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Author Topic: Truth is not relative!  (Read 15747 times)

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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2007, 04:00:03 pm »
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But if truth isn't relative, then I can't say I didn't eat the hamburger.  When some one else did eat the hamburger, but not me.  Making it true, but not really true?

And if it's not then why should I believe any of this?

Huh?

I can't say "I didn't eat the hamburger" when someone else did? The use of I suggests that "I, myself a person whom is this person that is me, if another person did it that is not me, then I cannot use I because I am I, and not them", so...pizza anyone?
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2007, 04:08:42 pm »
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The truth is relative if you factor in quantum mechanics.  If the theory of the universal wavefunction is correct then each time you were to attempt to eat said hamburger, the world would be split into two, one where you do and one where you don't.  Therefore by saying you ate the hamburger could necessarily be true, even if you didn't eat the hamburger in this particular parallel universe.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2007, 04:17:31 pm »
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I really wanna see evidence for this theory, I don't care HOW complicated the text book :P Quantum Physics is interesting, but too often used to spread !@#$% around.

FYI: I'm not calling this theory !@#$%, I'm well aware it is a well-known theory.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2007, 06:09:59 pm »
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its like saying you want to see evidence that the matrix does or doesn't exist

kinda hard to prove

but i'd say its more of a logical or philosophical way of thinking, rather than hard scientifical fact
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2007, 06:42:54 pm »
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The truth is relative if you factor in quantum mechanics.  If the theory of the universal wavefunction is correct then each time you were to attempt to eat said hamburger, the world would be split into two, one where you do and one where you don't.  Therefore by saying you ate the hamburger could necessarily be true, even if you didn't eat the hamburger in this particular parallel universe.
I don't know much about Quantum Physics, but as I know those "parallel universes" don't really exist, it's just a method of considering all the possibilities since you don't know the exact positions of the electrons.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2007, 09:03:06 pm »
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BUT, you were taught that 2+2=4.  What if someone had taught you that 3+6=7?
Same thing with colors.  You say that the apple is red.  To a point, you speak truth.  But what if it was not fact.  What if in fact, someone came upto you and earnestly debated the apple was yellow?
Truths cannot be 100% fact.  Why?  Think about it.  It goes with how you were raised.  If you were raised that 2+2=5, then that is your truth but it is not the truth.  I guess "truth" would be dependent on the majority of the world.  If more people thought 2+2=5 than 2+2=4 people, then our truths would be changed to that 2+2=5.

I probably make no sense.

2 is the value of two things, or two 1's. 4 is the value of four things, or four 1's. Irregardless to what you were taught or how you feel about that, yeah. If "3" meant the value of three things (* * *) and 6 meant the value of one ( * ), then 3 + 6 = 7 would be true, but that is a debate about what we call things, not what they are.

Again, with the Red and Yellow thing, Red and Yellow are english words for colors. Because you know what the word red is defined as, you know that the statement, "this apple *holds a red apple* is red," is true and fact.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2007, 10:28:22 pm »
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Again, with the Red and Yellow thing, Red and Yellow are english words for colors. Because you know what the word red is defined as, you know that the statement, "this apple *holds a red apple* is red," is true and fact.
Yes, but the definition of "red" is partial. If you have two red apples, but one is darker, can you still say that both are red? What's the limit between "red" and "black"? If you create the expression "dark red", what'd be the limit between "dark red" and "red"? If you have two apples near exact limit of "red" and "dark red", but one is 0.000001% darker and the other is 0.000001% brighter, human eyes can't know which one is "red" and which one is "dark red". If the definition of the words are partial, how can truth be absolute?

The way humans deal with information - language - isn't perfect so that you can tell absolute truth. We create definitions and learn associations via experience; and our language doesn't let us pass information 100% objectively. We rely on the understanding of the listener. Usually the concepts of the listener are similar enough to the speaker so that information can be passed. But it is very common when speaker says one thing and the listener understands something else. Hasn't this ever happened to you?
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2007, 11:15:21 pm »
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I'm glad someone brought up the colour thing again because it gives me the perfect opportunity to mention this:

What is the true red? Can you please explain to me what red looks like? in order to do this you would also have to explain what other colours look but like because colours cannot be truly defined you can never really tell me what the true red is. What I see as red might be what you see as blue. Now before you say that what I'm talking about is colour blindness hear me out. if my red is the same as your blue and to make things simple, my blue is the same as your red then how could we tell what red really looks like?

Think about it.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2007, 11:23:14 pm »
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What is the true red? Can you please explain to me what red looks like? in order to do this you would also have to explain what other colours look but like because colours cannot be truly defined you can never really tell me what the true red is. What I see as red might be what you see as blue. Now before you say that what I'm talking about is colour blindness hear me out. if my red is the same as your blue and to make things simple, my blue is the same as your red then how could we tell what red really looks like?
One may see as red and the other may see as blue (it would depend on how the brain would decode the message sent by the eye cells), but it would be in a way that you can still distinguish colours, independently on how they are interpreted. I guess the concept of red is applied to the frequency of colour reflected by the object, not to how that frequency is interpreted by the brain.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2007, 05:31:58 am »
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Quote
Yes, but the definition of "red" is partial. If you have two red apples, but one is darker, can you still say that both are red? What's the limit between "red" and "black"? If you create the expression "dark red", what'd be the limit between "dark red" and "red"? If you have two apples near exact limit of "red" and "dark red", but one is 0.000001% darker and the other is 0.000001% brighter, human eyes can't know which one is "red" and which one is "dark red". If the definition of the words are partial, how can truth be absolute?

Okay, that actually makes sense. I'd say both are red. Because the statement, "the apple is red," DOESN'T assign the shade, amount of light hitting it and affecting its lightness, or its exact pigment, it's still telling the truth; its just not a super long scientific explanation of the exact and absolute color.

Furthermore, the word "red" in general use and common assumption designates any shade of the color we know as red. It's a general term, and obviously not as descriptive as you'd like, but its still truth I say.

Quote
Now before you say that what I'm talking about is colour blindness hear me out. if my red is the same as your blue and to make things simple, my blue is the same as your red then how could we tell what red really looks like?

Dude, I had that theory when I was a little kid once. I thought maybe blue-eyed people saw colors differently than brown-eyed people, and they each knew each color by that name and had no way of knowing how their opposite-shaded friends saw the same colors. But then I realized that the iris doesn't have anything to do with color perception.

But the thing is, aside from people who are colorblind, all people see all colors the same. Maybe there are people who had eye damage who don't see as clearly or something, but colors don't vary to individual perceptions-- again, aside from color blindness. . . Well, as far as we know.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 05:35:33 am by CelestialEsper »
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2007, 04:04:51 pm »
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What is the true red? Can you please explain to me what red looks like? in order to do this you would also have to explain what other colours look but like because colours cannot be truly defined you can never really tell me what the true red is. What I see as red might be what you see as blue. Now before you say that what I'm talking about is colour blindness hear me out. if my red is the same as your blue and to make things simple, my blue is the same as your red then how could we tell what red really looks like?
One may see as red and the other may see as blue (it would depend on how the brain would decode the message sent by the eye cells), but it would be in a way that you can still distinguish colours, independently on how they are interpreted. I guess the concept of red is applied to the frequency of colour reflected by the object, not to how that frequency is interpreted by the brain.

Wow! that makes perfect sense! I'm glad someone: A) actually understood what I was saying (most of my friends don't) B) came up with an answer that makes sense!


Quote
Now before you say that what I'm talking about is colour blindness hear me out. if my red is the same as your blue and to make things simple, my blue is the same as your red then how could we tell what red really looks like?

Dude, I had that theory when I was a little kid once. I thought maybe blue-eyed people saw colors differently than brown-eyed people, and they each knew each color by that name and had no way of knowing how their opposite-shaded friends saw the same colors. But then I realized that the iris doesn't have anything to do with color perception.

But the thing is, aside from people who are colorblind, all people see all colors the same. Maybe there are people who had eye damage who don't see as clearly or something, but colors don't vary to individual perceptions-- again, aside from color blindness. . . Well, as far as we know.

How do you know all people see colours the same? It can't be proved because there is no way of seeing how someone else perceives something and even if you could you would just perceive it the way you perceive everything else.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2007, 10:02:03 pm »
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How do you know all people see colours the same? It can't be proved because there is no way of seeing how someone else perceives something and even if you could you would just perceive it the way you perceive everything else.

You can understand how someone perceives color and light by understanding how the human eye and the brain work. I don't personally know these things so well, but yeah... If there was someone in question as to whether they saw color differently, I'm sure they could be examined and compared to someone who saw color "normally." If everyone was the same, then everyone sees color the same. And your last sentence made no sense: "there is no way of seeing how someone else perceives something and even if you could you would just perceive it the way you perceive everything else"

???
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2007, 11:54:05 pm »
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About the colour thing... As I know, the eyes send a message to the brain as an image (imagine this as a BMP or PNG image) - then brain cells analyse the "pixels" to identify the objects that are being seen. That requires searching in human memory for objects that match. Thus, your "pixel message" becomes an "object message"; and as it is based on each ones memories, the brain data would differ from person to person. That's what I think at least <_<

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure though, but babies that are few-weeks-old don't see well and are colour blind - probably because they haven't been alive for enough time to have memories of many external objects.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 12:00:45 am by sjegtp »
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2007, 04:07:26 am »
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About the colour thing... As I know, the eyes send a message to the brain as an image (imagine this as a BMP or PNG image) - then brain cells analyse the "pixels" to identify the objects that are being seen. That requires searching in human memory for objects that match. Thus, your "pixel message" becomes an "object message"; and as it is based on each ones memories, the brain data would differ from person to person. That's what I think at least <_<

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure though, but babies that are few-weeks-old don't see well and are colour blind - probably because they haven't been alive for enough time to have memories of many external objects.

Is that fact or just your own theory? I've never heard of that before.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2007, 11:53:26 am »
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hmm with color... kinda off subject a bit; but I personally believe the colors we individually perceive are different colors to other people...

For example, what I see is green... What I call green... could be blue to someone else, and my blue could be someone else's green. Not like color blindness or anything, but rather; everyone seeing the colors with a different hue than one another, but I think we become so accustomed to what we perceive, the colors fit no matter how much they differ from someone else's perception ... hard to explain XD but yeah...
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2007, 01:38:08 pm »
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About the colour thing... As I know, the eyes send a message to the brain as an image (imagine this as a BMP or PNG image) - then brain cells analyse the "pixels" to identify the objects that are being seen. That requires searching in human memory for objects that match. Thus, your "pixel message" becomes an "object message"; and as it is based on each ones memories, the brain data would differ from person to person. That's what I think at least <_<

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure though, but babies that are few-weeks-old don't see well and are colour blind - probably because they haven't been alive for enough time to have memories of many external objects.

Is that fact or just your own theory? I've never heard of that before.
The babies part I read somewhere, but most of the rest is my theory. I'm not sure if it's exactly that way that it happens, but I'm sure I've learned at school that our brain doesn't see exactly what the eye cells send; there's a process to adapt the message so that the brain can understand.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2007, 05:08:03 pm »
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How do you know all people see colours the same? It can't be proved because there is no way of seeing how someone else perceives something and even if you could you would just perceive it the way you perceive everything else.

You can understand how someone perceives color and light by understanding how the human eye and the brain work. I don't personally know these things so well, but yeah... If there was someone in question as to whether they saw color differently, I'm sure they could be examined and compared to someone who saw color "normally." If everyone was the same, then everyone sees color the same. And your last sentence made no sense: "there is no way of seeing how someone else perceives something and even if you could you would just perceive it the way you perceive everything else"

???

How would you be able to compare the two peoples perceptions of what the colour looks like? There isn't any way to see what things look like through someone elses eyes so how can you compare what two people are seeing?

I agree that my last sentence made no sense so let me try to explain it differently.

Imagine that instead of an eye we have a hard drive - ( I'm using a metaphor here ) - and instead of a brain we have a computer monitor. Now lets say that on my computer I make a picture. I then send that picture to you via E-mail. Now you open it up on your computer and your monitor is set differently to mine. The colours would look different right? Now lets say you send me an E-mail saying "hey the picture you sent looks like #%@$*! The colours look bad." then I reply saying "Really? Send me a screen shot so I can see what they look like." then you send a screeny but because the actual data isn't different, just the way your screen interprets it, It still looks like it did when I first made it.

Do you kind of understand what I'm trying to say?
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2007, 05:42:24 am »
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hmm with color... kinda off subject a bit; but I personally believe the colors we individually perceive are different colors to other people...

For example, what I see is green... What I call green... could be blue to someone else, and my blue could be someone else's green. Not like color blindness or anything, but rather; everyone seeing the colors with a different hue than one another, but I think we become so accustomed to what we perceive, the colors fit no matter how much they differ from someone else's perception ... hard to explain XD but yeah...

If that were true, I'd hate that so much.

Hmn.. I wonder what color ZFGC is to Mammo..
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2007, 06:04:26 pm »
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Am I the only one who was wondering how 'how we percieve the colours' changes what colour they actually are? The object still reflects the same amount of certain parts of the light spectrum, regardless of how our brain processes it.
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Re: Truth is not relative!
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2007, 05:17:20 am »
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Am I the only one who was wondering how 'how we percieve the colours' changes what colour they actually are? The object still reflects the same amount of certain parts of the light spectrum, regardless of how our brain processes it.

The argument is that we perceive it differently because although all the actual colors are what they are, we see them differently ourselves because of our unique brains.. or something... ??
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