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Author Topic: Evolution  (Read 15758 times)

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Evolution
« on: June 20, 2007, 05:14:58 pm »
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Yeah, I'd like to debate evolution.  I think it's ridiculous that it even has to be debated at all, when paleontologists oppose it more than Christians.

I just have one quick note for all you supporters of it: calling me a Christian fundamentalist does not debunk my arguments.  Try using facts and evidence to disprove me instead of name-calling.  (I have a headache, just thinking about last time we discussed this.)

So we don't have evidence for evolution, and even our examples of natural selection in real time are weak.  For example, the fake peppered-moth discovery.  It was determined that there were too many problems for this to be evidence for natural selection when the moths (1) slept during the day when the birds were awake and (2) they actually slept under the branches, not on the trunks of trees.

So you have scam after scam after scam in evidence for evolution, and you're left with just about nothing.  We don't even have an example of natural selection in modern time (for those of you who'd like to point to pesticides and insect resistence: note that natural selection is reffering to random mutations creating favorable characteristics).

Anyone have a case to argue?
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2007, 05:29:13 pm »
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[off-topic]
There was this program I was watching last night I think it was about the first person to oppose religion, and it got me thinking, you can't really believe something without questioning it. People who say 'Why should I question my Religion/Theory?' Are just arrogant, the more you question the more you begin to understand about it. Thats how we got to knowing so much about our planet and surroundings. Anyway Random thought of my chest.
[/off-topic]

[on-topic]
I believe the idea behind Evolution, but I also feel religion plays a major role in everyday life, I can't really explain it, its rather difficult for someone of my intelligence (>_>). And I haven't really properly read up on Evolution theories and evidence (Any one got any material I could read up on?) so I'm not going to be very good at all in this topic :(.
[/on-topic]
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2007, 05:33:52 pm »
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There was this program I was watching last night I think it was about the first person to oppose religion, and it got me thinking, you can't really believe something without questioning it. People who say 'Why should I question my Religion/Theory?' Are just arrogant, the more you question the more you begin to understand about it. Thats how we got to knowing so much about our planet and surroundings. Anyway Random thought of my chest.
Evolutionists love to say that we should be questioning our religion, but they're constantly waiting for evidence to support their ideas.  And when evidence goes against their idea, they'll just say, "Well, that doesn't disprove it."  True story.

If you haven't read much about it, that's probably why you still believe it.  Evolution by means of natural selection seems to make sense at first, and by all means doesn't disprove God in any way, shape or form, but once you get into how it would actually work if it was real... it's more abstract than the idea of trinity (which my religion actually doesn't believe in, either).

[EDIT]

You have things like Haekel's fake, still used to "prove" evolution.  You have things like the fake Archaeoraptor Liaoningensis.  And then you have the 5 to 10 million provable years of the Cambrian explosion (simply because we don't have the means to narrow that period of time down anymore than that).  Oh... their soft-bodied anscestors weren't able to fossilize?  Explain to me the Chinese pre-Cambrian (almost all soft-bodied) discoveries.

Anyone remember Piltdown man?  Nebraska man?  Java man?  Ocre man?

Now explain to me a piece of strong evidence that ISN'T a fraud.  (Note: strong evidence is not inclusive of the observation that monkies look like humans.)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 05:49:42 pm by 2awesome4apossum »
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2007, 06:04:20 pm »
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I view it as this:
Creationism is even more far fetched than Evolution. I'm sorry, but the idea of things just popping into existance seems so...rediculous...

I don't view evolution as 'proven', but i'd say it's a damn sight more realistic than a lot of the other theories out there.

Also I don't see evolution as 'pure natural selection'. The mutation sometimes can come before the adaption. An example being the blue budgey. They were all yellow, until a mutation made a blue one. Now we have many blue ones, because while the mutation wasn't helpful, it wasn't harmful, so the gene continued to exist and be bred.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2007, 06:07:31 pm »
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Hey guys, where'd god come from? Does he have a mother?


Really though, evolution is so obvious. I mean, we do carry on genes from our ancestors and all that, and sometimes something odd happens with them causing a weird mutation, like my nipple. I'm totally superior over everyone because I have a THIRD nipple, w00t. And that gene (if I have kids, that is) will go on and on and on, hell, what if in 1000 years EVERYONE Has 3 nipples :D. That'd be evolution, right?
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2007, 06:30:06 pm »
2a4p, you've reached a new low.

How about dinosaurs? How about fossils? How about the genetic similarities between animals? How about COMMON SENSE?

A topic like this has no place in a "Debates" board. What next? Global Warming is a left-wing liberal scam? Sure man, sure. Keep living in that dreamworld.


Seriously, WTF @ you.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2007, 06:34:43 pm »
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Well, while not maybe a scam, some of the so-called Evidence for "Global Warming" is pretty odd. And remember what...40 years ago? Everyone said we were having "Global Freezing" and "the world was getting colder". Something odd happens, and we immediately go "OH NOES! TEH WORLD IS DYING!!1!!1!!!111"
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2007, 06:39:31 pm »
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So we don't have evidence for evolution, and even our examples of natural selection in real time are weak.  For example, the fake peppered-moth discovery.  It was determined that there were too many problems for this to be evidence for natural selection when the moths (1) slept during the day when the birds were awake and (2) they actually slept under the branches, not on the trunks of trees.

Peppered moths do not rest exclusively on tree trunks, but they do rest there. Of the forty-seven moths one researcher found in the wild, twelve were on trunks and twenty were on trunk/branch joints.

Although the experiments were not perfect, they were not fatally flawed. Even though Kettlewell released his moths in daylight when a night release would have been more true to nature, he used the same procedure in areas that differed only in the amount of industrial pollution, showing that industrial pollution was a factor responsible for the difference in color.

If you want more examples of natural selection, let's not forget darwin's finches; they are a great example of natural selection.

So yeah, your points are quite weak. What are you going to bring up next, bombardier beetles? (the most debunked creationist argument ever.)


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Yeah, I'd like to debate evolution.  I think it's ridiculous that it even has to be debated at all, when paleontologists oppose it more than Christians.

No, the most ridiculous thing is that evolution is one of the most well supported theories in science (without it, most of biology wouldn't make sense), and creationists continue to wrongly insist that it's false. They result to ad hominem and strawmen, and then pretend that the other side has no answer.

I just have one quick note for all you supporters of it: calling me a Christian fundamentalist does not debunk my arguments.  Try using facts and evidence to disprove me instead of name-calling.

Lol, 'those darn 'evil-lutionists' (read: zionists), always foiling my plans.'

Well, while not maybe a scam, some of the so-called Evidence for "Global Warming" is pretty odd. And remember what...40 years ago? Everyone said we were having "Global Freezing" and "the world was getting colder". Something odd happens, and we immediately go "OH NOES! TEH WORLD IS DYING!!1!!1!!!111"

GTFO of this topic, we're debating evolution here. Get your own topic. <_<
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2007, 06:45:07 pm »
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2a4p, you've reached a new low.
Thanks for demeaning me Dascu.

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How about dinosaurs?
What about them proves evolution?

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How about fossils?
Where in the fossil record is evolution evidenced?

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How about the genetic similarities between animals?
How about them?  What about genetic similarities between us and dasies?

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How about COMMON SENSE?
And this, my friend, is why you will win every debate on evolution.  "It's already a fact, dumb-head."  And you win, because you say it's fact, and ridiculous to believe otherwise.  Obviously I think the earth is flat now. <_<

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A topic like this has no place in a "Debates" board. What next? Global Warming is a left-wing liberal scam? Sure man, sure. Keep living in that dreamworld.
The only dreamworld I see is the one that you live in that says evolution is a fact.

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Seriously, WTF @ you.
Serious, your constant trolling of other users is really starting to get to me.  Can we move on with our lives?

At the other two posts: this debate isn't about whether creationism is correct or not.  It's about whether EVOLUTION is correct or not.

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Peppered moths do not rest exclusively on tree trunks, but they do rest there. Of the forty-seven moths one researcher found in the wild, twelve were on trunks and twenty were on trunk/branch joints.

Although the experiments were not perfect, they were not fatally flawed. Even though Kettlewell released his moths in daylight when a night release would have been more true to nature, he used the same procedure in areas that differed only in the amount of industrial pollution, showing that industrial pollution was a factor responsible for the difference in color.
Okay, so you're saying that his experiments weren't perfect, but "good enough" to prove the point of evolution?

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If you want more examples of natural selection, let's not forget darwin's finches; they are a great example of natural selection.
The beak sizes changed back and forth... uh... hmm.  Don't get me wrong: I believe in natural selection, just not evolution, but it's still ridiculously hard to understand how that example proves the theory of natural selection.
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Dascu

Re: Evolution
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2007, 06:54:00 pm »
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2a4p, you've reached a new low.
Thanks for demeaning me Dascu.
It's because I really don't like you anymore.

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How about dinosaurs?
What about them proves evolution?
Age of the earth (earth layers and such), dinosaurs that evolved from eachother, very likely link to birds, shows species didn't just pop up at random.

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How about fossils?
Where in the fossil record is evolution evidenced?
Different forms of prototype animals.

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How about the genetic similarities between animals?
How about them?  What about genetic similarities between us and dasies?
Very strong evidence that we evolved from a common ancestor.

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How about COMMON SENSE?
And this, my friend, is why you will win every debate on evolution.  "It's already a fact, dumb-head."  And you win, because you say it's fact, and ridiculous to believe otherwise.  Obviously I think the earth is flat now. <_<
Yeah, sorry. Logic wins, unless you can show me evolution is a complete fraud. And no, don't bother showing up with a handful of fakes or misinterpreted fossils/data. That'd be like saying fabricated miracles debunk religion.


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A topic like this has no place in a "Debates" board. What next? Global Warming is a left-wing liberal scam? Sure man, sure. Keep living in that dreamworld.
The only dreamworld I see is the one that you live in that says evolution is a fact.
Real life sucks, doesn't it.

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Seriously, WTF @ you.
Serious, your constant trolling of other users is really starting to get to me.  Can we move on with our lives?
I liked you better when you left ZFGC.



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Re: Evolution
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2007, 06:56:20 pm »
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Oh noes, Possum is resorting to his victim complex!!!1on3

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Okay, so you're saying that his experiments weren't perfect, but "good enough" to prove the point of evolution?

Yeah, considering there's tons more evidence than just that.

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What about them (dinosaurs) proves evolution?

Well, the fact that there were no modern animals among all of those prehistoric fossils...

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Where in the fossil record is evolution evidenced?

TRANSITIONAL FOSSILS, LOL.

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How about them?  What about genetic similarities between us and dasies?

LOL STRAWMAN

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And this, my friend, is why you will win every debate on evolution.  "It's already a fact, dumb-head."  And you win, because you say it's fact, and ridiculous to believe otherwise.  Obviously I think the earth is flat now. <_<

Evolution is already a fact, dumb-head.  8)

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The only dreamworld I see is the one that you live in that says evolution is a fact.

You dream about debates? I always dream about naked women.

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Serious, your constant trolling of other users is really starting to get to me.  Can we move on with our lives?

LOL IRONY.

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At the other two posts: this debate isn't about whether creationism is correct or not.  It's about whether EVOLUTION is correct or not.

And as we've already said, Evolution is well-supported.

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The beak sizes changed back and forth... uh... hmm.  Don't get me wrong: I believe in natural selection, just not evolution, but it's still ridiculously hard to understand how that example proves the theory of natural selection.


Natural selection plays a big role in evolution, lol.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2007, 06:59:25 pm »
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How about the fact that the first life on Earth was bacteria? New species didn't just magically appear (contrary to religious belief), they evolved from those extremely basic lifeforms.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2007, 07:00:23 pm »
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I've never known anyone to not agree with evolution. Not that we shouldn't doubt what's told to us, but aside from it making perfect sense, there's no reason *not* to believe it. How can you 'agree' with natural selection, but not evolution? Please explain.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2007, 07:01:50 pm »
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Natural selection plays a big role in evolution, lol.
But natural selection doesn't prove evolution, although evolution would prove natural selection.  Remember that natural selection is just the means for the idea of evolution.  Natural selection isn't evolution itself, because it can happen within a species.  Evolution says that a species can change into a different species.

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TRANSITIONAL FOSSILS, LOL.
Examples, please.

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LOL STRAWMAN
I wasn't using that in the context you think I was.  Does having similar DNA really mean anything?

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How about the fact that the first life on Earth was bacteria? New species didn't just magically appear (contrary to religious belief), they evolved from those extremely basic lifeforms.
Explain the cambrian explosion, and how do we know the first form of life on earth was bacteria?  (I agree that it was, but I'm not sure that you can say that.)

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I've never known anyone to not agree with evolution. Not that we shouldn't doubt what's told to us, but aside from it making perfect sense, there's no reason *not* to believe it. How can you 'agree' with natural selection, but not evolution? Please explain.
Natural selection is "survival of the fittest".  Evolution is "fish turns into bird over time through natural selection".
« Last Edit: June 20, 2007, 07:04:46 pm by 2awesome4apossum »
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2007, 07:04:57 pm »
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Not based on any real example, just me ranting ;)
The beak gets shorter. Okay, what about the wings? Say smaller wings allowed for better survival? Great. Oh wait, now predators are in the sky, okay, so the wings are useless because when we fly, the other animals get us...wonderful...so, we stay lower in the ground. Oh wait, trees. Okay, we need better feet to grip onto the trees to help us survive. Oh wait, now out blue colour makes us stand out more, well that's mutated and changed. Wonderful. Hey, wait a minute, are we even the same species anymore? Oh !@#$%, now the predators are lower down! AHH! RUN! Okay, now we need something to defend ourselves with. Wow, look how sharp my talons are! ACK DIE EVIL PREDATORS! Oh no, now the predators all have thicker skin, out talons won't pierce them! Oh no! THE SLOWER, LARGER BIRDS ARE DYING! The small are surviving, YAY!

So, from a Small taloned, large, blue-feathered, large beaked bird. We end up with a small beaked, small, brown feathered bird with large talons. Are they even the same animal anymore? Wait, what happens if they spend so much time on the ground, some of them are slowly born with smaller and smaller wings and manage to survive? Then the wings are mutated away, They clearly are not birds anymore, they lack wings.

Essentially the concept behind evolution is that an animal, which will randomly mutate and change anyway, is also trying to compete with the environment, and other animals, as well as predators. This limits the mutations that are able to survive. Strickly speaking, Evolution is more like a mixture between random mutations, and natural selection. Both of which have been observed on smaller scales in human lifetimes.

Then we get into the rarely bizzare mutations, where chromosomes are lost and gained. That's where things start to get interesting.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2007, 07:09:35 pm »
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Eh, I'd rather not go into a great amount of detail with this so I'll keep it short. 

I believe in the God of gods, but I also believe in evolution.  I think there is still a great deal to learn about all of its intricacies, but I definitely believe that species are capable of changing a great deal over large spans of time.  I believe in creationism in the sense that God set up all the dominoes and then knocked over the first one.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2007, 07:14:41 pm »
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But natural selection doesn't prove evolution, although evolution would prove natural selection.  Remember that natural selection is just the means for the idea of evolution.  Natural selection isn't evolution itself, because it can happen within a species.  Evolution says that a species can change into a different species.

So then, where do the changes in evolution come from, if not natural selection?

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Examples, please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

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I wasn't using that in the context you think I was.  Does having similar DNA really mean anything?

Means that we had a common ancestor.

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Explain the cambrian explosion, and how do we know the first form of life on earth was bacteria?  (I agree that it was, but I'm not sure that you can say that.)

THINK FOR A SECOND. You don't start out complex and work down, you've gotta start simple, and then grow complex.

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Natural selection is "survival of the fittest".  Evolution is "fish turns into bird over time through natural selection".

And through your own example, you can see that they are directly related. Are you paying attention?
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2007, 07:26:58 pm »
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I believe in God, I also believe that the Adam and Eva story and God created the world in 7 days (actually 6, 7th day he rested) are moralistic stories (don't ask me what the moral of the story 'God created the world in 7 days' is), and I do believe in evolution. I mean common, there's so much evidence, dinosaur fossils in different layers of earth (time), clearly showing the dinosaur species evolved (like Dascu said). And ever heard of the Galapagos isles (or whatever they're called), I'm not an expert on that area, but I believe it's a clear example of evolution, birds adopting to the climate on an island.
Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion, but I just think people who don't believe in evolution are brainwashed by the church.
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2007, 07:54:05 pm »
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When humans are in development, they have gill slits.  Yes, gill slits just like what fish have.  Which means that there's a shared gene somewhere which means a common ancestor, therefore more than likely, evolution.  Just my 2 cents.

edit: I know someone is going to think i'm an idiot, so here's an article.

http://www.rae.org/gillslit.html
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Re: Evolution
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2007, 07:56:54 pm »
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2a4p, you've reached a new low.

How about dinosaurs? How about fossils? How about the genetic similarities between animals? How about COMMON SENSE?

A topic like this has no place in a "Debates" board. What next? Global Warming is a left-wing liberal scam? Sure man, sure. Keep living in that dreamworld.


Seriously, WTF @ you.

Actually the whole Global Warming from man-made carbon dioxide emissions is a fraud.
Just like the neo-cons have their War on Terror, the socialist democrats have their War on Global Warming, which really has no solution to pollution. It only involves world population reduction aka genocide, and paying another new tax to the international bankers for breathing in air... they call it the carbon tax.
The whole theory is anti-science bull put out by the UN. Not a very good example against Mr. Possum :P
Ha, when I read "Global warming is a fraud" I instantly thought, "That's the kind of thing devout would say"
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