Hello Guest, please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
Login with username, password and session length.

Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*  (Read 4288 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mamoruanime

@Mamoruanime
Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« on: July 10, 2009, 09:02:41 am »
  • ^Not actually me.
  • *
  • Reputation: +9/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 9786
I've been thinking about the hundreds of projects here that haven't been completed, or are abandoned... There's a common trend with each of them- They're all ambitious for the developers programming skill level.

I think over the years I've come to realize that 99% of us dev only to challenge ourselves, and not to release something. We may not know immediately that the challenge is the reason we're doing it, but I think it dawns on us later. After we've attempted our biggest challenges, we tend to stop caring about progressing the project further. I've seen so many engines go only as far as the walking system and basic attacks. The accomplishment of making your character work the way it's supposed to is usually an immensely gratifying feat, and I don't believe people are planning their projects well enough to set up milestones and tasks for them to achieve when they do something gratifying, so they just lose interest.

I was looking back at some older projects, like Animal Crossing Neighborhood. That project looked spectacular, but I can see it as a project that I would do just to see if I could make something that looks like AC, instead of devving it to release it. I was reading through it, and it seemed like it was a test of a few things- 3d, networking, and staying true to AC's design. The priorities out of those 3 things seemed to be 3d and AC's design, leaving the networking stages (presumably the final portion of the game) unfinished once the other 2 were completed.

Honestly you could look at any project other than that as well and say the same thing after identifying what the motives were. The mass of Ocarina of Time 2d games aren't devved because someone really wants to make OoT2d. They want to make an engine FOR OoT2d.

Anyway, there are a lot of ideas behind this, and a lot of ways to prevent it. I wanna leave it open for discussion.


Logged
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2009, 02:07:26 pm »
  • *
  • Reputation: +3/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6629
Speak for yourself :P. My reason for never finishing projects is because I always find something else thats intresting to do and slowly forget about what I was working on before hand. So much to do, so little time.
Logged
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2009, 03:01:30 pm »
  • *
  • Reputation: +9/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3725
Well, infini's reason is also one of my reasons. But I also have a problem with finishing somethings. Because once it is finished, it IS finished. And if I enjoy working on it and don't want to stop then I put it on hold and something new and interesting has popped up in the mean time.
Logged
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2009, 03:05:36 pm »
  • *
  • Reputation: +16/-0
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1626
Kinda true. I personally plan the most difficult things/complex I can think of just to keep myself challenged, but that's the point. I create my challenges. Stopping a project because there is no more to learn is "incorrect" thinking. You can always make it more challenging! There are other factors involved.
Logged
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2009, 03:25:57 pm »
  • *
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1082
I always finish my "real" projects, even if I sometimes put them on hold for years first. :P

My biggest reason for stopping work on one project and moving onto another is purely because of the fact that I think up a new game ideas every day almost. lol So I constantly try new things, and either scrap it right away if it doesn't work or continue work on it behind the scenes. (I usually never make a project public until it's at least 30% complete)
Logged

pxl_moon (dotyue)

Team Dekunutz
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2009, 03:42:20 pm »
  • .越//
  • *
  • Reputation: +5/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2280
I always finish my "real" projects, even if I sometimes put them on hold for years first. :P

same for me but i'm still on the first Project (an RPG ;)XD

but i think the most Projects posted at ZFGC are from people who dont think that gamemaking ( even with a game "maker" ) is THAT hard or they just make a little and say "heho, look at me, i did it myself!"
Logged

~~Resources~~
~Minish Cap Style~

Minish Cap Beta:Firerod Icon, Majoras Mask:ChuChu, Ocarina of Time:Gossip Stone, Oracle Series:Link plays the "Herpes of Ages", Impa, Wand Maker: HUD
~GB-Zelda Style~
Ocarina of Time: Deku Caca
~Other~
Paper Mario Style Zelda&Link, Tetra Trackers HUD-Cleanups

Dantztron 3030

Mammy's Favorite Storyteller!
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2009, 03:46:30 pm »
  • b e p i s
  • *
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3594
I feel like a big problem with creative people, including myself, is that it is hard to stay focused on a single idea when your mind is running a million miles a minute. This is why I rarely finish longterm writing projects, and why even short stuff takes months for me to complete. Thankfully, since I've been doing this whole creating thing for around 10 years now, I've started to get a better grasp on how to control myself and finish what I start...well, some of the time.

I think this is why many of our amateur designers never finish their projects: they get caught up in that rush of creativity and ambition and think that having the idea so crystallized in their head means that it will kind of complete itself. That's not true; creation takes a LOT of VERY HARD work, and it will not always be a fun process.
Logged
well i dont have that system and it is very hard to care about everything when you are single

pxl_moon (dotyue)

Team Dekunutz
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2009, 03:52:52 pm »
  • .越//
  • *
  • Reputation: +5/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2280
I feel like a big problem with creative people, including myself, is that it is hard to stay focused on a single idea when your mind is running a million miles a minute.

Yes I know that, but I have now a little system for these "ideas" i just make a design document for the "new ideas" with a complete overview of the general idea and put it into a map. I put this map away and work on the current one... that costs often one more day but creation is like you've said not always fun and often very slow ~.~
Logged

~~Resources~~
~Minish Cap Style~

Minish Cap Beta:Firerod Icon, Majoras Mask:ChuChu, Ocarina of Time:Gossip Stone, Oracle Series:Link plays the "Herpes of Ages", Impa, Wand Maker: HUD
~GB-Zelda Style~
Ocarina of Time: Deku Caca
~Other~
Paper Mario Style Zelda&Link, Tetra Trackers HUD-Cleanups

Raen

Are you retarded or something?
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2009, 04:50:15 pm »
  • I'm the gosh-darn Batman!
  • *
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 454
People are lazy, have no attention span, and can't plan properly. That seems to pretty much sum up what people are saying.

And I pretty much agree. The problem with most developers here is that they don't treat their projects like, well, a project. They just dink around with an idea they have and don't actually develop a game. Game development is a complex thing; you can't just have a basic idea and then jump into Game Maker and assume you'll make something awesome. It requires in-depth planning before any development is started. It requires work ethic and an attention span.

It also requires something I think FAR too many people here don't pay attention to: specialized talents. In other words, there are a whole lot of different aspects to a game, such as music, graphics, programming, design, story, ect. All these different parts coming together is what makes an awesome game. Sometimes you find people who can do all of these things on their own, but those people are rare. Honestly, if we actually got the people here who were best at different things and had them work on a project together (and put someone in charge of them to direct them and keep them working and focused), we could make a crazy awesome game that would, probably, get finished.
Logged

www.myspace.com/applesofidunn

And yes, this is Acid Rain.

Jeod

Team Dekunutz, Doubleteam
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2009, 06:18:06 pm »
  • *
  • Reputation: +3/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1675
I can't join the ranks of fail developers yet. Challenge is great and all, but I choose my projects carefully and I always have reasons. For example, if asked "Why are you working on Link's Awakening Remastered", I would say for the challenge. But I would also say that I love the game, and felt it was time for a released redesign. A game that eliminated the flaws the original used to have and expanded on the innovations.

Most developers can't say this though. They usually say "Because I like the game". That's cool and all, but it usually means they want to create a bit of the game themselves. For OoT2D, once the things were mapped, people would quit like someone else was going to walk in and throw it all together.
Logged
"You should challenge your fates. When all else fails, you can still die fighting." ~Yune
___________________________________

Zelda GBC+ Engine for Multimedia Fusion 2
  • Doubleteam Project Page
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2009, 07:03:58 pm »
  • *
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2245
I know the problem for me is that I can't do anything past the engine.  I either have the engine or I know exactly what I need to do to create it and all the other things I think I require, but when it comes to do the actual game I end up drawing a blank.

Oh, and getting decent resources.
Logged

Raen

Are you retarded or something?
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2009, 08:27:01 pm »
  • I'm the gosh-darn Batman!
  • *
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 454
That's kinda my point, Windy. You like making engines, your fully capable of it, and you do good work. But when it comes to putting the game together and doing design you hit a wall, like you said. That's where teams become incredibly important: If you have someone in charge on an engine, then someone working on graphics, and then someone designing/mapping or whatever, then you have a great team that (with some discipline) could make an awesome game.
Logged

www.myspace.com/applesofidunn

And yes, this is Acid Rain.
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2009, 09:08:12 pm »
  • AKA "Micah DS"
  • *
  • Reputation: +9/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1347
That's kinda my point, Windy. You like making engines, your fully capable of it, and you do good work. But when it comes to putting the game together and doing design you hit a wall, like you said. That's where teams become incredibly important: If you have someone in charge on an engine, then someone working on graphics, and then someone designing/mapping or whatever, then you have a great team that (with some discipline) could make an awesome game.

A good team sure is dang hard to set up though. I like to know that things are going to get done, so I always do everything myself, the music, sound effects, graphics, coding, design, etc. I for one DO finish stuff, it just takes forever because I do everything myself.
I have a Zelda game in planning stages. It's been in planning stage for about 3 years off and on, but I'm never giving up on it.
Once the game is planned PROPERLY, I can do everything else so much more efficiently and I will not get stuck and not know what to do next because I'll have it planned in a orderly fashion. This has always worked with any of my completed games in the past. I used to just get all excited and rush in to an idea without much planning, and I would soon get stuck or lose interest, or I would only finish very simple games.

So...

Gotta PLAN and keep it organized. It helps TONS. I'm still excited about my Zelda game, though it'll take me who knows how many more years to finish. I'm not gonna rush in to it without planning EVERYTHING first, because I know I won't get it done, at least I won't get it done as a pro game.

Here's the cool thing about this...
Once the planning is done, the rest goes MUCH smoother and faster and the game comes out super polished, it'll look pro, if you planned properly. Planning is SO important. I keep having idea's that seem good, then I think of a better way to do it, and it all just slowly becomes amazing... at least that's how it is for me. XD

(.... loooooooooooong post ... :o)

EDIT:

Oh, btw, when I said "you" I wasn't talking to Raen, even though I quoted him. It was a universal "you"

___________________________________________________________________________

So, here's a summary of what I said: I think the secret to finishing a game and finishing it good is to plan it all out first, brainstorm, take time to refine idea's. Once you're past the planning, the rest of the project should come along much easier, faster and more pro. The downside is that you have to be a very organized person, or at least learn to be. It all depends on the complexity of your game.
___________________________________________________________________________
« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 09:16:51 pm by FrozenFire »
Logged
  • My Music

Raen

Are you retarded or something?
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2009, 09:29:45 pm »
  • I'm the gosh-darn Batman!
  • *
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 454
I agree that planning is important, but a game being in a perpetual state of development is a terrible, terrible idea. By that, I mean spending 3 years planning so it's PERFECT. Nothing will ever be perfect, it's just how things work. Personally, I think that it's more important to finish projects that it is to make it perfect. The trick is finding a balance: You need enough planning to give the game direction and you need to spend enough time to make a good game, but if you spend so much time developing or planning you are ultimately stopping the game from actually being made.

I've seen this problem far too much with indie games here and at other sites. Yes, planning is important, but so is production. If you don't actually release the game in a reasonable time frame, what's the point? People stop caring, including developers themselves at some point. I mean, think about Duke Nukem Forever. It was in development FOREVER, because the developers were being perfectionists and as such it was never, ever released, thus making it's development completely pointless.

Also, as for putting a team together being hard: It really isn't. Teams are the way things are made in the real world, and with good reason. Yes, there's something nice about having total control over everything, but nothing will get done that way or be nearly as high quality. It's just how things are.
Logged

www.myspace.com/applesofidunn

And yes, this is Acid Rain.
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2009, 09:50:56 pm »
  • *
  • Reputation: +8/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6604
I kind of am in the same boat with Windy on this one. I like making engines more because they tackle a programming challenge as compared to an actual game which goes beyond all that. Like, there is this ice moving/corner cutting engine that I am just about to put the finishing touches on. It's more fun to work on that than coding entering doors or tiling a level.
Logged

Raen

Are you retarded or something?
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2009, 10:46:43 pm »
  • I'm the gosh-darn Batman!
  • *
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 454
Man, we really need to start pairing up you crazy programmers with people who are more design minded (like me). We might actually finish a Zelda game that way!
Logged

www.myspace.com/applesofidunn

And yes, this is Acid Rain.
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2009, 06:04:08 am »
  • *
  • Reputation: +3/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3374
Too many ideas, too little time. I always seem to be working on half a dozen different songs at once.
And there's real life as well, that gets in the way of creativity all too often.
and btw, tl;dr rest of topic.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 06:05:41 am by Darklight »
Logged
Quote from: Jason
Your community is a bunch of stuck up turds.
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2009, 02:32:03 am »
  • AKA "Micah DS"
  • *
  • Reputation: +9/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1347
I agree that planning is important, but a game being in a perpetual state of development is a terrible, terrible idea. By that, I mean spending 3 years planning so it's PERFECT. Nothing will ever be perfect, it's just how things work. Personally, I think that it's more important to finish projects that it is to make it perfect. The trick is finding a balance: You need enough planning to give the game direction and you need to spend enough time to make a good game, but if you spend so much time developing or planning you are ultimately stopping the game from actually being made.

I've seen this problem far too much with indie games here and at other sites. Yes, planning is important, but so is production. If you don't actually release the game in a reasonable time frame, what's the point? People stop caring, including developers themselves at some point. I mean, think about Duke Nukem Forever. It was in development FOREVER, because the developers were being perfectionists and as such it was never, ever released, thus making it's development completely pointless.

Also, as for putting a team together being hard: It really isn't. Teams are the way things are made in the real world, and with good reason. Yes, there's something nice about having total control over everything, but nothing will get done that way or be nearly as high quality. It's just how things are.

I agree, it's just that life for me is so busy that I don't get much chance to work on my game. It's not like I've been working on the game full time during those three years, not at all, in fact I barely got time to spend on it at all with work and college. My free time = sleep time. I've only worked on it during the summers really, and even then I work full time.

I'm not saying people should plan for years and years, that's just stupid and that is planning the wrong way, unless you have no choice because of limited time. A game obviously can't be perfect and there definitely is a balance. I was merely trying to say, plan the game first, don't just take an idea and start making a game without thinking it through. Also, I said that it will be a few more years before my game is done, and that's because it's a long game with tons of content, just like any other Zelda game. If a "real" Zelda game takes Nintendo (and whoever else) around 2-3 years with all pro people working on it and as their actual job, then it kinda puts in to perspective how it could take me so long to make my own Zelda game. It's not because I'm "taking it easy" or anything. I'm just not as fortunate to have as much free time as others do. (I used to though... I miss those days. :'()

The time taken for planning depends on the game's length and complexity etc. If it's a simple asteroids clone, there's not too much planning involved, but if you're trying to make a Zelda clone, you'd better plan waaay more. I think a lot of people don't realize exactly how much is involved in making a Zelda game because they don't plan enough, and then they start in to it prematurely and then realize that it's much harder than they first thought and they quit. If you plan first, you know more of what you're getting in to and it's much more likely that you will finish a project.
Logged
  • My Music

Mamoruanime

@Mamoruanime
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2009, 11:26:40 am »
  • ^Not actually me.
  • *
  • Reputation: +9/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 9786
Speak for yourself :P. My reason for never finishing projects is because I always find something else thats intresting to do and slowly forget about what I was working on before hand. So much to do, so little time.

I was speaking about everybody, including myself :P hence the "we", and not "you guys". Although you should know that I've been trying to get the same 3 projects going for the past 3 years now, instead of doing tons and tons of new ones. In fact, any *new* game I've come up with is typically a variation on an idea for a project I had been working on for years :P Either way, pureLA is still going, and so is NaviBlast. PureLA has always been a project developed in my spare time; which I don't have much of. I'm passing it on to Drewdelz for the time being ;p
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 02:48:58 pm by Mamoruanime »
Logged
Re: Discussion on *why we don't finish projects*
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2009, 01:19:15 pm »
  • Fight the Power
  • *
  • Reputation: +0/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1245
tl;dr: You never planned to fail, you just failed to plan.
Logged

Currently Listening to: Mos Def - Summertime
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up

 


Contact Us | Legal | Advertise Here
2013 © ZFGC, All Rights Reserved



Page created in 0.196 seconds with 79 queries.

anything