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Iraqi War
« on: June 29, 2006, 09:13:00 pm »
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So now the we found WMDs... now what?

Did Bush still lie?  Is the war still illegal?  Were we still mislead?  And are those poor Iraqis that we're helping still not worth dying for?

I'm just in a really poor mood after hearing "Bush lied" yet again, RIGHT AFTER finding WMDs ^_^

EDIT: And for those of you, who likes to hear what the government has to say about it, here's the declassified portion of the NGIC report.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 09:29:57 pm by 2awesome4apossum »
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Dantztron 3030

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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2006, 09:37:51 pm »
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We actually found WMDs? Wow, took us long enough didn't it :P

I've never truly been opposed to the war, more the way we went about it, and I have never denied the POSSIBILITY that Iraq had them...though I have been extremely doubtful. But that's for a separate discussion at a separate time. I'd like a link to a story please, as the declassified document, unless I misread something (which with my ADD, is very possible), shows no proof to me that weve found WMDs. So...yeah.
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well i dont have that system and it is very hard to care about everything when you are single

Pyru

Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2006, 09:41:08 pm »
So now the we found WMDs...

Huh? Did I miss something? Because I haven't seen anything about that.

Did Bush still lie?

Yep.

Is the war still illegal?

'Fraid so. The illegality wasn't the "They said there were WMDs, but there's not", but some other points... including the use of illegal chemical weapons during the war. ^_^

Were we still mislead?

Hell yeah.

And are those poor Iraqis that we're helping still not worth dying for?

A hella lotta them are dying too, I think you'll find. =P

I'm just in a really poor mood after hearing "Bush lied" yet again, RIGHT AFTER finding WMDs ^_^

Still big eyebrow raised over that...

Any evidence that they were actually developed/built/kept by the previous Iraqi government, not planted after the war?
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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2006, 09:48:09 pm »
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more the way we went about it
Haven't we all?  It's been flawed from the beginning.  At the same time: how can you have a perfect war?  Certainly it hasn't been the worst war we've ever had.

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shows no proof to me that weve found WMDs
Let me link you to a fox news article :D

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

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Huh? Did I miss something? Because I haven't seen anything about that.
The media's currently dodging the facts, just going "well... um <_< the war's illegal... yeah..."

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Yep.
This document proves otherwise :)

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'Fraid so. The illegality wasn't the "They said there were WMDs, but there's not", but some other points... including the use of illegal chemical weapons during the war. ^_^
There's so many opinions on why the war is illegal, no facts concerning it though.  There has been no official non-opinion statement claiming that the war's illegal from any official form of government (including the UN).

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Any evidence that they were actually developed/built/kept by the previous Iraqi government, not planted after the war?
I've decided that you're a kool-aid drinker.  You'll assume anything to agree with the rest of the liberal politicians.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 09:55:27 pm by 2awesome4apossum »
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Pyru

Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2006, 09:55:49 pm »
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shows no proof to me that weve found WMDs
Page four.  It's under key points.  ;)  But let me link you to a fox news article :D
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

That article cracks me up. America brought its own chemical weapons to Iraq.

Besides, it's Fox. When was the last time THEY were impartial?

The article's from a week ago, and I have heard NOTHING about this on any other kind of news, so I'm tempted to believe it's not entirely credible.

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Huh? Did I miss something? Because I haven't seen anything about that.
The media's currently dodging the facts, just going "well... um <_< the war's illegal... yeah..."

Apart from Fox, isn't that lovely for you? Also, in relation to what I'm gonna say later, check the meaning of the word "fact".

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Yep.
This document proves otherwise :)

OOOOOHhhhhh, did you say "prove"? Because I doubt a document, no matter how wonderful and lovely, could prove ANYTHING. I just wrote a document on a machine that can turn poo into chocolate. Wanna read it? Thought not. The document's poo in itself. ^_^

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'Fraid so. The illegality wasn't the "They said there were WMDs, but there's not", but some other points... including the use of illegal chemical weapons during the war. ^_^
There's so many opinions on why the war is illegal, no facts concerning it though.  There has been no official non-opinion statement claiming that the war's illegal from any official form of government (including the UN).

*shrug* Who knows? Very few people want to pick a fight with the US, which is a real problem in the world these days. You think you can do whatever the !@#$% you like, and guess what? You get away with it.

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Any evidence that they were actually developed/built/kept by the previous Iraqi government, not planted after the war?
I've decided that you're a kool-aid drinker.  You'll assume anything to agree with the rest of the liberal politicians.

And I've decided that someone dropped you on your head as a baby. Repeatedly.

Like I said, is there. Any. Evidence. That they were developed, built or kept by the previous government? 500 is a lot to hide in a country and be completely missed by a team of weapons inspectors examining the country twice.

It is, however, rather easy to hide the weapons somewhere ELSE, then hide them in Iraq... after the war. ^_^
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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2006, 10:04:54 pm »
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That article cracks me up. America brought its own chemical weapons to Iraq.
Got any basis for that statement?

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Besides, it's Fox. When was the last time THEY were impartial?
Who needs impartial?  I could care less about opinions, more about facts.

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The article's from a week ago, and I have heard NOTHING about this on any other kind of news, so I'm tempted to believe it's not entirely credible.
Quit being lazy and do a simple google search :)

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Apart from Fox, isn't that lovely for you? Also, in relation to what I'm gonna say later, check the meaning of the word "fact".
It's not just Fox.  Unlike some people, I'm actually constantly watching news, reading articles, listening to talk radio, and I'm aware of what's going on in the world.  Clearly, one source shouldn't be relyed on.  That's why I rely on multiple sources.

Whereas you're relying completely upon your own opinion... not even bothering to check the news.

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OOOOOHhhhhh, did you say "prove"? Because I doubt a document, no matter how wonderful and lovely, could prove ANYTHING. I just wrote a document on a machine that can turn poo into chocolate. Wanna read it? Thought not. The document's poo in itself. ^_^
See folks, I want everyone to see this post, and notice how he'll demean the other side, and completely dodge the actual statements within the document, instead of addressing the actual points.  This is a classic example of what people will do, when they can't win an argument through facts and logic... they'll start skewing things.

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*shrug* Who knows? Very few people want to pick a fight with the US, which is a real problem in the world these days. You think you can do whatever the !@#$% you like, and guess what? You get away with it.
Then why do they constantly attack the US?  They're always demeaning the US, why don't they quit talking and actually do something about it?

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Like I said, is there. Any. Evidence. That they were developed, built or kept by the previous government? 500 is a lot to hide in a country and be completely missed by a team of weapons inspectors examining the country twice.
I'm beginning to doubt that you read the entire article from beginning to end.  Google news has a few good links to stories on it: you also may want to try some of those.

And the weapons inspectors made visits to isolated areas.  It's not like they can cover the whole country ;)

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It is, however, rather easy to hide the weapons somewhere ELSE, then hide them in Iraq... after the war. ^_^
Again, what are you basing your deragatory, slanderous statements off of, other than your opinion?
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Pyru

Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2006, 10:27:32 pm »
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That article cracks me up. America brought its own chemical weapons to Iraq.
Got any basis for that statement?
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The article's from a week ago, and I have heard NOTHING about this on any other kind of news, so I'm tempted to believe it's not entirely credible.
Quit being lazy and do a simple google search :)

Two seperate parts of your post, I know, one reply:

I did a google search (criteria: America Iraq Chemical Weapons, you can check it yourself) and I did not immediately see anything about what you're talking about. BUT, I did find this: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/nov2005/chem-n11.shtml

Sure, not a very credible site (*cough neither is fox cough*) but if I was bothered, I could find many others with the exact some allegations, including some VERY credible sites.

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Besides, it's Fox. When was the last time THEY were impartial?
Who needs impartial?  I could care less about opinions, more about facts.

Their lack of credibility comes from their readiness to present their opinions as facts.

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Apart from Fox, isn't that lovely for you? Also, in relation to what I'm gonna say later, check the meaning of the word "fact".
It's not just Fox.  Unlike some people, I'm actually constantly watching news, reading articles, listening to talk radio, and I'm aware of what's going on in the world.  Clearly, one source shouldn't be relyed on.  That's why I rely on multiple sources.

Fair enough.

Whereas you're relying completely upon your own opinion... not even bothering to check the news.

Nope. I'm not relying on my opinion, or anyone else's opinion (Not even Fox's! :P). I read a national newspaper (sometimes more than one) every day. Most days, I watch BBC and Sky news (on the television... hear about it?) as well as listen to BBC Radio, and the news presented on that. I read the news on the internet (when I can be bothered) usually from multiple sources, to verify whatever I read.

And I have still not heard about this. I somehow doubt that a major newspaper and two major news channels would have skipped over this entirely. Who knows? Maybe it was covered by one of the many thousands of newspapers I don't read. If it was a major, credible story, it would be covered in some depth by the major newspapers and news networks, not just Fox.

So, please, do not make allegations about ME when you know nothing about what you are talking about.

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OOOOOHhhhhh, did you say "prove"? Because I doubt a document, no matter how wonderful and lovely, could prove ANYTHING. I just wrote a document on a machine that can turn poo into chocolate. Wanna read it? Thought not. The document's poo in itself. ^_^
See folks, I want everyone to see this post, and notice how he'll demean the other side, and completely dodge the actual statements within the document, instead of addressing the actual points.  This is a classic example of what people will do, when they can't win an argument through facts and logic... they'll start skewing things.

Your previous post misused language, to make it sound like what was known was a definite, known fact. I skewed nothing; you skewed the entire debate by suggesting that it was "fact" and that a document (a mere DOCUMENT) had proven it.

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*shrug* Who knows? Very few people want to pick a fight with the US, which is a real problem in the world these days. You think you can do whatever the funk you like, and guess what? You get away with it.
Then why do they constantly attack the US?  They're always demeaning the US, why don't they quit talking and actually do something about it?

'Cos a) you have the largest supply of nukes, b) you have the best way to dispatch these nukes, c) you're the only country ever shown to be willing to use nukes, d) you're the most war-like country in the past century? Also, see what's happened to Cuba. They've been CRIPPLED by the US, without a single military action taking place.

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Like I said, is there. Any. Evidence. That they were developed, built or kept by the previous government? 500 is a lot to hide in a country and be completely missed by a team of weapons inspectors examining the country twice.
I'm beginning to doubt that you read the entire article from beginning to end.  Google news has a few good links to stories on it: you also may want to try some of those.

I'm sorry, how's that for debating? "Read the article"? Try debating. ^_^

Read it. The best I could find, towards what you're saying, is this: "The weapons are thought to be manufactured before 1991 so they would not be proof of an ongoing WMD program in the 1990s"

THOUGHT to be. Any reason for this? Just an assumption without evidence? Or vague evidence that could very easily be fabricated? Or actual evidence that would implicate the previous Iraqi government? Doesn't say.

And the weapons inspectors made visits to isolated areas.  It's not like they can cover the whole country ;)

Fair enough. 500 is still a lot to hide, though. :P

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It is, however, rather easy to hide the weapons somewhere ELSE, then hide them in Iraq... after the war. ^_^
Again, what are you basing your deragatory, slanderous statements off of, other than your opinion?
[/quote]

Common sense, that's what. Think about: What would stop a country from storing weapons outside of Iraq and then moving them into Iraq after the war, to plant them as evidence? For starters, that would "validate" the American war actions.

Y'know, the kinds of things prosecutors would have to consider in normal criminal acts... or criminal actions against international law?

Also: "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

So, uhm. These could have been weapons that (perhaps) even Iraq didn't believe they had? This, like the last one, is a supposition (that is easily POSSIBLE, by previous evidence). Like, say, weapons that were hidden by corrupt officials that were thought to be decomissioned by the central government. At the same time, this means it does NOT validate America's actions for war: intelligence suggested a different kind of weapon, on which assumption the military went to action. It was a suspicion of something else that led them to go to war.

Sure, in theory, it's good they went to war in the long run - but they went to war for the wrong reasons, on false assumptions.
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Swoftu

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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2006, 06:07:20 am »
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/23/politics/main1747450.shtml?source=RSS&attr=Politics_1747450


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Weapons Found In Iraq Old, Unusable
Intel Officials Dismiss Report On Recovered Chemical Munitions

WASHINGTON, June 23, 2006

(AP) Hundreds of chemical weapons found in Iraq were produced before the 1991 Gulf War and probably are so old they couldn't be used as designed, intelligence officials said Thursday.

Two lawmakers ??? Sen. Rick Santorum, R-Pa., and House Intelligence Chairman Peter Hoekstra, R-Mich. ??? on Wednesday circulated a one-page summary of a military intelligence report that says coalition forces have recovered about 500 munitions with mustard or sarin agents, and more could be discovered around Iraq. "We now have found stockpiles," Santorum asserted.

But intelligence officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the subject's sensitive nature, said the weapons were produced before the 1991 Gulf War and there is no evidence to date of chemical munitions manufactured since then. They said an assessment of the weapons concluded they are so degraded that they couldn't now be used as designed.

They probably would have been intended for chemical attacks during the Iran-Iraq War, said David Kay, who headed the U.S. weapons-hunting team in Iraq from 2003 until early 2004.

He said experts on Iraq's chemical weapons are in "almost 100 percent agreement" that sarin nerve agent produced from the 1980s would no longer be dangerous.

"It is less toxic than most things that Americans have under their kitchen sink at this point," Kay said.

And any of Iraq's 1980s-era mustard would produce burns, but it is unlikely to be lethal, Kay said.

O RLY? Chemicals that are no longer any more dangerous than stuff found under my sink?

it's as stupid as invading your house and ridding you of bleach and ammonia because they make a toxic gas when combined. that's how "deadly" these chemicals now are.

No, mustard gas doesn't degrade into a harmless substance, i think it degrades to hydrochloric acid actually. probably some sulfur oxides and some chlorine in there too. not nice stuff to be around no... but it isn't a WMD. it's just as dangerous as the **** you clean your house with every day.

Are you going to tell me that we had to go to war in iraq to rid saddam of ****ing chlorine? you know, the stuff that goes in your pool?

Looks like Fox news is just playing the biased fear mongering news source that it is.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 06:15:55 am by Swiftu »
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Gilgamesh

Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2006, 12:11:43 pm »
JUST IN:
Found chemical weapons of mass destruction in my very own kitchen!

2a4p, guess this means those WMDs weren't worth a war after all.
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Dantztron 3030

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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2006, 04:17:41 pm »
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Ouch. XD

This reminds me of the Michael Jackson trial on Fox News. I remember, his limo stopped and the reporters panicked. "WE DON'T KNOW WHY THEY ARE STOPPING, THE LIMO HAS STOPPED, WE WILL HAVE MORE INFO ASAP." Then it turns out it was only a traffic light.

We report, you decide.
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well i dont have that system and it is very hard to care about everything when you are single
Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2006, 05:56:49 pm »
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Yes, Swiftu, they are no longer useable the fox report says that.  Didn't read it, did you?

Yes, they weren't manufactured after 1991, most likely.

Yes, they weren't the WMDs that we were looking for.

But they weren't destroyed like Saddam said, were they?

Which is what the Fox News Report is about.  Please, read the damn links I hand out (since you're always asking for them).

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Are you going to tell me that we had to go to war in iraq to rid saddam of ****ing chlorine? you know, the stuff that goes in your pool?
Nope, but I am saying that we now have proof that Saddam did in fact lie.  And just because we think it's likely that many of them are no longer useable does not say anything about intentions.  And we know he used them on his people.

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I'm sorry, how's that for debating? "Read the article"? Try debating. ^_^
I've given you sources, I've given you opinions, your question would be answered if you just read the thing.
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Pyru

Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2006, 06:26:30 pm »
But they weren't destroyed like Saddam said, were they?

Is there any evidence to suggest that he knew they still existed? Were they stockpiled by people employed to dispose of them?

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Are you going to tell me that we had to go to war in iraq to rid saddam of ****ing chlorine? you know, the stuff that goes in your pool?
Nope, but I am saying that we now have proof that Saddam did in fact lie.  And just because we think it's likely that many of them are no longer useable does not say anything about intentions.  And we know he used them on his people.

Evidence for using them on his people? Any evidence to say that he KNEW he was lying? And intentions are !@#$%. I intend to nuke the White House, but somehow I don't see that happening.

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I'm sorry, how's that for debating? "Read the article"? Try debating. ^_^
I've given you sources, I've given you opinions, your question would be answered if you just read the thing.

Uhm, when I ASK for some kind of evidence or something, you could at least quote the article in question, rather than say "read it". It's always possible to miss things, y'know. I'm only human.
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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2006, 06:34:10 pm »
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The United States entered the Iraqi War under suspicion of WMDs.  There were other countries who had reason to believe that Hussein did not comply with the earlier weapon disposal he agreed to, and there were rumors of "yellow cake" being sought after.  The United States, who now knew what it was to not act of recovered intelligence, sought to end what would have probably been something much worse if not acted on as soon as possible. 

Pyru, intentions are important.  Everybody knows that you lack the resources and funding to secure weapons or provide for the development of any WMD.  Thus, since Hussein did, his threat was taken seriously.

Besides, there were known terrorists in Iraq, and the US, British, etc. involvement in Iraq can only lead to security in the Middle East.  And, technically, while Congress has to approve war, the President can issue an executive order to act without their approval for a limited time.  For Congress to back out after we went there like that would be even worse.  The Iraqi War is helping people, but some people do not realize that because they sit in their cozy home on a computer connected to the Internet without fear of a terrorist bomb killing them if they go outside.

EDIT: I thought I would add a little.  The US has not economically strangled Cuba.  In fact, Cuba and the US are now on friendly terms.  That is why we have a military base there.  If Cuba was our enemy, I do not think that would be possible.  Remember Hurricane Katrina?  Cuba offered the US help.  They offered us help. 

About the Fox News, they provide a good service and they are a reliable source.  About that Michael Jackson traffic light event, the news crew was in a helicopter that could not descend anymore and had a limited flying space.  You should also have thought that he might do something if he stopped too: 1) it's the same guy who danced on top of his car 2)he was late to court on more than one occasion 3)nobody is perfect, and it is often hard to judge what you cannot see.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2006, 11:47:32 pm by 4Sword »
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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2006, 03:48:52 am »
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Is there any evidence to suggest that he knew they still existed? Were they stockpiled by people employed to dispose of them?
Which is exactly what's wrong with people that have your mindset...

...I was outraged the other day, and I was ranting to my dad (he's a profesor that doesn't care much to talk about politics with me-- I'm too disagreeable to him) about how stupid it was that now that we have proof that we've found over 500 WMDs in Iraq, that people are saying that for some reason they don't count as WMDs.  And he was all, "well, you have to understand the mindset of these people.  After we went in and we didn't find a demanded stockpile of WMDs at some specific location, these people were under the impression that the intelligence was thereby faulty-- there's been something wrong with these people from the start."

And I can't understand how in the world, one could believe that this intelligence was faulty simply because Saddam didn't have a big box of WMDs all at some factory labled as "stockpile of WMDs".

He knew they existed, they weren't being destroyed like he said they were (perhaps you don't recall him explicitely kicking UN inspectors out of the areas that they wanted to go to).

Also: how could this be an illegal war?  I've debated this in so many respects; that I've overlooked the obvious.

Remember that last resolution that we passed for Saddam?  The consequence (and this is written in the resolution: it's an official statement) for Saddam not complying to the resolution is: force.  So for the UN to write a statement saying that force is neccessary, then back out and say it's illegal... I dunno...

...and if you don't believe me: all you have to do is read the resolution.

Besides, we know that France and Germany isn't in this for economic reasons (and millions of dollars that they wanted in their own pockets).  I thought that economics over national security would be classified as "evil" for a liberal.

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Evidence for using them on his people? Any evidence to say that he KNEW he was lying? And intentions are !@#$%. I intend to nuke the White House, but somehow I don't see that happening.
You don't intend to do it.  You think about it, you spring up false statements (because you obviously don't plan to go through with an attack on the white house).  But if you DID intend to do it, and we somehow could an advanced notion, we would put you in prison, so that it would never happen.

Instead of allowing a criminal to murder, we try to lock him up as he's trying to shoot the victim instead of waiting until after he kills them.

And I thought you were for hate crimes legislation as well, lol.  Either you're not, or your mindset has a double-standard.

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Uhm, when I ASK for some kind of evidence or something, you could at least quote the article in question, rather than say "read it". It's always possible to miss things, y'know. I'm only human.
No, no, no... you're debating on the presumption of faulty evidence.  You can't make that presumption, unless you address the evidence directly.

You're presuming too much (the statements you're making are overly undefined), and when you start trying to say "it's wrong", perhaps you ought to find basis for your statements, like I have.
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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2006, 09:00:55 pm »
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I'm enjoying this Iraq war now.

Look at the Government before the war, and look at it now, see how its crumbling, dying, and how the corruptness is starting to show.
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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2006, 09:27:31 pm »
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I'm enjoying this Iraq war now.

Look at the Government before the war, and look at it now, see how its crumbling, dying, and how the corruptness is starting to show.
What you mean the Iraqi government?  If that's the case, it's been showing corruption for quite a long time ;)
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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2006, 08:58:00 pm »
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Nope American and British, see how they had and even have any support now that they are at war, I think this is all gonna end in one huge nuke, from Korea most likely, them buggers have nukes growing from there arse!
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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2006, 05:20:50 pm »
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I'm enjoying this Iraq war now.
I'm certainly not.

Yeah, I should of said that a bit better >.<
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Re: Iraqi War
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2006, 03:53:28 am »
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You also should have been aware that neither the US nor the UN's government is collapsing.  You should also be aware that they do have support (although diminishing-- regretably), and that North Korea, while a worse threat, does not mean Iraq wasn't a threat.
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