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Author Topic: Truth is not relative!  (Read 15745 times)

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Truth is not relative!
« on: October 10, 2007, 04:36:10 pm »
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Okay, I will now !@#$% a lot of people off with this: I really dislike People that say all truth is relative. I've had a huge debate (argument) with my RE teacher over this.

Truth is not relative. Truth is fact, fact is always fact, no matter how many people disagree. Opinions are relative, but opinions are not truth, they are not fact.

If I honestly believe and accept as truth that they is no chair (when everyone else believes and accepts as truth they is), I will not fall through the air if I try to sit down on what I believe not to be their, and I'm damn not stupid enough to try. That will only work if you are a looney toons character.

This may seem like an extreme example, but it does make sense and the more you think about it the less extreme it becomes.

Now commence your scientific attempts to disprove me, with no "It's wrong because I feel in my heart it's wrong"...that is what sparked off this rant in the first place.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2007, 04:51:41 pm »
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Have you ever heard of Nietzsche?
One of his greatest theories was that truth doesn't exist. In fact it exists, but we, humans, can't desbribe (verbally) anything and ensure/prove that that is true.

The chair example: What is a chair? A material where you sit? So a "table", the "floor" and a "bed" are also chairs. You can sit on them. And then you make a complete description of a chair, but there are many types and styles of chair, with different materials, shapes, etc.. So if I create a chair-table, how can you say that's a chair and not a table, or vice-versa? The point is, chemically, physically, geometrically and philosophically speaking, there is nothing to comprove that something is a chair, or any other object.

There are very, very, VERY few things that can be proved to be what they are; so, in Nietzsche's theory, most of the true (like 99.999999999% of the true) is relative.

But what I just said was the philosophical theory; when it comes to common sense things are completely different.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2007, 04:58:08 pm »
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Quote from: sjegtp on October 10, 2007, 04:51:41 pm
Have you ever heard of Nietzsche?
One of his greatest theories was that truth doesn't exist. In fact it exists, but we, humans, can't desbribe (verbally) anything and ensure/prove that that is true.

The chair example: What is a chair? A material where you sit? So a "table", the "floor" and a "bed" are also chairs. You can sit on them. And then you make a complete description of a chair, but there are many types and styles of chair, with different materials, shapes, etc.. So if I create a chair-table, how can you say that's a chair and not a table, or vice-versa? The point is, chemically, physically, geometrically and philosophically speaking, there is nothing to comprove that something is a chair, or any other object.

There are very, very, VERY few things that can be proved to be what they are; so, in Nietzsche's theory, most of the true (like 99.999999999% of the true) is relative.

But what I just said was the philosophical theory; when it comes to common sense things are completely different.

But that's a language argument, rather than a "relative truth" argument. I mean, apparently, Inuits have a lot of different words for snow, right? And the English language doesn't have nearly as many. So we can't describe snow as accurately as they can, but we're still talking about snow, so it's still true just not accurate to their standards.

It's not like we're telling any kind of lie about what it is.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2007, 04:59:28 pm »
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Chair is a language term used to apply to a group of inanimate objects with certain characteristics. Completely different ball game (Language is immensely subjective by nature)
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2007, 05:02:57 pm »
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Quote from: TheDarkJay on October 10, 2007, 04:59:28 pm
Chair is a language term used to apply to a group of inanimate objects with certain characteristics. Completely different ball game (Language is immensely subjective by nature)
That's why.
Truth itself may be concrete, but humans aren't able to express it objectively. Therefore, anything you heard to be true is relative, but you can't say, for instance, that 2 + 2 = 5.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 05:06:04 pm »
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But we're frequently told convenient lies that in the end might as well be 2+2=5. The idea being that the truth is too complex, and the lie is better in the long run.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2007, 05:09:41 pm »
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Quote from: Pyru on October 10, 2007, 05:06:04 pm
But we're frequently told convenient lies that in the end might as well be 2+2=5. The idea being that the truth is too complex, and the lie is better in the long run.
Unless you use reason to conclude by yourself that 2 + 2 = 4.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 06:39:47 pm by sjegtp »
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2007, 07:25:07 pm »
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Still, none of these things make truth relative...just unknown :P
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2007, 11:37:07 pm »
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Language and relativity of truth are completely different concepts, you know.
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Quote from: TheDarkJay on June 25, 2009, 11:28:56 pm
And now after years of mocking him the pretending he played a massive part in our lives when really we couldn't care less just to ease our consciounse over said mocking healing can begin <_<

It's Steve Irwin all over again.
Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2007, 12:49:07 am »
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are you also talking about sin?  as in she says eating pie is sin but i don't so if i eat the pie i'll die and still go to heaven but if she eats it she'll die and go to hell type thing?  that was weird, i know, but i know a lot of people that think sin is relative.
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Hoffy

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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2007, 02:41:39 am »
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Quote from: sjegtp on October 10, 2007, 05:02:57 pm
Quote from: TheDarkJay on October 10, 2007, 04:59:28 pm
Chair is a language term used to apply to a group of inanimate objects with certain characteristics. Completely different ball game (Language is immensely subjective by nature)
That's why.
Truth itself may be concrete, but humans aren't able to express it objectively. Therefore, anything you heard to be true is relative, but you can't say, for instance, that 2 + 2 = 5.
Obviously you've read Nineteen-Eighty Four :P. There's an excellent part of that novel that delves into what is true and what is not true, depending on how language and power is used to prove what is and what is not true.

But I have to agree with Dracon in that language is only used to prove, if not sometimes bend the relativity of truth. Truth is fact, opinions can express a comprehensible truth. Opinions an express fact, thus expressing what is true. But opinions are relative. And then that leads me to agree with Pyru in that convenient lies can provide the convenient truth.

Either way, I'm only using big words and sentences to express something that has little chance of changing anyone else's thoughts or ending world hunger.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 02:45:43 am by Hoffy »
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Hoffy.
Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2007, 03:42:36 pm »
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Quote from: Pyru on October 10, 2007, 05:06:04 pm
But we're frequently told convenient lies that in the end might as well be 2+2=5. The idea being that the truth is too complex, and the lie is better in the long run.
Obviously not. You can prove that 2+2=4 by counting 2 up from 2.

Also, a chair is a (usually) 4 legged board with a back to it. It could look different, like have cussions, 6 legs, can spin (office chair), and may not even have a back (but that's usually a stool.), but it's still basically a chair.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 03:46:44 pm by BlueMonkey »
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2007, 04:58:56 am »
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BUT, you were taught that 2+2=4.  What if someone had taught you that 3+6=7?
Same thing with colors.  You say that the apple is red.  To a point, you speak truth.  But what if it was not fact.  What if in fact, someone came upto you and earnestly debated the apple was yellow?
Truths cannot be 100% fact.  Why?  Think about it.  It goes with how you were raised.  If you were raised that 2+2=5, then that is your truth but it is not the truth.  I guess "truth" would be dependent on the majority of the world.  If more people thought 2+2=5 than 2+2=4 people, then our truths would be changed to that 2+2=5.

I probably make no sense.
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Mamoruanime

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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2007, 05:04:13 am »
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Truth CANT be relative because truth denotes fact, so I agree totally lol... if I have a spoon in front of me and I say there is no spoon, I'm not stating fact; I'm stating a vague opinion of something that I should know the truth about lol
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2007, 05:34:09 am »
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If I were to say it would be okay for you to leave your room whenever you want, would that be the truth?

If I were to say the same thing if you were in prison for committing murder, would it be the truth?


Is it opinion whether you're allowed to leave your room or not, or does it depend on circumstance, and is therefore relative?
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Mamoruanime

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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2007, 05:35:58 am »
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Quote from: Atrius on October 12, 2007, 05:34:09 am
If I were to say it would be okay for you to leave your room whenever you want, would that be the truth?

If I were to say the same thing if you were in prison for committing murder, would it be the truth?


Is it opinion whether you're allowed to leave your room or not, or does the truth depend on circumstance, and is therefore relative?

fact is; if you were to say its okay for someone to leave a room at any time, its not truth, its opinion. Is it really safe for him to leave the room? Its indeterminable, so more appropriately you'd have to say "It might be safe for you to leave the room" to be more accurate lol
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2007, 05:41:50 am »
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I don't mean is if it's safe for you to leave the room, I mean if it's morally okay.

Even by your example it could be true that it's okay for you to leave your room sometimes, but not others.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2007, 09:38:44 pm »
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Quote from: Theforeshadower on October 12, 2007, 04:58:56 am
Truths cannot be 100% fact.  Why?  Think about it.  It goes with how you were raised.  If you were raised that 2+2=5, then that is your truth but it is not the truth.  I guess "truth" would be dependent on the majority of the world.  If more people thought 2+2=5 than 2+2=4 people, then our truths would be changed to that 2+2=5.
Yeah, but there is a way to avoid that. When I studied philosophy I learned about a philosopher called Descartes who, one day, decided to forget everything he ever "learned" to conclude rationally if those things could actually be true or not. In other words, you might have been told that "2+2=5", but if you stop to reflect about that information you may come to think "Wait, that doesn't make sense at all." and conclude that "2+2=4". However, there are some things that you simply can't conclude by yourself - religion for instance. There are so many religions in the world that you can't say that any of them is true, false or partially true. That's why we can't debate them.

Quote from: Hoffy on October 11, 2007, 02:41:39 am
Obviously you've read Nineteen-Eighty Four :P.
Never heard of it. :P

Quote from: BlueMonkey on October 11, 2007, 03:42:36 pm
Also, a chair is a (usually) 4 legged board with a back to it. It could look different, like have cussions, 6 legs, can spin (office chair), and may not even have a back (but that's usually a stool.), but it's still basically a chair.
Then you could call a methane molecule a chair. It has 3 hydrogen legs, 1 carbon body and 1 hydrogen back. It's still a chair, although the back is in the middle of the body and it has three legs. That's ironic: anything could be a chair. And if you start making too many specifications, the definition becomes subjective and you can't tell anymore if something is or is not a chair. Most of the concrete things we know can't be defined, though most abstract things (such as "2+2=4" or "pi=3.14159...") can be proved to be true.

Quote from: Mamoruanime on October 12, 2007, 05:04:13 am
Truth CANT be relative because truth denotes fact, so I agree totally lol... if I have a spoon in front of me and I say there is no spoon, I'm not stating fact; I'm stating a vague opinion of something that I should know the truth about lol
But that's the problem: philosophically speaking, you can't define a spoon! XD Though when it comes to common sense, it'd be stupid to say that a spoon doesn't exist, of course.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2007, 09:55:11 pm »
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Philosophy isn't really a science though, and when a person dismisses scientific observation on the grounds it has "No Philosophical appeal", well that's just plain insane.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2007, 10:54:09 pm »
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Quote from: TheDarkJay on October 12, 2007, 09:55:11 pm
Philosophy isn't really a science though, and when a person dismisses scientific observation on the grounds it has "No Philosophical appeal", well that's just plain insane.
I've never seen someone dismissing science because of Philosophy. Unless you're talking about Metaphysics, but that is completely obsolete nowadays - because Science has proved that most metaphysical theories are wrong.

And of course, Philosophy is not a Science. Philosophy are theories that (usually) can't be proved to be true, while Science are the conclusions you get (usually) from observing nature and making experiences.
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