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Author Topic: Response to "What is this forum even about?"  (Read 5374 times)

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Response to "What is this forum even about?"
« on: October 26, 2008, 07:20:30 pm »
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Firstly. If you have nothing worth saying, please do not say it. I will immediately delete it when I see it, so it's not worth your time. The purpose of this topic is to not take a 'serious' look at ZFGC itself, but work on what we as a group 'together' (staff, former-staff and users) can do to improve the quality of ZFGC, since most of us have a common goal.

I voted 'this forum is about nothing'. As did 56.6% of others. Why do you think people voted this way? (Rhetorical question) I feel people voted that way because it's absolutely true. This forum in essence went from the following of OoT2D, to an attempt at displaying fan game creations to being of absolutely no value, other than harassing each other.

This doesn't mean that ZFGC can never be something. As I said in one of my posts in that topic, the administration has laid out tools for users to use. Perhaps the methodology behind the laying out of the tools wasn't the best, but it's all about learning, isn't it? When something doesn't work right, you take a look at it, tweak something and test it again. The system helios made for ZFGC was long coming and long planned, and easily and quickly implemented, but it wasn't implemented the best way possible, users should made their way to the new system in some sort of natural path, unfortunately, there's now an over lap between the standard forum boards and the game pages that needs to be cleared up... which is pretty simple to do, it just needs to be done and users need to get used to the new system, you have to be progressive about things... and quite frankly, if you don't like it you don't have to stay, and I encourage you not to, because the people who stay and don't like it seem to turn into !@#$% anyway.

Moderation is a big issue, moderators need to realize they're not following the rules at all, so when they make an attempt at applying them, it goes unheard, because it's impossible to apply something that you don't follow yourself. I think this issue was clearly made aware to current moderation staff, so hopefully this aspect of it will be resolved with out staff removal. This topic is not for telling moderator's they suck or singling anyone out on anything (or in general, not just mods..).

I'm sure most of you are going to say "TL;DR" by now, so that's good, post it and get it deleted, I don't want to read it.

The next step is working from the bottom up, as users, to renovate the forums. This means you actually give a crap. If you don't care, why are you here? I think that's a pretty legitimate question. Apparently as much as I don't want to care about it all, I still end up caring about it, because I keep posting.. so everyone must care a little.. and want to see some success in ZFGC in the future?

I think what ZFGC needs is a real backing.. a game that the forum can be backed by. A community project is a wonderful idea, the reason it 'failed' from the administrative standpoint was lack of administrative support, it had no physical backing.. I think the administration needs to select a few projects that are definitely promising, assist in re-organizing the community project, under an actual agreement everyone agree's on.... and get itself some backing that makes sense for the forum itself..

Users themselves power all of this, only you guys can allow the changes to happen.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 07:24:31 pm »
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I would ask the question, what more can I do, but I have done significantly more than most people and I continue intelligently posting.  As for what I think needs to be done, I stated it in that other topic.  If you wanted to be sure that some of the things I was calling for are implemented, it wouldn't hurt to put me back on the staff again so I could work in that direction, but if anyone feels they can do it reasonably well then by all means do.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 07:31:56 pm »
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I'm not posting this as an administrator or a manager, I'm posting this as a user. So you're barking up the wrong tree.

All users should definitely ask 'what more can I do?' though.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 08:04:47 pm »
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I'll list off what I thin should happen with titles and whatnot:

Community Project should:
- be moved to Site Projects
- have a section on the Site set up for it
- share its resources on a site like the Spriters Resource
- have contests to obtain more resources from here
- have progress reports every week or so that people can track its development
- be organized in an easier way for the viewer
- possibly be given back those certain status for those working on the Community Project officially
- have more people working on it in general
- should possibly be in Game Maker as well as something else such as C++/C#

Moderators should:
- act with a little more respect for the rules
- possibly be assigned to local boards based on their interest (similar to how my old idea was with the head moderator system, but with no head moderators, and moderators would be still be global, but assigned to areas based on what they were good at so they could be accountable there and the reactions to infractions would not vary as greatly)

Chat from here should:
- possibly have the snooper back if that is possible (people have servers for it, I assume)
- maybe have something like the old chat comics (could archive them in a sub-board of the chat or just on the main board)
- maybe have certain hours for people just to ask development questions
- be stable in who is an op, half-op or whatever a little more

The current Site should:
- have the project page modified so that the most recently edited topic is moved accordingly on the page so that old projects with updates wouldn't get left behind
- should possibly have a spot for Member of the Month (I know it was ego-stroking to some degree, but it would give the moderators something to do besides moderate and it would make some users happy and maybe act a little better)
- Rework the affiliates page to include information about each affiliate (banners are fine, but more descriptions would be good too)
- more writers

The forum should:
- have it's development boards more organized
- have the topic archive updated or used in some more of a way
- have the staff ask for more user input over stuff
- make it known that user generated events are welcome if they can be approved of
- have more holiday events
- should reach out to other forums trying to leach their good members
- return to working on the custom ZFGC style (the one .TakaM started)
- should be linked a little more with the site
- have site staff recognized and credited

These are all just ideas really.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 08:15:48 pm »
  • Wooper Don't Give a !@#$%
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Quote
- have the topic archive updated or used in some more of a way

Topic Archive was my creation, and its only there for the rare valuable/funny topic that's worth saving. Unfortunately stuff like this has made it lose most of its topics, like that Starfox one, and its almost a joke. Don't touch the archive, just add to it when needed.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008, 08:20:34 pm »
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Well more or less, most of the more recent topics in the archive happen to be ones that got locked for rule violation, so if anything, it wouldn't be that great to follow that trend.  Moving old contest boards there though is a good thing.  It seems odd that things like the old Forum Feedback are there though when the topics therein could just as easily be moved back to the Feedback forum and wouldn't affect anything due to them being so old and then the old Forum Feedback board could be deleted.

But meh, that was only one of my ideas.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 08:29:52 pm »
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There should be a generalized topic archive too, then like an 'epic' topic archive.

4Sword, your list looks a lot like the one I gave management.

My feelings towards the community project are as follows:

1) It should be one of *many* 'sponsored' Project's  by ZFGC.
2) It needs to adbide by specific ground rules set out by both the management of the project and the forum managers.
3) It needs to be a -community project-. Meaning if bob the builder wants to do something he should be able to.
4) Not limit it at *ONE* community project, there should be several, and they should at some point in time be completed. (This means for the people who want to do a C++ one, let them do it, if they wanna do C#, let them do it.. Perhaps we turn it into a competition... :p with prizes.. for 'x' amount of projects.. if there are... 5 projects, five prizes.. we'd definitely have to find a way to judge them (That is completely Helios's idea warped a little.) (at the same time... that's be shelling out a lot of !@#$%, so might want to limit the sizes of teams, or totally split this idea into another category. :p

I completely agree on moderation assignments.

I don't think I disagree with anything you listed, actually.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 08:37:35 pm »
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And I actually disagree with the local mods thing purely off of historical precedent. It's never worked before, this place has always been better off with gmods.

Other than that its a solid list of suggestions.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 08:37:51 pm »
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4) Not limit it at *ONE* community project, there should be several, and they should at some point in time be completed.

I agree with this.

Perhaps all in different styles.

One in GB, one in LTTP, one in MC, one in Custom ZFGC Style, and maybe even a 3D one.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2008, 08:39:55 pm »
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I said local mods in the admin boards earlier, but mods being assigned doesn't equate local mods.. local mods are helpful when there's specific things that need to be done to an area, like constant trimming and day to day cleaning... i think everyone should have global powers.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2008, 08:44:06 pm »
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In regard to community projects, ideally it would be great to have more than one but really, it is better to keep it simple having one thing as our figurehead.  I wouldn't want to see which one is the least active.  As long as it can stand to be reasonably active then more than one would work, but otherwise just one is what is needed.  People should be able to form team projects on their own.  And yeah, I meant locally assigned global moderators - it's funny because I locally moderate 5 boards right now.  It would end up working out better as those assigned would be specialists in those boards, judgments would be more stable, and responsibility would be able to easily be determined.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2008, 08:46:10 pm »
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In regard to community projects, ideally it would be great to have more than one but really, it is better to keep it simple having one thing as our figurehead.  I wouldn't want to see which one is the least active.  As long as it can stand to be reasonably active then more than one would work, but otherwise just one is what is needed.  People should be able to form team projects on their own.  And yeah, I meant locally assigned global moderators - it's funny because I locally moderate 5 boards right now.  It would end up working out better as those assigned would be specialists in those boards, judgments would be more stable, and responsibility would be able to easily be determined.

I was just saying we should leave it open.. if someone doesn't like GameMaker and wants to start an alternative project in C#, they should have at it..
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2008, 10:38:22 pm »
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Yeah, I agree that it shouldn't be closed like that, but for practical matters judging by how not a lot of projects get done here at all, I am saying that having one community project by default is better than having multiple community projects that are not that active make us look bad.  But yeah, in terms of project development something like Game Maker is good for those who don't want to get into all the complexities while C++/C# is for the more advanced.  If it can be set up in an organized way then I am for it, but starting small we should get the one that exists currently in order.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2008, 12:21:25 am »
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Actually Vash, if you're just looking to generalize to the statement that most people think forum is off target you could bump that number up to around 87.5% of the forum.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2008, 10:31:52 pm »
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I agree with everything on 4Sword's list. Members should be getting involved with the forum and try to help make it better, otherwise, it continue to get worse and worse.

In regards to the affiliates below, I'd get rid of the sites that don't have ZFGC on their list. I know for a fact that Zelda Elements and Zelda Infinite won't put the link up. With Zelda Elements, it's basically with the popular Zelda sites. Seeing how Zelda Infinite hasn't updated in a long time, I suggest taking them off. I don't know if I listed all of them though but those 2 sites in particular probably won't add you. I think Zelda Dungeon and ZeldaInformer would be good sites to affiliate with. Info on affiliates would be a cool feature. Maybe if you hover over an affiliate, it will show a little description. The affiliates link at the top of the page should be changed to "Affiliation" since that's what the page is called when you click it.

ZFGC Weekly needs some changes as well. To me, looking through it is an udder mess, somewhat. It really needs to be more organized because most of the content in it is just quotes. There should be more sections in it as well. The only sections are Community Announcements, Best of the Forum, Weekly Awards, The Big Question, and Featured Project. Since it's a newspaper-type thing, there should be more article type things like sentences and paragraphs, not quotes. Besides the top banner image, there should be more images, mainly for the different categories so there's not as much text.

The site really needs more updates. All I see are ZFGC Weekly and a few NCFC updates lately. There should be more articles on different subjects site related and gaming related I guess. An "Articles" tab should be added where you can find articles on say "Gaming Classics" for really classic popular games like Ocarina of Time, Super Smash Bros., Banjo-Kazooie, etc. Another one could be "Tutorials" with a wide list of different things that can help other members or visitors trying to make fan games like movement or level design for the different variety of programs out there.

Since it seems the staff are trying to get members to help make the forums better, they should make a list of things that the members can do rather than thinking of something great then being put-down by other members. I'm sure we could do simple tasks that even a simpleton could do. Member of the Month should come back. Enough of your "Oh, it's just a popularity contest" bull-!@#$%! It seemed to work fine before so it should be fine now. Like 4Sword said, "it would make some users happy and maybe act a little better". That's not a hard thing to do. Try acting a little better and don't be stupid.

I noticed sometimes when one person posts something, another member will quote it and not make a post. Some people post one word posts and I do remember over a year ago that that is considered spam. Posts should be at least more than 4 words and people who quote a post should actually type something rather than just quote and that's it. Those rules should be enforced.

In regards to what the forum is about. I think it's about fan games. Before, it was about OoT2d, then fan games for a little while and now it's just a forum with fan game stuff and a majority of topics not being about what the forum should be about. I think the forum should be about a fan game like The Shadowgazer. It's original and it is making progress, so ZFGC should be the home to that fan game.

That's all I can think of. If you need article writers and stuff, the open up a staff openings page on the site, I'm sure that would help out a lot. :D
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 10:50:44 pm by Yubel »
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2008, 11:22:52 pm »
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In regard to the Weekly, the Community Announcements could be changed back into sentences rather than quotes of posts; having quotes helped it mesh with the Best of the Forum, but overall the Community Announcements section is so small that if not done in quotes it would be near invisible.

The Big Question could be altered so that the results of the question were somehow extrapolated back into the next issue, or that the Big Question would consist of more polling questions.  The Featured Project's interview part was taken out due to a lot of projects being covered or because the new project's creators were not that active enough for an interview; it'd help if people posted some of their ongoing projects because there are many here that do not have pages.  It isn't so much as it was removed as it is open to anyone who wants to be featured specifically, otherwise it is chosen pretty much at random. 

The only thing that I could see added to the Weekly currently would be a tutorial of something simple - I have mentioned doing small examples in Game Maker, others have called for other things.  The only other thing that I can think of would be that images for each section of the Weekly could be made so that there would be "breaks" between texts.

Also, about the site itself, maybe I have just noticed this because I have written at or near the majority, but after you click an article, it's kind of bland inside for anything.  Maybe it's form could be altered so that there would be like a mini-profile displayed at the bottom or top of the text for the news' author.  I don't know, that might be dumb.

Oh, and Yubel, there already is a Tutorials section on the Site, it just hasn't be used much.  If tutorials were part of the Weekly, I suppose that they could be linked to in that section - it would help beef up the section.  As for gaming articles, those would be good too; at one point Mirby was doing them, but he just stopped. 

The Halloween Contest is almost started, and I think that is going to go well, but more contests couldn't hurt.  I was also working on the planning for a Character Contest that would take place in November or December, but that is still in the works.  Overall though, having contests nearly every month or so would be a good thing.  There has also been talk of having gaming tournaments, but if I can say so without bias, the Brawl Tournament was the best this place had at that as it gave something new and had a certain structure; it wasn't perfect, but it was something new that wasn't full crap.  Having a z3 next year wouldn't hurt either.

Member of the Month might make newcomers feel the community is a little more friendly and yeah I feel it gives Members something to work towards.  It's also more frugal for the administration in that money doesn't have to be a part of it.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2008, 11:24:08 pm »
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ZFGC Weekly needs some changes as well. To me, looking through it is an udder mess, somewhat. It really needs to be more organized because most of the content in it is just quotes. There should be more sections in it as well. The only sections are Community Announcements, Best of the Forum, Weekly Awards, The Big Question, and Featured Project. Since it's a newspaper-type thing, there should be more article type things like sentences and paragraphs, not quotes. Besides the top banner image, there should be more images, mainly for the different categories so there's not as much text.

That's the thing, there isn't much at ZFGC to be put in Weekly. I myself try to strand away from all the "drama" topics as I really don't like seeing that stuff in Weekly. We have a hard time as it is sometimes finding awards and good things for best of the forum. Community Announcements can be excused cause there isn't always announcements.

As for more images, I really don't want more. I don't want some fancy thing filled with pretty pictures and banners and little badges. I just want something nice, clean and simple. A banner and an icon for the front page is enough.

Member of the Month should come back. Enough of your "Oh, it's just a popularity contest" bull-!@#$%! It seemed to work fine before so it should be fine now. Like 4Sword said, "it would make some users happy and maybe act a little better". That's not a hard thing to do. Try acting a little better and don't be stupid.

If it worked so well, then why was it removed?

Knowing ZFGC currently, it really will be nothing but a popularity contest. I don't care if you come back and go "IT'S NOT THAT'S !@#$%" because it's not. It's true.

If there were some other way to do a member of the month, I'd be for it, but as it stands now, it'll just be one big popularity contest, which is why it's not here anymore and why it was removed as far as I know.

Also with it "making users happy" and "making them act better" I doubt it. It'll probably cause big egos and problems with people who don't agree with the Member of the Month.

I noticed sometimes when one person posts something, another member will quote it and not make a post. Some people post one word posts and I do remember over a year ago that that is considered spam. Posts should be at least more than 4 words and people who quote a post should actually type something rather than just quote and that's it. Those rules should be enforced.

You shouldn't limit people to what they have to say. As much as it may help, I find it really stupid to add a limit to things. I'm admin on another forum where there's a 25 character minimum on posts. Why? I don't know. I didn't set the rules, the other admin did. I find it hard a lot of the time to sometimes make a post that long just because I simply don't have much to say other than "Awesome." or "That's cool!"

That's all I can think of. If you need article writers and stuff, the open up a staff openings page on the site, I'm sure that would help out a lot. :D

I'm pretty sure you can apply by using: http://www.zfgc.com/index.php#?action=contactus

As far as I know, we've had article writers and such when the new design came forth, but they all pretty much stopped writing things and submitting.
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!@#$% I lost my entire post, god dammit.
Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2008, 11:57:38 pm »
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Eh, sorry I skim read because of the huge posts. I'm going to reply to Yubel who seems to bring up most points in this topic, saves me reading every single post.

Quote
In regards to the affiliates below, I'd get rid of the sites that don't have ZFGC on their list. I know for a fact that Zelda Elements and Zelda Infinite won't put the link up. With Zelda Elements, it's basically with the popular Zelda sites. Seeing how Zelda Infinite hasn't updated in a long time, I suggest taking them off. I don't know if I listed all of them though but those 2 sites in particular probably won't add you. I think Zelda Dungeon and ZeldaInformer would be good sites to affiliate with. Info on affiliates would be a cool feature. Maybe if you hover over an affiliate, it will show a little description. The affiliates link at the top of the page should be changed to "Affiliation" since that's what the page is called when you click it.
I agree. The affiliates at the bottom were just ones I randomly shot out emails to when the site was created. Didn't check which ones replied and which didn't.

Quote
ZFGC Weekly needs some changes as well. To me, looking through it is an udder mess, somewhat. It really needs to be more organized because most of the content in it is just quotes. There should be more sections in it as well. The only sections are Community Announcements, Best of the Forum, Weekly Awards, The Big Question, and Featured Project. Since it's a newspaper-type thing, there should be more article type things like sentences and paragraphs, not quotes. Besides the top banner image, there should be more images, mainly for the different categories so there's not as much text.
Agree as well. Put your suggestions to 4Sword, he's in charge of that at the moment.

Quote
The site really needs more updates. All I see are ZFGC Weekly and a few NCFC updates lately. There should be more articles on different subjects site related and gaming related I guess. An "Articles" tab should be added where you can find articles on say "Gaming Classics" for really classic popular games like Ocarina of Time, Super Smash Bros., Banjo-Kazooie, etc. Another one could be "Tutorials" with a wide list of different things that can help other members or visitors trying to make fan games like movement or level design for the different variety of programs out there.
Yay, more programming for me u_u. Shame I hate web design. I agree though, I have neglected the site a bit.

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Since it seems the staff are trying to get members to help make the forums better, they should make a list of things that the members can do rather than thinking of something great then being put-down by other members.
Perhaps. The main things members can help with is simply posting nice topics in a friendly manner. Thats the best thing you can do to contribute to the site.

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I'm sure we could do simple tasks that even a simpleton could do. Member of the Month should come back. Enough of your "Oh, it's just a popularity contest" bull-!@#$%! It seemed to work fine before so it should be fine now. Like 4Sword said, "it would make some users happy and maybe act a little better". That's not a hard thing to do. Try acting a little better and don't be stupid.
Well I personally don't care either way on motm, if people want it back I'll set it up.

Quote
I noticed sometimes when one person posts something, another member will quote it and not make a post. Some people post one word posts and I do remember over a year ago that that is considered spam. Posts should be at least more than 4 words and people who quote a post should actually type something rather than just quote and that's it. Those rules should be enforced.
*shuffles away* Yeh, I've done that a few times. Usually I only do it when theres nothing more really to contribute to what has already been said, but where I actually want to make my oppinion known.

Quote
In regards to what the forum is about. I think it's about fan games. Before, it was about OoT2d, then fan games for a little while and now it's just a forum with fan game stuff and a majority of topics not being about what the forum should be about. I think the forum should be about a fan game like The Shadowgazer. It's original and it is making progress, so ZFGC should be the home to that fan game.
It more or less is :S. Shadowgazer's site is hosted by us.
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2008, 03:41:31 pm »
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The ZFGC Weekly, well might I suggest it becomes monthly or bi-monthly and is supported by articles written and submitted by ZFGCers? At the moment, no offence 4Sword but it just feels...well, pointless. The occasional interviews are okay, but the rest goes completely ignored by me after little more than a skim-read

I'm not sure if any of you know of QBExpress, but that was basically how it works but with QuickBASIC/FreeBASIC mostly. Members of several 'communities' wrote and submitted articles, and still do.
http://www.petesqbsite.com/sections/express/express.shtml
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Re: Response to "What is this forum even about?"...
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2008, 05:20:12 pm »
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If writing longer would guarantee viewers, then it might be worth it, but as it stands, no one really uses the site even though the site in itself is useful.  Getting interviews only works when there is a project to write about that has a creator who can answer questions for the interview.  This could be replaced with me just looking through projects and essentially changing the format from question and answer to just a fan game review.

If a ZFGCer had something he or she wanted to include in the Weekly, then as long as it was somewhat relevant or well written, I wouldn't see a reason to exclude it.

I also think that the Weekly shouldn't be too big and overly inclusive so that certain things can be spread out just so the news feed itself is updated more and seems to have more.  The Weekly in itself was really just up originally as an archive of what were some prominent topics of the past week so that someone looking back would know what went on. 
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