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Things done wrong in every 3d Zelda turned 2d

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Mamoruanime:
I've decided to make a short list (that I want people to add to FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE ADD TO THIS LIST) of things that every Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, etc in 2d has done wrong, and ways to solve the problem. It's more of a uh... what to avoid sort of thing, since we've had a new OoT2d crop up yearly here or there by somebody, either in public or private. Please note, this list is just kind of overall observances- of course there are ways to do these things properly. This just observes how they don't fit. These are just things I feel devs get hung up on when trying to make a 2d remake. Focus is on Ocarina of Time.

Identifying why Certain Mechanics Exist
This is important. A lot of times people try to justify having elements in their 2d versions that only exist to progress the 3d version in a way that makes sense only to that version. Don't be afraid to rework things to make sense for your version of the game. This is the basis behind each item in this list, especially the next one.

Trying to Make a 1:1 Conversion from 3d to 2d
This... Isn't possible. You have to make necessary changes and adaptations. Sometimes outright, completely different chunks and mechanics to the games to make it work. A good example is Z targeting in a Link to the Past or Link's Awakening style game. Some plotlines might need to be adapted to make things work.

Epona
Epona may work for ALttP, however in GB games (with a small screen and room size), it doesn't make sense to have her at all. Moosh and that other thing from the OoA/S games worked because they weren't fast travel- instead, they offered new mechanics to progress. Epona doesn't offer much in the way of progression in a 2d lttp/LA environment with the exception of crossing into Gerudo Valley, but even then- you can find other ways to allow the player to cross that bridge without her. Replace the race to get her with an Ingo milk drinking competition or something, and give Link a goddamned Roc's Feather.

Map Size
Often developers will try to make a huge 1:1 overworld. The problem with this is you end up with a lot of unimportant space. There's no real scope from the top down perspective. In Ocarina of Time, you could see things in the distance; know how far you had to go. Not every part of the map had to serve a purpose. In LA or ALttP style, 80% of the rooms on the map serve some form of purpose, or convey progression. A giant over world would feel boring. I feel the trick would be to condense the overworld portions, and rearrange some side quest elements through it to give it more importance.

Trying to Find a Place for EVERY NPC
This just can't work. Kokiri Forest for example has a LOT of NPCs that simply tell you about game mechanics that shouldn't exist in 2d. They could either be removed, or repurposed with different dialog- but keeping the same dialog or trying to replicate the mechanics that don't translate well would be a mistake.

The Adult/Child Link Conundrum
This is one thing that's always bothered me. For aLttP you *can* have an adult link, but he always looks very strange. Link's Awakening however, there's no way to have an adult link. How do you solve this? Well simple- Think of Adult Link Hyrule as a new map; like the Dark World. There are differences in it that allow you to progress certain places you couldn't before. There's no need for crawly holes because in the future they could just simply *not be there*.

So Many Items
The core items are nice, and they make sense. There are some however... that don't need to be brought over. This isn't necessarily a problem with 3d to 2d, but it's a general observation. Bottles for example don't need to exist in a GB port. There are ways to tighten up the item load and eliminate some additional event threads that have a harder time existing in 2d (planting those damned floaty plants for example in OoT). Things like the hover boots are a bit strange, because they can be used, but then the Iron Boots don't really fit in aLttP style. In LA style you could use the iron boots for platformer underwater segments easy. Even then, you can probably figure something out around this whole mechanic.

Making Ledges you Jump Across
No. No no no. Come up with another mechanic that works in 2d. This always feels gross and terrible. It's barely necessary in 3d. In Link's Awakening, there would be a switch to press that extends a bridge if it's 100% necessary to cross.

Ignoring the Established Mechanics of the Style you're Working With
This is the final, probably most important thing. If something doesn't fit in the world you're trying to cram the conversion into, you shouldn't do it. Come up with a more unique way to convey what they tried to convey in 3d. Make something that works for 2d. It can be completely new, or borrowed from the style of game you are working from, but don't take from the 3d version if it's something meant for 3d. Again, those little floaty plants are the best example. You're better off making them create holes in the ground with new grottos to give you the item they'd lead to.

Cassyblanca:
(Edit: By the way, those are a bunch of very good points).

This is less "3D to 2D mistake" and more "something everybody seems to do wrong/forget about when developing a fan game":

Zelda is about the goddamn dungeons and puzzles.
Too many people focus on "Add All The Items!" (here's looking at you, Community Project \o/), among other things, and never even get past a bland walking demo in an empty, uneventful area. Zelda is, and always has been, first and foremost about the dungeons - creative puzzles that have to be solved to progress. The dungeons don't exist so that the player can use the bombs to blow a hole through something - bombs exist because they add a puzzle element for the dungeons. Follow an agile system - design the dungeons, and implement support for items as they are needed in your dungeons.

Cassyblanca:
Incidentally, a comment on one of your suggestions:


--- Quote ---The Adult/Child Link Conundrum
This is one thing that's always bothered me. For aLttP you *can* have an adult link, but he always looks very strange. Link's Awakening however, there's no way to have an adult link. How do you solve this? Well simple- Think of Adult Link Hyrule as a new map; like the Dark World. There are differences in it that allow you to progress certain places you couldn't before. There's no need for crawly holes because in the future they could just simply *not be there*.
--- End quote ---

There's a problem with this one, I think. And that's whether or not the Adult/Child Link thing should even be implemented in the first place. In Ocarina of Time, it made sense because it was central to both the plot and mechanics of the game. But before you decide to implement adult/child Link forms, you should really think about whether or not you should. Does it really provide any measure of value to your project, or is it just a "feature" that exists because you kind of want to do it and maybe it'll push out you having to do any work on actual, meaningful content for a little longer? It works in Ocarina of Time because it's OoT's expression of the "two worlds" concept that it, Link to the Past and Link Between Worlds were built around. If you add adult/child link at all, it has got to be at least that important to your game. If you're going for the "two worlds" setup, maybe you could come up with a more unique thing between the worlds?

Mamoruanime:
<3 Cassy gets me~

Koh:

--- Quote from: Cassyblanca on February 06, 2015, 11:48:04 pm ---(Edit: By the way, those are a bunch of very good points).

This is less "3D to 2D mistake" and more "something everybody seems to do wrong/forget about when developing a fan game":

Zelda is about the goddamn dungeons and puzzles.
Too many people focus on "Add All The Items!" (here's looking at you, Community Project \o/), among other things, and never even get past a bland walking demo in an empty, uneventful area. Zelda is, and always has been, first and foremost about the dungeons - creative puzzles that have to be solved to progress. The dungeons don't exist so that the player can use the bombs to blow a hole through something - bombs exist because they add a puzzle element for the dungeons. Follow an agile system - design the dungeons, and implement support for items as they are needed in your dungeons.

--- End quote ---
Actually, Zelda is more about the exploration.  Miyamoto himself said the idea was spawned because he liked to explore nearby caves in his childhood. 

With that said, the fangames tend to fall into this trap a lot...

Overly Linear Gameplay Experience
There's nothing wrong with wanting to tell a good story, and it's something you should be doing if you're going to have a story anyway.  But there is a problem when the story gets in the way of actually exploring the world around you.  "Can't go here until you talk to this person, can't go there until you deliver this item to this guy." Zelda 1, A Link to the Past and A Link Between the Worlds are perfect examples of having a story (albeit a minimal one for the former two), while still allowing the player to have choices on where they can go next, and putting down a few roadblocks here and there.

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