 pm
Eeehh, we could do that, I suppose. But dungeons are always an area resolution. It's kinda unfulfilling to say okay, you're in a random area that has a dungeon. Go through this dungeon, beat the boss. Okay, NOW you can learn that the area you're in has a story to it. Now that you have a story and possible connection to the area... buh bye!

Lots of times story stuff happens after Link completes a dungeon, but it's usually "oh! Now this area's problems are solved!", and there's a really good reason that it's that way. I'm sticking to my opinion that Link can walk through the Kokori village and explore as much or as little as the player wants. That way, the overall plot still flows really nicely:
Deku have problems!
Link helps them with smaller ones
Witnesses them addressing their big problem
Goes to the temple and connects this area with the game's conflict (through Maple/the Hero)
Resolves multiple things on beating the temple (Maple doesn't get this cog, the spores stop spreading)

Then on his way back through the Deku village, Link will see that his work in the dungeon helped stop the spores that were affecting the Deku, etc.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 18, 2013, 04:11:18 pm
Alright, lemme make a summary of what we have so far:

1. Link enters the forest and navigates it to the Kokiri Village.
2. Link will find the Hero conversing with Maple and after eavesdropping will learn that Maple is going to the temple.  The two then head about their business.
3(?). Link tracks down Maple, maybe by following a trail of a leaked potion she was carrying?
4. Link is lead to the Deku Tree remains, which he uses as the path into the temple
5. <insert temple mumbo jumbo here>
6. Swamp issue is resolved?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 19, 2013, 01:42:04 am
Yup, sounds good!

I dunno if it'll even be necessary to provide the player clues as to where Maple went, it might just be good enough to see her head north or wherever and go that general direction, and the player is bound to find the area. We don't want to take away too much exploring.

Also, I know we're gonna have Maple oppose Link more directly later, like fight him somehow, but do we want anything like that in the forest/swamp area? So that Link fights Maple somehow in all four areas? I could even be something as simple as, she allows seem swamp monsters to get into the area where they are and she leaves.
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 19, 2013, 04:38:05 am
Maybe he can fight her after the temple?  Kinda like, "oh screw you, you beat me to the cog so ima kick your ass!"
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: Max. on February 19, 2013, 03:14:32 pm
Yeah, that's one possibility.

The others I can think of are 1) not fighting her until the Goron area
2) fighting her somewhere in the Deku village or swamp.

Dunno what I think is best.



Anyway, shall we move onto the Zora?
Title: Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
Post by: MG-Zero on February 19, 2013, 03:27:07 pm
Yes, I'd say we have enough covered here to move on.  I'll sticky this and prepare it for the wiki tonight.  If there are further comments, please feel free to leave them here!

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