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Author Topic: Humanity  (Read 6489 times)

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Re: Humanity
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2008, 09:34:09 am »
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Ok, I'd like to present a question to all those people who think that humans are NOT animals:
Where is the line between humanity and animals?
Think about it, we are just more intelligent animals. It's like comparing chimpanzees to chickens or animals with less intelligence. Both are still animals.
We are just too proud to accept it.

Actually, most people agree we're animals. We are differently adapted animals, we also had mines, and out of that came tools to build shelter by ourselves. We gained communicational skills which allowed us to communicate (Z0MG) and make diplomocy, or at least a fuedal system which allowed us to become organized and ahd things happens. That's what split us.
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2008, 09:55:17 am »
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Ok, I'd like to present a question to all those people who think that humans are NOT animals:
Where is the line between humanity and animals?
Think about it, we are just more intelligent animals. It's like comparing chimpanzees to chickens or animals with less intelligence. Both are still animals.
We are just too proud to accept it.
yea... but we got leik soulz and stuff!!111
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2008, 09:57:34 am »
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Ok, I'd like to present a question to all those people who think that humans are NOT animals:
Where is the line between humanity and animals?
Think about it, we are just more intelligent animals. It's like comparing chimpanzees to chickens or animals with less intelligence. Both are still animals.
We are just too proud to accept it.
yea... but we got leik soulz and stuff!!111

<_< is this really adding to the debate Hyrule_Boy? This is the 2nd thread you've done this to without any real... reasoning for it. Not a single person has brought up theology in those threads, and you're ruining it by poking fun at it. >_>
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2008, 10:01:14 am »
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The Super Ego.

I thought about it for a while, and my conclusion is that the largest difference between humans and other animals is the presence of what Freud called the Super Ego, or the moral/ethical aspect of thinking and decision making. Animals don't appear to have a sense of right or wrong in my experience, and as trivial as some might believe such thinking is, it is present within our society, and separates us from animals.
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2008, 04:15:41 pm »
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Freud is fail. Pretty much all of his ideas have since been rejected.

And animals have demonstrated indecision, do they flee from a hunter or try to save their young? Most humans do the latter because of maternal instincts, most animals do the same. But you get that few from each side, maybe they is something wrong with us, I don't know, but you always get the few whose flight instinct is greater than the fight one.

Also, if we assume humanities morals aren't just something developed and thrust upon us by society because of fear of being harmed by other people and have spread like a virus (I believe the term is meme) because they keep people alive a lot more than fighting each other with sticks every few seconds (yeah, like that has vanished from society <_<), and instead something inbred into us (hah), aren't human 'morals' just an example of humanities tribal instincts?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 07:31:33 pm by TheDarkJay »
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2008, 04:11:24 am »
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There is no other creature in this world that could possibly wish the ill-fate of another for a futile attempt at some sort of emotional relief.

Animals have emotions?

Well, some may say they have fear, but I belief that's more of an instinct-based reaction than anything. Some scientists genetically altered mice to not be able to smell, and afterwards they were no longer afraid of cats--at all.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 04:13:09 am by CelestialEsper »
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2008, 01:45:26 am »
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So what sets us apart? What makes is human? The answer is hatred.

Given hate, we are also given love. If animals are incapable of hate, then they are also incapable of love.
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2008, 06:42:21 am »
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There is no other creature in this world that could possibly wish the ill-fate of another for a futile attempt at some sort of emotional relief.

Animals have emotions?

Well, some may say they have fear, but I belief that's more of an instinct-based reaction than anything. Some scientists genetically altered mice to not be able to smell, and afterwards they were no longer afraid of cats--at all.
How do you know that humans aren't just further developed than animals in that we only fear based on instinctual things. A mouse is 'programmed' to be afraid of cats by their smell just as we may be 'programmed' to be afraid of something else in a more complex way.
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2008, 06:56:13 am »
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Freud is fail. Pretty much all of his ideas have since been rejected.

And animals have demonstrated indecision, do they flee from a hunter or try to save their young? Most humans do the latter because of maternal instincts, most animals do the same. But you get that few from each side, maybe they is something wrong with us, I don't know, but you always get the few whose flight instinct is greater than the fight one.

Also, if we assume humanities morals aren't just something developed and thrust upon us by society because of fear of being harmed by other people and have spread like a virus (I believe the term is meme) because they keep people alive a lot more than fighting each other with sticks every few seconds (yeah, like that has vanished from society <_<), and instead something inbred into us (hah), aren't human 'morals' just an example of humanities tribal instincts?

About time I respond lolz.

Freud's contributions to the field psychology, while sometimes a little off (which is somewhat forgivable, given how early he was), were invaluable. Anyone that says "Freud is fail" deserves a swift punch in neck.

Indecision shown by animals is different than morality. Maternal instinct isn't the same thing. Ethics and morality can't have been "thrust upon us by society because of fear of being harmed by other people" because that's not the purpose of ethics. Animals may show some form of ideals, but it's a much more basic instinct-centred system. A human moral system seems to be much more complex in that it extends far beyond self-protection, and incorporates a different form of self-protection. You won't often find animals arguing over differing ideals on issues as complex as the ones you see people trying to deal with every day.

Forgive me if I'm simply making points without backing them up with much reasoning, I'm in something of a rush.
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2008, 01:15:04 pm »
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By fail I mean the ideas are mostly dead and can't be brought up seriously in a discussion. While a little sex-crazed (I'm rather scared as to where he got the idea Babies lie in bed thinking about sex from.) and over-the-top in his analysis (and a hypocrite. A pipe is never just a pipe, unless he's smoking it). I'm pretty sure the Super Ego idea was abandoned as nothing more than am 'incomplete metaphor'.

As for the animals, it's hard to say what they talk about, I don't speak French, never mind Doganese XD The main difference is arguably the alarming rate at which humans evolved to create and use tools. While Gorillas are still stuck at using sticks to pry out ants for food, we have computers.

I personally believe humans are a lot more instinctive creatures than we realise. We live and act, and the 'conscious mind' is really just tagging along for the ride.
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2008, 01:43:47 pm »
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By fail I mean the ideas are mostly dead and can't be brought up seriously in a discussion. While a little sex-crazed (I'm rather scared as to where he got the idea Babies lie in bed thinking about sex from.) and over-the-top in his analysis (and a hypocrite. A pipe is never just a pipe, unless he's smoking it). I'm pretty sure the Super Ego idea was abandoned as nothing more than am 'incomplete metaphor'.

As for the animals, it's hard to say what they talk about, I don't speak French, never mind Doganese XD The main difference is arguably the alarming rate at which humans evolved to create and use tools. While Gorillas are still stuck at using sticks to pry out ants for food, we have computers.

I personally believe humans are a lot more instinctive creatures than we realise. We live and act, and the 'conscious mind' is really just tagging along for the ride.

I don't think you're right about Freud's ideas being mostly dead. some of them might have been disregarded, but I know that at least some of his ideas are still supported today. I'm pretty certain his Psychoanalytic theory of personality (which is what I brought up in my post, which I was only mentioning for the term Super Ego, by the way) still holds merit among the psychology community. And by the way, did he ever actually say that his pipe didn't mean anything? Because that's the only way he would have been hypocritical.

Obviously I didn't mean argue as in with words, I meant fight or communicate physically or anything like that. I've seen no evidence of animals displaying a system of ideals as complex and developed as our own (but then there's the argument of "what's to say ours is more developed?" to which I say "!@#$% off" :P). Also, you're point about us having developed at a faster rate is pretty much what I was getting at, only broader. Needless to say, I agree with you, that does set us apart. But then I ask, what's the reason we've developed so much faster?

By the way, I find it amusing that you accuse Freud's theories as ridiculous and wrong, and then go on to say that humans are a lot more instinctive than we realise, which was pretty much one of Freud's main points :P. I do agree, however that we are more instinctive than people seem to want to believe.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 01:45:31 pm by Racoon Boy »
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2008, 02:54:24 pm »
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I'm bad at wording things, heh. When I say "Mostly dead" I mean lots have been disregarded. Also by mostly I meant some still have merit, and quite a few have been 'developed' and improved beyond all recognision. A lot also need to be shot for being unscientific and non-falsifiable (arguably along with 99% of all psychology).

By incomplete metaphor I meant (if memory again serves) the Super Ego concept is regarded nowadays as a "metaphor" in that it is a useful way in certain situations of thinking about it, but not actually how it works and not complete enough to be taken as a 'golden rule'.  They is no 'super ego', but it helps at times to think as if they is.

Freud is often said to have, after one of his lectures, to have responded "Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe" to a question about what does the pipe he always has in his mouth therefore represent about him.  Not sure if it actually happened, hence why I bracketed that part.

You have to admit though, Freud had sex on the brain XD
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2008, 03:05:40 pm »
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You have to admit though, Freud had sex on the brain XD
This is the one thing that bothers me about Freud. He assumed that because HE loved his mother that everyone had an Oedipal complex.
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Grimace is the demiurge, the creator. From him all things in McDonaldland have sprung. He is not a sin, he's not a menu item, he's just Grimace. He exists. He rolls his lidless eyes and flaps his lipless mouth, formless and terrible, a protean idiot thing from the depths of pre-history.
Re: Humanity
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2008, 03:17:42 pm »
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I'm bad at wording things, heh. When I say "Mostly dead" I mean lots have been disregarded. Also by mostly I meant some still have merit, and quite a few have been 'developed' and improved beyond all recognision. A lot also need to be shot for being unscientific and non-falsifiable (arguably along with 99% of all psychology).

By incomplete metaphor I meant (if memory again serves) the Super Ego concept is regarded nowadays as a "metaphor" in that it is a useful way in certain situations of thinking about it, but not actually how it works and not complete enough to be taken as a 'golden rule'.  They is no 'super ego', but it helps at times to think as if they is.

Freud is often said to have, after one of his lectures, to have responded "Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe" to a question about what does the pipe he always has in his mouth therefore represent about him.  Not sure if it actually happened, hence why I bracketed that part.

You have to admit though, Freud had sex on the brain XD

Not entirely sure what you meant at the end of that first paragraph, but some of Freud's ideas have been disregarded by most, I'm sure. It's just I believe he's still more relevant than you seem to be claiming. Also, I'm pretty certain that some new theories have built from Freud's theories, but Freud's theories are still intact. Whatever alterations, unless made by Freud himself, would be considered separate theories.

I don't believe what you're saying about the Super Ego is actually true. I can't be certain (I might ask my Psychology teacher next time I get the chance about Freud's modern relevance), but I'm pretty sure Freud's Psychoanalytic theory hasn't been disregarded outright. Aspects of it may have been questioned, but I think the Id, Ego and Super Ego are still considered legitimate and relevant to the studies of personality and behaviour. As you said though, it is still sometimes a useful way to look at it (which I think was pretty much always the intention), and that's why I brought it up. Animals seem to possess an Id and an Ego, but are lacking a Super Ego (which would slightly alter the purpose of the Ego, so maybe I'm not looking at it quite right).

It sounds to me though, that if he said "Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe", it could have been for two reasons (other than the hypocrite one :P). He could have been saying it in a sort of tongue-in-cheek, question evasion manner, or he could have been saying that some things do indeed not have such deep, subconscious explanations as he had previously stated, maybe both. This point isn't entirely relevant though. :P

On your last point, I definitely agree. Freud was an incredibly creepy old man.
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Re: Humanity
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2008, 08:01:42 pm »
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You have to admit though, Freud had sex on the brain XD
This is the one thing that bothers me about Freud. He assumed that because HE loved his mother that everyone had an Oedipal complex.

Despite being a person who has come to the conclusion that because I've never done a charitable thing without some form of gain-for-myself in mind, everyone else does charity things for some kind of self-gain as well, I must agree.

Though in general girls are usually "daddy's boys" and boys are usually "mommy's boys". Well, that's what I've seen anyway XD
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