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Author Topic: Truth is not relative!  (Read 15783 times)

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Hoffy

Hero of Fire
Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2007, 01:09:41 am »
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Quote from: sjegtp on October 12, 2007, 09:38:44 pm
Quote from: Hoffy on October 11, 2007, 02:41:39 am
Obviously you've read Nineteen-Eighty Four :P.
Never heard of it. :P
HUWAAA? Really? It uses that exact example; "If I say that 2 + 2 = 5, then is this not the truth?"
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Hoffy.
Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2007, 04:04:42 am »
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Quote from: Hoffy on October 13, 2007, 01:09:41 am
Quote from: sjegtp on October 12, 2007, 09:38:44 pm
Quote from: Hoffy on October 11, 2007, 02:41:39 am
Obviously you've read Nineteen-Eighty Four :P.
Never heard of it. :P
HUWAAA? Really? It uses that exact example; "If I say that 2 + 2 = 5, then is this not the truth?"
I just said that because it's a pathetical and obvious mathematical error that people use to make fun of something (you know, at TV programs...). It wouldn't be impressive that I and that writer used the same example... <.<

[offtopic]
Though it reminds me of something funny... Once in a math test, about 5 people cheated in the test and copied the resolution of the question straight. The teacher, after correcting the test, was angry because all the 5 of them mistook "2+2=5"... then she was complaining because they cheated and didn't even notice such a stupid mistake, lol. it was hilarious XD
[/offtopic]
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2007, 04:11:19 am »
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Okay, about the chair thing... what if you classify things based on definition or purpose? For example, a chair is a thing you sit on. Sure, you can sit on a bed, but that's not it's purpose. This destroys almost all misunderstandings, that I can think of, anyway.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2007, 04:18:11 am »
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Quote from: BlueMonkey on October 13, 2007, 04:11:19 am
Okay, about the chair thing... what if you classify things based on definition or purpose? For example, a chair is a thing you sit on. Sure, you can sit on a bed, but that's not it's purpose. This destroys almost all misunderstandings, that I can think of, anyway.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Though there are things that have no purpose at all. :\
Also, if there's a purpose, that'd depend on the Society, not in Science... I mean, there is no physical evidence of the purpose of "a chair" (i.e. the purpose of a chair is only defined by society's common sense), therefore it's still subjective.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2007, 04:25:07 am »
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Science doesn't always solve everything. Since we invented the chair (as in the race, not this generation), we should have a definition based on the original need, or an updated need for it that's really, really important.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2007, 08:32:52 am »
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One of the criticisms of the Memetic theory is "Lack of philosophical appeal", which is strange because to me the Theory sounds very sound. Okay, Memetics are more about behavioural Psychology (despite the term being coined by an Evolutionary Biologist), and Psychology isn't a real Science either (Don't get me started on why, so much non-falsifiable evidence...), but this is still...
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2007, 01:31:41 pm »
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That's probably because Memetics only applies to life beings, and it applies differently depending on the life being. For instance, although we are able to tell a chair from a table because of a meme, another animal probably can't. The definitions we set to things differ even in other human languages; it's like the snow example: in English there's only 1 word for it, while in Inuit there are hundreds of words. At the same time, Scientists are able to call snow, ice and clouds "water", because they are all made of H2O.

So well, something can't be completely "true" when it depends on the language or a meme. Therefore it's relative again.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2007, 09:49:53 pm »
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I agree with the TheDarkJay. While truth may be difficult, or even near impossible to find, it is objective, at least as far as I know.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2007, 02:47:47 am »
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Whether the truth is relative or not is relati-
Oh snap.
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Quote from: TheDarkJay on June 25, 2009, 11:28:56 pm
And now after years of mocking him the pretending he played a massive part in our lives when really we couldn't care less just to ease our consciounse over said mocking healing can begin <_<

It's Steve Irwin all over again.
Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2007, 06:34:32 am »
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Truth IS relative.

While standard thinking has always held that there is an object, and an observer, and to properly understand the object the observer must view it objectively, modern evidence often suggests a slightly different approach.

On the quantum level, it is now believed by many that location becomes a nonentity. Meaning that information is distributed nonlocally.

And there has been a substantial amount of research in recent years to show that not only can someone's perceptions affect how they PERCEIVE the results of an expiriment, but the results themselves.

If that is true, then truly seperating object from observer becomes impossible. Strict objectivity becomes impossible.



DarkJay, I am largely in agreement with your opinion of organized religion...but I disagree with your view on belief in god in general. Yes, religion can be dangerous, but belief in a higher power is not neccessarily the same thing as religion, or even close to the same thing. Religion implies a strict set of rules, teachings, and doctrines. Often fallacious ones. And because these teachings vary from religion to religion, belief in the form of religion causes tension between people, often lethal tension. But belief itself does not neccessarily conform to such standards. And because of this, belief itself does not have to be a dividing force. I hate to use a movie quote to illustrate my point, but in this case I think it's fitting: "Religion divides people...belief in SOMETHING unites them".
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 06:43:54 am by legendarylugi »
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Mamoruanime

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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2007, 06:44:41 am »
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hmm... I have a theory on relativity, actually...

E = MC^2


<_< OKAY sorry I'm being an ass, and I had to do that...

lol but in all seriousness, after reading all of these posts, I dunno. some science and me dont get along. Like for example, I dont like when someone says that my computer in front of me may not really exist, when it does, in fact, exist in front of me lol... but a lot of this makes some sense, lol... Question is though; should there be a direct separation between "Truth" and "Fact"? If there were (or is) a direct separation, it would definitely make sense that truth is relative... *runs*
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2007, 09:23:30 am »
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If you ask me, truth is what is true.
Therefore if a person thinks truth is relative, it is true that their opinion is that it is relative. But that doesn't make the statement "Truth is relative" any truer.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2007, 09:36:57 am »
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so many posts here are way beside the actual topic
morals? symbolism? different topics...

in dictionary.com we are looking at this definition (direct)
2.   conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3.   a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths.
mostly number 3, which says its a verified and indisputable fact
you cannot add relative to this, and bring in relativity !@#$%
you cannot add symbolism and say some great thinker had a different opinion
truth is by definition a verified and indisputable fact, wether it exists or not
the end.
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My Child Is Student of The Month at Neverland Ranch!
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2007, 11:31:35 am »
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Quote from: TheDarkJay on October 10, 2007, 04:36:10 pm
Okay, I will now !@#$% a lot of people off with this: I really dislike People that say all truth is relative. I've had a huge debate (argument) with my RE teacher over this.

Truth is not relative. Truth is fact, fact is always fact, no matter how many people disagree. Opinions are relative, but opinions are not truth, they are not fact.

If I honestly believe and accept as truth that they is no chair (when everyone else believes and accepts as truth they is), I will not fall through the air if I try to sit down on what I believe not to be their, and I'm damn not stupid enough to try. That will only work if you are a looney toons character.

This may seem like an extreme example, but it does make sense and the more you think about it the less extreme it becomes.

Now commence your scientific attempts to disprove me, with no "It's wrong because I feel in my heart it's wrong"...that is what sparked off this rant in the first place.

you will fall through that chair if your brain is completely !@#$%
for example, if you're immensly high on LSD, such things could happen

i'm quite sure that you could end up seeing one truth while other's see another

the chair most likely is there, thinking normally, but what if what everyone else is seeing isn't the real truth
it may be a collective truth to everyone else, but in fact, we're all in some made up computer world that haxors our brain and so its not all real anyway, which is based in yet another "real" world

and so on >_<

in fact, there's a film you may heard of that's based on this sort of thing
it's called the matrix
:x


and i've probably gone and said a load of stuff thats already said, but i dont want to go and read 3 pages of weirdness D:
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 10:25:14 pm by hawthorneluke »
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この世に悪があるとすれば、それは人の心だ
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2007, 05:06:36 pm »
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Quote from: Mamoruanime on October 14, 2007, 06:44:41 am
Like for example, I dont like when someone says that my computer in front of me may not really exist, when it does, in fact, exist in front of me lol...
(As I said before)
Philosophically speaking, you can doubt the existence of the computer, but when it comes to common sense, it's stupid to say that it doesn't exist.
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BuffaloBurgers

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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2007, 06:08:30 pm »
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2007, 09:16:32 pm »
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Quote from: hawthorneluke on October 14, 2007, 11:31:35 am
Quote from: TheDarkJay on October 10, 2007, 04:36:10 pm
Okay, I will now !@#$% a lot of people off with this: I really dislike People that say all truth is relative. I've had a huge debate (argument) with my RE teacher over this.

Truth is not relative. Truth is fact, fact is always fact, no matter how many people disagree. Opinions are relative, but opinions are not truth, they are not fact.

If I honestly believe and accept as truth that they is no chair (when everyone else believes and accepts as truth they is), I will not fall through the air if I try to sit down on what I believe not to be their, and I'm damn not stupid enough to try. That will only work if you are a looney toons character.

This may seem like an extreme example, but it does make sense and the more you think about it the less extreme it becomes.

Now commence your scientific attempts to disprove me, with no "It's wrong because I feel in my heart it's wrong"...that is what sparked off this rant in the first place.

you will fall through that chair if your brain is completely !@#$%
for example, if you're immensly high on LDS, such things could happen

i'm quite sure that you could end up seeing one truth while other's see another

the chair most likely is there, thinking normally, but what if what everyone else is seeing isn't the real truth
it may be a collective truth to everyone else, but in fact, we're all in some made up computer world that haxors our brain and so its not all real anyway, which is based in yet another "real" world

and so on >_<

in fact, there's a film you may heard of that's based on this sort of thing
it's called the matrix
:x


and i've probably gone and said a load of stuff thats already said, but i dont want to go and read 3 pages of weirdness D:
LOL "High on LDS".

Damn Mormons.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2007, 10:24:49 pm »
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damn typos D:
LSD* >_<
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2007, 01:25:39 am »
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But if truth isn't relative, then I can't say I didn't eat the hamburger.  When some one else did eat the hamburger, but not me.  Making it true, but not really true?

And if it's not then why should I believe any of this?
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Retro
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2007, 02:56:57 am »
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Quote from: Retro on October 15, 2007, 01:25:39 am
But if truth isn't relative, then I can't say I didn't eat the hamburger.  When some one else did eat the hamburger, but not me.  Making it true, but not really true?
The sentence you said can have multiple interpretations. You didn't say when you ate it, and you didn't specify what sort of hamburger, or what you consider a hamburger (i.e. what you call a hamburger could be considered, for instance, a common sandwich by another person).

Quote from: Retro on October 15, 2007, 01:25:39 am
And if it's not then why should I believe any of this?
Well... what we're saying is not truth, you believe it if you want and if you understand the theory. What is more, the theory is also relative. :P
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