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[MG-Zero]

MG-Zero

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

That could work as well!  We could have Link fight off some Zolas at each camp before continuing.  Similar to the Bokoblin rush in Skyward Sword, but on a much smaller scale.

i love big weenies and i cannot lie

[Max.]

Max.

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Wow, I havn't thought about this in quite a while :p

Anyway, since story development o a little stalled here, we should try and resume. This whole Zora/Zola thing sounds good. There will be 2-3 smaller camps where Link will have to rescue Zora roalty before he can get into the fort, which blocks the entrance to Lake Hylia.

What if at each small encampment, Link has the option to either charge in and fight a bunch of Zola, or he can sneak in and free the Zora? I think it'd be more interesting to present the player with a choice.

Secondly, after Link defeats the Zola at their fort, he'll gain access to Lake Hylia and solve the mystery of the ancient mechanical devices with Sheldon, activating 2-3 of them before he encounters Maple at the last one.

I think connecting this area to the overarching story could be as simple as having Maple say things like, "Why do you keep stopping me? Do you even know what you're doing?" Before fighting Link.


Oh, and finally, since Link is going back to Hyrule Town, do we want him to meet up with Ganon before seeing the Deku get robbed? Ganon would learn about Maple and start to realize that the ancient hero is working against him. Something like that?...

[MG-Zero]

MG-Zero

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

I like the idea of giving them an option, it allows the player to take advantage of their thieving skills!

As for Ganon, they probably should meet before hand.  It's like a status update for him.

i love big weenies and i cannot lie

[Max.]

Max.

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Status Update for Ganon?

"Hittin up the milk bar, Bongo Bongo's playing a set. We'll see if I even remember it, YOLO!"

Actually though, we need to convey some play to justify having Link meet up with Ganon. Maybe an interaction with Zelda along the way where she hints that she doesn't trust Ganon, or doesn't trust Link, or something? "I hear you've joined forces with the Gerudo King. That's an interesting decision, I hope your quest ends as it should..." Or something, and after that Zelda instructs the guards in the castle to throw you out if you get caught there, which adds challenge as well as shows that Zelda doesn't trust Link and Ganon.

Perhaps this would even apply to the market, maybe the guards didn't pay attention to Link between getting nice clothes and now.

[MG-Zero]

MG-Zero

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Going further on the clothing thing, maybe Link can get caught on the way out of the castle after meeting Ganon which makes the guards notice him again

i love big weenies and i cannot lie

[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

He guys I'm sorry that it took so long for replying. I have read up on the discussion and made some of my comments. I shall make them in the chronological order of the story.

1 ) I think that Link is going back to the Gerudo King is pretty much given. I don't think additional nudging would be necessary. To the player he is still a benevolent character at that moment. Not to mention that the Gerudo King would have told Link to return because he would research the locations of the others.

2 ) I think at that time it is best that the Gerudo King would give the locations of all 3 remaining cogs to Link. One with the Zora, one with the Gorons and one with the Hylian Royal Family (which we know is not with the Royal Family, but the player doesn't) and the Gerudo King would be better to search for the last ones location, because he can move freely through the Castle.

3 ) Mentioning Maple at this point is probably not to relevant on the story's progress. Because the Gerudo King would not reveal his true identity yet. Or he might not care because he already knows and knows that Link can best Maple, the hero cannot enter the shrines himself and he believes Link to be under his control. The Gerudo King would just be scheming at this point and let the future unfold.

4 ) Link would meet the Gerudo King in the Castle and when he leaves he would be caught by guards who want to throw him in the dungeon. But they are interrupted by Zelda. She recognizes Link from earlier and asks him what his business was in the Castle. Link answers that he had a meeting with the Gerudo King, but doesn't get the chance to go into more detail. Zelda starts to mumble that the Gerudo King has been spending a lot of time in the Castle's Royal Library lately. She then orders the guards to escort Link out of the Castle instead of to the dungeon. Once Link is outside the Castle he cannot get back in due to increased security.

5 ) The Deku Merchant would be standing in Castle Town next to a Gate visibly crying. You could even have a guard or a character like Eugene taking his statement and maybe one of the gangmembers trying to comfort him. They do not need to block the entrance or something as this gathering would probably be plenty of visible. The Zola who robbed the merchant are still on Hyrule Field on the path towards River Valley assessing the loot.

6 ) My initial thought for the fort was to give the player the option for sneaking or just battling his way in. But I do like the idea of several camps before the fort as well. We could  even rate the player on how he goes through the fort (sneaking or battling) and have the reactions of the prince and princess depend on it. Having the princess preffer using her mind and thus sneaking and the prince preffer to use brawn and thus battling.

7 ) Collecting the materials isn't necessary and can be scrapped. I had the idea for lengthening the story because this part seemed short compared to the Hyrule Town/Deku/Kokiri part towards the first dungeon. But hey scrapping it is just fine with me, when you put small puzzles in place to the ancient devices.

8 ) I think that Link should battle Maple at the first device and the battle would damage the device [The why I will tell later]. You then get Sheldon and he will work to repair it. In the mean time Link goes looking for the other devices and turn them on. Once Link emerges from the 3rd device on to Lake Hylia again. A rumbling starts, because Sheldon turned on the first device again. Link will see the entrance rise from the center of Lake Hylia.
On the shore you will see the ancient Hero and Maple. Maple tells the hero something like "I was right in letting that idiot do the hard work for us. Wasn't I?" (As if that would rectify her earlier mistake) And Maple would then quickly rush into the Temple before Link. The hero would then disappear and reappear before Link. He warns/threatens Link that Link's life and every life in Hyrule would come to a horrible end if he continues on his path. And the hero would then leave again.
Link continues into the dungeon. He finds Maple knocked out by the Mini-boss. Link defeats the boss and gets the Cog.
Once Link emerges and gets back to shore he is attacked by a group of Zola wanting revenge for their fallen leader. But he fends them of.

Now for the whys of that last bit:

• Maple's fight should be at the first device, because it would allow some time to pass for Maple and the Hero to regroup before entering the dungeon. And let the Hero enter the story again.
• Having the first device be damaged allows Sheldon for some story time, but it also gives a delay in that Link can return to the Lake Hylia area and see the entrance rise himself, see Maple go in and be confronted by the Hero.
• Finding Maple knocked out in the dungeon indicates that Link has caught up and went pass Maple in the race for the cog (in the 3rd dungeon Maple and Link could fight together to defeat the boss).
• Facing the gang of Zola after the dungeon gives an epilogue to the Zora arc, just as the Deku Merchant gives a epilogue to the Deku arc. And enough time should have passed for the Zola to regroup.

[Max.]

Max.

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

I agree with almost all of your points, and we should probably sum this section up in a bit. Couple questions though,

Why does Ganon tell Link that the last cog is with the royal family? What's the point of this?

Just the wording of the Hero's shade's dialogue, I don't think he should call Link an idiot, he should be benevolent. The hero is always really kind harted and pure.

The entrance rising from the lake will probably have to be scrolled to anyway, I don't think there will be anywhere you can stand to see the middle of the lake and the whole entrance, I imagine it to be a kinda big sprite, so it doesn't matter where Link is when he activates the last one. Therefore, it makes more sense to me that Link activates the 3rd one, goes back to Sheldon, who activates the first one. Then the screen will cut to the lake rising, then cut to the hero and Maple. Then as Link is about to walk into the temple, the hero can talk to him. What do you think?

[MG-Zero]

MG-Zero

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Why does Ganon tell Link that the last cog is with the royal family? What's the point of this?

Perhaps the creators of the cog made it appear as if the royal family had the last cog.  Maybe Ganon isn't even aware that the Shiekah have it until doing some research on his own time.

i love big weenies and i cannot lie

[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Why does Ganon tell Link that the last cog is with the royal family? What's the point of this?

Ganon did research in the Library and found a recording that when the Sacred Realm was sealed the cogs were divided over the Gorons, Zora, Deku/Kokiri and Hylians. He did not find out that the Hylian Royal Family passed on their cog to the Sheikah (who are their trusted servants) for save keeping.

Just the wording of the Hero's shade's dialogue, I don't think he should call Link an idiot, he should be benevolent. The hero is always really kind harted and pure.

That is not said by the Hero. It is said by Maple, who wants to boost the Hero's confidence in her after being defeated by Link at the first device. And Maple can be that insulting.

The entrance rising from the lake will probably have to be scrolled to anyway, I don't think there will be anywhere you can stand to see the middle of the lake and the whole entrance, I imagine it to be a kinda big sprite, so it doesn't matter where Link is when he activates the last one. Therefore, it makes more sense to me that Link activates the 3rd one, goes back to Sheldon, who activates the first one. Then the screen will cut to the lake rising, then cut to the hero and Maple. Then as Link is about to walk into the temple, the hero can talk to him. What do you think?

I think that is not such good idea. The reason for this is that the player experiences the world and the story through Link. Thus cutting away from Link to show events in another area breaks this bond. I know the Minish Cap did this, but it was also one of the bad things. Having Link in the same area he can see the entrance rise and he can overhear (with his Hylian ears)  the conversation about him. The player experiences these events through Link.

[Max.]

Max.

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Ah, alright, so the transferring of the cog from Hylian to Sheikah will be a plot point later. Coolio.

Also, thought you had the hero saying that idiot about Link, m'bad :p

About the screen scrolling to give the player a decent view of what's going on though, plenty of Zelda games do that, I feel like almost all the 2D ones did. ALTTP scrolled over to show you what happened when you pressed a switch, like which door opened, I'm pretty sure the oracle games did too. Let me try to understand what you're saying: you don't think the player should see anything that Link isn't looking at, to retain immersion in the character? I agree with that.

However, it's just a logistics thing. If you only want the player to see things through Link as strictly as you're proposing, you HAVE to have a first-person perspective. The problem with our perspective is that we're looking at Link top-down, and Link is looking forward out of his eyes. So Link can see plenty of things in front ("above" to us on our computer screens) that the player can't see on his screen.

Dealing with a big thing like a temple entrance that Link can't even walk up to when he triggers it's action, you need to scroll the player's screen in order to see what Link is seeing. I'm not saying we completely cut away to an area Link can't see at all, I'm saying we'll have to scroll the player's view up a few tiles to that the player can see the temple rising out of the lake like Link sees.

Also, lake like link is like a typing tongue twister. I messed that up so many times


I guess we're probably just misunderstanding what each other means :p

[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Okay, I think we kinda mean the same thing, but we are misunderstanding each other at the moment.

I have nothing against the view scrolling to a different position of the area where Link is in. And yes, many Zelda games did this. A number of Zelda games even showed something very different when a character told a memory or story. And even some games linger a bit at the entrance just after Link leaves or right before Link enters an area. These things are something that do not break the immersion, because the player is always a few steps before or after or at the same position as Link. View scrolling in an area is not a problem.

However something MC did was to let the player know what was happening in another area where Link is not. For example when Link is on Hyrule Field they suddenly skipped back to Hyrule Castle to show the King sending out knights to look for the light force. When this happens the player knows more than Link knows and the bond is broken. This is what I dislike. The player should be surprised at the same time Link is surprised.

So to clarify about how I see it. The ancient devices are hidden in a couple of caves and Sheldon is repairing the first device in a cave. Thus Link is not in the area of Lake Hylia, when he activates the second or third device. Neither would he be if he would go to Sheldon to activate the first device. Thus when Link leaves the third device cave is when the cutscene event is triggered that the entrance rises.

It could start by hearing a very loud "WOOOOOOOOHHHHHHOOOOOOOO!!!!!" from Sheldon coming from the first cave. The world starts to rumble, the view would scroll to the place where the entrance rises. Next the camera scrolls to the Hero and Maple, who have their conversation and Maple enters the dungeon. The hero vanishes and the view scrolls back to Link, where the Hero reappears and confronts Link. The Hero disappears again and the player gets the control back.

I don't want to do the Hero's confrontation with Link at the Temple entrance, because after the rising cutscene the player wants to continue playing and do the dungeon already. It would be irritating if the player would be interrupted again with a forced plot event so short after the cutscene with the entrance rising. Having the confrontation in the same cutscene makes the cutscene a bit longer, but it does make these plot events happen in one go instead of little bits of pieces.

[Max.]

Max.

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Yeah, I guess the big thing is that I was imagining the ancient mechanisms in the Lake Hylia area, as is Sheldon's house. So either way, we wouldn't be cutting away, so either could work. The main reason I suggest having Link go back to the first mechanism and activate it himself is this:

If Link starts out with one broken mechanism and the player knows that he's got two more to find, and then one to fix, when the player finds the second one, they're not expecting that to be the end, they're expecting to have to go back to the first one to fix it. They're thinking there's more stuff to do, but it's cut off earlier then they expected. I've always found it dissatisfying in a game to expect a big task, then find out that somebody else did it and you just have to move on now. I think it's better to have a task set before you, then complete it all yourself.

Even if the last one is just Link comes back and Sheldon says, "hey, can you hold this for me while I... woah! It works!" or even "hey, I was waiting for you to come back before I went ahead and pressed this... woah!" Then the player doesn't have more expectations than he should about the amount of stuff to do.

It's not a big deal, I just think the payoff is a little stronger this way.


About having the cutscene all in one, that's a good point, it definitely does free up the player all at once, which is nice. It changes the attitude into an "alright, watching's over, let's do this".


So, about the Zola raiding party attacking Link at the end. I dunno, it feels kind of tacked on, because as a player, we defeated the Zola long ago, they're all taken care of. Then we've been thinking about the dungeon, we aren't even focusing on the present time with it's Zora/Zola conflict, we are looking at ancient mechanisms, wondering why they built this place eons ago, what purpose it could hold, what the cogs are really for, maybe we're starting to wonder if that ghost dude with Maple was telling the truth about Hyrule's life coming to an end.
And then those Zola show up again? I thought we were past this. Kill 'em, shouldn't be as difficult as the BOSS BATTLE I just did seconds ago.

And THEN we move onto the Gorons.

I feel like bringing the Zola back in disrupts the flow, and rather than feeling like a conclusion, it feels tacked on pointlessly and disruptfullly. What if we find a better way to bring a conclusion in?

Perhaps in gratitude for your help, when you get out of the dungeon, there's a Zora waiting for you who tells you to meet as such and such place up the river. If you go upstream, you find Zora Royalty waiting for you, and they open some blockade such as a dam or something, allowing Link to swim further upstream into the mountains?
-Later he can come back and open and land route into the mountains, but perhaps for now, this is the only way in?

The only problem with this is that it doesn't allow for Link to return to Hyrule Town in between dungeons, which he should do.

[MG-Zero]

MG-Zero

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Just 2 cents on the whole Zola after the dungeon thing.  Let's say the boss has some sort of pendant on him that Link takes back to the Zora as proof of his victory.  The Zola could approach Link to attack, who then shows the relic.  The Zola then realized whats happened and flee in fear.

Now, this map scrolling business.  I agree with Niek that the player should only know what Link knows. Thus if the temple rises while Link is not in the area, they should not know.  To resolve this, we can have an NPC frantically looking upon the lake (perhaps Sheldon?) who will tell Link that something wacky happened under the lake.

i love big weenies and i cannot lie

[Max.]

Max.

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

About the scrolling, my argument is that watching the temple rise would be cool. If we can animate that in an awesome way, then Link should be in the area for whatever reason to watch it rise. However, if watching it rise isn't awesome, then he doesn't even need to be there.

For a conclusion, perhaps having the Zola fear Link isn't as fulfilling as having the Zola fear the Zora. I mean, Link has already defeated the Zola in several places, but the Zora are the good guys but haven't done much. What if the Zola attack Link wanting revenge, but the young Zora royalty, the prince and princess, arrive and either fight them off or help Link?

As far as timing for this event, I feel like RIGHT after the temple isn't good, it's so sudden, and gives a very small opportunity to save. What if Link defeats the temple, and on his way out of the area and back to Hyrule Town, he meets the leftover Zola who want revenge?

[MG-Zero]

MG-Zero

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

We could do that too.  Just have the Zoras show up and open up a can of whoop-ass on the last remaining Zolas.  Not the player though, just the Zoras

i love big weenies and i cannot lie

[Max.]

Max.

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

I think it'd be more of a satisfying conclusion this way. Especially if use it to conclude a character transformation for the Zora. Perhaps they aren't confidant, nervous about being overrun by the Zola, but at the end, after seeing Link's bravery in saving them, they are inspired to change.
So, before Link goes and saves the Zora royalty, we could have NPCs talk some things about "I don't know how strong the Zora prince and princess will be when they grow up", or "King Zora's been afraid of the Zola, it hasn't given the kids a good example", things like that. And obviously the prince and princess would be terrified while Link's saving them.

So Link could be about to re-enter Hyrule field when he's attacked, then the Zora prince and princess could show up and defeat the Zola. Afterwards, perhaps one of them gives Link an item signifying his relationship with the Zora royal family, so Zora in other places would treat Link differently. Maybe in Hyrule Town they're be a Zora who'd allow Link to get into the sewers, or that Zora guru who teaches Link a sword technique (can't remember the NPC's name...) wouldn't respect Link enough to teach him until Link has the Zora seal.

[MG-Zero]

MG-Zero

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

You know, I'm liking this idea, especially the end part with the item!  I assume the character you're referring to is Zeere, the Zen Zora?

i love big weenies and i cannot lie

[Max.]

Max.

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Yup, that was him. Which technique should he teach? I'll look at all the techniques maybe tomorrow and think about it, as well as summarize this chapter of the game, so we can look over it as a whole, then move on to the Gorons.

[MG-Zero]

MG-Zero

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

I think the submission says the Persuit Slash once the shadow cloak is acquired.

i love big weenies and i cannot lie

[Max.]

Max.

Re: Story Pass:THIRD ACT

Yeah, well I was thinking if we are gonna have this Zora item unlock his teaching, maybe he should teach something immediately learnable once you unlock his teaching. What I mean is, you get the Zora's Approval, you can talk to this guy and he will finally respect you to teach you and he says... I can't teach you until you have the shadow cloak..."

Seems like a letdown.

So what I was thinking was maybe he could teach the roll attack or sword beam instead. So that way, if the Zora item unlocks his teaching, then you can immediately take advantage of it. Feels like a slightly better flow to me, what do you think?