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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 21184 times)

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Abortion
« on: August 10, 2007, 09:46:44 pm »
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I read this article some months ago in a Biology class, and I think it's a nice topic to debate. I translated the text (I used google translation, but I revised that translation to be sure there were no drastic mistakes such as translating the word "revista" to "reviewed" instead of "magazine"...), so if anything sounds somehow strange (and possibly with grammar errors), tell me please.

EDIT: I just discovered that for some reason the table of prices was totally messed up. It's fixed now.

TRANSLATED ARTICLE (IN ENGLISH)

Quote
THE PAIN AN EMBRYO FEELS: HOW MUCH IS HUMAN LIFE WORTH?
 
by Emanuelle Carvalho Moura



The relations between embryo and pain are objects of innumerable scientific research, ZENIT (June 7th, 2006) notified the studies of neonatologist professor K.J.S. Anand, "Studious of world-wide reputation demonstrates that embryos experience pain", published officially in the "Pain Clinical Updates", magazine of the International Association of the Study of Pain, the world-wide most authorized source on the subject, which declares: "The scientific evidence shows how possible and also probable the perception of pain in the embryo starts before the advanced period of gestation".

New Zealand Scientists had described in "Archives of Disease in Childhood: Fetal and Neonatal Edition", through ultrasound images, reactions of embryos to low noise: "some embryos of only 28 weeks had answered with a series of intense inhalations and exhalations, an opening of the mouth and contraction of the tongue, as well as a depression in the chest. This activity typically finished after 20 seconds with an exhalation and a degradation". Ed Mitchell observes that "you can even see the chin and the superior lip trembling (...) I don't think this could be anything but cry". (Tribuna da Imprensa [NOTE: this is the name of a Brazilian newspaper], November 19th, 2005, in: "Embryos cry when annoyed, says the research").

In May 11th, 2004, the agency ZENIT did an interview with Dr. Carlo Bellieni, "Proved pain of embryos makes scientists to reflect", when inquired if embryos felt pain, he answered: "Certainly yes. It not only feels pain, but its perception seems to be deeper than the one of a bigger child. We know this because many of the "strategies" that are put in charge not to feel pain after the birth lack in the fetal life". When alerting about the human dignity the embryo, Bellieni declares: "Modern neonatologists have the privilege to take care of the embryos. We have them on our hands: they usually weight an apple: some are little bigger than a hand. They had been born prematurely and during months they will have to remain in sophisticated incubators, having doctors taking care and controlling them 24 hours a day with instruments of high technology. And to none of them it is put in doubt that they are our patients, that they are people. Sometimes, they are so small that our efforts are useless. They die. And all we can is to, next to the parents, baptize them. And all of them demonstrate an unexpected vitality for the age and the dimensions. Today we know that the embryo inside of the maternal uterus perceives odors and flavors. It hears the sounds. It remembers them after the birth. We will soon know that embryos, after 30 weeks of gestation, are capable to dream. All these characteristics allow us to appreciate human dimensions. This patient, in recent years, was object of investigations to guarantee health since the maternal uterus".

The practice of abortion, regularized in some countries, makes the number of dead embryos to be one of the greatest causes of human mortality, more than epidemics or wars. In May 10th of 2006 an information under the title: "En Europa se realiza un aborto a cada treinta segundos" [in Spanish, "In Europe an abortion is done in each 30 seconds"], evidences: "Less and less children are being born, while thousands of abortions are converted into, together with cancer, the main cause of death in Europe". The legalization of abortion generates immense profits for the companies that deal with this "business"; in June 28th, 2006, ACI notified "Abortist transnational collects nearly 900 million dollar per year": "After an unexplainable delay of seven months, the PPFA (Planned Parenthood Federation of America), the greatest abortist organization of the world, emitted its financial report of the period July 2004 - June 2005, in which shows that its total collection reaches nearly 900 million dollar. (...) The report also presents the alarming cipher of abortions done by this organization: 255,015 abortions, generating 108 million dollar. The report avoided mentioning the amount of pregnant women who died in the clinic as consequence of the practiced abortions".

Apart from the profits that these companies get, after the legalization of the practical abortive, there is a clandestine commerce of traffic of organs and parts of the bodies of aborted babies, as Andrew Goliszek, PhD in Biology and Physiology for the State University of the Utah, denounced in the United States through the book: "In the Name of the Science", revealing that a single baby could be worth up to 14 thousand dollars, if separated and sold in parts, for diverse industries of scientific research:

Non-Processed Sample (> 8 weeks) - US$ 70
Non-Processed Sample (< 8 weeks) - US$ 50
Liver (< 8 weeks) -  30% of discount, if significantly fragmented - US$ 150
Liver (> 8 weeks) -  30% of discount, if significantly fragmented - US$ 125
Spleen (< 8 weeks) -  30% of discount, if significantly fragmented - US$ 75
Spleen (> 8 weeks) -  30% of discount, if significantly fragmented - US$ 50
Pancreas (< 8 weeks) - US$ 100
Pancreas (> 8 weeks) - US$ 75
Thymus (< 8 weeks) - US$ 100
Thymus (> 8 weeks) - US$ 75
Brain (< 8 weeks) - 30% of discounting, if significantly fragmented - US$ 999
Brain (> 8 weeks) - 30% of discounting, if significantly fragmented - US$ 150
Pituitary gland (> 8 weeks) - US$ 300
Bone Marrow (< 8 weeks) - US$ 370
Bone Marrow (> 8 weeks) - US$ 250
Ears (< 8 weeks) - US$ 75
Eyes (> 8 weeks) - 40% of discount for only one eye - US$ 75
Lungs and Cardiac Block - US$ 150
Intact Embryo Corpse (< 8 weeks) - US$ 400
Intact Embryo Corpse (> 8 weeks) - US$ 600
Intact trunk with/without members - US$ 500

Valid prices up to December 31st, 1999 "



The book also denounces how these babies are lacerated in order to obtain a better sample; one of the fetal reapers reveals: "Nauseated from the process, a technician says that many of those births had alive embryos. The physicians simply broke the embryo's thin neck or killed them by hitting them with metal nippers. In some cases, they started the dissection by cutting to open the thorax, supposing that the baby was already dead, only to discover that the heart was still beating. She also added that the way the abortions were done had been modified, that is, they are done more deliberately and slowly, in order to guarantee that the baby is taken off before it dies. When the rhythm of the abortions would increase, the alive babies that were taken off sometimes would have their parts removed before being dead".

Another deposition, from the nurse Brenda Shafer, describes: "I was standing beside the doctor and I attended him with the abortion of a partial birth in a woman who was pregnant of six months. The heartbeats of the baby were clearly visible in the screen of the ultrasound. The doctor made the childbirth of the body and arms of the baby, everything except its little head. The body of the baby was moving. His fingers were pressed. He was kicking with his feet. The doctor then picked a pair of scissors, inserted them in the back of the baby's head and the arm of the baby shook, a frightening reaction, as a baby makes when he is afraid of falling. So then, the doctor opened the scissors. Later, he introduced a tube of aspiration in high power inside the hole and inhaled the brain of the baby. Then, the baby was entirely flaccid. I never came back to the clinic again. But the face of that little boy still haunts me. It was the most perfect angelical face I ever saw."

It is previewed that this market is worth more than a billion of dollar per year, as many women assent in carrying through an abortion of more and more delayed time to gain more money with the laceration of the proper child that supplies this market of carnage.

The denunciation of Andrew Goliszek is recent and, before, in the book "Babies to Burn. The industry of abortions in England", the independent journalists Michael Litchfield and Susan Kentish, in the end of the decade of 1970, had published in the chapter "Babies for soap factories", as a doctor revealed about the commerce of babies, therefore: "People who live in the neighborhoods of my clinic have if complained of the smell of burnt human meat. The smell comes from the incinerator. It is not properly a pleasant smell. They say that it smells like a field of Nazi extermination during the last war. I do not know how they can know smell it of a field of Nazi extermination, but I do not want to argue the fact. Therefore, I am always looking after a way to eliminate the embryos without having to burn them". The Law of Abortion in England allows it until the 28 weeks and demands that the clinics burn the embryo aborted in incinerators, thus, they can have a bigger age than the one foreseen in law at the moment of murder, or even to be sold and used for lucrative means, because the is no way to know when they had been murdered, since they would have supposedly been burnt. The abortist English doctor continues his account: "Many of the babies I remove are completely formed and live a little, before being eliminated. In one morning there were four of them, one to beside the other, crying as desperate. I had no time to kill them at the time there, because I had too much on. It was a waste to throw them in the incinerator, because they had much animal fat that could be commercialized". In the chapter "the lacerators of babies", of the same book, when evaluating internationally, the English journalists publish the certification of an abortist North American doctor, Dr. Ridley, who points: "The 'racket' of late abortion is divided in two parts: One consists in making the abortion in the final phase of pregnancy, but conserving the child alive, although the mother thinks it is dead. Later the child is sold to adoption and we (the doctors) stay with the profit. Some children are ordered to be adopted in England. This country lacks newborn babies for adoption, because of the Law of the Abortion. The other part consists in selling the embryos for scientific researches. The children are officially dead. But they are kept alive, though not registered as alive. Therefore, they can be used in any series of experiments. Some are kept alive for more than one year, without being officially born. Others are used in tests for cures for illnesses such as malaria, leukemia, or surgeries for transplant.

The French newspaper "Le Figaro" published in December 27th of 2006 about the increased the human traffic: http://www.genethique.org/revues/revues/2006/decembre/20061227.2.asp: "Human Traffic: lucrative business" and evidences the slavery of the new times: "In Albania, children are abandoned or conceived to be sold later. A private report compiled by the embassy Greek in Tyrant discloses that "they are assassinated to have their organs sold". Certain people support this traffic, sometimes even asking for legalization, as a cardiologist from Athens did. According to him, "don't understand why poor people shouldn't supply the needs of the rich ones". The article also cites cases of parents who sell their children and families that "cannot have children". In Greece, where private adoption is legal, surrogate mothers have been imprisoned".

Completely innocent and with no capability of defending itself, the embryo still feels the pain of each part of its murdered body: gather all the legalized abortions of Europe with the ones of U.S.A., Japan, China, India and many countries, and imagine, then, the scream, under the curtain of the womb its own mother, that moans in front of the red ocean of innocent blood that bathes the planet. Will there be a group of the excluded from the society better represented than those who had their lives suppressed yet in the belly of their mother, with consent of her and many times of the father, who are the ones who generated them? There is no greater exclusion than the one provoked by abortion: aversion by the mother, the father, the doctors, co-responsible nurses and technician; exclusion of the society that finances, through taxes, the crime in the public centers of health; hatred of all those who fight for the ideology of the free choice to kill at any cost and does not measure the catastrophic consequences that these ideas imply. From this exclusion, there appears the market of the ones who profit selling their own children, or generating it until the moment in which it will give more money for each part of the processed body. The reduction of the dignity of the life since the conception, seen as mere object, reduces the inestimable value of the human being to something that money can pay.






Now discuss please.

PS: If anyone prefers to read the Portuguese version of the article, I've attached it to this post
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 12:04:45 pm by sjegtp »
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 11:45:39 pm »
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One thing I can't decide on is the line between not producing as much children as possible and murdering someone. I didn't word that too well, but what are your opinions about it?
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2007, 12:15:48 am »
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One thing I can't decide on is the line between not producing as much children as possible and murdering someone. I didn't word that too well, but what are your opinions about it?
IMO, in the case of european countries that have too low birth rates, producing more children wouldn't be a problem. But in the case of populous countries such as China or India it's clearly different...

But if you can give the child to adoption, why abort the kid? Then I think it's better to make abortion illegal (except in cases in which, for instance, the life of the mother is in risk) rather than letting people have their kids killed and sell the organs...
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2007, 12:18:02 am »
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One thing I can't decide on is the line between not producing as much children as possible and murdering someone. I didn't word that too well, but what are your opinions about it?
IMO, in the case of european countries that have too low birth rates, producing more children wouldn't be a problem. But in the case of populous countries such as China or India it's clearly different...

But if you can give the child to adoption, why abort the kid? Then I think it's better to make abortion illegal (except in cases in which, for instance, the life of the mother is in risk) rather than letting people have their kids killed and sell the organs...
What I mean is where does it cross the line. Abstinence? Contraception? Early abortion? Late abortion? Murder?
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2007, 12:49:10 am »
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What I mean is where does it cross the line. Abstinence? Contraception? Early abortion? Late abortion? Murder?
Ah, I see your point. If you don't consider the religious point, aborting a child of 1 month would be the same of aborting a child of 6 months, because in both cases the child would be dead after all. So they try to analyze if the child can think, if the heart is beating, if it feels pain...

I'm not religious or anything, but IMO killing the child with 1 or 6 months is the same. It's still better to give the child to adoption.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2007, 01:50:10 am »
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What I mean is where does it cross the line. Abstinence? Contraception? Early abortion? Late abortion? Murder?
Ah, I see your point. If you don't consider the religious point, aborting a child of 1 month would be the same of aborting a child of 6 months, because in both cases the child would be dead after all. So they try to analyze if the child can think, if the heart is beating, if it feels pain...

I'm not religious or anything, but IMO killing the child with 1 or 6 months is the same. It's still better to give the child to adoption.
I don't care about religion, but I see your point. But where exactly do you think it crosses the line?
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2007, 03:46:40 am »
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Early abortion.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2007, 03:49:11 am »
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Early abortion.
Is it because of the egg being fertilized, pain, that it prevents a child from being born, or something else?
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2007, 03:57:45 am »
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Is it because of the egg being fertilized, pain, that it prevents a child from being born, or something else?
Because it prevents a child from being born.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2007, 03:59:41 am »
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Is it because of the egg being fertilized, pain, that it prevents a child from being born, or something else?
Because it prevents a child from being born.
Then couldn't that also apply to contraception?
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2007, 04:06:15 am »
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Is it because of the egg being fertilized, pain, that it prevents a child from being born, or something else?
Because it prevents a child from being born.
Then couldn't that also apply to contraception?
Yeah, but contraception is something you can avoid. But if it comes to a point in which you have to remove the child it's worse. That's why I think it should be early abortion.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2007, 04:08:32 am »
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Is it because of the egg being fertilized, pain, that it prevents a child from being born, or something else?
Because it prevents a child from being born.
Then couldn't that also apply to contraception?
Yeah, but contraception is something you can avoid. But if it comes to a point in which you have to remove the child it's worse. That's why I think it should be early abortion.
Sorry, I don't understand. Please rephrase that.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2007, 04:14:23 am »
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I mean, you can use condoms and anticonceptionals to avoid conception (yeah, it's conception, not contraception >.<), but after that you would have to kill the embryo. That's why I think it's early abortion what crosses the line.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2007, 04:16:50 am »
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I mean, you can use condoms and anticonceptionals to avoid conception (yeah, it's conception, not contraception >.<), but after that you would have to kill the embryo. That's why I think it's early abortion what crosses the line.
So you consider it to be immoral once the egg is fertilized?
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2007, 04:22:57 am »
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I mean, you can use condoms and anticonceptionals to avoid conception (yeah, it's conception, not contraception >.<), but after that you would have to kill the embryo. That's why I think it's early abortion what crosses the line.
So you consider it to be immoral once the egg is fertilized?
Not at all... there is a pill (I don't know its name in english) that a woman can take one day after the conception to kill the egg if she didn't use a condom or anticonceptionals, but waiting months to remove the kid is something different...


Aw... this very complex :\
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2007, 04:24:49 am »
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I mean, you can use condoms and anticonceptionals to avoid conception (yeah, it's conception, not contraception >.<), but after that you would have to kill the embryo. That's why I think it's early abortion what crosses the line.
So you consider it to be immoral once the egg is fertilized?
Not at all... there is a pill (I don't know its name in english) that a woman can take one day after the conception to kill the egg if she didn't use a condom or anticonceptionals, but waiting months to remove the kid is something different...


Aw... this very complex :\
Exactly. I was hoping for some insight on this topic, but I'm still unsure. :(
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2007, 06:12:40 am »
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...

Anyway, I'm against abortion for the most part. The only real reason I can come up with for a moralistic abortion would be if the mother's life was in danger. Otherwise, adoption is the way to go.
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The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone thought to themselves "You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire." - George Carlin

(!@#$%)

Hear the haunting words (They'll find you alone)
lost children with no heart are crying (Turning their hearts into stone)
and you're the lost mother they're calling
Go now, run and hide (seek more than vengeance)
I hear them crying at night (your pain is their satisfaction)
outside when the planets are falling (for the rest of time)
They want to feel and know you hear them (Go now, run and hide)

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2007, 06:15:53 am »
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...

Anyway, I'm against abortion for the most part. The only real reason I can come up with for a moralistic abortion would be if the mother's life was in danger. Otherwise, adoption is the way to go.
I agree with you, but what do you think the border is?
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2007, 06:18:04 am »
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Define "border."
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The very existence of flamethrowers proves that sometime, somewhere, someone thought to themselves "You know, I really want to set those people over there on fire." - George Carlin

(!@#$%)

Hear the haunting words (They'll find you alone)
lost children with no heart are crying (Turning their hearts into stone)
and you're the lost mother they're calling
Go now, run and hide (seek more than vengeance)
I hear them crying at night (your pain is their satisfaction)
outside when the planets are falling (for the rest of time)
They want to feel and know you hear them (Go now, run and hide)

  • http://giantcock.netne.net/
Re: Abortion
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2007, 07:10:38 am »
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Define "border."
As I have said earlier in the topic; where does it begin to become wrong, from abstinence to murder?
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