Lets please pick up on this section. Dungeon design cannot really go anywhere until the items are finalized. I think we know our obvious weapons/items such as arrows, bombs and boomerang. So lets try and make a few unique ones and figure out which dungeon each will be placed in.
Where are Colby and Sinkin? They're like..the only two guys on the items group.
Interesting...explain a bit? Like, how would they work in a 2D environment?I'll try to draw up an example in a few days but til then, think like the magnetic iron boots in Twilight Princess if you need a quick thought. Of with 2D limitations. It is possible to do. I've done it.
Roc's CapeCombat Items/Useful Items:
Seed Shooter
Magic Mirror
Pegasus boots
Magic beans
Cross
Rings
Rod of Seasons
Rod of Ages
Gust Jar
Cane of Pacci
Hero's Charm
Sand Wand
Iron BootsOther:
Magnetic Gloves
Spinner
Ball and Chain
Bow
Swords
Bombs
Boomerangs
Shields
Hammers
Deku Sticks
Deku Nuts
Slingshot
Hyoi Pear
Switch Hook
We should design the items per usefullness.. for example of your magic Items, I see the Rod of Seasons, Rod of Ages useless, since they just appear in that game and we aren't messing with seasonal changes or time warps. The Cross and Rings feel usefull too (actually I don't know in what game they appear XD I guess Zelda I and OoA/OoS respectively), Spinner might not work for this game.
Then we should see the items depending of the function, the Hookshot, magnetic gloves, and Switch Hook have the same function, moving you from A to B. So no matter which of those three we use it will be nearly the same :). Same applies for the Slingshot and the Bow,
The Hyoi Pear and the Magic Beans can work, mostly the Magic Beans, yet the Hyoi Pear is used to talk to fishes not sure how that will work in this game.
Actually I think we must define first the number of Items we are going to use. And if we are going to add Tunics and boots, and if we actually add them, we must define is they will be considered as Items or if they will have a special screen for the selection ( a la OoT).
Jabber Nut
Jewel of Control
Jewels
Joy Pendant
Junk
Kaleidoscope
Key
Kidnapped Child
King's Key
Kinstone
Knight's Crest
Kokiri Boots
Lantern
Lantern Oil
Large Brass Key
Lava Juice
Lava Soup
Lens of Truth
Library Books
Library Key
Light Arrow
Light Force
Link Doll
Lokomo Sword
Lon Lon Egg
Lon Lon Ketchup
Love Carp
Lumber
Lyre
Mage's Cap
Magic Armor
Magic Arrow
Magic Bean
Magic Book
Magic Cape
Magic Compass
Magic Honey
Magic Jar
Magic Medallions
Magic Mirror
Magic Mushroom
Magic Oar
Magic Powder
Magic Ring
Magic Rod
Magic Rope
Magic Scroll
Magical Boomerang
Magical Clock
Magical Key
Magical Shield
Magnetic Glove
Magnifying Glass
Magnifying Lens
Map
Master Rupee
Master Sword
Master's Plaque
Meat Soup
Medal of Courage
Medli's Harp
Mega Ice
Megaphone
Member's Card
Mermaid Key
Mermaid Suit
Mermaid's Necklace
Mermaid's Scale
Milk
Minced Meat
Mini Death Bug Chrysalis
Mirror Shield
Mirror of Truth
Mirror of Twilight
Mole Mitts
Moon Pearl
Moon's Tear
Mushroom
Mysterious Shell
Mystery Item
Mystical Seeds
Nayru's Love
Nidorian
Noble Sword
Ocarina
Ocarina of Time (Item)
Ocarina of Wind
Odd Mushroom
Odd Potion
Oinker snout
Ooccoo
Ooccoo Jr.
Oracle Charms
Ordon Goat Cheese
Ordon Pumpkin
Ordon Shield
Ore
Oshus's Sword
Overworld Item List
Overworld Magnet
Owl Statue
Pearl Necklace
Pegasus Boots
Pendant of Memories
Pendants of Virtue
Phantom Ganon's Sword
Phantom Hourglass (Item)
Phantom Sphere
Phantom Sword
Phonograph
Photo Album
Picolyte
Pictograph Box
Pictograph box
Piece of Power
Pineapple
Pink Coral
Pirate's Bell
Pirate's Charm
Poacher's Saw
Pocket Cucco
Poe Clock
Poe Soul
Popper Lure
Potion
Potion of Power
Powder Keg
Power Bracelet
Power Glove
Prescription
Prize Postcard
Pumpkin Seed
Pure Metal
Queen Juice
Quiver
Rabbit Net
Raft
Rail Map
Razor Seed
Razor Sword
Recipes
Recorder
Recovery Heart
Recruit's Sword
Red Darknut Arrow
Red Potion
Red Ring
Red Shield
Regal Necklace
Regal Ring
Rib Steak
Ribbon
Ricky's Gloves
Ring Box
Roc's Feather
Rock Brisket
Rock Sirloin
Rod of Seasons
Rupee
Rupee Good
Rupoor
Rusty Bell
Ruto Crown
Ruto's Letter
S.S. Linebeck
Sage Medallion
Sail
Salvage Arm
Sand Wand
Sand of Hours
Scabbard
Scent
Scent Seedling
Sea Ukulele
Secret Notes
Secret Seashell
Seed Satchel
Seed Shooter
Shadow Crystal
Shield
Shield of Antiquity
(http://www.zeldawiki.org/images/thumb/3/32/OoT_Master_Sword.png/482px-OoT_Master_Sword.png)MAIN ITEMS
There should be one unique main item for each dungeon as we know how Zelda works, so 4 of those plus generic zelda items (bomb, arrows, boomerang...). After that, there are the side items, such as magic beans from OoT and rings from OoS/OoA (I'm using these as examples, I'm not suggesting to include them). And then sword and shield upgrades.
I actually hated the spinner, and most items in TP, actually I hated TP, the items were only used inside the dungeon, and most dungeons were really easy like you only had one key at any time during a dungeon, and most dungeons contained a room with two doors, you enter door A and it was locked, so you knew you had to go to door B grab the key and return to door A, all dungeons were the same even WW did something of this but WW is funnier :).Maybe we could redeem the Spinner. I feel that it was underrated in TP. I agree the rest of the items were naff but the Spinner had something new to it.
Anyways, I guess we should follow what 2d games did, mostly OoS/OoA, they had some sweet items and they made it work.
:-[D; perhaps just the light arrow? or all ? not sure really!
I like the bow and arrow. Speaking of witch, what kind of attachments we talking about here? Will there be a special kind of arrow, like the light arrow?
So have we at the least decided on implementing an enhanced version of the spinner (one that can shoot tornados)?
maybe we should have an item order, kinda like what OOT did:
slingshot >> bow & arrow
deku stick >> thief knife >> master sword
it makes since and gives us a lot more to think about(with is good since this a project).
maybe we should have an item order, kinda like what OOT did:
slingshot >> bow & arrow
deku stick >> thief knife >> master sword
it makes since and gives us a lot more to think about(with is good since this a project).
I actually like that idea!
what other items should we have?
perhaps we can give the slingshot in the first dungeon and as a subquest in the desert you get the bow and arrow as a gift? abot the other ones not sure.
I like the optional upgrade idea, but putting the Master Sword in the same category of the Deku Sticks seems a bit odd, especially considering the Deku Sticks have other functionality other than smacking things.
When you say "magic rod", what do you have in mind of it doing? I think since it completes and replaces the lantern, maybe, it should have control over ice and fire.oh I'm mentioning the Magic Rod as in Fire Rod that's the name it appears in LTTP.. weird huh?
Or maybe we could say:
Lantern >> Firerod >> Magic Wand
Good good, that's a good start. I do have to say though, they should be more specific (for example, what direction do the tornados from the spinner go, what are its limitations etc?).:D
Most of these wont fit dungeons in the game, but are just ideas, I'm throwing a BUNCH out there.
But I am still opposed to making them status enhancing, or giving you abilities. Like, how will a gear in my pocket let me climb this cliff, or swim?
Man, really frustrating, I tried to post this three times last night, server wasn't responding... Hopefully it'll work, and the university's Internet will be more cooperative.I've been having this problem as well... seems fine today now, though.
The sheikah gave the power to control statues they constructed, but the way the statues are powered is with dark magic of the sheikah tribe, which the sheikah could not entirely control. My impression of them is that they dabble in dark forces a bit beyond their understanding.I know this is unrelated to the item itself, but does this mean that there will be a rather "corrupt", or "dark" sheikah featured as a villain?
As a result of this dark magic, when the power is used on things other then the statues, it inflicts the target with terrifying illusions of wraiths. These hallucinations daze the target and perhaps paralyze them. Perhaps they are slowly poisoned by the stress on their minds, even. But these results are just a side effect of the main purpose of the cog's magic, which is to power the ancient sheikah statues, which do various things. Such as protecting the Celestial Clock.
Shadow Cog: An Elegy of Emptiness type effect: Links "Soul" is manifested into a statue, ala MM, that mirrors his movements. At any time, the Real Link and the Statue Link can "Switch Places", so if you sneak your guy past a guard who detects living things, and then switch, you're safe. Anywho, this ability can be used on Statues, allowing you to have a mirror Statue, who copies your movements. I dunno.That's a good idea, in regards to the Elegy of Emptiness-type effect. I had an idea which could expand the light/dark effects based on your area. Take for example, the Shadow Cog. Perhaps it can be given different or extended functionality in the boss room. I'm going to actually just introduce several examples rather than define a specific example as I think this aspect could be defined once we have an idea of when this idea would be used and for what bosses. (i.e. Add "shadow" effect to attacks that could allow Link to deflect certain projectiles with his sword)
Back to items though!I mean like, let's say Link's Master Sword in Zelda 1 could only shoot flying swords if Link were in the boss room? (Though, there would have to be RELEVANCE to the idea... I'm not supposing we just randomly add extra abilities to the items for no real reason when you get into the boss room... i.e. Steam Cog at the Water Temple resonates with the boss activating something?) I was just suggesting this because I feel it let's us be a little more creative about our design. Like, I feel we could have the design of our dungeons go hand in hand with the bosses and items you get from the temples, if that makes sense.
To address these in the order they were brought up, basically, Stig, what do you mean about items having additional abilities in boss rooms?
I feel like you could look at that two ways, like, you could mean that, say, the magnetic gloves in the boss room can repel the projectiles the boss shoots at you, because they're magnetically charged. Or you could be meaning that using the magnetic gloves in the boss room allows you to shoot fire from your sword. The difference, although the second example is a bit extreme for emphasis, is that the first way is the item doing the same thing it always does, the same way as always, but due to particular things in the boss room, it has a new effect.Looks like you were thinking along the same lines as I was!
The second way is the item doing things it's never done, or doing things in a way it's never done, which is confusing for the player. I'm all in support of the first way, but that won't be addressed until we do enemies, presuming we're doing bosses. Which I think we'll probably wait on until the levels team defines the dungeons a bit more, so we'll have a theme, sort of. Of course, the boss might define the theme, so maybe we won't work entirely independently.Yeah, I think just randomly throwing the extra abilities in there is unnecessary and will do more harm than good.
BUT, what item would this be tied to, the shadow cog? If so, that would have to replace the statues application, and honestly, if we've got mirror images an involved as moving and potentially attacking, that's more of a whole item unto itself. It seems a bit much to assign to one cog. Perhaps this mirror thing could be involved with the shadow cloak? This could reconcile a lot of ideas about these items:This would create INSANE puzzles, actually. Imagine having the elegy of emptiness allow you to assign an item to a dummy. Ah, well, I'm getting ahead of myself here...
Putting on the shadow cloak makes you invisible to some enemies, and makes illusions' truth more apparent (ie, fake doors will take on a slightly different color, there will be a haze where an invisible object is like a platform or chest, etc), but attracts sheikah wraiths, as you're in their realm.I was just gonna say, this is similar to the wolf senses in Twilight Princess.
When you hold down the button, you create an illusory, mirrored copy of yourself to sort of replace you. The mirror moves as an inverse to your movements, and when you attack, it does to. It probably won't be able to use any of your other items , though. The mirror copy can be used to solve puzzles like holding down switches and hitting multiple things at once.Well, this shoots down my initial idea or unless there would be a way to somehow have the copy have an item assigned to it.
This seems to reconcile a few different ideas, but would probably need to be tested. If this doesn't seem to work out, I'm also quite down with the idea of using the cane of brynna/samaria/whatever. I just re-bought LTTP (my sisters apparently sold my old copy), but I'm not that far yet, just beat the eastern palace and the armos knights. By the way, studying dungeons from different games is a must when you're making your own. Just studying one game isn't NEARLY as helpful.I recommend you check out http://bszelda.zeldalegends.net/sekibanfiles.shtml and run it in bsnes or snes9x, if you can (alternatively, you could scroll down to the youtube videos and watch how the games were originally played as there's missing data still that's being recovered... tl;dr on the reason why just ask in a PM if you want to know details). This is an extension of ALTTP, but with a different story + different dungeon styles somewhat. I totally agree with this, though. It's best just to study the different approaches Nintendo had than to focus in on one thing.
For the water cog, YES, NYRU'S LOVE type item! Haha, defense never occurred to me, but that's actually a great idea. When you use the water or steam cog, you surround yourself with a spinning veil of water or steam that deflects attacks while your magic holds out, using it in water creates a whirlpool which can defend you from enemies and negate other whirlpools.+1 here, too... This reminds me of Katara's abilities from Avatar: The Last Airbender. That being said, I also think the water cog should be able to manipulate the temperature of water. i.e. cold(freezing water)/hot(forming steam or melting water). But how to decide which happens when? I think the state of the water should decide that. If it's not frozen, freeze it. If it's frozen, melt it. To form steam, perhaps make it an action command?
Do whirlpools only spin a particularly way in life, like Clockwise in the southern hemisphere or something? The water cog would spin the other way, and negate them.
Also, I said water/steam, because steam could still work. You surround yourself with a spinning cloud of steam, and it protects you. You could, in water, perhaps evaporate the whirlpools? Or perhaps cause a ranged thing, where you sort of boiled the water in front of you, and it was a ranged attack you could use in water? You'd shoot a wave of boiling water, which could hit enemies, and start waterwheels. And then when you used the defensive veil on land in the proper places, the steam could be directed into some kind of pipe or something and operate a steam-powered machine.Maybe this approach would be better than taking my approach. I was thinking broad on the idea(perhaps too broad). I'm in favor of the defensive approach and actually... come to think of it, going the steam approach would definitely fit the steampunk theme of the project better. (It comes off as steampunk to me, at least)
Of course, what I'm mostly in favor of is the Nyru's Love type item. The defensive aspect. The other ideas are just ideas.
Also, an idea I have for the last few items is this, after a little more discussion of the steam/water cog, we should have two basic options, one of either steam or water offensively, the other defensively with perhaps some other applications. We'll pick the better option, do a writeup, and then ratify it. How does a ratification system for the rest of the items sound? Now that we've got four of us on the team, it'll be a bit harder to come to conclusions. Not too much harder, though, because it's still pretty small.I have no objections for a ratifying system. Just as long as we can continue processing input and worrying less about political squabbles, I'm all for it!
Alright guys, you heard the man, let's keep it up. I'm just gonna put this up now, so if anybody looks in over thanksgiving weekend. Any more comments on the listed items will be taken into account for the next few days, but after next week gets into full swing, they're gonna be finalised. Dark-Hylian, the bow. Yes. 8 Ways. That is definitely the way to go. I'll get back to the bow later in this post, I want to get these last two down, so we're gonna vote yea and nea on the different aspects of the steam cog and shadow cloak. Also, let me know if I've forgotten any aspects that seemed reasonable.8 directional arrows +1. Make this apply to any other long-ranged object as well. Hookshot, boomerang, etc. in my opinion. Otherwise you're going to have inconsistencies with the overall item design.
Steam CogI'll fetch my ideas here for you, too:
-Defensive Steam Veil
-Powers up steam technology
-Boosts you in water
-Damages enemies you hit in water
Or
-Water based, surf like attack
-Hits enemies on land with wave, Pushes back
-Floods some things to solve puzzles
-Boosts you (surfin' Link) in water
OR
-creates whirlpool in water, drawing enemies in, disables other whirlpools.
I think that's all we had for this cog that didn't step on the toes of the fire and ice arrows.
Shadow CloakThis follows the same design as how Nintendo had it in ALTTP.
-Turns You Invisible to enemies
And/orNow this goes into the Lens of Truth-esque functionality. Don't really know about this one...
-Makes Enemies hard to see, but reveals the nature of illusions &invisible objects
And OrNow, I have a suggestion. How about having a way to give the shadow cloak idea #1 and this idea? Certain conditions can allow you to position a dummy Link. i.e. elegy of emptiness is played with ocarina while wearing shadow cloak?
-Creates a mirror Link that can attack and solve puzzles.
Again, of I've forgotten any reasonable aspects, let me know. I think we've discussed these things long enough that now we've all got opinions, so let's once and for all get em down.Let's do both. If the key is only pressed, just have Link fire the bow in the direction he was facing. If the key is held down, keep Link in position but make the directional buttons change which direction he's facing rather than moving him. Once the key is released, fire arrows.
Now, about the bow, yeah, eight ways is perfect. How are we going to do the in between directions, though? Link kinda needs to be able to hold the bow ready and still move to make use of the fire/ice arrows, if we switch WW style with the R button. Or does he? Perhaps Link can't move while holding the bow ready, but can spin and charge arrows with fire and ice. There would also be a cancel button.
Writeup:Read my idea above, I think switching modes like that would be too tedious in the heat of battle. Though we can test this theory by developing a quick prototyping solution to be certain ^^. I think this aspect should just be noted down until we can get a prototype up and running.
Pressing the button puts you in aiming mode. You can spin eight directions, and switch between fire, ice, and regular. There is a cancel button to return to normal mode, and pressing the button again fires the arrow.
How does that sound? I don't mind if we debate some specifics of how the controls relate to items for a while, because we've definitely decided on what the item does, at least.
But the main thing is the shadow cloak and steam cog!The Shadow Cog is especially interesting given its "weird" nature. It's weird to me at least.
The secondary thing is the bow!
Stig (you name was already short enough, haha), haha, I usually re-read posts a number of times as I'm responding, but I end up re-reading what I've already said to myself because of your quotes, haha. You mentioned that if anything about your posting style was inconvenient or anything in the past to let you know, so I don't mean any offence, but do you read all the way through previous posts before responding? I feel like you quote something, respond to it, and then after quoting the next thing, you change what you said in your first quote. It's not a big deal, I was just wondering.That's probably because I was responding to the post as I was breaking them down in quotes and then moving onto the next posts. Some decisions I wasn't sure on, so I just figured it would be better to do that incase if I miss something. Sorry if that's causing confusion. Though I do re-read my posts just to make sure they make sense. I also just mind-dump in my post which I probably shouldn't do since it just introduces me coming up with an idea then disagreeing with myself later..
So, first off, to both of you... You kind of neglected to make any decisions either way about the cog and cloak.I did have a response but it seems you're not looking for changing the ideas any further:
Now, I have a suggestion. How about having a way to give the shadow cloak idea #1 and this idea? Certain conditions can allow you to position a dummy Link. i.e. elegy of emptiness is played with ocarina while wearing shadow cloak?
I like invisibility and illusions. I think the mirror clone is cool, but might not work well, the others seem like they'd work fine.I think mirror clone "could" work just because of how well the clones worked in Majora's Mask for Stone Tower Temple. But hey, I'm going to reiterate what I mentioned earlier in this post: the cloak works fine as an invisibility cloak and if we wanted to bring in clones into the puzzle formula, then the Elegy of Emptiness would be a good way to go about that. It's as simple as that.
But again, which do you guys think? I think I'm gonna go ahead and set a deadline of Monday evening after ten, we're gonna go with whatever seems most in favor of at that point. If this seems too sudden/soon, say so. Its totally reasonable that that might be too soon, I just think we're close enough that it isn't.My situation should be sorted by then.
Finally, the bow. Stig, yeah, your idea seems to work a lot better than what I said. But like DH said, and WW proved, having another button assigned to switch types of arrows works fine, too.You know what, you and DH are very right, WW did have multiple button assignments for weapons. I like the sound of the bolded part of this quote. It seems like it's going to be quite an awesome idea. xD
I mean, if we test it and it doesnt work, then that's okay, we'll take it away, but I'm pretty sure it'll work. Holding the button puts an arrow in the bow, you can then turn 8 ways. Pressing r or whatever changes types. Releasing the button fires. This way you can aim and also fire rapidly. And it's still simple.
Also, the same method could be applied to all ranged objects easily, yeah. Hold boomerang, face direction, release to throw. Hold Hookshot button, aim, release to shoot. The bombs cannon presents a little problem, as how long you hold determines charging and distance, doesn't it? Perhaps you could hold the button to face a direction, and hold R to charge?Just a thought, perhaps the direction should be determined by which direction Link is simply facing; have a button for going into an "aiming mode"(or maybe Link _can_ change direction in this mode too?). What you had for charge seemed fine, actually. :)
Anyway, remember, let's decide on the shadow cloak and water (/stone) cogs first. Everything else is just details.Just to be clear: in regards to the shadow cloak, I am for the invisibility idea. For the Water Cog, I like the description if it were an offensive cog. But you know, scratch my opinion here because from what you're saying, the Water Cog and Stone Cog directly influence each other(i.e. one is offense, other defense).
Thanks for the ultra prompt reply, Stig, haha.Yeah, I apologize me having a hard time following things. When I am put up to vote in a design decision, I like to be sure I know what's going on first! ^^
So yeah, this topic, and it's parameters and purpose... Haha, it's been through a lot. This started out as just brainstorming random ideas, then died, then revived as deciding for sure which items to include, by way of throwing out ideas, then honing them. So yeah, there's a lot of random ideas, then after those, there should be a refined decision on an item. A couple times, the items, as finalised, have been stated all together.
So, the shadow cloak, Stig votes invisibility! I've got it now.You're right, part of my reasoning was behind the functionality being covered by other items(I had assumed we were using them.. especially Elegy of Emptiness due to its mention a few times in this thread).. though the main one was the idea behind the item name actually. "Shadow Cloak", might as well make it ironic and make the player invisible. :P However, I'm not quite sure about adding in the other items. ....My thoughts are, we can cross that bridge if we must, but right now there are other important things going on. My decisions still stand. It would be cool if we could work in another ability into the Shadow Cloak; more or less the clone ability since that could be useful for puzzles. But hey, again, that might complicate things. To avoid complicating things, I'm fine with things as is. The ability works, makes sense, and is still useful for puzzles.
I will say, though, that your reasoning is that the other options are covered by other items... Which we don't plan on using... Right? I mean, that is your reasoning, right? I mean, I'm not the item king, we could work in the elegy and lens, it's just that we were basically decided on a number of items, and then we decided which there were, so it doesn't really seem like there's room for any more. What I mean to say is that I don't feel as if adding in additional items, such as the lens or elegy of emptiness, would be best, so I'd rather make their abilities, if we decide to use them at all, avaliable through the shadow cloak, rather than through seperate items.
The water cog and stone cog confusion that suddenly popped up is a result of me coming up with ideas that were kinda dumb to begin with, then saying, okay, those are done.Yeah, I've seen Stone being for damage and water being for defensive... but that's not the reasoning behind the dispute. What does the Stone Cog do, really? There's an outline of the Water Cog based on multiple scenarios (whether it's defensive or not, plus one additional concept where it's a "Steam" Cog), which you were asking what I agreed with. Certainly, I can agree with one of those designs. But as for the stone cog, I can agree whether it's defensive or not... but what would that imply for the cog? But yeah, it seems how I was interpreting what you were asking for was completely different. And for that, I apologize.
We previously had the stone cog doing damage, and the water cog being defensive, when it would make more sense to do it opposite. DH pointed this out, and I was like, oh, hey... So that's why it's up for dispute. If I've made any silly oversights like this anywhere else, please say so.
So, secondary things, all the projectile items, boomerang, bow, Hookshot, you couldn't move while firing them in other games anyway. So it's okay if you can't move while firing it in KoT either, I think. So holding the button, to face a direction more easily, seems like a good idea. Because I remember in ALTTP, it was really difficult to fire something diagonally, because I feel like you never faced that way naturally. Having a button to hold that allows you to turn, but not move, seems helpful to me.You're right, I remember this being a pain in the butt if you were playing with the original SNES gamepad. You could fire diagonally, but it was a bit annoying in doing so! Also, this was why I suggested an "aiming mode" for this reason. It would disable your movement completely in exchange for being able to aim. So, it would be like using the Bomb Cannon on the boat in Wind Waker, I guess? The only issue I could see with this is that the bomb cannon will now be clunky. But see, this is the only way I can currently think of to avoid the problem you pointed out.
The reason I'm thinking it'd be better to not connect the button that lets you turn to the button that charges the bomb cannon is this: suppose you need to shoot the cannon a shot way, diagonally. You hold the button, but accidentally turn too far, or whatever, it takes a ill bit to line yourself up just right. By the time you've faced the precise direction, the cannon cas charged more then necessary, and you overshoot your target!
Also, we might still want to consider if 8 way projectiles are best, of if it should be limited to 4 way for a reason. I mean, OOX, and perhaps MC (can't remember), did not use 8 way aiming, so maybe they left it out for a reason. I do think that it would allow for better puzzles and be helpful in fights, though. So I mean, I'm still in favor of it, just thought I would check.It could have been a technicality as to why they left it out, but who knows... it would probably be better to just leave the 8 projectiles idea in there for now, but leave a reminder note that we should probably test that aspect to really "finalize" that. Or unless that method is unacceptable and you need an answer now. If that's the case, then I'll just say that like you, I feel the 8 projectiles should be fine. So in other words, I'm in favor for it!
Also, one of the reasons there's a little confusion about this stuff is that things like if Link can walk in 8 directions and how many buttons we'll have and what they'll do, that's all still technically undecided. That's because we, as the game design team, haven't started on that yet, because the game design team only sort of started through this topic, so we're doing this first... But yeah.
Alright!You know, this is much like the Minish Cap approach with the Four Swords. But getting to how invisibility could be used for puzzles, I was thinking of the Magic Cape from ALTTP where you can walk over spikes without getting harmed. For some reason, that slipped my mind at the time of writing my previous post. This actually would go along with the idea you have since Link would essentially be in a "spirit" form then. Thinking about it now, you would have two different methods of solving puzzles here which could all be combined: shell to step/hold down a switch and invisibility to bypass harmful spikes. I've been trying to think of a way for a third method where the mirror could be made useful if it maintained the main items Link has equipped (i.e. the Backlash Shield), but I honestly can only come up with one thing so far and that's requiring Link to travel across to another part of the map while waiting for his mirror to get hit with a projectile. That would make for a tedious puzzle, though. I just thought I would bring up that idea just to see what you would think. :P
So yeah, the elegy of emptiness was just brought up as an illustration for one of the shadow cloak's potential abilities, haha. Not as its own thing. Reasonable confusion, you're fine. Other than that, I think I'll break this post down by item.
Shadow Cloak, as it's probably the most important to figure out right now.
I agree that invisibility is a good quality. Let's figure out, however, how this will work in application. Like, so enemies won't see Link. What will this do for puzzles? What will this door for combat? Personally, I don't see how being invisible, and just that, could solve any puzzles, unless the puzzle was sneaking around, in which case with the cloak, it wouldn't really be a puzzle at all... Also, it would affect fighting for sure, but it seems like it would totally kill fighting (awkward pun-like statement...) because you'd just slaughter enemies.
What if we did combine the elegy of emptiness with the cloak, without the mirrored aspect, because that part seems the most complicated, potentially troublesome, and of dubious application. Basically, you'd put on the cloak and leave a shell of yourself behind, you could travel invisibly this way (perhaps it be your spirit traveling or something), and when you took it off, the shell you left would evaporate and you'd be regular again. Of course, using the cloak would consume a little magic power. The way you'd keep from using this to just slaughter enemies is one of two ways:
You couldn't use your sword while wearing the cloak.
It'd consume lots of magic to use the sword while wearing the cloak.
The enemies would be attracted to the shell you left, so you couldn't fight them cause they wouldn't be where you are, they'd be by the shell.
Stone and water cogs seem pretty decided then, stone is defence, water is offence.You're quite correct, it doesn't seem like there's anybody against that between me, you, and DH(afaik). You know, about that stone idea, it would be interesting to throw stones down a level and then use the water cog to flood the lower level which allows you to create a bridge(I believe the flooding idea was mentioned in an earlier post, as well). It would be cool if you could ride a rail with the stone cog(Link would be surrounded by a stone shield at this point) and this would allow Link to break through a wall... Ah maybe I'm getting too ahead of myself here -- ahahahaha. I apologize.
Stone cog-
Using this would pull stones out of the ground to create a shield around you for as long as you held the button down. It consumes magic, but you can still move while using the shield. Perhaps using the shield in certain places would drag stones from wall or something into your shield, creating a path that was previously blocked.
Water Cog
Using the water cog blasts water in the four directions around you, damaging enemies it hits. It uses magic. This attack could be used to power some waterwheels.
I think that's what we said, approximately, about the water cog, right?
Also, how do you feel about the specifics of that for stone?
Aiming seems decided then? Hold the button to aim, release to fire. With the bow, press r to switch between arrows, with the cannon press r to charge the shot?The only thing that concerned me was whether or not it would be "too" clunky. But you know what, the Cannon was clunky in Wind Waker, yet it worked good. So yeah, that's something I didn't consider. ^^ I +1 this idea for aiming.
I can see how this might make the cannon clunky, which is good. It's a steampunk hand cannon that shoots bombs, it better be clunky.
Finally, to answer the question you asked in the thread about dungeons, because it's an item question, I am SO in favor of a logbook item. I brought this up ages ago, before this topic was really where it is now, that I wanted one to keep track of when you come someplace you can't access yet, what type of puzzle it is. Like, when you come to a broken bridge you'd need the Hookshot to cross, later you get the Hookshot, and you think to yourself, where the hell was that bridge? I'd like the logbook to keep track of that, too.Yes!!! I like that extension of the logbook idea you have there. It goes beyond just covering character development, but rather, retaining "hints" to different puzzles which would prove very helpful to the player (assuming the logbook would track such locations through hints and plotted locations on the map).
Okay, totally agreed about the shadow cloak. I mean, the only thing is, couldn't the shell just be used to hold down a switch... That lowered the spikes? Haha, nah, I support going through stuff.My music player is currently hitting up the NES section of my library... oh, right.
What I might add is that I'd like it if the things you could go through were actually illusions, and when you put of the cloak they appeared a slightly different color, or the rest of the world darkened a little, indicating that they were illusory and you could now pass through them. When not wearing the cloak, however, the illusions would be so convincing that you felt pain from them anyway, taking damage.
However, there are two ways to approach the passing through of spikes, illusions, etc:
You could always pass through them with the shadow cloak, as they're illusions.
You could only pass through them when you've left a shell on the other side, as the shell is what would take the damage, removing your consciousness from your body allows you to dissociate the pain from going through the spikes.
Or, and my favourite, a combination. You could pass through illusions anytime you have the cloak on. However, some things, like spikes, you could pass through only when you've left your shell on the other side. I think this would allow for the best puzzles. Thoughts?
Also, I'd like your opinion on the usage of the sword while wearing the cloak. In the meantime, partial Writeup?
Shadow Cloak
Pressing the assigned button toggles on/off the cloak. Holding the button for a little while youre wearing it creates a shell of yourself that is left behind in the spot you created it. The shell dissipates when you press the action button at it, or if you remove the cloak. The shell can be used to hold down switches, and perhaps other things. (Other things to be decided as puzzles are created. I.E., the levels people could decide that the shell can create a shadow, deactivating a light activated switch, or something along those lines.)
I'll leave the rest for when we decide on what you can pass and sword usage.
Also, let's decide on magic consumption, does it always consume magic while worn, or just while you do actions? One final question on the cloak, is can the shell be destroyed? If so, how so? My opinions are it can't be destroyed by enemies, I don't even know if they'd attack it, but it can be destroyed by specific things, like a really strong light. It is a shadow created shell, light should be able to destroy it.
So, to sum up (I like when you do this, I will too) questions remaining on shadow cloak:
What can you pass through, and when?
Sword usage while wearing the cloak?
Magic consumption?
Destruction of shell?
*also, I think the mirror concept is good, but we can accomplish those puzzles with the statues. Certain statues can move in a mirror pattern when you use the shadow cog on them.Touche. Again, I'd like to point out that I like how you're always looking at things in another perspective which is really awesome. But anyways it is like you've said, there are different ways the mirror concept could be used. I was just pointing out an application just to back up the idea.
Alright, cogs. Let's remember, we don't want to assign TOO much to each cog. Which is why I thing we should keep each one's functions, outside of the battle applications of fighting and defending, limited to removing rocks into your shield, and working waterwheels. Perhaps putting out fires?Very true, I'll give you that. :P I guess I just got carried away. Also, I was thinking of the flooding being useful for areas that have small sources of water, but again... this would make the application of the feature obscure which I believe was a problem mentioned earlier in this thread that Twilight Princess suffered. Items obtained were somewhat alienated after they were used in dungeons because of their specific application, which somewhat hurt the game when you look at the big picture. Although the alternative approach you have is an equally good. (infact, I have an idea regarding illusions and some other whacky stuff, but you know.. that can be saved for the level design guys. That's their job after all xD)
You have great ideas, such as flooding an area, or building a bridge, but those seem too specific to assign as an ability of the cog.
Example, flooding. Yes, this will make awesome puzzles. However, when you aren't in a flood puzzle situation, what then? How will we make it so every map won't be flooded? I think that when we flood maps for puzzles, we should do it just by having Link break a dam or hitting a switch in the water temple, something more specific to the particular puzzle.
Or breaking through a wall, Link could just ride a mine cart through it or something. Because this is too specific and broad to be applied to an item Link can always use.
You're totally right on with removing a slab to reveal an eye switch, though. Thats just a kick ass idea, the levels people better read this! Haha.
For example of what I'm talking about, let's take the idea of flooding and bridging.
So Link has a two level room he needs to go through, on higher level and one lower level. There's a dam that initially keeps the water at the higher level, and creates a dry ditch in the lower level. There is a bridge that floats that he can use to cross the ditch, but it's at the bottom, so he uses the stone cog, or maybe fire arrows, bomb cannon, whatever, to destroy the dam supports, which collapse and flood the ditch. Link crosses over the floating bridge to advance! However, the water level higher up is lower, and is no longer powering a water wheel that was powering a door. Link will have to use the water cog to blast the water wheel to get through the door.
Does that illustrate what I'm trying to say?
Finally, aiming, check! Logbook, check!+1 and +1. :)
You aren't confusing, check! If I use words that are too obscure, stop ME!
End confusion!
Also, where the heck is Dark Hylian?Poor Guy... xD I'm looking through this thread and thinking "oh man, he's gonna be like how I was when I decided to get more involved". Yeah, I only have like three assignments left for this semester before finals, so I have plenty of freetime. :)
Or is this one of those instances where I think it's been forever, but he checked in yesterday? (Edit: oh, yup... It was...) you gotta move fast to keep up with Max and Stig! Haha.
Oh man, I should really get back to my homework...
So, to sum up (I like when you do this, I will too) questions remaining on shadow cloak:Than that I shall do! I apologize for not doing that in the last post, I was simply tired. hahaha Bad excuse.
Yup, me too with college, just one more essay and an exam to study for.Oh, I apologize. I mixed up "mirror mode" with activating the "shell"(or clone, if you will). >_<
Alright, so I think we've got the cloak and cogs down, we'll just need DH to approve. Which I'm excited for, he usually puts in great ideas.
I'm a little confused when you refer to "mirror" things in relation to the shadow cloak now. What do you mean? Like I said, I think the mirror aspect should be reserved for statues. So I feel like that's not what you're talking about.
So, just double checking, what I believe you're saying is that when you're wearing the shadow cloak, you can pass/perhaps interact with illusions? For instance, you put the shadow cloak on, and certain spikes in a large area of spikes will perhaps turn a slightly different color than the others and wavers little sor something. Those spikes, you will think to yourself, are illusions, and with the cloak on, you can walk through them without getting hurt.Correct. :) Also, that might be a non-issue since we may not be using the Lens of Truth in this game(there's been no indication as of yet).. I just brought it up just to be careful in case if there were plans on bringing back the Lens of Truth.
Also, how do you feel about the cloak also allowing previously invisible things to be seen? I know you said it was intruding into the lens of truth area, but I think it goes along with the illusions thing.
Also, about light, I meant both literal and... Metaphorical? Whatever you'd classify the light arrows under, yes. I'd propose a light-type enemy, perhaps, kinda specifically for puzzles involving the shell. Like those dark type turn to stone chu chus were specifically for some puzzles in WW.I meant literal as in, actual sunlight. :P You seemed to have gotten it, though, as you mentioned that the shell can be destroyed by both either literal sunlight or light-based objects(i.e. light arrows). Staflos(I think they're called?) could fall into this area too since they function similarly to the stone chu chus. I can't help but think of the enemies from the Temple of the Gods in Wind Waker when you bring this up...
Well, here's where I think we are:Sheikah Temple -- So that means this item isn't of Gerudo descent, huh? Or are you meaning to imply that the Sheikah simply stole this artifact from the Gerudo? I hadn't found anything in the design topics regarding this, so I apologize for my ignorance here. I'll wait for your response to decide if I +1 this or not ;p
Shadow Cloak
Found in the Sheikah Temple
Pressing the assigned button toggles on/off the cloak. Holding the button for a little while youre wearing it creates a shell of yourself that is left behind in the spot you created it. The shell dissipates when you press the action button at it, or if you remove the cloak. The shell can be used to hold down switches, and perhaps other uses, to be decided as puzzles are created. The shell can be destroyed when exposed to direct beams of light, from the sun or light type attacks.
While wearing the cloak, illusions become obvious. Spikes or blocks that aren't real will have some kind of visual effect, and will be passable while the shadow cloak is worn. Some invisible paths will become visible as well.
Wearing the shadow cloak drain your magic.
Think that's good?
Be right back with writeups for all the cogs, so double check with you guys.
While wearing the cloak, illusions become obvious. Spikes or blocks that aren't real will have some kind of visual effect, and will be passable while the shadow cloak is worn. Some invisible paths will become visible as well.
Wearing the shadow cloak drain your magic.
DH!@Shadow Cloak: It seems good.
You still haven't said if you approve of me calling you that for short yet! Haha. Nice to see you again, though, yeah, I understand about exams, we're all there.
What you're saying about the cloak is exactly what we're going for, I think. What you quoted was the wording of the most recent and official writeup of the cloak, that's the wording I have in the final document. So it's that exactly, plus the Shadow Shell clone elegy of emptiness thing. I think they'll work well together.
As for the bow, we are currently thinking 8 way firing. However, I'll definitely bring your opinion about 4 way up to MG and the gang, and get their take on it. I also thought a little about that, that they might have just left the aiming 4 way for a reason, but I wasn't really sure how it'd work out, so I think that what it might be, is that unless the programmers take issue, we might initially set them up 8 way, then if it doesn't work out too well, change it back to four way.
Also yeah, light arrows, nope.
The water cog is definitely the hardest to work with because honestly, water is just a wierd thing to use in fights. I mean, I could go and suggest something like it could be used for healing or something, but unless it becomes an issue, it might be getting a bit late to change that.
SO, folks!I just feel that 8-directional firing was never enabled in a 2D Zelda due to technicalities with the console. Thinking about it, the only 2D Zelda written for a game console that's not restricted would be Four Sword Adventures, and that had all kinds of whacky ways of attacking. Though they didn't add in 8 directional firing in that case maybe to keep things consistent? Who knows. This seems like one of those types of problems that only testing can solve.
I think I'm gonna go ahead and contact MG, submit the google doc to him (DH, I sent a PM about google docs, that's how I have the items stored.). I'll bring up your concern about 4/8 way aiming, DH. And also, if anybody else feels like the water cog seems a bit... off, then we can still change it, I don't think it'll be too late or anything. So as far as I know, this thread will stay open for suggestions about these items we've just finished.
BUT,+1 Seems fair enough so far. One thing, I'm guessing their rarity when destroying other objects(i.e. bushes, jugs, etc) depends on how much health you have?
We aren't done with ALL the items yet. What we've still go left, I think, is pickup items (hearts, arrows, etc), equipment (swords, shields, etc), and then some miscellaneous items like the logbook. There will also be at least one trading quest, but, I don't think that will be decided in this thread, honestly it's not set up to take care of that very well. Some story related items will occur too, like keys to dungeons, letters to plot devices, etc. haha. I think those will also be developed elsewhere.
SO... Here's a list of pickup items.
Main thing with this, approve what you like, bring up concerns and any items I may have missed.
Randomly found items, edited from an old post:
Note that these items are found only once they're applicable to the hero, i.e., you don't find arrows before you have a bow. Also note that in rooms in dungeons that require a refillable item, such as ammo or magic, that particular item can be found in jars/pots in that room.
Hearts
Pick up a heart to replenish one heart of health.
Their rarity will depend on how difficult the enemies are, to balance it.
Rupees+1 Simple enough. Glad you noted what happens to the higher amounts otherwise I woulda said something. xD
Increments found randomly: 1, 5, and 20. Randomly finding a 20 is extremely rare, and those and increments higher than that are reserved for rewards.
Magic Jars+1 I can't think of anything more that can be said about this.
Small green bottles that replenish an increment of your magic meter. Small jars replenish like an eighth, maybe a quarter, big magic jars replenish it all.
Rarity would depend on how many items use magic, and how necessary they are, but fairly uncommon.
Rooms with puzzles requiring magic would have pot that definitely have magic jars in them.
Bombs+1 I'm assuming this is just normal bombs, right? We're not having any other types of bombs? (i.e. The giant orange bomb from ALTTP or the powder keg from Majora's Mask)
Found once you have the bomb cannon. Uncommon. Explode things, used in the cannon, etc... One bomb icon on the map replenishes 5 bombs.
Arrows+1 I'm for 8 directional firing until we can get a test bed setup to further investigate how the ranged weapons could work.
Found once you have the bow, can be used to shoot targets from afar. Picking up one bundle of arrows icon refills 5 arrows in your quiver.
Once you obtain the fire and ice arrows, you can use a regular arrow and fire it as a fire arrow, or ice arrow. Each fire arrow would use up one arrow and a small amount of magic, same with ice arrows.
Secret Seashells+1 Definitely! This reminds me of the red orb idea from Illusion of Gaia. If you collect a certain amount, you're taken to a top secret dungeon where you fight the last boss of Enix's previous game before Illusion of Gaia, who also makes a brief mention of that game's protagonist. Getting back on topic, this definitely could be a nice way to give the player upgrades. I already have some in my head like an upgrade to give you the throwing sword ability like in Zelda 1. I could see some of the upgrades just being throwbacks or references to older Zelda games, stuff that aren't part of the games initial design.
Found quite rarely, and sometimes as puzzle rewards. They are saved up for no apparent purpose until you find that they can be traded to upgrade some equipment in a secret out of the way seashell mansion type place. They should DEFINITELY not be used for some type of wagering game, though, because that was obnoxious. LA had it right with finding only 20 in the whole game, and getting a better sword, in my opinion.
SO, let's gather some opinions on these, especially the secret seashells were just an idea I had.Naw, I wouldn't mind it if you attacked me if it was constructive. I agree that this is supposed to be a team effort and the only way to get the best quality is to get multiple viewpoints here. After all, we're a community project, not an Apple product.
What I'm thinking is that we'll do these really quick, and then start brainstorming equipment (sword and shield, etc). I at least want to wait a while, for everybody's finals to be over, to get really into deciding for sure. I don't want only some people to do input, like the end of these items, where it was almost just Stig and I. Not to diss Stig's help, if it came off that way, because he's been awesome, I just wish everybody could be that often, haha. I understand that's not realistic, though.
Speaking of which, did everybody get my PM about meetings? I'll send another, I guess.I'm finally un-busy again, so I'm free again. However I don't recall if there were times every established and how we were gonna talk?
I was just trying to figure out why the Sheikah temple, that's all. I was under the impression that it would have some relation to the Gerudo's(like finding it there). But yeah, I'll just follow what you said and assume it was created by the Sheikah.
Shadow Cloak! Gerunds descent, no, I don't think so? Why would it be/why does it matter? I mean, if you can think of a good reason that is is a gerudo item, then sure. If not, I assume it'd be created by the Sheikah.
Kren, you're welcome to pop some ideas up if you feel so inclined. We have already addressed some of the things you brought up, like the slingshot/bow thing...@Bombs: Ah, alright... I was just double checking, that's all. ^^
@Stig, bombs, we're basically gonna use bombs as ammo for the bomb cannon, so I don't think we'll have different types, unless they're part of a side quest, like ALTTP. I'm pretty sure that bomb just blew up part of the pyramid of power, and nothing else. I think that if we have items like that, which relate only to side quests and stuff, we won't decide them here, these are more... General use items.
As for the cloak, I still don't understand how it'd be related to the gerudo, since that part of the game is taking place in the Sheikah area of the game.
About the throwing a sword thing, I actually haven't played zelda one. I was thinking about sword moves, like in TP and MC. I don't think we'll get too into them here, though.
So, as far as equipment goes:Yeah, it is noted in the plot so far that the Master Sword _is_ found in the final dungeon. I think we should probably discuss the game plot sometime soon so we don't have inconsistencies going on between the items and plot or unless what you're saying is that we _are_ following the current plot. If that's the case, then that's fine so as long as we can make any changes in the long run!(Can't rule out the possibility of new ideas coming up)
I'm pretty sure the master sword is a plot thing, found in the FINAL dungeon, if the game plot thus far is still gonna be basically followed. Which makes it not a by applicable thing for helping on the game, so I'd suggest some kinda (maybe optional) sword in between the first and master swords.
As I recall from our discussions, we were both talking in agreement to an idea along the lines of this. I agree with the optional part, but as you've mentioned, we're going to discuss how they're obtained later. So the optional part, +1.
Second sword- optional to obtain. It will take some effort in puzzle solving (finding requisite materials, or the blacksmith or something) but will be fairly obvious. It's power level will be between the first sword and the master sword, and it will be available to obtain after the Zara dungeon.
Item upgrades: (we'll think about how they're obtained later)Sorry to cut the quotebox off here, but I wanted to throw in a functionality idea for the pegasus boots. This actually comes from BS Zelda: Ancient Stone Tablets. You can move in 4 directions while running with the boots. If you want a video displaying this, I can go fetch one if you like.
Controlable (magic) boomerang
Swim faster
Longshot extension
Shoot arrows further/more rapidly
Shield upgrade
Optional items:
Magic Powder
Pegasus Boots
Roc's CapeIt would be cool if the player could hold 'A'(or the action button) to perform a "slam" move with their sword? Silly idea, but this would be a neat sword move upgrade.
Bottles - four, which behave just like they go in every zelda game.Wind Fiddle... I like it!
Warping instrument - optional, but easy to obtain, found in a cave or someplace. Playing the instrument allows you to warp to specific places on the map, as long as you've already been there, like the wind crests in MC.
I think it'd be cool if the instrument were percussion, like a bell, triangle, cymbal, or those wooden ridged things you scrape with a drumstick. However, imagining Link playing them and warping isn't as cool. So perhaps a stringed instrument. It needs to be small, which lends itself to woodwinds, but flutes and ocarinas have already been done...
Therefore, I'm deciding to call it the wind fiddle.
Furthermore, we already discussed this, but there should also be a logbook.How would one go writing the entry in the logbook? Would this be a pre-scripted event so as long as the player activates it properly? I like the idea, but it would be cool if you could elaborate here.
When you encounter a puzzle you can't solve, you write it in the logbook, along with a couple specifics, such as location and puzzle type. You also record chests you open and find more rupees than you can carry, you put them back and write down the location. Therefore, the logbook will contain a map.
Pegasus boots, I thought the limitation in direction was an important limitation that kept the boots from being too powerful, as you're kinda invincible until you either run into something you can't hurt, or get hit from the wrong angle. It might be able to work, but it seems like it'd be something that'd need to be tested, to me.@Needing to be tested: Yeah, sure! I see where you're making your point.
As for the sword slam move, we'll consider it when we're discussing that aspect of the sword. After the items are finished off and we have a meeting, we're going into much more basic stuff, which will be essential for the programmers, probably.Yes sir.
As for the logbook, by you write it, I meant Link writes it, by which I meant, it appears in the logbook. So yeah, per scripted event.Hahahaa. Programmers go on strike. I am going to speak for both me and Steve(MG-Zero), we don't throw away good ideas.. if something is difficult to do, we'll find a solution to make it work one way or another. ;)
Also, this item will be one of the first to be abandoned if the programmers go on strike or something, because it is probably a lot of work for a small convenience that's never been in a zelda game before. In fact, although I like it, I am a bit worried it might make things too easy. But of course, it won't solve the puzzle, just remind you where it is, and what's involved...
Alright, glad to hear about the tenacity towards the logbook. But still, it would take a bit of time to do, as well as lots of effort and planning for a minor convenience, which might even end up making the game too easy! Well, I dunno. This is a decision I don't really want to make by myself, which is why we have a team.I'm fairly confident we can engineer something that could make this an easier process.. just by how I had the psuedo code down on my notebook. (I was just forecasting how this could be done, which would be through a database tracking logbook entries and various triggers that'll fire up the proper events needed to make this all execute together)
Seemed appropriate to post this here somehow XDAhaha!! This would be an awesome easter egg
There are some more funny Zelda video's on the guy's channel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01v1tcbniSw