ZFGC
General => Other Discussion => Boards => Archive => Debates => Topic started by: Cassyblanca on October 20, 2008, 12:05:46 am
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Since certain people only like showing and/or listening to one side of every story, I'm here to post the other side of this one.
Proposition 8, titled "Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry," is a proposition to amend the constitution of the State of California that would cause same-sex marriages to no longer be recognized as valid within the State of California, and would prevent further same-sex marriages from occurring in said state.
Many people believe that marriage should be solely a religious issue, and this proposition would be but one step on the path to making it as such. Although there are legal benefits to marriage, these are mostly issues that should relate to a man and a woman, and help with issues such as raising children.
I don't hold myself to a certain religious system, though I do identify myself as a follower of Christ, but I see certain things from a social standpoint as being morally wrong. Yes, a homosexual couple can have children, should they choose to adopt (or, in the case of a female-female relationship, if they should choose the route of getting a sperm donor), but what of the child as he/she is being raised?
I don't want to even begin to fathom the repercussions the kid would suffer for the fact that his/her parents are of the same sex. Abuse from peers, particularly in a school environment, can be very damaging to a child, can harm his/her self-esteem, and is a strong background influence on mental issues the child may face, such as depression.
Although we would like to believe that this is a kind, forgiving, and perfect world, where everybody can be equal, regardless of who their parents are, the fact is that it is not, and the fact is that a strong impression of how a child is will be judged by the child's parents. If a child is raised by two homosexual parents, kids will naturally begin to think that the child is a homosexual, an issue which may actually make a child feel homosexual, due to confusion and a lack of self-esteem and self-pride that would allow that child to otherwise rise up against the insults of his/her peers.
Vote what you will, but here's somewhere to discuss the "yes" side of Proposition 8.
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I don't want to even begin to fathom the repercussions the kid would suffer for the fact that his/her parents are of the same sex. Abuse from peers, particularly in a school environment, can be very damaging to a child, can harm his/her self-esteem, and is a strong background influence on mental issues the child may face, such as depression.
Although we would like to believe that this is a kind, forgiving, and perfect world, where everybody can be equal, regardless of who their parents are, the fact is that it is not, and the fact is that a strong impression of how a child is will be judged by the child's parents.
Do you know this for certain? Have you yourself witnessed chiulren being made fun of for their parents? Hell, during my childhood, nobody ever brought up my parents even once, they wouldn't have any way to know about this. Even if they did, so what? Children are assholes anyways. They'll find any reason to make fun of other kids.
In Middle school, I was tormented the entire 3 years because in my 5th grade year book, when it asked "what do you want to be when you grow up?", I wrote "A Pokemon Master!". I was miserable, and wish I never wrote that. But what if I hadn't? They probably would have found some other stupid thing to make fun of me over.
Essentially, you could say the same thing about, say, Muslims raising a child here. A lot of children would make fun of this child and make him miserable. Should Muslims not be allowed to have children in America?
If a child is raised by two homosexual parents, kids will naturally begin to think that the child is a homosexual, an issue which may actually make a child feel homosexual, due to confusion and a lack of self-esteem and self-pride that would allow that child to otherwise rise up against the insults of his/her peers.
Yeah, that's a load of !@#$%. Naturally, they would likely teach the child positive values such as kindness to others, regardless of differences, and tolerance. There is a chance the child may indeed be homosexual, but that is not increased by having homosexual parents. Just as many homosexuals are born to nasty right-wing bible-thumpers as are to loving tolerant homes.
I'd also say that it's not unreasonable to say that parents who WANT a child would generally make for better parents than those who conceive by accident. Therefore, adoptive parents would, in general, make for better parents. Goodness knows, I wish I had same-sex parents more than the parents I have, who collectively know DICK about child-raising.
Edit: Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exPoH1JX0Q8
Also MiN, I keep seeing people asking about "irony" in these topics. May I ask you what they're referring to?
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I'm voting yes on it simply because I don't think it's right to teach children in school that it's alright for a boy to marry a boy, or a girl to marry a girl. Once it's law it WILL be taught in school too. There are more reasons, but I'm simply not going to go there...
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I'm voting yes on it simply because I don't think it's right to teach children in school that it's alright for a boy to marry a boy, or a girl to marry a girl. Once it's law it WILL be taught in school too. There are more reasons, but I'm simply not going to go there...
This; tho I don't live in Cali.
Once it's legally acceptable, it will be taught. Which sorry, but if you expect people to accept social differences, you need to accept everybody elses right to choose what they do and do not want their kids to be exposed to in public establishments.
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Also, posting an immature youtube video doesn't really validate anything you've said aliento. Other reasons I'm voting yes on it.
1. It's not NECESSARY. You've been gay for years... why do you HAVE to get married? All this does is simply flaunt it in people's faces even more then you already do with your parades and over all flamboyantness.
2. It's not RIGHT. You are not born gay... There is not a gayness gene. It's a choice... A very wrong one (in my eyes at least...) <-- Also, don't !@#$% flame me for this... I have a right to my own opinions, !@#$%!
3. It's a BASTARIZATION. Call me a bible thumper if you want, when I never go to church, or read the bible... I know what's right, and I know what's wrong. I personally have nothing against gay people, but I think that legalizing a bastardization of the sanctity of marriage is a step in the WRONG way... But I guess this is unavoidable in the last days of existence.
I'm fucken voting Yes. That is all...
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1. It's not NECESSARY. You've been gay for years... why do you HAVE to get married? All this does is simply flaunt it in people's faces even more then you already do with your parades and over all flamboyantness.
You're straight. You have been for years... why do you HAVE to get married? All this does is simply flaunts it in people's faces even more than you already have been for the entire history of exclusively straight marriage.
2. It's not RIGHT. You are not born gay... There is not a gayness gene. It's a choice... A very wrong one (in my eyes at least...) <-- Also, don't !@#$% flame me for this... I have a right to my own opinions, !@#$%!
Some people are born with a predisposition towards being gay. That's a fact. I'm not going to say anything more than that.
3. It's a BASTARIZATION. Call me a bible thumper if you want, when I never go to church, or read the bible... I know what's right, and I know what's wrong. I personally have nothing against gay people, but I think that legalizing a bastardization of the sanctity of marriage is a step in the WRONG way... But I guess this is unavoidable in the last days of existence.
I wish you had put another "in my eyes at least" in here. "I know what's right, and I know what's wrong" is an entirely false statement. You don't know what's right or wrong. You are not the judge of the world. You do know what you feel is right or wrong. Since you feel it's wrong, you should vote Yes, but I felt the distinction between fact and opinion was important to make clear.
Not that it matters, but I should add that I am straight, just so we're not confused about my agenda. I just don't see how someone can logically conclude that the state has any right to decide the fate of same-sex marriage.
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Minalien, what the hell does anything in your post have to do with why same-sex couples shouldn't get the same legal rights as opposite sex couples? Allowing or disallowing same-sex couples to marry has nothing to do with whether or not they can adopt or raise children.
Also, addressing everyone: all this right-or-wrong business is !@#$%—Do you think it's right that you can tell other people how to live their lives?
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Isn't the point of voting to begin with to let people use their opinions/moral convictions/decision making skills to determine if they want something to be (or not be)? >_>;; Honestly I think all going back and forth over it does is make people feel stronger AGAINST the thing people fight hard to get put into place.
I don't think trying to push people into voting a certain way works. It's really up to YOU; the voter to decide what YOU in YOUR own mind is right or wrong.
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I don't think trying to push people into voting a certain way works. It's really up to YOU; the voter to decide what YOU in YOUR own mind is right or wrong.
Like I said, DJ (and by that I meant everyone) should vote how he wants. I just wanted to put forth the comment that he shouldn't say he's right and leave it at that.
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FYI, I did mean all what I posted in my eyes. Obviously I don't know what's TRULY right, and wrong...
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If you vote 'Yes' you hate gays.
It's a fact.
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Also, addressing everyone, STFU NOOB
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Once it's law it WILL be taught in school too.
Uh, what? Since when are morals of any type taught in school? There is no "RIGHT AND WRONGS 101" in public high schools. Schools teach facts.
FYI, I did mean all what I posted in my eyes. Obviously I don't know what's TRULY right, and wrong...
Well, there is nothing that's actually right or actually wrong. It's all a matter of perspective :P.
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Also, addressing everyone, STFU NOOB
NO U
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Once it's law it WILL be taught in school too.
Uh, what? Since when are morals of any type taught in school? There is no "RIGHT AND WRONGS 101" in public high schools. Schools teach facts.
Have you ever attended a public high school? Tell my grade 9 social studies teacher who said "Republicans are very bad people" (I'm not even from the States) that High Schools teach only fact.
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Once it's law it WILL be taught in school too.
Uh, what? Since when are morals of any type taught in school? There is no "RIGHT AND WRONGS 101" in public high schools. Schools teach facts.
Good god you're naiive. There's half-truths and lies all over the place in our education. All information given is inherently biased to some extent, as everyone has an opinion on everything.
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1. It's not NECESSARY. You've been gay for years... why do you HAVE to get married? All this does is simply flaunt it in people's faces even more then you already do with your parades and over all flamboyantness.
You're straight. You have been for years... why do you HAVE to get married? All this does is simply flaunts it in people's faces even more than you already have been for the entire history of exclusively straight marriage.
2. It's not RIGHT. You are not born gay... There is not a gayness gene. It's a choice... A very wrong one (in my eyes at least...) <-- Also, don't !@#$% flame me for this... I have a right to my own opinions, !@#$%!
Some people are born with a predisposition towards being gay. That's a fact. I'm not going to say anything more than that.
3. It's a BASTARIZATION. Call me a bible thumper if you want, when I never go to church, or read the bible... I know what's right, and I know what's wrong. I personally have nothing against gay people, but I think that legalizing a bastardization of the sanctity of marriage is a step in the WRONG way... But I guess this is unavoidable in the last days of existence.
I wish you had put another "in my eyes at least" in here. "I know what's right, and I know what's wrong" is an entirely false statement. You don't know what's right or wrong. You are not the judge of the world. You do know what you feel is right or wrong. Since you feel it's wrong, you should vote Yes, but I felt the distinction between fact and opinion was important to make clear.
Not that it matters, but I should add that I am straight, just so we're not confused about my agenda. I just don't see how someone can logically conclude that the state has any right to decide the fate of same-sex marriage.
This.
And one, clear point I would like to make DJ. Homosexuality is not a choice. There are people who commit suicide because they do not want to be homosexual, yet they are and they can never change that. It's harder and more complex than a simple choice. Do you think people in pre-modern times chose to be gay, which then resulted in death back then? Do you think people chose to be gay, even though they knew they would be imprisoned or tortured? (which was what happened after death was no longer a punishment for homosexuality, when I say torture I mean when they tried to "cure" homosexual people)
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There are people who commit suicide because they do not want to be homosexual, yet they are and they can never change that.
Once again, I don't agree. They probably suicide because the society doesn't accept them as much as they'd want to. You can't know what goes through their mind, though...
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There are people who commit suicide because they do not want to be homosexual, yet they are and they can never change that.
Once again, I don't agree. They probably suicide because the society doesn't accept them as much as they'd want to. You can't know what goes through their mind, though...
Of course, you cant tell what goes through anybody's mind. And therefore you cant say it is a choice to be homosexual. You cant see into their mind and see a choice being made.
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Then our two argument's are not valid. ;)
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They is quite a bit of evidence to suggest your sexuality, if not determined, is heavily influenced by the hormones you receive whilst in the womb and the affects this has on brain development. You may be able to control the way your fetal-brain develops, but the rest of the world clearly lacked your telekinetic powers ;)
Homosexuals, even very manly ones (and what is manlier than two muscle-bound naked guys?) also tend to perform better at tasks otherwise dubbed feminine. Ironically women and gay men tend to be, this is what studies have shown, worse at reading a map in order to get from point A to point B (and on weekends point C) than lesbians and straight men.
Combine this with the lasting influence early infant attachments have on a person...you have to wonder how much control people really have.
If sexuality is a choice, then it doesn't exist, because people must choose who they are attracted to on a conscious level, which anyone whose ever looked at a person ever knows we don't do, you don't see someone and decide they are attractive as much as see someone and the 'unconscious' part of your brain makes the decision for you based on partially-instinctive factors. Males who say other males are attractive but are straight are doing so consciously. If we decide, males would also choose when to get boners, and hell no can we do that (which is a shame, because dammit why do guys always get one at the end of tests?)...
Besides, why wouldn't a person want to be gay? Guys are so much easier than girls, they can't fake orgasm for one (except through a complex process involving a hose pipe), and they also tend to be easier to figure out ;)
I identify as straight but at the moment...I see relationships as pointless because I know I'd be useless in them, so might as well be asexual. Also if the right person were to come along I don't feel like it would matter if they were male or female...but yeah, t'ill I start making out with guys I'm gonna still say I'm straight.
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They is quite a bit of evidence to suggest your sexuality, if not determined, is heavily influenced by the hormones you receive whilst in the womb and the affects this has on brain development. You may be able to control the way your fetal-brain develops, but the rest of the world clearly lacked your telekinetic powers ;)
Homosexuals, even very manly ones (and what is manlier than two muscle-bound naked guys?) also tend to perform better at tasks otherwise dubbed feminine. Ironically women and gay men tend to be, this is what studies have shown, worse at reading a map in order to get from point A to point B (and on weekends point C) than lesbians and straight men.
Combine this with the lasting influence early infant attachments have on a person...you have to wonder how much control people really have.
If sexuality is a choice, then it doesn't exist, because people must choose who they are attracted to on a conscious level, which anyone whose ever looked at a person ever knows we don't do, you don't see someone and decide they are attractive as much as see someone and the 'unconscious' part of your brain makes the decision for you based on partially-instinctive factors. Males who say other males are attractive but are straight are doing so consciously. If we decide, males would also choose when to get boners, and hell no can we do that (which is a shame, because dammit why do guys always get one at the end of tests?)...
Besides, why wouldn't a person want to be gay? Guys are so much easier than girls, they can't fake orgasm for one (except through a complex process involving a hose pipe), and they also tend to be easier to figure out ;)
Haha. If I could choose, I would so choose girls. They are so much nicer than boys XD
But boys are sexier. :D
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(which is a shame, because dammit why do guys always get one at the end of tests?)...
Secsy teacha'? Rawr. :3
Seriously, that is annoying. I sometimes get one in school, too. >_> It's so weird... And no I don't find any of the girls in my class to be hawt. (Nor my teachers...)
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(which is a shame, because dammit why do guys always get one at the end of tests?)...
Secsy teacha'? Rawr. :3
Seriously, that is annoying. I sometimes get one in school, too. >_> It's so weird... And no I don't find any of the girls in my class to be hawt. (Nor my teachers...)
It's because you are so turned on by your own magnificent achievement at the end of the test.
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More like stressed. >_< I'm not like ''grrr I'm sure I scored pretty high... grrr'' o.O
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Probably something like the neurological effects of relief of stress are so similar to certain other ones (maybe the same or similar chemicals are released? I don't know) they trigger the same primitive response.
Wooh at throwing a big word in there to make myself sound clever!
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If the purpose of life of any organism is to reproduce and the organism does not reproduce asexually, then if any instance of that organism having a homosexual inclination is not normal - it should not happen. Homosexuality appears in large occurrence in organisms that are communally based as the individual does not always have to focus on its own survival.
In such cases, the focus can shift away from being well to feeling well which then permeates back to being well; e.g. being healthy, being happy, and how being happy can improve your health. In these settings, the survival of the group does not hinge on every individual engaging in an aspect of reproducing. Thus deviants can occur. Because the system itself permitted for these deviations to occur, it is natural - nature allowed it to happen.
If you haven't figure it out yet, humanity is not strictly normal. Incest, homosexuality, bisexuality, asexuality (not wanting to have sex), etc. exist and as long as they are in the minority humanity in itself should be fine. In an extreme case of total incest, diversity in the gene pool would reemerge over time. Bisexuality preserves some normality so it can exist in an extreme case so long as the non-natural aspect of it isn't expressed largely. Homosexuality and asexuality cannot really ever become a majority due to the lack of reproduction. Even if it were a trait that could be passed on, it wouldn't likely be knowingly passed on.
And this isn't even taking into account inter-sex people who are born as XXY due to genetic defects; what should they be into? Humanity based on mental contemplation to overrule base instinct and its reliance on a communal systems is inherently a flawed form of natural life, and it is this flaw which makes it exceptional in the study of all life.
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4sword, humans aren't the only animals that exhibit homosexuality…
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I know, that is why I said communal organisms, which basically implies monkeys, dogs, etc.
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Dammit, what is that species of gorilla again that spends most of it's time having sex and tends not to care if it's doing so with a male or female, showing they do so for pleasure?
I'm being serious by the way, I can't remember it's name, and it'd be a good example of what 4Sword was on about...
Just in case you were wondering, I'm not referring to humans here...
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Dammit, what is that species of gorilla again that spends most of it's time having sex and tends not to care if it's doing so with a male or female, showing they do so for pleasure?
I'm being serious by the way, I can't remember it's name, and it'd be a good example of what 4Sword was on about...
Just in case you were wondering, I'm not referring to humans here...
I was going to say humans before I read the subscript. xÂD
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You are talking about bonobos.
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Dammit, what is that species of gorilla again that spends most of it's time having sex and tends not to care if it's doing so with a male or female, showing they do so for pleasure?
I'm being serious by the way, I can't remember it's name, and it'd be a good example of what 4Sword was on about...
Just in case you were wondering, I'm not referring to humans here...
Bonobos. They're chimpanzees, by the way, not gorillas.
And yeah, they have sex for all kinds of reasons. And a lot of it too. It really is quite "natural".
There's also a lot of evidence of homosexuality in ancient civilisations as well - it was quite accepted in Greece and Rome, for instance, for soldiers to have relationships with one another, or for an older man to take a younger man as an "apprentice" and have a sexual relationship with him.
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or for an older man to take a younger man as an "apprentice" and have a sexual relationship with him.
...raping? o.O Crazy ass greeks :P.
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or for an older man to take a younger man as an "apprentice" and have a sexual relationship with him.
...raping? o.O Crazy ass greeks :P.
No, it was consensual - the younger man would volunteer for it knowing fully would it would intail.
They could always choose not to, but it was their custom. Seemed to work at least.