ZFGC

ZFGC CP => King of Thieves => Management => Topic started by: MG-Zero on July 14, 2013, 10:12:29 pm

Title: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on July 14, 2013, 10:12:29 pm
Here we are finally, the last challenge Link goes through before fighting his way through the Celestial Clock!  This part of the story focuses on the Sheikah and Gerudo, two rival races.  Here's what the Wiki says on the Sheikah:

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Residing in a series of temples throughout the Valley of Death, they are the rivals of the Gerudo. Their elders reside in the highest parts of the the temples and are rarely seen on a normal basis. They have countless books and literature on the history of Hyrule and are the most knowledgeable about the world, magic, and combat. The elders are the only ones in all of Hyrule other than Ganondorf who are familiar with the ancient Hylian Language, far different from the modern dialect.

So we basically know at this point that the Sheikah and Gerudo are at each other's throats and the Sheikah kind of sort of know Link's quest isn't as heroic as he thinks it is.  Mayhaps we can do something like...Link goes to talk to the Sheikah to get their cog and they turn him down (reason being their knowledge of Link's quest and because they just can't get the !@#$% into their own temple because it's sealed with a raging beast inside.)  As a result, Link contacts Ganondorf by some magical means (we still haven't figured out how that's gonna work yet) to inform him who could say something along the lines of, "They wouldn't let someone of your skill have the cog? How insulting.  Seek out my people, they will give you the tools you need to overcome the Sheikah" effectively pitting the player against the Sheikah.  Then we could go off and get the Fire & Ice arrows from the Gerudo, who LOVE the idea of Link going after the Sheikah.  Link fights his way through the Sheikah to get to the elders, who eventually decide to allow Link into the temple.

This is what I've come up with for a premise. Has some holes and whatnot in it, and I'm not entirely sure what would convince the Sheikah to let Link into the temple all of a sudden.  Thoughts?

EDIT: Also, I can't remember what characters we've come up with and approved for this part.  I know we have Abigail so far.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Kami on July 15, 2013, 09:34:27 pm
Since I doubt the sheikah would want to risk the raging beast getting out and link getting into it for his less than noble quest, I'm thinking that link could instead when he gets to where the elders are supposed to be it could be all empty and something in the room could hint to a secret passageway which when link opens it he would go in and find the elders who are surprised he has found them during a secret meaning walking in when they are talking about what they should do with the unsealing ritual scroll for the temple, and then well since they can't do anything against link being the village elders link kinda takes the scroll and goes and uses it to break the seal of the temple and go inside.

well that's my thoughts since the shiekah won't just give it away link could probably have to take it from them which either way they aren't to thrilled with what's happening, and probably would send some sheikah to go after link, which he could probably encounter within the temple or something as a miniboss or single room thing that could show they aren't happy with link going after the cog and breaking into the temple and such.

Hmm, it's been awhile I need to look back that the charactors for the area since i'm not sure how long it's been since I looked at them so I can kinda help make it a little more detailed and fluent whatever we decide on doing for it.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on July 16, 2013, 02:39:34 pm
I don't think the shiekah will let Link into their temple at all... unless! They're trying to kill him. The shiekah could trap Link in the temple in order to have him attacked by the monster inside. Or, Link could merely sneak in, unauthorized. But I kinda like the maybe the good guys went too far idea of the Shiekah throwing Link into the dungeon to have him killed.



Anyway, we kinda need to figure out where everyone is first. My first thought being- how do the Gerudo feel, where are they, who do they follow? Have they turned to following Ganon? Do they remain loyal to Farin, and Link doesn't realize Ganon isn't Farin? Have they said, !@#$% men, we're leading ourselves?

We can do whatever, we just need to decide. So we should prolly figure out the problems with all of the above.

Having the Gerudo openly following Ganon makes the most sense to me right now because then this would keep up the pretense that Ganon is the real king, if the Gerudo treat him as the king. Upon Ganon's return, he saw his people were in the hands of a young king that wanted to restore his people's reputation and status- but, his methods were to try to make peace with the Shiekah and Hylians. This wasn't going well, as the Hylians were useless and never responded to his emissaries, and the Shiekah were still distrustful after so many years of war with the Gerudo.

Ganon plotted to frame Farin for a crime and have him executed, as Ganon appeared in the Gerudo city and claimed power, promising to restore the Gerudo's former status by crushing the Shiekah and overthrowing the Hylian empire. Farin escaped from the execution and fled the city, eventually finding his way to Hyrule town in pursuit of Ganon.

So this way, the Gerudo would be aware that their king is in Hyrule, and would support Link if he'd been given a mission by Ganon.

---

Another option is to have the Gerudo fail to realize that their king has been overthrown as well. Perhaps Farin left the Gerudo city and that's the last they heard, until Link comes back and says that the Gerudo king is in the castle, and he's working for him. So they'd be delighted to help Link, since he's working for - the Gerudo suppose- Farin, a good king.
Of course, Farin, on his way to meet the Hylians, had been attacked by Ganon, and his credentials stolen. Ganon beat him to Hyrule and claimed to be the king, and Farin, without credentials, couldn't prove he wasn't an imposter, so took up residence trying to disprove Ganon.

---

Or, we could have it that Ganon, back from beyond, waited until the next male Gerudo was born. Then, he stole the young child and cast him out into the desert, waited 30 or 40 years, and came to the Gerudo pretending to be the lost king. Farin, meanwhile, was raised by a shiekah hermit, and never told of his identity until he came of age. He sneaked into the Gerudo city to find Ganon, but was captured and sentenced to death as an imposter, trying to usurp the throne. Farin escaped, and pursued Ganon to Hyrule, continuing his crusade to unmask him there.

---

Or, perhaps Ganon doesn't want control over the Gerudo, he just needs to manipulate the Hylian Royalty. Therefore, he framed Farin for a crime and arranged for his execution. Farin escaped, and the Gerudo, without a leader, just decided Abigail was enough, and follow her exclusively. They are willing to help Link just because he is working against the Shiekah, so Link's aims align with the Gerudos'.



So one of those are where the Gerudo are. The Shiekah, we already defined better. They're engaged in a war with the Gerudo, over resources like water. There must be some reason they can't ask Hyrule for resources, since they're supposed to be allies. Are the shiekah enemies of Hyrule now? Are they just treated poorly, like the poor in the slums?

Anyway, the Shiekah are aware of the ancient history, and know that the cogs are used to open the door to the triforce. They are also aware that the Gerudo king in Hyrule is not the true Gerudo king. So when a Hylian comes looking for the cogs, they know something's up, and refuse to give it to him. They might not openly treat him hostilely, though. Or should they? Perhaps in some parts of the Shiekah settlement, he's treated neutrally, while he's not allowed in others.



Anyway, the big thing to decide after we figure out how everyone's allied, and how everyone will act, is what Link will do. We've always had him helping people, but he can't really help the shiekah, so he'll have to help the Gerudo, or nobody at all. The things we need to accomplish before the dungeon:

- Establish that the shiekah know what the cogs are for and don't support what Link is doing, because they know something about the Gerudo king that Link doesn't. Although, they can't openly reveal that the King is a fake. Or if they say "false king" or something, leave it ambiguous enough that it could be interpreted as they just don't support his right to rule. Which, neither do the Hylians, since they seem to have imposed sanctions on the Gerudo, forcing them to starve in the desert.

- Have Link meet the Gerudo, show that they're poor because of the Hylians, facing similar things to the poor in the slums. Evoke some sympathy.

- But also, we can't make the shiekah out to just be evil and imposing on the Gerudo, since we need to start instilling doubt about Ganon in the player's mind. So show their side of the story, whatever it is, also.

- Have Link get the fire and ice arrows.

- Have some sort of interaction with the Hero's Ghost. This might be a good time for him to reveal a little more, and create more doubt about Ganon.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on July 16, 2013, 06:25:11 pm
First off, glad to see you back, Kami!

Max, I haven't read your entire post yet (I gotta comment on Kami's still too), but just skimming it, the Gerudo currently follow Abigail.

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well that's my thoughts since the shiekah won't just give it away link could probably have to take it from them which either way they aren't to thrilled with what's happening, and probably would send some sheikah to go after link

I def agree with something along these lines.  The Gerudo are supposed to give Link the Fire & Ice arrows, so they should be utilized to enter the temple.  Maybe they're used to break/weaken the seal
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on July 18, 2013, 03:10:18 pm
Ok, read the rest, here are my thoughts:

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Or, perhaps Ganon doesn't want control over the Gerudo, he just needs to manipulate the Hylian Royalty. Therefore, he framed Farin for a crime and arranged for his execution. Farin escaped, and the Gerudo, without a leader, just decided Abigail was enough, and follow her exclusively. They are willing to help Link just because he is working against the Shiekah, so Link's aims align with the Gerudos'.

This one currently fits the best with current character designs.  I would imagine Abigail to be in a similar position of power as Nabooru.  This would make her second in command, with her only superior being the king.  Considering the absence of the king, this would make her first in command. 

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- But also, we can't make the shiekah out to just be evil and imposing on the Gerudo, since we need to start instilling doubt about Ganon in the player's mind. So show their side of the story, whatever it is, also.

We never actually established this, unfortunately.  We've always said there is just a rivalry between them.  Maybe the beast sealed in the temple has a connection to the Gerudo?  Possibly summoned/created by them to attack the Sheikah in hopes of claiming their land?
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Kami on July 18, 2013, 10:13:46 pm
Though I recall the beast that I ended up making, was more of a break everything in it's path, they possibly summoned it, but since it doesn't obey anybody it just went off to do it's thing, and the sheikah happen to be close by so it could of unintentionally did what it was supposed to and go terrorise the sheikah or a while, but ends up failing since they sealed it away in their temple and such, so they wouldn't call it a victory I guess. Which would show that the gerudo initiated the conflict, or started it back up. And at this point since it's been so long most don't even remember why they are fighting each other aside for land, even though on the sheikah's end it was originally, and since nobody except the really old elders know the full story, it's more so turned into
a kinda land war that the sheikah wanted to avoid.

And my thoughts on the other mentioned things is that I think Ganon is just letting his people do whatever, since I think that they wouldn't know that ganon was the one who ended up throwing him in the desert to fend for himself and when he grew able went after ganon to hyrule's castle city.

and even though the sheikah are allies with hylians, due to maybe some political tensions, or that hylians find themselves more important than the 'poor' desert dwelling sheikah. So that could possibly prevent the hylians from even listening to pleas for help and such with the hylians egos which could have been started by ganon himself to hinder the sheikah who know the truth.

and I went and did a look back on Abigail since it says something along the lines of her opening up the proving grounds for link to earn the fire and ice arrows to unseal the temple, I agree that it should be used to break the weakened seal for the temple. and when link is about to open up the temple he is ambushed by a group of remaining sheikah but then the door opens and they flee in different directions since all anybody remembers about the temple, is that opening it is deadly bad luck for everyone around it.

That's about all I can think of at the moment.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on July 21, 2013, 01:49:28 pm
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This one [Gerudo are led by Abigail alone] currently fits the best with current character designs.  I would imagine Abigail to be in a similar position of power as Nabooru.  This would make her second in command, with her only superior being the king.  Considering the absence of the king, this would make her first in command.

Cool, this fits with what I proposed in Farin's NPC topic, and I kinda liked that backstory :p  So the Gerudo cast Farin out when he was younger, due to Ganon framing him for a crime. They've been led by female warlords ever since.

This also gives us the opportunity to throw in some confusion if Link meets a Gerudo who says they have no king, because Ganon is supposed to be representing them. The player might think, hmm, that's suspicious. I think it might work out well if Ganon doesn't directly tell Link to go find the Gerudo, because he does risk them revealing that he isn't the king if Link does see them. Maybe Link should find them on his own.


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We never actually established this, unfortunately.  We've always said there is just a rivalry between them.  Maybe the beast sealed in the temple has a connection to the Gerudo?  Possibly summoned/created by them to attack the Sheikah in hopes of claiming their land?

This is actually good news, I was kind of getting a headache trying to figure out what they were fighting over and how that would all work out. What about this: The shiekah's mission, given to them ages ago, was to enforce the Gerudo's exile. So that's why the Gerudo dislike them, and also why they stay out of things in Hyrule, they're busy in death valley, protecting the only passage into the desert.

Or there could be something else. Maybe the Hylians don't like them because they're poor, and they're ignored with the rest of the races of Hyrule, as Kami suggested. The shiekah resent this, but they're so loyal to the royal family that they won't leave death valley.

Or something else. I feel like maybe we can adapt whatever their conflict is to whatever gameplay problem / quest we're gonna have Link do.


Quote from: Kami
and then well since they can't do anything against link being the village elders link kinda takes the scroll and goes and uses it to break the seal of the temple and go inside.

Personally, I don't like the idea of having the shiekah refuse to do anything to Link. I picture them as very willing to take matters into their own hands to protect their temple, their duty, and the triforce. Especially if, as we discussed a while ago, we have shiekah do so much as pursue Link to his final reunion with Ganon... although I guess we didn't finalize that, I just remember discussing it :p

Anyway, point being, I think the shiekah should kick ass.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on July 23, 2013, 12:14:09 am
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This is actually good news, I was kind of getting a headache trying to figure out what they were fighting over and how that would all work out. What about this: The shiekah's mission, given to them ages ago, was to enforce the Gerudo's exile. So that's why the Gerudo dislike them, and also why they stay out of things in Hyrule, they're busy in death valley, protecting the only passage into the desert.

Ok, this is pretty !@#$% cool.  The Sheikah are at a constant issue of how to get rid of the Gerudo after the war and the Gerudo are at a constant issue of how to get rid of the Sheikah to protect themselves.  At this point, it's gone beyond that and is now also to gain control of the entire desert. 

Maybe the arrival of Link in the desert is in itself the Sheikah's conflict (or builds on their conflict with the Gerudo).  They know damn well what Link is up to, so maybe they could turn on him upon meeting with them.  Link would have to escape into the desert to avoid them, maybe with some subtle help from the Hero?
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on July 26, 2013, 12:41:53 am
Good point, the Shiekah don't really need a problem, because Link isn't gonna help them- they're antagonists right now. They seem to be succeeding in their task of keeping the Gerudo out of Hyrule anyway.

The Gerudo need some problem that Link can immediately solve for them. What would be cool is if Link helps them, and then it isn't all sunshine and puppies like when he helps the Zora or Gorons. Maybe the Gerudo, even though they're downtrodden and remind Link of his poor people back home, aren't nice.

Perhaps the Gerudo have a problem, and by solving it for them, Link causes a young Shiekah boy to be captured. Feeling really bad about this, Link helps him escape (some Gerudo could say that this reminds them of when the last King escaped, referencing Farin). Through this helping, then going back, it cements the sentiment of "wait, who should we trust?", and Link can acquire the fire and ice arrows as he escapes.

For that one to work, Link would have to encounter the Shiekah first, and then be turned away by them, so he initially thinks they're bad guys and wants to help the oppressed Gerudo.

Then he'd go to the Gerudo town, and meet Abigail, who'd be nice to him and work up sympathy just before they're "attacked". A masked Shiekah apparently stole some important maps or something and disarmed three guards before running into the desert.

Link, trying to help, chases the Shiekah and defeats him, only to find that it's just a kid. The kid explains: "these are maps of my city's infrastructure, the Gerudo are planning to destroy a tunnel the underground river goes through, which will divert the Shiekah water supply and we'll all die". But before Link can do anything, the Gerudo show up and capture the kid. Abigail takes his weapon, the fire and ice arrows, and the Gerudo, Shiekah hostage in tow, return to their city.

Link now has a choice- the Shiekah seem bad, oppressing the Gerudo and trapping them in the desert. But the Gerudo plan to execute a kid who was trying to save his people. Link decides to save the kid. He goes back to the Gerudo city, and finds the fire and ice arrows, and steals them.

The Gerudo have the kid tied to a pole in the center of a courtyard. As Link arrives on the second level, looking down into the courtyard, they light a fire to burn the kid at the stake. However, Link can freeze the flames with the ice arrows. The Gerudo are confused, and Link can go around and shoot the ropes with the fire arrows, allowing the kid to escape. The Gerudo are now furious, Abigail especially, who drops her guise of being sweet to reveal her bloodthirsty, vengeful nature. She screams about how this is just like the king, escaping fate! the shiekah kid runs past Link, telling him to meet him at the place where the Gerudo are planning to divert the underground river.

Link goes to meet the kid there, and they stop the Gerudo. The kid thanks Link, and uses a secret entrance to get into the tunnels that lead to the Shiekah city. Link now can use these tunnels himself to sneak into the Shiekah city.

He does so, and evades notice for a while, but is inevitably caught by the Shiekah, who recognize him as the one who was looking for the cogs. They take him to the elders, who confer, the agree- he can go into the temple. One of the elders- Seere, who is obviously looked down on as crazy by the others- volunteers to escort him.

Seere walks Link into the entrance. He tells Link that he's had visions of doom for the past months, and terrible nightmares of cogs. "They must not be used for evil, and I senses that you are pivotal in all of this, Link. You might bring great salvation to Hyrule..." At this point, Seere opens the door to the temple and pushes Link in. "Or great doom. Good luck!" And Seere leaves and closes the door.

Link, trapped in the dungeon, is attacked by the monster. He can use the fire and ice arrows to fend it off, but not destroy it. Once the monster turns away, Link can explore the dungeon.



The only thing with this one is that it doesn't involve the Hero very much...
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Mirby on July 28, 2013, 08:22:34 am
Well I think Link can do some things on his own without the help of the Hero, right?

Plus if this is the final normal part before the finale in the Celestial Clock...
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on August 22, 2013, 05:18:40 am
Alright, my finals are done so I'm alive again!

Let's see, I like this for the most part.  We do need the hero involved somehow.  I think I mentioned somewhere that they have a brief battle in the Valley of Death or whatever the hell it's called?  I might have mentioned that at the end of the Goron arch.

EDIT: Yea, check this post http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=40714.msg444561#msg444561

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Well I think Link can do some things on his own without the help of the Hero, right?

Yea, def don't think we're gonna be looking for the hero to help the player
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on October 09, 2013, 05:00:41 pm
Holy crap. School. Every once in a while   Check ZFGC to see if this project has progressed anyway, but I can't complain about lack of progress if im not contributing :p

So, I think we left off trying to figure out what's gonna happen with the Shiekah and Gerudo, which is the toughest bit because they're so connected to the overall plot that we can't do some isolated problem. We've established that the two tribes are fighting, Shiekah to eradicate the Gerudo or at least keep them away from Hyrule, the Gerudo fighting for survival as well as fueled a little bit by vengeance, so maybe we should establish some attitudes?

I feel like the Shiekah are proud, and feel like they're doing their job. They're supposed to protect Hyrule and serve the royal family, which they're doing because the royal family is large and in charge and there's no war. However, the Shiekah kind of need to be blinded, because they're supposed to be semi-omniscient too. Sin they don't know about Ganon's plans, they must have a reason to be missing. I figure pride is a good one. We could play that to have a small faction who isn't following the prideful leadership, and is worried about the Gerudo, but they're stifled a little bit. Seere would be a good person in this, because he's got those visions of doom.

The Gerudo's attitude could be however we want, we could cast them as beaten down in exile, nearly holding onto survival, or proud and vengeful, which is how they've been traditionally. I'm kinda thinking start out with them beaten down and sympathetic, because we are gonna have Link in opposition to the Shiekah since he wants their cog.

So how will this affect what actually happens?

Since the Gerudo are led by Abigail and know nothing of Ganon, and having exiled Farin when he was young, Ganon wouldn't want Link to meet them, he'd risk becoming exposed. Therefore, Link is initially going after the Shiekah. The only wild card powerful enough the affect Ganon's schemes at this point is the Hero's Ghost. So if Ganon wants link to avoid the Gerudo and he doesn't, then the Hero has to cause that alteration.

So Link initially goes to the Shiekah, who 1) will refuse to give him the cog, and 2) shouldn't be openly hostile yet. Perhaps Link can meet their leader pretty immediately after journeying to their city, and their leader pridefully declares that there are no problems in Hyrule, everything is as it should be. Seere, an aged advisor, starts to object, but Prideful leader silences him and sends Link away, sealing him out of the Shiekah city. However, Seere sends Link a message- meet him at X place. Link goes there, and finds it to be the entrance to the Shiekah temple. However, before Seere arrives, the Hero steps out from behind a pillar and engages Link.

This battle can be won through destroying some structure that, although the Hero is deterred from killing Link, Link is dropped into an underground river or slides down a mountain or something to create a way into the Gerudo desert.

Down in the desert, Link meets the Gerudo, and eventually converses with Abigail. Finding out that Link opposes the Shiekah instantly earns their trust.

From here, we've gotta get Link the fire arrows, make him distrust the Gerudo as well as Shiekah, and then get him back to the temple's entrance.


Or also, we can go with that idea   Had a couple posts ago, of Link being turned away by the Shiekah, and then helping the Gerudo to capture a Shiekah kid, but then instead of just walking into the desert, a battle with the Hero somehow facilitates that, bringing him into it.


Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on October 10, 2013, 08:43:15 pm
Ahh glad to see we're back in business! I was getting worried haha!

Ok so!  I like this new idea better than the child idea.  This one seems more...interesting. 

As for the fire arrows, I THINK the original idea was to have him get them from the Gerudo Training Grounds, but I could be mistaken. 

Placing mistrust into Link for the Gerudo could be easy, could be hard.  Maybe what we can do is hint at him that the Gerudo are up to no good.  As confirmation, Link could sneak into Abigail's quarters at night and overhears some plan that the Gerudo have against Hyrule or something.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Theforeshadower on October 11, 2013, 05:12:59 am
You guys should use the easy albiet cliche "note falling from pocket" trick.  Have a note describing some coming event or whatever that the Gerudo are about to due that is pretty nasty.  Link finds it and bam!  plot hole covered.

What the note says it upto you guys.  :3
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on October 12, 2013, 07:42:28 pm
OR maybe Link could pickpocket the note from a Gerudo!  Let's say he's just walking around the fortress and decides he wants to test out his thieving skills against a real band of thieves?  One of the Gerudo in the fortress has a note to be delivered to Abigail.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on October 14, 2013, 03:23:02 pm
Alright, so basically what we're heading toward is this?:

Shiekah are met first, and initially present themselves as pompous and arrogant. They obviously won't let Link anywhere near the cog since they know to protect it, and they also think that there's no danger in Hyrule, since the Gerudo are still kept out. Link makes no progress there, but then is led into the desert by the Hero's spirit.

In the desert, the Gerudo initially seem beat-down by the Shiekah, and Link sympathizes. He meets with Abigail and perhaps they work out a deal, he'll help them because he likes helping people, and because helping them attack the shiekah will allow him to get close to the cog.

However, Link finds a note that somehow makes him realize the Gerudo aren't as sympathetic as he thought. He probably realizes this too late however, because the Gerudo's attack still allows him to get into the Shiekah temple.


So here's how I'm thinking this will work: the Hero's Ghost, at their last encounter, fought Link, but at the end, elected not to destroy him. Maybe he can intentionally lead Link to the Gerudo -subtly, but not so subtly you don't know it's the hero, and the player can get the impression that the Hero isn't completely antagonistic.

In the desert, Link will meet the Gerudo, who are never trustful. He'll have to prove his strength and dedication to opposing the shiekah by climbing and battling his way through the ancient, abandoned, booby-trapped shiekah outpost and claiming the treasure at its top (or deep within it), the fire and ice arrows. Or something along these lines, maybe the fire and ice arrows are a Gerudo reward for proving his dedication some other way.

Either way, Link joins them and provides some essential service to help them attack the shiekah city, under the impression that he will help the Gerudo gain their freedom as well as get a chance to find his "gear thingy" as Abigail puts it. Maybe Link uses the fire and ice arrows to open a path the Gerudo couldn't take before. However, as they're preparing their attack, Link finds out that they're planning more than just getting their freedom and leaving the desert- they're planning on killing all the shiekah. Link tries to stop them, but the Gerudo go through with their attack anyway and breach the shiekah's walls.

During the confusion of the battle, Link can gain access to the Shiekah temple. He finds Seere at the entrance, how talks to Link, saying that he's seen him in visions. He might bring great destruction, or salvation- only the path of shadow will show the truth: and he opens the gate to the shadow temple, and pushes Link in- initiating the first battle with the boss, which Link can't destroy the boss, but can fend him off.

Anyway, that's one idea. Any others/critique?
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on October 19, 2013, 04:06:24 pm
I think what we can do with the fire and ice arrows is use it to open paths in the Shiekah's fortress.  The Shiekah stored them in the abandoned outpost and the Gerudo send Link to retrieve them to prove his worth.  Then Link can use them after he learns what the Gerudo are really up to to make his way through the fortress to get to the Shadow Temple.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on October 25, 2013, 09:15:20 pm
As we're falling behind in our activity here, I'm going to finalize some things.

Quote
Shiekah are met first, and initially present themselves as pompous and arrogant. They obviously won't let Link anywhere near the cog since they know to protect it, and they also think that there's no danger in Hyrule, since the Gerudo are still kept out. Link makes no progress there.

The Hero's Ghost confronts Link and fights him.  At the end of the battle, Link is defeated, but escapes into the desert.  The Hero elects to not finish him.

In the desert, Link meets the Gerudo.  The Gerudo initially seem beat-down by the Shiekah, and Link sympathizes. He meets with Abigail and perhaps they work out a deal, he'll help them because he likes helping people, and because helping them attack the shiekah will allow him to get close to the cog.

Link is to prove his worth by going to one of the major Shiekah outposts, long abandoned.  Fighting his way through traps and creatures, he finds the Fire and Ice Arrows, which were left there by the Shiekah.  He brings them back and turns them over to the Gerudo.  Abigail explains to Link that the Fire and Ice arrows were designed by the Shiekah and are used as a key on many locks in their fortress.  They begin preparing to storm the fortress. 

While further exploring the Gerudo Hideout, Link decides he wants to test his thieving skills against a real thief to see how far he's come.  He notices a high ranking Gerudo and pick pockets her, getting a hold of a note.  The note is from Abigail herself and it detailed the attack against the Shiekah.  It also contained the horrible things that the Gerudo were planning to do with the Shiekah once they were defeated. 

With his mind now torn and conflicted, he decides to go to the Shiekah Fortress just to see what was going on.  Just before he leaves, he is attacked by the Gerudo he stole from.

"You didn't honestly think I wouldn't notice, did you?"

Link defeats her in battle and quickly goes to the Shiekah Fortress, which he finds under attack by the Gerudo.  Fighting his way through both Gerudo and Shiekah, he finds a path leading to the temple.  Using Fire and Ice arrows, he is able to unlock a number of doors leading through parts of the fortress that haven't been opened for years, some parts crawling with Redead. 

He reaches the temple but can't open it.  He turns around and is confronted by Seere, who somehow survived the slaughter outside.

He talks to Link, saying that he's seen him in visions. He might bring great destruction, or salvation- only the path of shadow will show the truth: and he opens the gate to the shadow temple, and pushes Link in- initiating the first battle with the boss, which Link can't destroy the boss, but can fend him off.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Theforeshadower on October 26, 2013, 04:07:19 am
Weird Question:
Is the player actually going to be killing people?  Other than main villains, most human enemies(except some 2d games) flee once their health is gone.

Probably off-topic for this section, but I felt it was a necessary one to ask after I read Steve's last post.

The other possibility is to make them go unconscious similar to firing arrows at the heads of the Gerudo in OoT.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on October 26, 2013, 04:20:42 am
We could just knock em out, really.  I don't think Link is in the business of killing human foes, but he will push them to the side when needed.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Theforeshadower on October 26, 2013, 04:59:25 am
Now, if you really wanted to integrate the entire thief Link aspect of the game:

During the battle between the Shiekah and Gerudo, Link shouldn't be spotted.  The player could receive a rating or something from the Hero or it could affect the battlefield.

Actually, the idea of a time limit because of the battle going on would probably be the best way to handle something like that.  Battles do not go on for an infinite time frame.  Perhaps, the player should be encouraged to sneak around(this can be done with well placed boulders, trees, etc) so as to be able to reach and complete the shrine within the time limit.  Otherwise, leaving the shrine/temple could be difficult depending on which side won the battle.

I think it adds an interesting aspect to the story which provides three different endings to the scenario and in-effect could open up multiple endings depending on which side won, regardless if you get the cog or not.

Just letting my brain work, I guess.  :/ 
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on October 26, 2013, 01:36:51 pm
Steve, I just want you to know that since you've had such a consistent avatar for so long,  I imagine you as Sephiroth sitting behind a desk programming all day. It's kinda a strange mind picture, but anyway...


A couple things I was thinking about for this bit of plot:

Maybe changing "Link meets the Gerudo" to "Link is captured by the Gerudo". This way, their hostile and defensive personality is initially shown, but we quickly sympathize with them when they explain their situation and we visit their settlement.

After Link brings the arrows, I don't know why they'd let him keep them. So I was thinking something like this: after Link gets the arrows, the Gerudo take them and start preparing to go. Link has a few tasks to assist in the preparations, the last of which is to collect n number of things, maybe the keys to the storehouses where the catapults or some other weapons are stored, or telescopes or something else- however, only n-1 are readily available. The last one can only be found by picking the lock of high-ranking Gerudo's personal treasure chest. Inside, Link finds the last item, but also the note. It just seemed a bit weird and difficult to communicate that Link "decided to test himself". Maybe if there were some other way of getting Link to decide this, but with outside influence, since Link can't talk, we need somebody to tell him to get a hold of this letter, or for it to happen by accident.

Anyway, either way, I feel like having Link help prepare for the attack might be good, because it could introduce some plot stuff as he explores the Gerudo settlement.

Then when Link chases the Gerudo to the Shiekah fortress, all the Gerudo would have fire and ice arrows, because the Gerudo reverse engineered them somehow. Maybe this isn't an important plot bit, but I was thinking that Link was kind of like Prometheus here, bringing fire down to men. Then men, or in this case women because they're Gerudo, would have the fire and ice arrows to do as they pleased.

So then when Link arrives at the scene, he would have to grab some fire and ice arrows off a Gerudo supply cart or something. I guess gameplay wise, it might be better if Link kept them the whole time, though. Plus, the player would get comfortable with using them while helping prepare the Gerudo attack.

So then also, I was thinking that when he got to the Shiekah fortress, he would have to battle Abigail. Link first has to chase Abigail through the battle, which would be a cool way to keep the time the player is going through the conflict to a minimum, add even more urgency to the situation, and keep link's route linear. Link would be timed in his to make sure he followed her before a wall collapses, or to get up a ladder before it catches fire, etc.. Then when he catches up, it would be a cool battle above the conflict, perhaps with parts of the battle interrupting Link and Abigail's.

I think this would kind of be an alternative to having a timed stealth component. It'd still be timed, but more like the race against Dampè in ocarina of time, but instead of doors randomly closing, there'd be a big battle evolving around you and affecting the landscape.

Anyway, I think this bit of the game is coming together really nicely, it's exciting.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on October 26, 2013, 02:25:03 pm
I like both of your ideas here!  I think the addition of sneaking around the battle will be great and Max's modifications are spot on.  I'd be more than ok with using these!

So with that, I think we can move on to what happens after the temple is finished.

Link defeats the boss, releasing the curse/seal/whatevs on the temple.  In the depths of the temple, 5 shiekah warriors are awakened (they were sealed due to the curse).  They all exit the temple to find the battle outside still going on.  The 5 warriors step forward to enter the battle (cue power rangers theme? LOL).  They quickly defeat the Gerudo and send them running back to the desert.  In a bit of a twist for the Gerudo, a seal is placed on the desert by the Shiekah warriors, keeping them from escaping again.

The Shiekah now aware that something is wrong in Hyrule, they now trust Link for helping them and reward him with the final cog.

Thoughts, opinions, changes?  If we're good here, we can move onto Chapter 6.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on October 27, 2013, 10:17:52 pm
Cool, but how do these ideas work with each other? There's a timed deadline thing either way, that's for sure. But theforeshadower was thinking of sneaking around, avoiding the battle, while I was thinking mad dash right through the thick of the battle, with the carnage affecting your path as you're hot on Abigail's heels (then if you didn't catch her, it'd do that like doddlydoodlydo black start over screen like when racing Dampe in OOT). I think both could work well, although my personal preference is for a mad dash, because the frantic pacing fits better with a battle in my opinion than a careful, avoid people stealth. I don't think many people would particularly notice some kid sneaking around when there's a huge battle going on anyway, their attention is probably on "woah this Gerudo is trying to kill me hold on a second!"

I think having a different outcome could be awesome, though, based on decisions you could make while chasing Abigail. Like, she'd run across a bridge, which might collapse, so you could either push a Gerudo out of the way to get through, or shoot a fire arrow at a shiekah blockade to burn it out of your way. At the end of the chase sequence, the game would tally up which side you've assisted more, and add something either way. That's a really sweet idea, and it'd take a lot of careful design, but would pay off to be probably one of the most epic moments in the game, dynamically sprinting through a battle evolving around you.


Anyway, about the ending of the dungeon, I feel like that's a little discontinuitous. I mean, where did these 5 warriors come from? Why haven't we heard of them before? It just seems a little deus-ex-machina to me. And then the part about the seal seems a little off too- I mean, the Gerudo obviously aren't good, but we've also shown that they're the ones being oppressed by the shiekah. I think the ending needs to, in typical happy ending style, give them a peaceful resolution instead of "this side wins."

I remember one idea we had before was that Link completes the dungeon, slays the beast, and finds the cog. He then leaves the Shiekah dungeon, but it pursued by Shiekah warriors. He seems to lose them, and heads back to Hyrule castle to meet Ganon. Unfortunately, shiekah warriors tracked him, and a showdown between the warriors vs. Link and Ganon takes place. At the end of this conflict, Zelda and Faron arrive on the scene, the truth about Ganon comes out. Link sides with Faron, but Ganon takes the cogs and flees.

We might have had other ideas, but I just remember this one :p

I'd prefer it to Link siding with the shiekah because it's less deus ex machina esque, and allows the ambiguous ending of the Shiekah vs Gerudo conflict to carry into the next part of the game, which is really just a continuation of it. Who IS right, Ganon or the Hylians? I mean, everybody's somewhat in the wrong, and I think that shade of grey kind of defines this game, rather than good guys vs. bad guys. I also thought Link battling on a team with Ganon would be kinda bad-ass.

Any other ending ideas, though?
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on October 28, 2013, 09:42:06 pm
Yea, I kinda pulled the end sequence out of my ass xD

It was my attempt at tying up the battle that the player runs through before hand.  It has to end somehow but having the player come out to see it has concluded seems a little anti climactic.  It should somehow connect with the player finishing the dungeon.

The Shiekah pursuing Link is totally fine as it's unrelated to the battle ending.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on October 30, 2013, 06:18:03 am
Hmm, I'd actually kinda thought that the important part of the battle wasn't the battle itself, but the fact that both sides were kinda wrong, kinda right, and the resulting ambiguous carnage was kinda Link's fault for facilitating. And the player would be going into the dungeon with a battle starting up, both sides fighting. Then they'd come out to see the Shiekah city is suddenly now destroyed, both sides have taken heavy losses.

I kinda thought that the lapse in entering the dungeon vs exiting allows us to show the extremes of the battle, and it's more of a shock when the player is like, holy crap, this was a beautiful temple before I went in, now it's half destroyed and the people who lived here are all missing. Seemed more shocking to me than watching the progress unfold.

We could probably get the best of both worlds, though. Link enters the temple in the heat of the battle as it's starting. If the player wants to leave the temple partway through, the only exit doesn't go back into the battlefield, and seeing what happened will be impossible until the player completes the dungeon. Then once the player beats the boss and gets the cog, they'll be taken back out into he Shiekah city and see the aftermath of the battle- a smoky ruin of a once grand landscape, everything's destroyed and everyone has lost in some way or another, and Link is one of the responsible parties. And what's more, he didn't even try to stop the fighting, he just used it to his advantage to steal a cog.

However, the battle isn't quite over. Depending on which side Link helped out more before the dungeon, there will be a quick scene of that side "winning". If it's the Shiekah, they have Abigail tied up and they throw her in a cell, and the remaining Gerudo are gathered up to be marched back to the desert. If the Gerudo "won", then you'll see the Shiekah elders surrendering to Abigail, and being marched into their own cells by the Gerudo. Link views this from a height at the temple's entrance and can't interact with this, though. When the scene is over, however, a small squad of surviving Shiekah see Link, and start chasing him. Link has to escape from Death Valley, at which point it appears he's lost the Shiekah.

He goes back to Hyrule castle and climbs to the balcony of Ganon's quarters, where he is going to hand over the cogs, but those Shiekah catch up to him. They demand the cog back, and of course Ganon refuses, and a fight happens, where Link and Ganon work together to incapacitate the Shiekah.


What about this way of combining them? I don't really think the scenes of either side "winning" are as good as they could fully get to, but I'm a lil' tired right now to even proofread myself, so we can always alter everything.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on October 30, 2013, 02:05:05 pm
Alrighty, I can agree that neither side should win.  As for one side "winning", how will we determine that?  If Link is going to chase Abigail, then what is the condition for one side being "victorious?"  Maybe we can take a count of everyone Link knocks out on the way and whichever side has more casualties will be the loser.  We can shove npcs in Link's path while he's chasing and can have the option of knocking them out or bypassing them.

As for leaving the temple, like you said, we'll need another exit.  Additionally, we'll need to make sure the player can't enter the Valley of Death again.  They need to enter the temple again from the alternative exit.  Maybe we can put a few Gerudo or Shiekah guards at the entrance to the Valley and they'll tell Link he can't enter at this time.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on October 30, 2013, 05:29:52 pm
One think I just realized is- why is Link even chasing Abigail? One idea is perhaps Link knows from the letter he stole that Abigail is going to kill the Shiekah elder, the wisest of their leaders. Link, feeling guilty that he got the Gerudo the arrows to get to this point, goes to stop her. When he arrives on the scene, she is just about to depart from her troops to find him herself, and Link chases her.

Then, for victory, this is what I was thinking:

As you're chasing Abigail, for example, she'd run across a bridge, which might collapse, so you have two paths to continue after her, you could knock out a Gerudo who's firing arrows at some Shiekah and cross the bridge she was guarding, or shoot a fire arrow at a shiekah blockade to burn it out of your way. At the end of the chase sequence, the game would tally up which side you've assisted more.

Then, the end of the chase would be altered either way. You catch up to Abigail as she finds the Shiekah elder? If you helped more Gerudo, then the elder will call upon his body guards, and Abigail will say, ha, it seems they've busy losing the battle. Or in the other case, the elder will say, oh so you came alone? Or did all your reinforcements lose to my warriors? Either way, they'll start to fight, and Abigail will shoot a fire arrow Link's way, burning down the path to get to them to interfere.

Link will have only one other path to take, and down it lies the entrance to the temple, and Seere guarding it. He says his line about "you could bring salvation or Hyrule- or damnation, and pushes Link into the temple and seals the entrance. More on how the entering will work in a minute.

Then when Link beats the boss and comes back out of the temple, Seere is standing at the temple's entrance, looking down on the battlefield. Whoever's side you helped more, that leader (Abigail or the elder) has just defeated the other in battle. Their second-in-command is talking to them. Seere explains the situation to Link:

[Whichever] has been defeated, but both sides suffered so much loss that the Shiekah can't hold the desert pass, but the Gerudo can't advance anymore and are retreating. The Shiekah city/fortress is in ruins. Seere says something like "I don't blame you for this, you just added a spark into years and years of kindling. In fact, I'm still not sure whether you're destroying Hyrule or bringing about the healing we've been needing for ages. But that's just me- these guys, they definitely think you're to blame." And several Shiekah warriors jump into the scene. Link has to escape the ruined Shiekah fortress to lose them.


So that's my opinion that the choices you make should only alter the plot slightly. Anyway, about the temple's entrances, I think we need even more background.

The Shiekah's job is to keep the Gerudo out. I imagine they do this by occupying the only pass in/out of the desert. Perhaps there are secret ways only Link can take, but the Gerudo people can't leave unless they go through this Shiekah fort. I watched Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood recently, and if you're familiar, it's a concept like Briggs fortress in my imagination.

Link isn't even thinking about going past this fortress into the desert when he goes to the Sheikah fortress to find the cog, but due to interference from the Hero's Ghost, link finds his way into the desert. As he comes back with the Gerudo's attack force with assistance from the fire and ice arrows, he comes into the fortress, which also guards the entrance to the Shiekah temple.

So, he's sealed into the Shiekah temple, along with the monster that's been creeping around in there forever. The monster attacks Link shortly after Link enters the dungeon, and in trying to escape, Link finds a secret exit out of the dungeon, which leads to the Hyrule side of the fortress. The only way back into the fortress is through this secret passage, and you can't even get back into the fortress, because the main entrance to the dungeon is sealed.

Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on November 03, 2013, 08:51:54 pm
Yea, the letter would state what Abigail is up to.

So, we'll have various "Events" at points throughout the chase which the player will be given an option to help one side or the other (such as the bridge example).

The escape from the fortress after the temple could be interesting too.  I see this as being the most difficult challenge to Link's thief abilities.  The twist on it will be the fact that the Shiekah are chasing you.

Now one other issue:  If the temple has a secret exit, why is it that the boss who has been sealed inside hasn't been able to use this exit?  Maybe the seal besides physically keeping the doors shut, also barriers magically around the outside of the temple (kind of like the seal around Hyrule Castle that Ganon placed in Wind Waker).  Link exits the physical boundaries of the temple through the secret exit, but needs to break the magic part temporarily by maybe using a fire or ice arrow on it?  It could just create a hole in it that Link can pass through and then it repairs itself.
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: Max. on November 04, 2013, 04:19:05 pm
Yeah, good catch, I forgot about the fact that obviously the boss could just leave if there were another exit >.<
Shooting the arrows is a good plan, you'd have to hit something (or maybe two statues or whatever) with both arrows to open up a secret door, which only stays open for a short time. There's a similar mechanism on the other side of the door for when Link wants to go back in, 'cause he obviously can't go around to go in the main entrance.

So I guess we should put the escape from the Shiekah warriors and then confrontation with them and Ganon in the next chapter, which would be the last one before the epilogue?
Title: Re: Story Pass: Fifth Chapter
Post by: MG-Zero on November 04, 2013, 07:20:22 pm
Yup!  So, I guess that means this chapter is finished!

Quote
I imagine you as Sephiroth sitting behind a desk programming all day.

Dammit, my secrets out! :P

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