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Author Topic: When is lying okay?  (Read 11101 times)

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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2007, 04:23:36 am »
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Quote from: kirbyy on November 03, 2007, 02:06:19 am
Quote from: dannyjenn on November 01, 2007, 03:38:45 pm
If you leave out information then it's your fault because normally you assume that people don't leave out important information.  No one asks a question and then says, "tell me everything that you know."  The same with misleading them... people don't ask a question and then say, "tell me only what you know for fact is 100% true."  They aren't misinterpretting the information, they are interpretting it correctly assuming you're answering like a normal person and not some crazy guy who leaves out half of it and adds in random stuff that "could have happened".

absolutely correct, great post. lying is by definition to deceive another person purposely in any way.

adding to that, lying is patronising, and should therefor be avoided at all costs. unless you are in a clear state of superiority (and that is very rare, like when dealing with emotionally unstable persons or very young children) lying is very unethical. there are exceptions, but those are less relevant for the discussion at hand.

the argument "the end justifies the means" is selfish inconsiderate and self-destructive, especially when dealing with human lives. if you think it's okay to even sacrifice one person's life with the goal of finding a cure for a disease or whatever, then be that person and subject yourself to horrible tests which give us insight in the science of humans.

Islam terrorism is build on the pure belief that everything that isn't in agreement with the Koran is dead wrong and should therefor be corrected. they lie to children and create censorship because they believe that there is no chance that they could be wrong.
*clap...clap...clap...where the heck is karma?

Anyway, as I see it lying is bad...but really, its not that big a deal if your lied to for little things. If you ask someone, "did you eat the last cookie" and they say "nay.", but they did...I don't really care that much. However, if they do something really bad and lie about it (like killing someone) that is terrible.

In the novel, The Kite Runner, one of the characters says that stealing is the ultimate sin. When you lie, you steal someones right to truth.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2007, 11:55:56 am »
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So say if the deaths of 1000 children would stop WW3 from ever happening, and WW3 would kill millions of children, never mind adults.

Surely it would be perfectly logical and therefore reasonable to kill the 1000 children? I look at it that way, logic over morality.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2007, 02:06:23 pm »
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"When is lying okay?"
Lying is okay when it does not compromise your actual beliefs. I'm sure many people would not consider this lying at all, but it's easy to see how it can be. If someone gets a haircut and you think it's good, but not nearly as good as their previous haircut, then telling them that they look better than you've ever seen them is a complete lie and is not OK. Telling them that they look good, plain and simple, without comparison to their old cut is OK, because it doesn't compromise your actual beliefs, even though it might still be considered a lie. Protecting the feelings of others is not an issue to me, because people often place knowing the truth higher than liking what it is they want to know in the first place. And while some would rather hear a lie, I believe that acquiescing them is far from "protective." It can be dangerous for you and them, because it will probably come back and bite you in the ass, directly or indirectly, because every word you say to someone gives them an impression of who you are, and if you're lying, they're getting the wrong one, and there is never a time when doing that doesn't have negative consequences.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2007, 02:56:54 pm »
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Quote from: TheDarkJay on November 03, 2007, 11:55:56 am
So say if the deaths of 1000 children would stop WW3 from ever happening, and WW3 would kill millions of children, never mind adults.

Surely it would be perfectly logical and therefore reasonable to kill the 1000 children? I look at it that way, logic over morality.
No, it's still wrong.  Even logically, it doesn't make sense.  If you believe that "the end justifies the means" then how do you know that killing the 1000 children is truly the "means" to achieve the "end" of saving the millions of people?  For all you know, the death of those millions could be the "means" to an even greater end.  How do you know that the true "end" isn't world peace, which would be brought on by one person who was supposed to live through WWIII, but instead you killed him with the 1000 people in order to prevent WWIII?
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2007, 05:11:01 pm »
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I'm giving a theoretical situation where we assume that it is 100% guaranteed WW3 will happen unless the 1000 children die, and 100% guaranteed that the results of WW3 will be total World Destruction in the resulting nuclear fallout.

And by end I mean all the results of the means grouped together, negative and positive.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2007, 07:55:03 pm »
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You've changed it from millions of children dieing to "total world destruction" (implying everyone dies).  That changes the entire argument, of course it would be better for humans in general (and all life for that matter) if those 1000 children died (since without them dieing then there will be no more humans / life).
But it still isn't better for those children... depending on how long the war lasts (and if they die in the war or after it due to the nuclear fallout) then they could still have a relatively long life (but that probably relates more to the moral side of it).
And my point was that it is impossible to know "that it is 100% guaranteed WW3 will happen unless the 1000 children die, and 100% guaranteed that the results of WW3 will be total World Destruction in the resulting nuclear fallout."
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 08:01:02 pm by dannyjenn »
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2007, 08:00:31 pm »
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Yeah, I changed the last bit. But think about it, the next world war will almost certainly involve nukes, so odds are !@#$% loads of people and generations would be wiped out by the radiation.

Say it was this: A drug dealer is caught repeatedly but because he is so rich managed to buy his way out of the system every time. So many people have suffered because of his actions, and died. He has made children heroine and crack addicts, but gets away with it because he is so rich and powerful, and the typical justice system is practically powerless.

What should happen, should the 'though shall not kill' be followed and he be allowed to cause pain and suffering, or should he be stopped permanently, with a bullet?
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2007, 08:06:53 pm »
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Quote from: TheDarkJay on November 03, 2007, 08:00:31 pm
Yeah, I changed the last bit. But think about it, the next world war will almost certainly involve nukes, so odds are !@#$% loads of people and generations would be wiped out by the radiation.

Say it was this: A drug dealer is caught repeatedly but because he is so rich managed to buy his way out of the system every time. So many people have suffered because of his actions, and died. He has made children heroine and crack addicts, but gets away with it because he is so rich and powerful, and the typical justice system is practically powerless.

What should happen, should the 'though shall not kill' be followed and he be allowed to cause pain and suffering, or should he be stopped permanently, with a bullet?

The third world war is pretty much ready to start. What with Russias suspisious activities over British Airspace. IN PLANES THAT CARRY NUKES!

If this war involves nukes it'll either A) Completely wipe us out or B) Send us back to the stone age. With the amount of nukes everyone has, its leaning towards point A...
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2007, 08:27:42 pm »
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Quote from: TheDarkJay on November 03, 2007, 08:00:31 pm
Say it was this: A drug dealer is caught repeatedly but because he is so rich managed to buy his way out of the system every time. So many people have suffered because of his actions, and died. He has made children heroine and crack addicts, but gets away with it because he is so rich and powerful, and the typical justice system is practically powerless.

What should happen, should the 'though shall not kill' be followed and he be allowed to cause pain and suffering, or should he be stopped permanently, with a bullet?
I can't really give an answer if you ignore the moral side of it.
First off, I believe that if you're a drug addict then it's your own fault.  I'm not saying that they want to be addicted, but for an addiction to start then you need to start taking the drug in the first place.  A drug dealer can provide drugs but he can't make you into a drug addict, you're the one who decides whether to start taking the drug or not.
So basically, the situation is that there's a drug dealer who's actions cause people suffering and death.  He has been arrested many times but the justice system is corrupt and he always gets away with it.
In that situation, if he means is to kill him then there's know way to know the end.  All you know is that the deaths and suffering caused by his actions would stop.  That might not benefit society though, what if he was responsible for killing alot of other drug dealers?  You may have just made the problem worse
Additionally, you are still left with a corrupt justice system that needs to be fixed
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2007, 09:09:39 pm »
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Also I'm a little confused about your interpretation of the "the end justifies the means" idea.  When you said, "I believe selfishness is the primary, I'd go as far as only, motive of humans", does that mean that you should use whatever means in order to acheive the best end for yourself?  Your arguments seem to go the other way though, that you should do whatever means in order to achieve the best ends for society.
I'd like to point out that the latter is fascism... forcing individuals to give up their own rights for the good of society.  And the former is just selfish (not necessarily bad though)
Personally, I don't think any decision can be made properly if you completely ignore the moral side of it.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2007, 09:44:28 pm »
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I mean selfishness is all humans ever strive for, every action a human does is selfish in one way, even if it doesn't seem it. People give to charity to make themselves feel, to use a somewhat heck-and-slashed in term, like gods.

That doesn't justify most people's actions, because in the end they usually have terrible results. As every action is selfish, the end is really all you have to justify them with.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2007, 11:50:30 pm »
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Quote from: sjegtp on October 29, 2007, 10:57:47 pm
Lying is 100% okay. It's up to the hearer if he wants to believe or not in the lie anyway.
You might not be able to tell if a person is lying or not, but you know very well when a person is tending to lie, i.e. when the person has a strong reason to lie (no matter if it's "good" or "bad" though, just "strong"). If what the person is tending to lie about is very important, you'll eventually suspect of the person and try to find out if the person was saying the truth or not. Otherwise you won't care about it, because you know the lie won't have drastic consequences.

Sorry, but that's just plain stupid. People should be able to trust the others, you shouldn't question yourself: "Is he lying? Is it important enough for him to lie?"

In my opinion, lying is 99% wrong. As a Christian, God tells us not to lie, so we shouldn't lie. But, we're all humans and we aren't perfect. There are many scenarios where our hearts tells us we shouldn't lie, and yet we do so because we just don't wanna get grounded or it's a life-threatning situation, in this case, I think it's ok to lie, even though I know I'm wrong.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2007, 01:33:21 am »
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Quote from: Kame on November 03, 2007, 02:06:23 pm
"When is lying okay?"
Lying is okay when it does not compromise your actual beliefs.

THAT is the truth, I believe.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2007, 10:34:29 am »
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You never trust a person. Humans are no honest, they wear masks all the time, whenever they are with someone they have a different mask, hiding what they really think. To trust a person is to trust the mask they wear for you.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2007, 01:43:29 pm »
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Quote from: TheDarkJay on November 04, 2007, 10:34:29 am
You never trust a person. Humans are no honest, they wear masks all the time, whenever they are with someone they have a different mask, hiding what they really think. To trust a person is to trust the mask they wear for you.

ugh is this emo attitude really necessary?

humans are not 100% selfish. if you kill someone or hurt someone in any way then you feel guilty. mostly everyone, in some degree, has to deal with this. this means, that if other people hurt you they will hurt themselves too. this is a good reason to trust at least some people. of course if the stakes get high enough then there will always be a chance that a friend might betray you, but that's besides reasonable chance of prospect.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2007, 01:44:03 pm »
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Quote from: Darunia on November 03, 2007, 11:50:30 pm
In my opinion, lying is 99% wrong. As a Christian, God tells us not to lie, so we shouldn't lie. But, we're all humans and we aren't perfect. There are many scenarios where our hearts tells us we shouldn't lie, and yet we do so because we just don't wanna get grounded or it's a life-threatning situation, in this case, I think it's ok to lie, even though I know I'm wrong.
"God tells us not to lie"...... <_< Well, I'm an atheist, so I read this sentence like "The Church tells us not to lie". The Church manipulated people in the medieval times, so saying that "God tells us not to lie" would help them a lot.

Anyway, we'd better not refer to religion or use religion-related arguments in this topic, since it's against the rules.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2007, 03:17:11 pm »
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Quote from: kirbyy on November 04, 2007, 01:43:29 pm
humans are not 100% selfish. if you kill someone or hurt someone in any way then you feel guilty. mostly everyone, in some degree, has to deal with this. this means, that if other people hurt you they will hurt themselves too. this is a good reason to trust at least some people. of course if the stakes get high enough then there will always be a chance that a friend might betray you, but that's besides reasonable chance of prospect.
I think his point is that there is a selfish motive behind anything that anyone does.  Like how you say "if you kill or hurt someone in any way then you feel guilty", he's pretty much saying that the motive behind not killing is that you don't want to feel guilty (which benefits you so it would be a "selfish" motive).  I don't completely agree with that though.
And I think the whole idea of "You never trust a person. Humans are no honest, they wear masks all the time, whenever they are with someone they have a different mask, hiding what they really think. To trust a person is to trust the mask they wear for you" is way off.  Of course humans act differently in different situations, but no one ever lies 100% of the time to everyone else.  If that was the case then you'd need to be really good at it, otherwise if you're ever with 2 different people at the same time then something you say will most likely contradict something you've said in the past.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2007, 03:21:04 pm »
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Personalities fluctuate like hell, but we all try to live up to a certain one when around people, consciously or not. This is like a mask. To trust a person is to trust the image they want to hold in your eyes.

As for 100% selfish, if everything can be traced back to selfishness (giving to charity to feel like a god), then how is it flawed? It's no worse than Freud saying "All women suffer from Penis envy" and he was hailed as a genius for it (Hell, it's a damn sight less offensive than Freud's sexual theories. Why the hell would someone theorise babies lie in bed dreaming of sex?)! We don't kill for fear of being beaten put in jail, going to hell, whatever, in the end it still comes down to the selfish fear. People who try to relieve guilt (which I would but down as fear of (more or the possibly coming) negative results) do so not for want of making it better, but want of removing the guilt (fear). I call this selfish, because it is all about yourself. Does the selfish basis make it bad? No, because the end justifies the means.

Just because something is depressing, doesn't make it wrong. That is why crappy alternative beliefs are so popular, they are complete !@#$% but make people feel happier. I'm sure heroine would make them happier for a bit as well >_>
« Last Edit: November 04, 2007, 03:30:18 pm by TheDarkJay »
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2007, 05:15:40 pm »
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Why are humans not 100% selfish? Because there are obviously other components to humans than selfishness. Human ethics, possibly, could be considered 100% selfish, but not simply humans.
In any case, I think you are confusing selfishness with human experience. Obviously all experience is only from oneself, nobody experiences being another person (except in some transcendent/chemically altered/etc. states), and so all our ideas are relative to ourselves. When we do something nice, it makes us happy when we see that the other person is happy. So is it selfish to do nice things, because we are really only doing them for ourselves? No, of course not, it's just altruism, and it's a very good thing. True selfishness would be a disability to feel happy because of other people.

And I don't think people always wear masks, either. Obviously, all thought has to be expressed in ways other people can understand, but many people do try their hardest to make those expressions as close to their actual thoughts as possible, and striving to be true is the complete opposite of wearing a mask.
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Re: When is lying okay?
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2007, 05:51:46 pm »
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I could argue that we like seeing other people happy because we expect nice things in return 8)

An eye for an eye goes both ways and all that.
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