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Author Topic: Dungeon Design, Overworld Design, Making things not arbitrary  (Read 7091 times)

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Dungeon Design, Overworld Design, Making things ...
« on: August 13, 2015, 06:03:53 pm »
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Hello all. Its been a while since i have posted here, but with summer winding down and school coming closer i have noticed a lot of free time i have spending on a game that I usually am on and off coding. What i have noticed for a big pause in my game is im not really sure where to go. I have a checklist, and the only things on it now are large things. I'm stuck either turning the overworld from a skeleton to populated, or starting dungeon creation. Both of these have gotten me thinking, and i started looking in to how those two are actually done. A few years ago, i assumed overworlds were a lot more simple then they are. I have the skeleton down. I have all the caves and dungeon entrances and water made. But it just feels big and empty and i know randomly placing bushes and enemies would not help. For dungeons, they are very very complex at the core, and not just random rooms looking for keys. So i came here seeking advice to those who have probably studied these two points for their own games or others. Im looking for advice to some very vague questions, or to just start a discussion on what makes an overworld or a dungeon a zelda feeling overworld or dungeon. what does it need to have? how do you populate an overworld so people would enjoy exploring it? How do you know the balance between a dungeon being too linear or too vague?
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Re: Dungeon Design, Overworld Design, Making thi...
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 07:51:12 pm »
  • It's just Max.
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So something I've been trying to figure out, I recently got a dungeon map and went through a handful of dungeons from Minish Cap, and they were MUCH more linear than you'd think.

The first dungeon, deep wood shrine, I'd need to look at my notes to be sure, but I think there were two places where you could take a "wrong turn"- basically going off the linear route designed to get you through. Usually, the more obvious way to go is the right path, but if you took the wrong door (one off in a corner or something), you can only go one or two rooms before you see it's a dead end, and backtracking is very minimal. This gives you an illusion of choice without punishing the player for choosing incorrectly.

What I don't get- did the temple of droplets, the ice dungeon, feel too easy to anyone? Did it feel linear or hand-holdy? I looked over the map a few times and it is literally impossible the go the wrong way. You never have the opportunity to go off the linear path. Granted, it's not a straight line, it twists around itself a little hand has multiple floors, but when you come into a room, there is only one way you can go forward from there.

Anyway, shorter summary- for dungeons, a large amount of linearity might actually be a good thing, but it's important to give the illusion that the player has choices and is in a confusing labyrinth, without actually allowing them to deviate far from the linear path.

I should note, however, that older games (and I've just looked at 2D games), often have less linear dungeons, and linearity decrease is a way to make later dungeons more difficult/intimidating.

Its a great exercise to pull up a dungeon map and a walkthrough and draw the path in, have an overview of how the player will move through the dungeon.
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Miles07

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Re: Dungeon Design, Overworld Design, Making thi...
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 10:38:50 pm »
  • Long live the Chaos!!
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What Max said.

The Original Legend of Zelda had the labyrinths, which is the pinnacle of nonlinearity in this series in terms of dungeon design. While there is an "optimized" route, the player could choose any path (or discover new ones via bombing walls) to get to the Triforce Piece, and sometimes they even end up missing the dungeon's tool or skip several rooms to get there.
Of course, another point about that game is that keys could be shared across dungeons, so those extra keys you saved by having a more optimized route actually might help you in the next dungeon. Sadly, after the NES days, this is no longer the way Zelda games are played.
Also, you could buy keys from overworld merchants, which can be used in the dungeons. This is good if your "optimized route" was suddenly not very optimal, as you found yourself out of keys in the middle of a dungeon, and rather than go to another dungeon to collect more keys, you could buy one or two. This is also no longer how Zelda dungeons are solved nowadays.
An important point is that the older dungeons didn't have the theming that modern-day dungeons do. There were no "water temples" or "fire dungeons", each with its own set of gimmicks and a dungeon tool that fits. In this case, the Zelda games since after the NES days have opted for linearity in three parts:

Part one was to get the player from the front door to the dungeon tool.
Part two is a short section where the player learns how to use the dungeon tool, and then might need to backtrack with it to solve puzzles he/she has had to pass up during part one.
Part three starts when the player finds that passed-up puzzle that allows them access towards the dungeon boss.

All three parts scream "linear".

Just some words to think on when designing your dungeon.
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Re: Dungeon Design, Overworld Design, Making thi...
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2015, 01:37:11 am »
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I think youshould try to read some tutorials on level design, you are trying to make a game without "studying" how to make a game...


I read an article once which really changed my attitude towards game design, they always asking you this question regarding a map.

¿Why is X tile placed in it, will the game be able to work without it, ? if yes, consider deletion..

another thing they keep saying is, remove patterns, a good example is in Legend of Zelda I, all rocks placed in the game are in certain pattern to remove the monotomy, they ARENT randomly placed through the map, AND! They always break the pattern a good example would be:

can you find the misplaced rock?

articles to read:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/134949/learning_from_the_masters_level_.php
http://www.zeldainformer.com/articles/brilliance-in-level-design-ocarina-of-times-forest-temple
http://critical-gaming.squarespace.com/blog/2011/1/5/super-meat-boy-pt1.html

ACTUALLY ANYTHING FROM CRITICAL-GAMING IS A MUST TO START AND Be GOD IN LEVEL DESIGN!:

http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2009/11/8/locks-keys-obstacles-pt2.html
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2008/11/2/co-op-mechanics-and-design-pt-3.html
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2008/3/29/function-creates-form-a-look-at-the-zelda-series-unifiying-d.html

HYPER MEGA RECOMMENDED READING:
http://critical-gaming.com/blog/2010/12/30/about-that-indie-feel-pt1.html
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Re: Dungeon Design, Overworld Design, Making thi...
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2015, 02:21:58 am »
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Hello all. Its been a while since i have posted here, but with summer winding down and school coming closer i have noticed a lot of free time i have spending on a game that I usually am on and off coding. What i have noticed for a big pause in my game is im not really sure where to go. I have a checklist, and the only things on it now are large things. I'm stuck either turning the overworld from a skeleton to populated, or starting dungeon creation. Both of these have gotten me thinking, and i started looking in to how those two are actually done. A few years ago, i assumed overworlds were a lot more simple then they are. I have the skeleton down. I have all the caves and dungeon entrances and water made. But it just feels big and empty and i know randomly placing bushes and enemies would not help. For dungeons, they are very very complex at the core, and not just random rooms looking for keys. So i came here seeking advice to those who have probably studied these two points for their own games or others. Im looking for advice to some very vague questions, or to just start a discussion on what makes an overworld or a dungeon a zelda feeling overworld or dungeon. what does it need to have? how do you populate an overworld so people would enjoy exploring it? How do you know the balance between a dungeon being too linear or too vague?

I think that before actually making a dungeon, you should figure out what you would want to include in it. If you start off with the intention to create a dungeon or overworld without any idea of the specifics, then you are probably going to end up with something generic or boring.

Define some gameplay elements first, figure out how they work and what kind of emotions you would want the player to feel from interacting with them. Then create some interesting scenarios that revolve around those elements. They can be puzzles, but really they can be just about anything. You don't have to worry about where they will be, whether or not they will be in the same dungeon or even whether or not you will use them at all, but just make a list and keep it for later. Once you got that down, then you can actually start making a dungeon out of the list of scenarios you've made. This is probably where the actual dungeon design aspect comes into play. This is where you begin to work out the structure of your dungeon, which puzzles to include from your list, taking into account difficulty and whatnot.

There are alot more issues that should be taken into account, but this is the basic approach that I would take when designing a dungeon. As a matter of fact, I actually made a game very recently where I tried to design a dungeon myself. It's in the project section if you want to take a look: http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=41411.0


« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 02:25:49 am by Milo »
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Zhello

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Re: Dungeon Design, Overworld Design, Making thi...
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2015, 04:44:52 pm »
  • L'homme avec beaucoup de noms.
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Dungeon making isn't easy either lol. I remade 2 dungeons I've created in the past for it was way too easy and way to short, right now my first dungeon takes 15-20 minutes to complete it, even if you speed past it without accidentally triggering Hero Mode, which I did in my recent videos and got owned when I purposely enabled hero mode in a boss fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-V_uHQY3_M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYLCLvbHT_g


But in the end, you HAVE to play through what you made like a hundred times just to see what is missed or needs to be fixed, just like I have when I remade this dungeon, this was before. Martijn dh posted a while back on what needs to be done to make a good dungeon, that's why the 3 I already have are being re-worked and it takes time to make it how you want it, adding things in their to challenge the player.
What I do differently is add passive/primary choice for the player to do via taking action in the overworld or in the dungeon. The first dungeon has a passive quest to save a deku solider or just ignoring him, later on in the game it will cost you something depending on the end result.

Plus it is good idea to brainstorm, get your ideas on a piece of paper or just use ms paint to make maps, doors, etc.
Also puzzles, thinking of a few is another thing as well.
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Re: Dungeon Design, Overworld Design, Making thi...
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2015, 06:17:41 pm »
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Wow im surprised at the amount of in depth responses ive already gotten. Thanks to everyone so far! I was a little vague in my intro, but i have been doing a bit of studying on dungeons and overworlds, i just wanted to hear other opinions on it. Those articles also look very helpful and i will begin reading them after this post. When i was looking into dungeons they all did seem very linear. And it sort of hit me that while playing through a few zelda games that I knew well, i could speed through the dungeons. But it wasnt like i was skipping anything, it was just the puzzles to get from one linear room to the other had been figured out. So i came across the idea that the dungeons werent neccesarily complicated or confuzing, in fact most were straight forward with no breaks, but it was the puzzles that took the time.

The dungeon design seems more of a trial and error to get a good one. As i do have a theme and a main item and such picked out already, I feel like i just have to learn through doing it to make it. Dungeon design feels like a skill to learn. The overworld one though i am still drawing a blank it. What i have done is recreated the map from the original zelda game, but with LTTP/OOT2D style tilesets, and gave the land a bit more diversity(creating biomes like beach and snow and desert and forest) and it worked great. But then the forest area of the map is a huge empty spot because i dont know how to correctly place things, what and where to add dirt tiles. My idea that i came up with yesterday was to label each biome and get a list of things i wanted in them, and then slowly adding them to the game, although i still feel like its arbitrary. Hopefully those articles will shed some light on this.

Thank you all for the great resources and replies!
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Re: Dungeon Design, Overworld Design, Making thi...
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2015, 02:40:36 am »
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Wow im surprised at the amount of in depth responses ive already gotten. Thanks to everyone so far! I was a little vague in my intro, but i have been doing a bit of studying on dungeons and overworlds, i just wanted to hear other opinions on it. Those articles also look very helpful and i will begin reading them after this post. When i was looking into dungeons they all did seem very linear. And it sort of hit me that while playing through a few zelda games that I knew well, i could speed through the dungeons. But it wasnt like i was skipping anything, it was just the puzzles to get from one linear room to the other had been figured out. So i came across the idea that the dungeons werent neccesarily complicated or confuzing, in fact most were straight forward with no breaks, but it was the puzzles that took the time.

Indeed, there is a difference between being complicated and seeming to be complicated. Same goes with non-linearity. Like Donotfeedthemax said, dungeons are usually very linear, and every player has to go through the same path to get to the goalpost. But players feel like they are wandering through a maze because the linear path twists around on itself. You are usually forced to revisit some rooms more than once, but from a different location, or a higher viewpoint, and with a different goal in mind. This forces you to look at the same room in a whole new way, which makes the dungeons feel deep instead of shallow. At the same time, it doesn't feel tedious because you never feel like you are treading the same path twice, even though you are well aware that you have been in some places before. Even though some rooms, containing multiple elements and puzzles, may seem intimidating at first glance, following the natural path set out by the developers allows you to tackle it bit by bit, and in the end you feel like you have conquered something incredibly complex which makes you feel smart  XD.

So in a sense, your concerns about depth and linearity are kind of related. If you want to make your dungeon feel like a maze but at the same feel deep, then try incorporating multiple, but separate elements in each room, instead of one for each. Try making the dungeon twist in on itself, forcing the player to visit the same room twice but with a different mindset. It can be fun to work on and I imagine that it would be even more challenging if you worked on designing your dungeon in a "mould" like the in 8-bit games, where the every dungeon took on a particular shape based upon its name.
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