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[Hoffy]

Hoffy

Re: Abortion

Ugh, I hate abortion arguments. No offense, but it's such an open-ended discussion, there's just no way to pressure your views onto others without the use of violence.

I pretty much think that abortion is up to the mother or the couple going through with it. I don't think it matters whether or not the fetus can feel pain. Until the child is born, it's just apart of the mother's body and she, or the couple, are the only ones who can decide whether or not to kill it.

Does it become a human when it exits the vagina, or when it is disconnected from the mother?

I don't think it matters, but the latter, IMO. I suppose in keeping to my opinion it is still apart of the mother when it is connected to her, although I don't think that point is valid to my argument.

So, it's okay to kill a newborn baby that still has the umbilical cord?

If the baby is aborted, it should probably be aborted before labor occurs. You wouldn't kill it while labor is occurring, and you'd have to be a pretty sick person to kill a newborn baby. An abortion should be undertaken months beforehand, and I'm fairly sure there's some kind of law on when a baby can be aborted, anyway.

But what difference does it make. For what specific reason is abortion okay before labor, but not after labor. Laws are unimportant as far as this is concerned.

The law was only backing the point of my argument. Of course you have to consider the first point I made in my first post: "it's such an open-ended discussion, there's just no way to pressure your views onto others without the use of violence." I wouldn't abort my child, but I can understand the reasoning for the people who would. Some people just don't have the time to care for a child, they have THEIR OWN LIVES to get on with.

If a woman had a chance of dieing if she went through with a pregnancy, then shouldn't she protect her own life by killing her baby (unless he was against it)? It's like killing in self-defense, sometimes you do need to kill to protect yourself. And for some people, not being able to continue their education or career is worse than death. They should have the right to protect their lives, and their bodies.

But as I said, open-ended.

I see no reason why adoption can't serve the same purpose.

Well I mean, sure, if the couple would instead prefer to put the child up for adoption, it's their choice. But there's also the condition of ruining a woman's body or even dieing during or after pregnancy that makes abortion somewhat suitable.

So are you saying that appearance is more important than a child's life? Practically no one thinks that abortion should be illegal in the case where the woman's life is at risk.

No, I was referring to physical injuries.

And I'd hope not.

Hoffy.

[dehvknull]

dehvknull

Re: Abortion

Ugh, I hate abortion arguments. No offense, but it's such an open-ended discussion, there's just no way to pressure your views onto others without the use of violence.

I pretty much think that abortion is up to the mother or the couple going through with it. I don't think it matters whether or not the fetus can feel pain. Until the child is born, it's just apart of the mother's body and she, or the couple, are the only ones who can decide whether or not to kill it.

Does it become a human when it exits the vagina, or when it is disconnected from the mother?

I don't think it matters, but the latter, IMO. I suppose in keeping to my opinion it is still apart of the mother when it is connected to her, although I don't think that point is valid to my argument.

So, it's okay to kill a newborn baby that still has the umbilical cord?

If the baby is aborted, it should probably be aborted before labor occurs. You wouldn't kill it while labor is occurring, and you'd have to be a pretty sick person to kill a newborn baby. An abortion should be undertaken months beforehand, and I'm fairly sure there's some kind of law on when a baby can be aborted, anyway.

But what difference does it make. For what specific reason is abortion okay before labor, but not after labor. Laws are unimportant as far as this is concerned.

The law was only backing the point of my argument. Of course you have to consider the first point I made in my first post: "it's such an open-ended discussion, there's just no way to pressure your views onto others without the use of violence." I wouldn't abort my child, but I can understand the reasoning for the people who would. Some people just don't have the time to care for a child, they have THEIR OWN LIVES to get on with.

If a woman had a chance of dieing if she went through with a pregnancy, then shouldn't she protect her own life by killing her baby (unless he was against it)? It's like killing in self-defense, sometimes you do need to kill to protect yourself. And for some people, not being able to continue their education or career is worse than death. They should have the right to protect their lives, and their bodies.

But as I said, open-ended.

I see no reason why adoption can't serve the same purpose.

Well I mean, sure, if the couple would instead prefer to put the child up for adoption, it's their choice. But there's also the condition of ruining a woman's body or even dieing during or after pregnancy that makes abortion somewhat suitable.

So are you saying that appearance is more important than a child's life? Practically no one thinks that abortion should be illegal in the case where the woman's life is at risk.

No, I was referring to physical injuries.

And I'd hope not.

What about cases not involving either?

[bertfallen]

bertfallen

Re: Abortion

Why does it matter? 

[ZServ]

ZServ

Re: Abortion

Ugh, I hate abortion arguments. No offense, but it's such an open-ended discussion, there's just no way to pressure your views onto others without the use of violence.

I pretty much think that abortion is up to the mother or the couple going through with it. I don't think it matters whether or not the fetus can feel pain. Until the child is born, it's just apart of the mother's body and she, or the couple, are the only ones who can decide whether or not to kill it.

Does it become a human when it exits the vagina, or when it is disconnected from the mother?

I don't think it matters, but the latter, IMO. I suppose in keeping to my opinion it is still apart of the mother when it is connected to her, although I don't think that point is valid to my argument.

So, it's okay to kill a newborn baby that still has the umbilical cord?

If the baby is aborted, it should probably be aborted before labor occurs. You wouldn't kill it while labor is occurring, and you'd have to be a pretty sick person to kill a newborn baby. An abortion should be undertaken months beforehand, and I'm fairly sure there's some kind of law on when a baby can be aborted, anyway.

But what difference does it make. For what specific reason is abortion okay before labor, but not after labor. Laws are unimportant as far as this is concerned.

The law was only backing the point of my argument. Of course you have to consider the first point I made in my first post: "it's such an open-ended discussion, there's just no way to pressure your views onto others without the use of violence." I wouldn't abort my child, but I can understand the reasoning for the people who would. Some people just don't have the time to care for a child, they have THEIR OWN LIVES to get on with.

If a woman had a chance of dieing if she went through with a pregnancy, then shouldn't she protect her own life by killing her baby (unless he was against it)? It's like killing in self-defense, sometimes you do need to kill to protect yourself. And for some people, not being able to continue their education or career is worse than death. They should have the right to protect their lives, and their bodies.

But as I said, open-ended.

I see no reason why adoption can't serve the same purpose.

Well I mean, sure, if the couple would instead prefer to put the child up for adoption, it's their choice. But there's also the condition of ruining a woman's body or even dieing during or after pregnancy that makes abortion somewhat suitable.

So are you saying that appearance is more important than a child's life? Practically no one thinks that abortion should be illegal in the case where the woman's life is at risk.

No, I was referring to physical injuries.

And I'd hope not.

What about cases not involving either?

then oh well. its not your kid. boo fuckin hoo. get over it. people die every day, just as people are born every day. you'll get over it.

[...The mystery of wireless, revealed...]

[...Ninjas...]

[Moon_child]

Moon_child

Re: Abortion

Murderers go to prison for their crimes people that do abortion not. Which is weird since they do the same thing...

[Dascu]

Dascu

Re: Abortion

Murderers go to prison for their crimes people that do abortion not. Which is weird since they do the same thing...

Let's say a pregnant woman falls off the stairs. Let's say the baby/foetus dies because of this. Should the mother be sentenced for involuntary manslaughter?

[Kame]

Kame

Re: Abortion

I am pro-choice in the purest sense of the word. I think people should have a choice. I don't have one universal belief I think should fit. Personally, and if it were up to me, I would never abort a child of mine. However, I'm not other people and I want to defend their right to decide. That said, I actually advocate only chemical abortions, done at an early stage of pregnancy - in my belief it becomes harder to advocate abortion the closer the child comes to being born. In essence, the pill is a form of abortion, at a very very early stage, and nobody except strict Catholics really have a problem with that.

[Moon_child]

Moon_child

Re: Abortion

Murderers go to prison for their crimes people that do abortion not. Which is weird since they do the same thing...

Let's say a pregnant woman falls off the stairs. Let's say the baby/foetus dies because of this. Should the mother be sentenced for involuntary manslaughter?

You and I both know that your question is stupid.

[Kame]

Kame

Re: Abortion

Why? If the woman fell and killed a man, she'd be charged with the same thing. It's a perfect parallel to your argument.

[Dascu]

Dascu

Re: Abortion

Murderers go to prison for their crimes people that do abortion not. Which is weird since they do the same thing...

Let's say a pregnant woman falls off the stairs. Let's say the baby/foetus dies because of this. Should the mother be sentenced for involuntary manslaughter?

You and I both know that your question is stupid.

She involuntarily killed a human being (according to you), did she not? Hence, if abortion = murder, then involuntary abortion = involuntary manslaughter. Hence, in both cases the mother should be punished, no?

[Dantztron 3030]

Dantztron 3030

Re: Abortion

Murderers go to prison for their crimes people that do abortion not. Which is weird since they do the same thing...

Let's say a pregnant woman falls off the stairs. Let's say the baby/foetus dies because of this. Should the mother be sentenced for involuntary manslaughter?

You and I both know that your question is stupid.

No HB, it's actually an interesting technicality. Think about it, if someone jumps out in front of your car when you're doing the speed limit and focused on the road, as in literally leaps in front of it from the side of the road, you might be charged with involuntary manslaughter. If you're pregnant and trip and fall down some stairs, theoretically the same thing could be levied against you if a fetus is truly the same as a human being.

I think abortion is a very complex issue with no concrete answers. As a man, it's difficult for me to see what it would truly be like to go through with and, personally, I don't think I could. I don't understand a woman's attachment or disattachment to her unborn child. However, I also think there's something depressing about a society of anything-goes abortion with no consideration for the matter.

I think the law should be for rape or danger to the mother, as rape is obviously not the woman's fault and danger to the mother is self-explanatory.

well i dont have that system and it is very hard to care about everything when you are single

[bertfallen]

bertfallen

Re: Abortion

I think theres something Christians, and any other religion should re-read from the bible.
God Gave man Free Will.

So. Shut the !@#$% up. Thank you.

[Dascu]

Dascu

Re: Abortion

I think theres something Christians, and any other religion should re-read from the bible.
God Gave man Free Will.

So. Shut the !@#$% up. Thank you.

So I can go kill people because I have free will? This isn't really a matter of free will, it's more about: does the mother have the right to kill her baby before it is born? How much months in is abortion morally acceptable? Embryo stages? Foetus stages? Or even up until birth?

[bertfallen]

bertfallen

Re: Abortion

I think theres something Christians, and any other religion should re-read from the bible.
God Gave man Free Will.

So. Shut the !@#$% up. Thank you.

So I can go kill people because I have free will? This isn't really a matter of free will, it's more about: does the mother have the right to kill her baby before it is born? How much months in is abortion morally acceptable? Embryo stages? Foetus stages? Or even up until birth?

Well that was more towards the point that religious people should steer clear of other peoples lives. And didn't God give free will so we can chose to do the right thing or the wrong thing. So basically yes, you can go and kill someone because you've got free will, but its the wrong thing to do so dont expect to go by unpunished.

As for when to abort, I dunno, something like a month before birth... Just as long as they dont leave it 2 seconds before the !@#$% is free...

[Dascu]

Dascu

Re: Abortion

As for when to abort, I dunno, something like a month before birth... Just as long as they dont leave it 2 seconds before the !@#$% is free...

Doctor: "I think I can see the head..."
Mother: "KILL IT. KILL IT WITH FIRE. IT'S NOT TOO LATE."

[bertfallen]

bertfallen

Re: Abortion

As for when to abort, I dunno, something like a month before birth... Just as long as they dont leave it 2 seconds before the !@#$% is free...

Doctor: "I think I can see the head..."
Mother: "KILL IT. KILL IT WITH FIRE. IT'S NOT TOO LATE."

XDXDXD

[dehvknull]

dehvknull

Re: Abortion

Ugh, I hate abortion arguments. No offense, but it's such an open-ended discussion, there's just no way to pressure your views onto others without the use of violence.

I pretty much think that abortion is up to the mother or the couple going through with it. I don't think it matters whether or not the fetus can feel pain. Until the child is born, it's just apart of the mother's body and she, or the couple, are the only ones who can decide whether or not to kill it.

Does it become a human when it exits the vagina, or when it is disconnected from the mother?

I don't think it matters, but the latter, IMO. I suppose in keeping to my opinion it is still apart of the mother when it is connected to her, although I don't think that point is valid to my argument.

So, it's okay to kill a newborn baby that still has the umbilical cord?

If the baby is aborted, it should probably be aborted before labor occurs. You wouldn't kill it while labor is occurring, and you'd have to be a pretty sick person to kill a newborn baby. An abortion should be undertaken months beforehand, and I'm fairly sure there's some kind of law on when a baby can be aborted, anyway.

But what difference does it make. For what specific reason is abortion okay before labor, but not after labor. Laws are unimportant as far as this is concerned.

The law was only backing the point of my argument. Of course you have to consider the first point I made in my first post: "it's such an open-ended discussion, there's just no way to pressure your views onto others without the use of violence." I wouldn't abort my child, but I can understand the reasoning for the people who would. Some people just don't have the time to care for a child, they have THEIR OWN LIVES to get on with.

If a woman had a chance of dieing if she went through with a pregnancy, then shouldn't she protect her own life by killing her baby (unless he was against it)? It's like killing in self-defense, sometimes you do need to kill to protect yourself. And for some people, not being able to continue their education or career is worse than death. They should have the right to protect their lives, and their bodies.

But as I said, open-ended.

I see no reason why adoption can't serve the same purpose.

Well I mean, sure, if the couple would instead prefer to put the child up for adoption, it's their choice. But there's also the condition of ruining a woman's body or even dieing during or after pregnancy that makes abortion somewhat suitable.

So are you saying that appearance is more important than a child's life? Practically no one thinks that abortion should be illegal in the case where the woman's life is at risk.

No, I was referring to physical injuries.

And I'd hope not.

What about cases not involving either?

then oh well. its not your kid. boo fuckin hoo. get over it. people die every day, just as people are born every day. you'll get over it.

So by your logic, we shouldn't have any laws.

[ZonZon9000]

ZonZon9000

Re: Abortion

I think theres something Christians, and any other religion should re-read from the bible.
God Gave man Free Will.

So. Shut the !@#$% up. Thank you.

Yes, but God also made it pretty clear that killing someone was very wrong.

Hello, mom?

[bertfallen]

bertfallen

Re: Abortion

I think theres something Christians, and any other religion should re-read from the bible.
God Gave man Free Will.

So. Shut the !@#$% up. Thank you.

Yes, but God also made it pretty clear that killing someone was very wrong.

Well that was more towards the point that religious people should steer clear of other peoples lives. And didn't God give free will so we can chose to do the right thing or the wrong thing. So basically yes, you can go and kill someone because you've got free will, but its the wrong thing to do so dont expect to go by unpunished.

[dehvknull]

dehvknull

Re: Abortion

I think theres something Christians, and any other religion should re-read from the bible.
God Gave man Free Will.

So. Shut the !@#$% up. Thank you.

Yes, but God also made it pretty clear that killing someone was very wrong.

Well that was more towards the point that religious people should steer clear of other peoples lives. And didn't God give free will so we can chose to do the right thing or the wrong thing. So basically yes, you can go and kill someone because you've got free will, but its the wrong thing to do so dont expect to go by unpunished.

... and I don't believe in God.