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Author Topic: Series Direction Discussion  (Read 4430 times)

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Series Direction Discussion
« on: December 15, 2008, 08:42:38 pm »
  • Minalien
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This topic should be used for discussion about the direction of the tutorial series, so that we can keep the user survey separate.
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2008, 08:48:59 pm »
  • Minalien
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9) My main piece of advice is that the majority of the people you're dealing with have never coded before (which you know).  Instead of starting the tutorial with lesson 1 at programming, start it at the planning stages.  Most people need to know how to properly plan out a game and the basic mistakes to avoid to get their project off the ground and running.

In example, having your first game be a full feature Zelda Fan Game where you plan to recruit five other experienced team members should be discouraged. 
I completely understand where you are coming from with this, and I do agree that that was a fault with my previous tutorial series. Before, I simply wanted to provide a means to teach how to develop the game, without really focusing on the design aspect.

I do intend to pull design as a major focus, and will be making design-related tutorials a core part of the new series.



I also want to know what people are interested in using as development platforms. While I still want to teach C# and XNA, there are many options out there, such as teaching to use C++ and SDL, C++ and DirectX-based with DXUT (though this would be too advanced for many users here), or even using GarageGames.com's Torque Game Builder. I would greatly enjoy teaching the use of Torque Game Builder, because it would provide a happy medium between those who are used to tools such as MMF or Game Maker and those who wish to further their programming experience.

TorqueScript is relatively easy to learn and understand, and I believe I could make good progress on that front, and would be able to push my focus a lot more on the design aspect of the game. Basically, if I would go the Torque Game Builder route, the majority of the focus of the tutorial would be on designing an entertaining Zelda (or Zelda-like adventure) game, while using Torque as a sort of "proof of concept" system, to show the concepts that I have taught in the design tutorials, while still teaching enough of Torque that those who are brand new to the system are not left in the dark.



Another issue that I wish to discuss is whether to carry this on as a "How to design a Zelda Game" tutorial series, or to make it a "How to design a Zelda-like adventure game" series. Doing the former would be a strong bolster to the theme of the community, which I believe is incredibly important to strive for, but the latter would allow a focus that would allow members following my tutorials to spread out away from themes related strictly to Zelda.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 08:52:54 pm by Minalien »
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2008, 12:57:04 am »
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It'd be great if you could start these up again.
As for development platforms, I'd like to see it made in the torque game builder myself, as you said it would probably be easier for people to jump from GM or MMF. Otherwise, I think C++ and SDL, they would be a little harder to grasp but they're a lot more flexible.
I reckon torque. Mind you, you'd have to get these tutorials finished in 30 days, or people will have to "obtain" a full copy of it :P.
Also, I think that going for the latter option of "how to design a zelda like adventure game" is the better way to go, because people can branch out later.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2008, 01:03:11 am »
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Personally I still feel the best way is; C# + Custom Lib.

C# simply because its simple and easy for people new people too pickup. It also has more future opportunities than say Torque.

Custom Lib because you can dictate exactly how much depth you want to go into with the tutorials (for example you could wrap all rasterization into the lib, all pak files, etc, etc, and only concentrate on higher level game design specific aspects). You could also leave the library open source so those who wish to progress further can then study how it works.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2008, 01:07:58 am »
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Why spending so much time and work in a custom lib if there are enough open-source libs floating around?


MinEdit
H_B, please keep this topic related to the discussion of the tutorial series itself, vice digging into other peoples' ideas. He provided a reason for why he thought a custom library would be the best.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 01:15:24 am by Minalien »
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 01:12:03 am »
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Why spending so much time and work in a custom lib if there are enough open-source libs floating around?
Hardly time and work, the one I created for when I was doing these tutorials only took a couple of days work.

As for using other libraries; you then have to explain to everyone the processes of linking them all together (and fixing all the errors thats going to undoubtably cause u_u), you also have to explain how each one works, and teach them the syntax/naming-convention each one uses, not to mention there are few that work perfectly with C#, most are in C++ or similar. You also get far far more choice over exactly what you hide from the person your teaching, and you can easily add more bits to it as the tutorials progress.

Blah blah blah, sorry its 2am, not really in a fit state to debate.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2008, 01:27:31 am »
  • Minalien
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As for development platforms, I'd like to see it made in the torque game builder myself, as you said it would probably be easier for people to jump from GM or MMF.
This right here is my primary reason for wanting to use it. As well, it provides support for Mac and Linux platforms, so our non-Windows developers (though they seem to be few and far between, here) would not be left in the cold.

Otherwise, I think C++ and SDL, they would be a little harder to grasp but they're a lot more flexible.
The issue that we run into there, however, is that the tutorial would start mostly on how to design a game engine from scratch using those, vice how to design a zelda game, though that would be alleviated by me developing a custom engine around SDL.

I reckon torque. Mind you, you'd have to get these tutorials finished in 30 days, or people will have to "obtain" a full copy of it :P.
That was the biggest issue that I ran into when considering the use of Torque as a development platform.

Also, I think that going for the latter option of "how to design a zelda like adventure game" is the better way to go, because people can branch out later.
My thought, exactly.



C# simply because its simple and easy for people new people too pickup. It also has more future opportunities than say Torque.
While I know that to be true, and I love C# as a language, there are some things that need to be considered here. Firstly, not everybody on ZFGC is ready to jump into a full development language. Beside that, the past two tutorial runs have been using C# in one form or another, and have not been very active, probably for that reason.

Second, I would venture to say that we have more people here who wish to become designers and artists, vice programmers. Using a proven technology such as Torque would actually provide them with more in terms of getting a job as a designer than they would receive if they had stuck with C#, in which they would be limited by how well they can learn and adapt their ideas and desires into a programming language. Logical design, such as setting the flow of a game engine for optimal performance while achieving the desired effect, is very different from, for example, visual design.

Custom Lib because you can dictate exactly how much depth you want to go into with the tutorials (for example you could wrap all rasterization into the lib, all pak files, etc, etc, and only concentrate on higher level game design specific aspects). You could also leave the library open source so those who wish to progress further can then study how it works.
See above.



As for using other libraries; you then have to explain to everyone the processes of linking them all together (and fixing all the errors thats going to undoubtably cause u_u), you also have to explain how each one works, and teach them the syntax/naming-convention each one uses, not to mention there are few that work perfectly with C#, most are in C++ or similar.
It would not be very different from explaining how to link your own library into the project. Any library that I use for this situation will be similar in syntax and in how it is used, as with the various SDL libraries.
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2008, 01:41:42 am »
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Firstly, not everybody on ZFGC is ready to jump into a full development language.
Hence the reason I was suggesting using a custom lib, ease a lot of the work of the user.
Allow them to stick to minimal constructs.

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Beside that, the past two tutorial runs have been using C# in one form or another, and have not been very active, probably for that reason.
I'm not sure thats neccessarly to do with the language to be honest.

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Second, I would venture to say that we have more people here who wish to become designers and artists, vice programmers.
The majority seem to be more intrested in programming as far as I can judge.

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Using a proven technology such as Torque would actually provide them with more in terms of getting a job as a designer than they would receive if they had stuck with C#
If we're going that way, why not just jump down to GM.

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It would not be very different from explaining how to link your own library into the project. Any library that I use for this situation will be similar in syntax and in how it is used, as with the various SDL libraries.
I'm aware. I was refering more to the way hb worded his question, gives the impression of just randomly throwing libraries together. However making multiple libraries work together will still require work that I think would probably overcomplicate the process for users. Especially if linker errors and such start being spat out :S.



tldr; I'm !@#$% tired and can't put a coherant sentance together at the moment. I'll debate this when I wake up. Night.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2008, 01:50:01 am »
  • Minalien
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tldr; I'm !@#$% tired and can't put a coherant sentance together at the moment. I'll debate this when I wake up. Night.
I'm not looking to debate the issue. I am looking to spark a conversation between me, the tutorial series author, and those that wish to learn from my tutorials. If you have any further discussion for me about this, please take it up with me over MSN or through a personal message, that this topic may remain a discussion between myself and those who seek to learn from me. Further messages on here that are will be disregarded, you have stated your opinion, and I have listened, and will take it into consideration.

Bear in mind, Tim, that I do not intend for this tutorial series to be aimed at users with the exact interests that you and I have, nor those with our level of experience. I aim to teach users who are less experienced and wish to learn more.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 01:53:49 am by Minalien »
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 01:58:57 am »
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Don't forget you also have programs like Blitz, Python, and PureBASIC to mess with as well.

I still say go with C#.  Seems easy enough to get into.  I don't know about XNA (others have to download the runtime right? or does that not have to be there anymore >.>).
You got SDL, OpenGL, Allegro, etc.  Hell, I'd even go for straight up DXsdk.  Kinda hard to tackle for a beginner though.

I don't know.  I say C# and whatever libs fall in best for beginners/intermediate programmers.

/my two cents
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 02:04:49 am »
  • Minalien
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Don't forget you also have programs like Blitz, Python, and PureBASIC to mess with as well.
Which I am inexperienced with, and would be unable to efficiently teach with.

I still say go with C#.  Seems easy enough to get into.  I don't know about XNA (others have to download the runtime right? or does that not have to be there anymore >.>).
It is no different from requiring the DirectX Runtimes to run games powered by DirectX. It's merely that most computers already have DirectX pre-installed.

You got SDL, OpenGL, Allegro, etc.  Hell, I'd even go for straight up DXsdk.  Kinda hard to tackle for a beginner though.
That last part is the problem exactly. They're hard for a beginner to grasp. The biggest question, as I see it, is "Should the focus be on designing a Zelda (or Zelda-like) game, or should the focus be on programming a game engine, and eventually evolving it into a Zelda (or Zelda-like) game?"
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 02:08:16 am »
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"Should the focus be on designing a Zelda (or Zelda-like) game, or should the focus be on programming a game engine, and eventually evolving it into a Zelda (or Zelda-like) game?"

I say both.  Start with some basics: setting up the system, loading sprites, sounds, etc.  Then move on to Zelda designing of games and how to you the basics and advance on them in an approach to a zelda-like game.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 02:20:11 am »
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I would say to go with SDL, but to keep the variable names, class names, function names, etc. as similar to Game Maker as can be made.  This might help people ease into it easier without feeling overwhelmed.  As for the presentation of tutorials, I think it could be an alright idea if these were posted in the Tutorials section on the site and then linked to with a news item that used iurls.

The hardest part of SDL is just getting used to its way of doing things; the other stuff is just C++ concepts like using pointers with dynamic allocated memory.  As for the Zelda design/game engine thing, the Zelda design would probably be most beneficial.  A lot of the basic stuff gets explained well enough, and the fact that moving around in a Zelda game involves no kind of gravity makes it easy enough to at least get that far. 
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 02:28:13 am »
  • Minalien
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As for the presentation of tutorials, I think it could be an alright idea if these were posted in the Tutorials section on the site and then linked to with a news item that used iurls.
Which would be a complete waste of this subforum that Infini set me up with.

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The hardest part of SDL is just getting used to its way of doing things; the other stuff is just C++ concepts like using pointers with dynamic allocated memory.  As for the Zelda design/game engine thing, the Zelda design would probably be most beneficial.  A lot of the basic stuff gets explained well enough, and the fact that moving around in a Zelda game involves no kind of gravity makes it easy enough to at least get that far. 
I know what the challenging parts of using SDL and C++ would be for new users, thank you. You are completely missing what I was saying about the game engine, and I ask that you read the rest of the topic more thoroughly before adding any more to this conversation.
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 03:11:24 am »
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I was just suggesting that you use the site for this as: the site's tutorials sections could use a boost, the news could use more items related to development, and the amount of activity this board gets on the forum is not that much, and the site would get more visibility.  I didn't even say that you should stop using this board, although it is kind of obsolete; using the news too with this board would help out everyone more though, in my opinion.

I was not trying to be condescending with my preference and explanation of that preference for SDL, I was just trying to elaborate on why I thought that way.  If I had just said SDL, I think it's easy enough, I don't know how that would have been received. 

As for the game engine thing I missed, I might just be iffy on the semantics or the difference of the two options.  I guess I'd agree with what Theforeshadower said; although I was thinking that the basics could be taught pretty quickly, I am probably wrong about that.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2008, 03:32:07 am »
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Just a note, I haven't particularly used Torque Game Builder but aren't most of Torque's stuff not free?

Really the way I feel it should be structured is simply that you teach the elements (in addition to planning).  How to make Link, how to make him move, how to make a menu, how to build a level (probably with some specific utility), how to script AI, and so forth. 

You can't really expect too much out of this though.  It'll be a good reference on how to do things and how to approach a project but that's about as far as it can go.  Only thing more you could do is actively slap groups in the face when they're doing something blatantly idiotic. 

That's kind of the notion behind the whole group system Vash is setting up though.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2008, 03:40:43 am »
  • Minalien
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Just a note, I haven't particularly used Torque Game Builder but aren't most of Torque's stuff not free?
Yes, that is the biggest problem when it comes to the Torque suite. Game Builder's indie license costs $100 for the full version, which would be a problem for those here who do not know how to or do not wish to "acquire" software. Personally, I think that it's worth the money I spent on both TGE and TGB.

Really the way I feel it should be structured is simply that you teach the elements (in addition to planning).  How to make Link, how to make him move, how to make a menu, how to build a level (probably with some specific utility), how to script AI, and so forth. 
I believe that it works best if you have a sort of series tutorial leading through the design and development process, simply because it helps to put those following the tutorials in the mindset for the project.



That does, however, open up another slough of ideas in my mind which I think can greatly help ZFGC. Those, however, I will leave unmentioned until I have a more solid concept fleshed out and can discuss some things with certain others.
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2008, 07:27:52 pm »
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The problem with these kinds of tutorials is they rarely cover essentials of game engine design, an art within itself that can get quite complex...especially if you bring multi-threading into it, but that is one of the most annoying !@#$% things in programming way too complicated for people here. Also "main loop and simple functions" is probably going to be enough for those here, no need for a complex Task manager system.

I think Infini's custom library idea is pretty good really, and to be fair if the people here aren't prepared to jump into a full development language yet....well, the tutorials will remain for when they will be (as they should). That being said, explaining how to use a language like C# or C++ without first going through the console-drivel learning before-hand rarely, if ever, works from what I've seen.

Heh, I think me and maybe one or two others still care about Linux and Mac releases. Most people here use Windows and something which only *ahem* compiles to windows anyway, so aren't that used to the idea of providing multiple versions for multiple users (I use Linux for "office" stuff and Windows for games and such and I know "the mole twins" use Macs, but that's about it really...maybe one or two others with Macs, not sure...probably the musicians here).

Still, providing the means through which Mac and Linux users can use the tutorials seems rather pointless, and the theory is still applicable for such people anyway. Then again, not everyone can learn through theory and pseudo-code...
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 07:33:44 pm by TheDarkJay »
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Re: Series Direction Discussion
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2008, 01:16:21 am »
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I'm a musician, and I don't use a mac, thank you very much :P.

The way I see it though is that if you use something already out there you'll gain experience in using that language/engine, which can be applied later to projects made with the same thing. However with a custom library it won't teach you that sort of thing. It'll teach you, sure, but the library's probably not going to be much good for anything else.
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