ZFGC

General => King of Thieves => Archive => Game Design => Topic started by: Bludleef on April 11, 2011, 02:28:02 am

Title: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Bludleef on April 11, 2011, 02:28:02 am
Welcome Items Group!  

In this topic the main focus right now is to brainstorm what items from previous Zeldas do we want to include?

For your reference some links.

Items List for:

Current Item List:

Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on April 11, 2011, 02:34:21 am
I'm just gonna throw together a list of main items off the top of my head...This is clearly not all of the, so please everyone add to this!

hookshot/long shot/clawshot
arrows-fire, ice, light
bombs
bombchus
spinner
ball and chain
magic beans
boomerang
deku sticks
deku nuts
ocarina/flute/wind waker
slingshot
pegasus boots
magic mirror
iron boots
Hammer
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on April 11, 2011, 04:14:36 am
I will post what I gathered from the old KoT:

New Items:
Magic Carpet (used to travel long distances at speed, cross ravines, fly in the air)
 Lightning Rod (fires a ball of electricity with the primary use of powering the inner workings of the final dungeon: the Celestial Clock)

Other items mentioned on the “Item and Abilities” thread:
DekuSnaps
Bottles(4)
Bow
Magnet gloves
Regular bombs
Normal Shield
Backlash Shield (Absorbs attack, and sends back an attack)Guardain Sheild (Block Projectile attacks)
Boomerang (Regular Boomerang)
Magic Boomerang (Farther ranged Boomerang)
Fairy Boomerang (Homing Homing)
The Big Bomb
hammer
Swords: 3 swords, one of which is optional
Hookshot

Link abilities:

Pickpocketing
Tightrope
Lockpicking
Basic Locks:
-Houses
-Certain weak doors
-Doors in caverns, etc.
-a few doors in a dungeon

Heavy-Duty Locks:
-Castle Locks, fortress locks
-dungeon locks


Transportation:


Majora Mask Owl Statue
Magic Carpet



I will give an opinion on each item when I get time during the week, and hopefully find more information for the other threads ;p
Guitar/Ocarina
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: masterpaul on June 12, 2011, 09:56:32 pm
Basicly I think we should think out of the box, not necessarly using Items that have been used in previous games, and not necessarly using items from previous games exactly the same way. In order to make this game more interesting and more fun, and to separate it from the other zelda games.

E.g. Rocs feather... jump and jump, jump over holes and moving obsticles... great! :P Now how about jumping from one building to other building and over small ledges?

How about a magic staff esque item. That can stop and magically fix items of age, and power objects? So lets say theres a golden sun like puzzle that these power must be powered by this staff after shorting them out. Or one of the gates mechanism out of hyrule castle has been destroyed and you must fix it with this rod, inorder to go through it. In battles this rod could disable enemies... like stone statues... or power up ancient statues, that may aid you in battles and other tasks.

Just some ideas for you guys to consider. :P
Title: Battle System
Post by: masterpaul on June 15, 2011, 12:24:42 am
Just an idea, since im not doing anything in this group. How about using the mouse? right click to use ur sword etc. Aim the bow with your mouse. Using the strengths of the pc to our advantage.


Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 05, 2011, 01:01:24 pm
 :D

I think Link should have an overwhelming amount of items. *drool* I mean think about it, you know you love that feeling you get when you crack open that fancy looking chest and you KNOW theres a boss ass kicking item in it! I'm an extreme fan of Item-grabbing games, they make progress and work fun and worth it! I'm sure you guys feel the same. And what I mean by overwhelming is; a lot to choose from. Heres a list:

Items you use in combat

Puzzle Items

Trading Items/Traded Items

Misc items that you can eat/sell or just plain out give away

And as for the mouse idea paul had; I think we should add mouse features as well. For mini-games and attachments such as the longshot or grappling hook. It would be in the settings, to turn this feature on/off.

Also, what about giving Link the item effect in WW? Each item he uses shows up on his person?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on August 09, 2011, 03:00:02 am
Lets please pick up on this section.  Dungeon design cannot really go anywhere until the items are finalized.  I think we know our obvious weapons/items such as arrows, bombs and boomerang.  So lets try and make a few unique ones and figure out which dungeon each will be placed in.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: RetroRespecter on August 09, 2011, 02:57:50 pm
Seed Shooter, Roc's Cape, and Hover Boots
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on August 09, 2011, 06:22:25 pm
Might I contribute my custom item, the Gravity Boots?
(Allows you walk onto certain walls to cross pits)
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on August 09, 2011, 09:26:47 pm
Interesting...explain a bit?  Like, how would they work in a 2D environment?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 10, 2011, 01:45:41 am
Lets please pick up on this section.  Dungeon design cannot really go anywhere until the items are finalized.  I think we know our obvious weapons/items such as arrows, bombs and boomerang.  So lets try and make a few unique ones and figure out which dungeon each will be placed in.

Obvious weapons, huh? Like something Link HAS to have in order to kick evil butt? Well, okay I gotta few.

Since Link will be traveling through valleys of snow, and mountains made of fire, it would be a good idea to think about Link's Inventory as well. I bet he'd link a nice, warm, fire tunic when walking in a moulted volcano. Or even an Ice Suit as well even when moving through piles of snow and ice. But thats just Inventory talk. What kick ass weapon Link earns through his travels and hardships should be something useful, and usable. What I mean by that is Link should be able to use his Items on almost ANYTHING. Even on enemies. All of his Items should be used in combat a different way. I always wanted to flip a ChuChu with Pico Cane lol.

Among those Items are endless possibilities.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on August 10, 2011, 01:00:03 pm
I agree, many items in Zelda as of late have been entirely useless (Skull Hammer excluded).  Where are Colby and Sinkin?  They're like..the only two guys on the items group.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Colbydude on August 10, 2011, 05:23:09 pm
Where are Colby and Sinkin?  They're like..the only two guys on the items group.

*Hears my name, comes running.*

Sorry, been busy these past few days moving back from my dad's and trying to get another job.

Anyways, not too much coming from my head at the moment (just woke up), but something I'd like to see make a return is that Hyper Slingshot from Oracle of Seasons. Having it shoot in 3 directions added some interesting mechanics. Once I get some free time today or tomorrow I'll start compiling a list of some of the most useless items that have shown up, and see if we can think of some way to give them another purpose.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on August 10, 2011, 06:30:14 pm
Interesting...explain a bit?  Like, how would they work in a 2D environment?
I'll try to draw up an example in a few days but til then, think like the magnetic iron boots in Twilight Princess if you need a quick thought. Of with 2D limitations. It is possible to do. I've done it.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 10, 2011, 07:02:43 pm
Heres some Items I think should return from MC:

Pico Cane: Can flip anything, even enemies. also when used on certain things the changes vary from one to another. For example:
(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1386/16575515.png)
Using the cane on a ChuChu would flip it and turn it inside out into a messy puddle of goo. While on other enemies such as a Moblin, It'd just flip him and make him angry.
Minish Cap: I loved how this game went from big too small, It would be cool if the whole minish cap shrinking experience was in an over-head view. Like for example; Using the cap in the city or town would put you directly below it. To fully explore the world in minish size! Instead of a little icon floating over your head.
The Gust Jar: On top of it being a jar that can suck up anything, it makes a good vacuum cleaner. It can reach things from afar like rubies, hearts, and enemies.

Well, these are just a few ideas I had when I brainstorm. More powerful and resourceful items fall in the puzzle and weapon category.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Colbydude on August 11, 2011, 04:43:40 pm
Alrighty, here's my list of items that have only one appearance throughout the Zelda Series:


So that's what I see as the items not really having a counterpart in another Zelda game in some way, shape, or form. There's a little bending, but meh. I just kinda separated them because of their functionality and how they change the game. So if we wanted to throw something different in, here's a good start. Of course though, don't be afraid to throw in original ideas like King Tetiro's Gravity Boots.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 11, 2011, 06:09:24 pm
Soooo, do we start classifying these objects to explain their meaning and use in the game? Where they are found, how and when to use them, and what they do in/to the 2D environment.

Personally, I like everyones item list, and should be compiled to a final list. With everyones main item ideas intact.

so far we got:

Magic Items:
Quote
Roc's Cape
Seed Shooter
Magic Mirror
Pegasus boots
Magic beans
Cross
Rings
Rod of Seasons
Rod of Ages
Gust Jar
Cane of Pacci
Hero's Charm
Sand Wand
Combat Items/Useful Items:
Quote
Iron Boots
Magnetic Gloves
Spinner
Ball and Chain
Bow
Swords
Bombs
Boomerangs
Shields
Hammers
Other:
Quote
Deku Sticks
Deku Nuts
Slingshot
Hyoi Pear
Switch Hook
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on August 13, 2011, 08:39:47 pm
We should design the items per usefullness.. for example of your magic Items, I see the Rod of Seasons, Rod of Ages useless, since they just appear in that game and we aren't messing with seasonal changes or time warps.  The Cross and Rings feel usefull too (actually I don't know in what game they appear XD I guess Zelda I and OoA/OoS respectively), Spinner might not work for this game.


Then we should see the items depending of the function, the Hookshot, magnetic gloves, and Switch Hook have the same function, moving you from A to B. So no matter which of those three we use it will be nearly the same :). Same applies for the Slingshot and the Bow,

The Hyoi Pear and the Magic Beans can work, mostly the Magic Beans, yet the Hyoi Pear is used to talk to fishes not sure how that will work in this game.


Actually I think we must define first the number of Items we are going to use. And if we are going to add Tunics and boots, and if we actually add them, we must define is they will be considered as Items or if they will have a special screen for the selection ( a la OoT).


Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on August 13, 2011, 09:30:22 pm
I couldn't find the resources to make an example for the Gravity Boots. They would work like the magnetic iron boots in TP. That's all I can say really.

If I can find someone to sprite me a few sprites to show what I mean, I'd be able to explain easier
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 13, 2011, 10:07:15 pm
We should design the items per usefullness.. for example of your magic Items, I see the Rod of Seasons, Rod of Ages useless, since they just appear in that game and we aren't messing with seasonal changes or time warps.  The Cross and Rings feel usefull too (actually I don't know in what game they appear XD I guess Zelda I and OoA/OoS respectively), Spinner might not work for this game.


Then we should see the items depending of the function, the Hookshot, magnetic gloves, and Switch Hook have the same function, moving you from A to B. So no matter which of those three we use it will be nearly the same :). Same applies for the Slingshot and the Bow,

The Hyoi Pear and the Magic Beans can work, mostly the Magic Beans, yet the Hyoi Pear is used to talk to fishes not sure how that will work in this game.


Actually I think we must define first the number of Items we are going to use. And if we are going to add Tunics and boots, and if we actually add them, we must define is they will be considered as Items or if they will have a special screen for the selection ( a la OoT).




I like to keep an open mind when dealing with the Item fracture in KOT. What if some items have the same ability, they can be used differently in the 2D environment.(e.g bow and slingshot) The bow is more of a combat weapon, it pierces through the opponent killing it, while the slingshot knocks things over and stun enemies.

Every item is useful in it's own way. The environment can be effected by each item a different way. Using your items on enemies can result in different reactions as well.

As for items that have special menus like the Inventory, I think tunics and charts/maps should go there while Quest Items would have-?

Heres a list of existing zelda items so far:
Show content
All-Purpose Bait
Ambrosia Lite
Ancient Sky Book
Angler Key
Apple
Armor Seed
Arrow
Ashei's Sketch
Auru's Memo

Big Bag
Bait
Bait Bag
Ball and Chain
Bamboozle grass
Bananas
Barrel
Basket
Battle Axe
Bee
Bee Larva
Beedle's Membership Cards
Beetle
Big Catch Lure
Bird Key
Bird Statue
Blue Arrow
Blue Bracelet
Blue Fire
Blue Potion
Blue Ring
Bobber Lure
Boko Baba Seed
Boko Nut
Bomb
Bomb Arrow
Bomb Bag
Bomb Flower
Bomb fruit
Bombchu
Bombchu Bag
Bombers' Notebook
Bombling
Bone Ocarina
Book of Koridai
Book of Mudora
Book of Seals
Boom Box
Boomerang
Boots
Boss Remains
Bottle
Bottle of Magic
Bottled Water
Bow
Bow of Light
Broom
Brother Emblem
Bug
Bug Catching Net
Bullet Bag

Cabana Deed
Candle
Cane of Byrna
Cane of Pacci   
Cane of Somaria
Cannon
Capture Staff
Carlov Medal
Carrot
Charles's Necklace
Chateau Romani
Cheesy Mustache
Cheval Rope
Chip
Chu Jelly
Claim Check
Clawshot
Cojiro
Comfork
Compass
Compass of Light
Coral Earring
Cross
Crossbow
Crown Key
Crystal
Cuccodex
Cyclone Slate

Eight Instruments of the Sirens
Elixir Soup
Engine Grease
Engineer Certificate
Engineer's Clothes
Essences of Nature
Essences of Time
Eye Drops
Eyeball Frog

Face Key
Fairy
Fairy Doll
Fairy Flower Sap
Fairy Ocarina
Fairy Powder
Fairy's Scroll
Farore's Wind
Fighter's Shield
Figurines in The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap
Figurines in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker
Fire Arrow
Fire Rod
Fish

Fish Journal
Fishing Hook
Fishing Rod
Flame Lantern
Flippers
Floodgate Key
Flute
Food
Force Field Ring
Force Gem
Forest Firefly
Forest Water
Frog Lure
Fungal Spores
Funny Joke
Fused Shadow

Gale Boomerang
Gasha Seed
Gerudo's Membership Card
Ghastly Doll
Gilded Sword
Gnarled Key
Gnat Hat
Goat Milk
Goddess Pearls
Gold Dust
Gold Sculpture
Gold Skulltula
Golden Bee
Golden Bug
Golden Compass
Golden Feather
Golden Gauntlets
Golden Key
Golden Leaf
Golden Scale
Golden Whistle
Goron Amber
Goron Bracelet
Goron Iron
Goron Vase
Goronade
Grappling Hook
Graveyard Key
Great Fairy's Sword
Great Fairy's Tears
Great Key
Green Arrow
Grip Ring
Ground Shell
Guard Notebook
Guardian Acorn
Gust Jar

Hammer
Handprint
Harp of Ages
Hawkeye
Heart Container
Hero's New Clothes
Hero's Shield
Hibiscus
Honeycomb
Hookshot
Horse Call
Hot Spring Water
Hover Boots
Huge Maku Seed
Hylian Shield
Hyoi Pear

Ice Arrow
Ice Rod
Ingredients in Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland
Invoice
Iron Boots
Iron Pot
Iron Shield
Items in Freshly-Picked Tingle's Rosy Rupeeland
[/quote]
Quote
Jabber Nut
Jewel of Control
Jewels
Joy Pendant
Junk

Kaleidoscope
Key
Kidnapped Child
King's Key
Kinstone
Knight's Crest
Kokiri Boots

Lantern
Lantern Oil
Large Brass Key
Lava Juice
Lava Soup
Lens of Truth
Library Books
Library Key
Light Arrow
Light Force
Link Doll
Lokomo Sword
Lon Lon Egg
Lon Lon Ketchup
Love Carp
Lumber
Lyre

Mage's Cap
Magic Armor
Magic Arrow
Magic Bean
Magic Book
Magic Cape
Magic Compass
Magic Honey
Magic Jar
Magic Medallions
Magic Mirror
Magic Mushroom
Magic Oar
Magic Powder
Magic Ring
Magic Rod
Magic Rope
Magic Scroll
Magical Boomerang
Magical Clock
Magical Key
Magical Shield
Magnetic Glove
Magnifying Glass

Magnifying Lens
Map
Master Rupee
Master Sword
Master's Plaque
Meat Soup
Medal of Courage
Medli's Harp
Mega Ice
Megaphone
Member's Card
Mermaid Key
Mermaid Suit
Mermaid's Necklace
Mermaid's Scale
Milk
Minced Meat
Mini Death Bug Chrysalis
Mirror Shield
Mirror of Truth
Mirror of Twilight
Mole Mitts
Moon Pearl
Moon's Tear
Mushroom
Mysterious Shell
Mystery Item
Mystical Seeds
Nayru's Love
Nidorian
Noble Sword
Quote
Ocarina
Ocarina of Time (Item)
Ocarina of Wind
Odd Mushroom
Odd Potion
Oinker snout
Ooccoo
Ooccoo Jr.
Oracle Charms
Ordon Goat Cheese
Ordon Pumpkin
Ordon Shield
Ore
Oshus's Sword
Overworld Item List
Overworld Magnet
Owl Statue

Pearl Necklace
Pegasus Boots
Pendant of Memories
Pendants of Virtue
Phantom Ganon's Sword
Phantom Hourglass (Item)
Phantom Sphere
Phantom Sword
Phonograph
Photo Album
Picolyte
Pictograph Box
Pictograph box
Piece of Power
Pineapple
Pink Coral
Pirate's Bell
Pirate's Charm
Poacher's Saw
Pocket Cucco
Poe Clock
Poe Soul
Popper Lure
Potion
Potion of Power
Powder Keg
Power Bracelet
Power Glove
Prescription
Prize Postcard
Pumpkin Seed
Pure Metal

Queen Juice
Quiver

Rabbit Net
Raft
Rail Map
Razor Seed
Razor Sword
Recipes
Recorder
Recovery Heart
Recruit's Sword
Red Darknut Arrow
Red Potion
Red Ring
Red Shield
Regal Necklace
Regal Ring
Rib Steak
Ribbon
Ricky's Gloves
Ring Box
Roc's Feather
Rock Brisket
Rock Sirloin
Rod of Seasons
Rupee
Rupee Good
Rupoor
Rusty Bell
Ruto Crown
Ruto's Letter

S.S. Linebeck
Sage Medallion
Sail
Salvage Arm
Sand Wand
Sand of Hours
Scabbard
Scent
Scent Seedling
Sea Ukulele
Secret Notes
Secret Seashell
Seed Satchel
Seed Shooter
Shadow Crystal
Shield
Shield of Antiquity
[/left]

We should just pick the most useful and exciting items from older series, and make up some ideas on our own for them.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on August 13, 2011, 10:33:18 pm
I must agree that every item is important yet we shouldn't add 30 items just because we can do it, I prefer to keep the number low and make the usage creatively. And add a representative item from important games (Like magic beans from OoT, the Owl statues for transportation from MM, the Magnetic Gloves from OoS the Pegasus Boots from LTTP), and perhaps after that just try to make what items make link a better thief ;).
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 14, 2011, 02:08:39 am
Yea, having to many to choose from could be a confusing problem for the player and programmers. Let's just pick out the best ones then. The slingshot looks like a good thief item, kinda like a pre-bow item.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on August 14, 2011, 08:05:40 am
If we can implement it, the grappling hook or the whip would make great thief items too
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: FrozenFire on August 14, 2011, 08:58:57 am
I feel that each Zelda game has a formula for items. Each new game takes the basic items previously known throughout the franchise (e.g. Bow, Arrows, Bombs, etc) which is roughly 50% of the items, plus a few familiar items (e.g. Hookshot) which is roughly another 25%, but then they always introduce a few new items; roughly the other 25%. I'm probably not very accurate in that statement, but I am to a point; It's all about the balance of useful and familiar items with new items that bring something tasty and deliciously fresh to the table. (excuse my weird language, I'm a bit hungry atm)

I had a VERY long document containing a list of items for my next planned Zelda game (after Spirit's Quest). I've taken all the descriptive stuff out and a few items (as some items would spoil SQ), but here is what I came up with for my game. Notice the combination of familiar items with new items:



<<< ITEM LIST >>>

Main Items

BOW & ARROWS (5 Count)
- Hero’s Bow
--- Ice Arrows
--- Fire Arrows
--- Light Arrows
--- Bomb Arrows
BOOMERANG (2 Count)
- Boomerang
- Dual Boomerang (Pretty much just 2 boomerangs)
BOMBS (2 Count)
- Bombs
- Super Bombs
FLASH BEANS (A merge between magic beans and deku nuts: These may be thrown to create a bright stunning flash, but they may also be planted in certain soils and watered for INSTANT plant growth)
STAFF OF KALISTA (A rod that creates ice blocks, but beware that these blocks will melt in hot places!)
OCARINA OF WINDS
HOOK SHOT
SHADOW CLOAK (Link may make himself invisible to the human eye. Beasts are not so easily fooled; they can smell you stupid!)
VULDRED’S CLAWS (2 Count)
(Note: A "Vuldred" was planned to be an evolved version of a "Vuldra" which is a bird-like mole beast (yes, very odd and ugly))
- Vuldred’s Claws (Allows Link to dig holes to search for buried treasures as well as burrow beneath very soft soils)
- King Vuldred’s Claws (Allows Link to do the above as well as scale certain walls)
BOTTLES (4 Count)

Secondary Items

SWORDS & SHIELDS
HERO’S TUNIC
FIRE TUNIC
WATER TUNIC
POWER GAUNTLETS
HOVER BOOTS
QUIVERS
BOMB BAGS
RUPEE BAGS

Temporary Items

STORY/MISC:
- Blacksmith's Key (Sequence A, Item 01/01)
- (Insert more items here)
- Key of Thieves (Ending item)
TRADING SEQUENCE
- Mushroom (Sequence A, Item 01/??)
- Meat (Sequence A, Item 02/??)
- (Insert more items here)
- Magic Gem (Ending item)

Special Items

QUEST COLLECTION A (4 Count)
- Blade of Light Piece (1)
- Blade of Light Piece (2)
- Blade of Light Piece (3)
- Blade of Light Piece (4)
QUEST COLLECTION B (3 Count)
- Triforce of Courage
- Triforce of Wisdom
- Triforce of Power
HEART CONTAINERS
MAGIC CONTAINERS

<<< MORE ITEMS >>>

Wind Tablets/Wind Songs (12 Count)
- Song of Memories - Brings you to Koro Village.
- Fairy Song - Brings you to Lost Woods.
- Zelda's Lullaby - Brings you to Hyrule Castle entrance. Used for Hyrulian Seals and other secrets.
- Song of Heights - Brings you to Death Mountain.
- Song of Frost - Brings you to Frozen Peak.
- Ghost's Melody - Brings you to Haunted Forest.
- Song of Sands - Brings you to Gerudo Desert.
- Song of Guards - Brings you to Gerudo Fortress.
- Song of Seas - Brings you to Kuno Beach.
- Scarecrow's Song - Awakens scarecrows up from their dirt patches.
- Lycia's Song - Brings you to Imel.
- Song of Secrets - Does many secret things. In a certain place it will bring you to a secret land.

Bottle Items (10 Count)
- Water - Dump it on stuff, like plants. Fill up the dry well all the way for a secret item! (<-- example of brainstorming for item usage ideas)
- Poe - Maybe some "strange person" wants this...
- Milk - Heals a little life.
- Firefly - Use to light up dark places.
- Red Chu Jelly - Heals Link well.
- Green Chu Jelly - Replenishes some MP.
- Blue Chu Jelly - Replenishes all HP.
- Yellow Chu Jelly - Replenishes all MP.
- White Chu Jelly - Replenishes all HP and MP.
- Black Chu Jelly - Does one of the above, but may also hurt Link.

Refills/Other (8 Count)
  - Rupees - Money to buy items, keys, weapons, bribe people, you name it.
    (Green 1, Blue 5, Yellow 10, Red 20, Purple 50, Orange 100, Silver 200, Clear/Glows 500)
  - Small Heart - Refills your life a little.
  - Group of Hearts - Refills your life quite well.
  - Magic Essence - Refills your magic a little.
  - Magic Jar - Refills your magic quite well.
  - Arrows - In packs of 5, 10, 25 and 50.
  - Bombs - Single or in packs of 5, 10, and 25.
  - Flash Bean - Use to blind enemies, also to grow plants in special soil or special water.

<<< CURRENTLY REJECTED ITEMS >>>

Hammer/Goron's Hammer - Pound, smash, break and create destructive shockwaves... Fun!
Bomb-chu - Moving bombs that climb walls! (Bomb arrows can be used in place of these, kind of)
Mirror Shield - Reflect light and pretty much all magic attacks.
(Have Alt.) Shovel - Dig for goodies!
(Also took out dark magic arrows)
Long Range Bow (I have a "power" feature, so it isn't necessary)
Graveyard Key - The key to the graveyard.
Goron's Key - The key to the Fire Temple.
Pirate's Key - Use on the doors of Gerudo Fortress.
Royal Key - Use in castles... you may be surprised.



Sorry if it's a bit messy with my personal notes that may confuse. I had to take a lot out and modify it a bit to make it readable on here since it didn't transfer well from my pretty document.

Feel free to use any item ideas in there that sound good. Anyway, I just wanted to be sure that you guys were planning on adding a few TOTALLY NEW items. When choosing items, keep in mind the possible uses. The key is to find a small amount of items that have vast uses that will allow for an epic adventure. Gimmicky items are a hassle; they are not fun and they have limited uses. An example of this, in my opinion, is the rod from TP. I didn't like the rod at all; it wasn't a fun item, and it wasn't even that useful. But, I'm sure there are people that disagree, which is fine. But it's still good to make sure items aren't forced into the game just because they are "cool" items or something.
What I did is I brainstormed for each and every item on what all the possible uses and functions (I took this out of the above list to avoid info overkill ^_^). The items that seemed shallow in those areas were often rejected, or maybe one item was too much alike another item, so I would go and compare my thoughts on each item's functionality and I could decide which to keep or throw away.

Just some of my thoughts. I hope I helped in some way and I wish the KoT project the best! ^_- !

P.S. Sorry this is so long. The use of spoilers made the information get all messy and I didn't see any other way to post all of it. ... don't hit me please! D:
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on August 14, 2011, 02:50:19 pm
That's a really good list!  Good work! :)  To keep this all flowing, I'm going to throw this template out to be filled in by this group..

MAIN ITEMS
  -Item Name
  -Dungeon found in
  -Functionality
  -Requirements to use (i.e. MP consumption)
  -Uses (What type of switches it activates, for example)

SECONDARY ITEMS
  -Item Name
  -Location found (if it's found commonly, or if it needs to be gotten through an npc, or a sidequest)
  -Requirements to use
  -Functionality
  -Uses

EQUIPMENT
  -Item Name
  -Item Type (Sword, tunic etc)
  -Location found
  -Advantages/disadvantages over other equipment

Whenever a new item is decided upon, fill this template out and it will be added to the first post.  Do not make too exhaustive of a list, and do not exceed the number of dungeons for main items!!  If we can get all of the main items (or at least half of them) decided upon in say...2 or 3 weeks, that would be awesome!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 15, 2011, 04:21:40 am
Maybe we should post one item at a time, so we don't get the same items twice and get confused. :-\
I agree with what Frozen said earlier, most of the recurring Zelda items are the essential ones. Like Swords, Shields, and maybe Boots. :P

Dibs on the master sword!

Quote
(http://www.zeldawiki.org/images/thumb/3/32/OoT_Master_Sword.png/482px-OoT_Master_Sword.png)
MAIN ITEMS
  -Master Sword
  -Temple of Time(2nd visit)
  -A very sharp blade! Can slice through anything!!
  -None, Can use anywhere...BUT IN HOUSES!
  -Can deflect other spear, sword, trowing related attacks.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on August 17, 2011, 12:29:41 am
Okay I think we should first define what quantity, to give an idea Minish Cap has 16 items, while OoT has 24 ( without the sword, shield and tunics). Also! I don't want to include tunics and boots, if boots are added let's just add them as MC or OoA/OoS did, where you have to equip them to the hud slot to be able to use them, but since it's our game I would like to see other people think and perhaps make a poll out of it?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 17, 2011, 04:23:54 pm
I think 16 kind of a big number!  XD At first I thought we was gonna go with only 10 items, and no inventory items(like fish scale or boots). I dunno, we want this game to be way more of a quest then MC was, and MC was a little short compared to OoS/OoA. But yea, maybe we should only give slot spots to only useful and unique items.

16 seems a little big imo, but 24 is pushing it. 13-14 seems adequate. At first, I thought we were going for an item grabber, having link stack up to about 28 items!I must admit, that would have been pretty sweet. But we should think about this logically, as to what link doses and goes on his quest.

yea, a poll would do great.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on August 17, 2011, 05:16:54 pm
There should be one unique main item for each dungeon as we know how Zelda works, so 4 of those plus generic zelda items (bomb, arrows, boomerang...).  After that, there are the side items, such as magic beans from OoT and rings from OoS/OoA (I'm using these as examples, I'm not suggesting to include them).  And then sword and shield upgrades.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Colbydude on August 17, 2011, 05:44:24 pm
There should be one unique main item for each dungeon as we know how Zelda works, so 4 of those plus generic zelda items (bomb, arrows, boomerang...).  After that, there are the side items, such as magic beans from OoT and rings from OoS/OoA (I'm using these as examples, I'm not suggesting to include them).  And then sword and shield upgrades.

I agree with this completely. I'd love to see rings make a return.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on August 17, 2011, 07:50:22 pm
Might I suggest the spinner from Twilight Princess? Because it could easily work in 2D as apart from altitude in TP, it mainly was used on a 2 Dimensional plane.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on August 17, 2011, 10:09:48 pm
I actually hated the spinner, and most items in TP, actually I hated TP, the items were only used inside the dungeon, and most dungeons were really easy like you only had one key at any time during a dungeon, and most dungeons contained a room with two doors, you enter door A and it was locked, so you knew you had to go to door B grab the key and return to door A, all dungeons were the same even WW did something of this but WW is funnier :).

Anyways, I guess we should follow what 2d games did, mostly OoS/OoA, they had some sweet items and they made it work.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on August 17, 2011, 10:43:45 pm
I actually hated the spinner, and most items in TP, actually I hated TP, the items were only used inside the dungeon, and most dungeons were really easy like you only had one key at any time during a dungeon, and most dungeons contained a room with two doors, you enter door A and it was locked, so you knew you had to go to door B grab the key and return to door A, all dungeons were the same even WW did something of this but WW is funnier :).

Anyways, I guess we should follow what 2d games did, mostly OoS/OoA, they had some sweet items and they made it work.
Maybe we could redeem the Spinner. I feel that it was underrated in TP. I agree the rest of the items were naff but the Spinner had something new to it.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: FrozenFire on August 18, 2011, 04:16:58 am
I know I'm not officially working on this project, but I really think that it's important for an item to be explored in it's functionality to figure out it's usefulness before it should even be accepted as a candidate for the items that will be used in KoT. I think items should be explored in this way, then added to a vote list. Once we reach a good amount of items to vote for (however many that is), set up the voting and have everyone choose their top 5-10 items. For voting, all the brainstormed uses of items should be presented so that people can better choose a GOOD item. After voting is closed, you simply choose the highest rated items and walla, items are decided upon. Unfortunately, the polls on here don't seem like they would work too well because in this case it seems better to vote for your top 5-10 items from a list, not just 1 item. Anyway, I'm just trying to avoid clutter and to help things get worked out quickly and smoothly.

MY THOUGHTS ON GIMMICKY ITEMS VS. NON-GIMMICKY ITEMS:
Show content
Now the spinner was another item (like the rod from TP) that felt kind of gimmicky to me because it needed either a railway in a wall or a perfectly formed gear slot in the ground to work. The reason why it seems stupid to me is because it makes no sense that it would fit perfectly in something that wasn't supposed to be made for it, or maybe it was, so then you'd have to conclude that for some weird reason a railway on the other side of the world was made for this device, which seems kinda lame and unbelievable if you follow what I mean. In contrast, bombs feel a lot more natural and believable, because rocks and weak walls all over a world make more sense than railways in walls that the spinner just happens to fit in perfectly. It feels like the item idea is cool, but that it had to be a little too forced to make it useful in the game. Now, I know that there are always items that feel this way to a certain extent with ANY Zelda game, but I feel that the spinner is one of the items that had to be forced a little too much.

So I would vote against having the spinner AS IT IS. However, if someone can come up with new functionality and to give insight that makes it feel more believable, fun, useful, then I'm all for it.

That being said, here's a small example of brainstorming for the spinner:
Show content
Let's say the game has some steampunk elements and Link often comes across machines with gears. Maybe a gear is broken and it's causing the machine to stop working, so Link can destroy the gear with his sword or bombs, then Link can use the spinner in place of the gear and make the machine work. Perhaps the spinner is designed to form various sizes of gears by extending the prongs (or whatever you'd call them) to various lengths to fit; this makes it more believable that it doesn't just fit perfectly with anything for no reason.

Honestly though, I don't see enough potential in the spinner when there are so many other items to choose from.

Edit:
I have another idea for the spinner: Perhaps it could be used to pick certain heavy duty locks. Since the prongs could extend out to different lengths, maybe some doors would have a sort of inset star/gear pattern and you would have to insert the spinner in the door and maybe even use it like a dial on a safe. Not the best idea, but hey, I'm just throwing it out there.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on August 18, 2011, 09:36:01 pm
That is a very interesting point.  Comparing TP to OoT, we'll see that items in OoT just work in that world (eye switches for example, are all over the place.  Projectiles just happen to be perfect for activating them).  As opposed to TP, it feels like many of the items only worked in specific locations, which didn't make any sense as to why they worked there other than because the lego fits in the other lego. 
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 19, 2011, 04:13:21 am
 8)

What's the main sword in the game(like the sword link's gonna use)? Are we using an original item?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on August 19, 2011, 01:03:59 pm
I think the trend for a starting sword is usually just some generic sword name, or the wooden sword.  Perhaps the thief's sword?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 20, 2011, 07:32:27 am
I think we should start off like that. Just start with a simple name and ability?

Spinner - Can create mini tornadoes to destroy things. Unlocks several puzzles in dungeons.

I think the Spinner would be a great addition, it can be used as a magic/key weapon.

EDIT: How about Link starts off with a wooden sword(or stick) at first, then upgrades to a thief dagger(kinda like the hero's sword in WW), then ultimately to the final sword?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on August 20, 2011, 01:58:16 pm
The spinner creating tornados is interesting.  It can potentially solve the "lego fitting into another lego" issue.  It gives it an ability that's based on nature rather than one of its physical shape, so therefore puzzles across the game that use it make more sense. 

I think the wooden sword is a good start for the player, then progressing as you said.  Any ideas on the final sword?  Is it the Master Sword?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 20, 2011, 07:07:40 pm
I think the spinner would make a good item for "getting around" as well, like scaling certain walls, or a trench, carrying you across on a something. So yea, it would come in handy in a dungeon.

Maybe we should make the final sword the Master Sword, because Link is going up against Ganon anyway. It makes sense. With a little tweaking to the storyline, the Master Sword would make a great appearance in the game. So maybe the line would be a little like this:

Wooden Sword >> Thief's Dagger >> Master Sword

Maybe the dagger could be updated in some sort, maybe by one of Hyrule's smiths. Forging it into the Hero's Sword?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on August 20, 2011, 10:24:01 pm
hmm not sure if the term "Dagger" suits a a zelda game ;), perhaps Knife? or just Thief's Sword..? I like the idea of a spinner as tornado maker, I would like to see it an example first.. I was really expecting that we didn't add any type of transportation system :( but oh well.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 21, 2011, 12:28:46 am
Cool! "Thieves Knife"? How about "The Thief's Knife"? Or just Thief Knife.

Heres an example of Link using the Spinner to bring a tornado:
(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/299/ex2o.png)
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on August 23, 2011, 12:06:50 am
Looks cool! somewhat big the spinner haha, but I kinda get it, I just hope it doesn't end overused ;/, perhaps we can go with a giant leaf that when used makes tornados?

Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 23, 2011, 12:26:37 am
How about the Seed Shooter? It spits tornadoes! Also, th seed shooter has a lot of other capabilities as well, such as fire, rock and ice.

Of course, it's fairly different from the Ice/Fire Rod.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on August 23, 2011, 02:43:41 am
the problem with the seeds shooter is that is either that, or the bow, or the slingshot..
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 23, 2011, 04:50:27 am
 :-[

I like the bow and arrow. Speaking of witch, what kind of attachments we talking about here? Will there be a special kind of arrow, like the light arrow?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on August 25, 2011, 05:24:20 pm
So have we at the least decided on implementing an enhanced version of the spinner (one that can shoot tornados)?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on August 28, 2011, 03:08:21 pm
:-[

I like the bow and arrow. Speaking of witch, what kind of attachments we talking about here? Will there be a special kind of arrow, like the light arrow?
D; perhaps just the light arrow? or all ? not sure really!

So have we at the least decided on implementing an enhanced version of the spinner (one that can shoot tornados)?

hmm that's up to everyone else, but it seems yes..
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on August 29, 2011, 01:44:03 am
maybe we should have an item order, kinda like what OOT did:

slingshot >> bow & arrow

deku stick >> thief knife >> master sword

it makes since and gives us a lot more to think about(with is good since this a project).
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on September 02, 2011, 10:46:44 pm
maybe we should have an item order, kinda like what OOT did:

slingshot >> bow & arrow

deku stick >> thief knife >> master sword

it makes since and gives us a lot more to think about(with is good since this a project).

I actually like that idea!

what other items should we have?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on September 02, 2011, 11:14:29 pm
maybe we should have an item order, kinda like what OOT did:

slingshot >> bow & arrow

deku stick >> thief knife >> master sword

it makes since and gives us a lot more to think about(with is good since this a project).

I actually like that idea!

what other items should we have?


I actually support this idea as well (Taking a few hours off developing Chiming Bells)
I've looked at the current items list and deducted the following.
Pegasus Boots -> Magic Boots -> Iron Boots

You could also do it for the following but it seems a little daft.
Spinner -> Claw/Hook/Long Shot -> Hammer
Bombs -> Bombchus -> Ball and Chain

Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on September 06, 2011, 04:54:59 pm
Can we work such a system into the game with only 4 dungeons?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on September 07, 2011, 04:04:06 am
perhaps we can give the slingshot in the first dungeon and as a subquest in the desert you get the bow and arrow as a gift? abot the other ones not sure.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on September 07, 2011, 09:10:58 pm
Here's some food for thought. In Chiming Bells, I make a formula. You need an item to enter the dungeon and you find an item in the dungeon. That means with 4 main dungeons, there's 8 items overall.

Assuming you follow this formula, you could also have 8 items at least already sorted.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on September 15, 2011, 07:57:26 am
perhaps we can give the slingshot in the first dungeon and as a subquest in the desert you get the bow and arrow as a gift? abot the other ones not sure.

 XD

I like the idea of the slingshot being in the first dungeon. But may I suggest if it be made out as Link's favorite toy? Or something more convinceing like a contest prize or a stolen item? It will fit the setting well, and give Link an early practice in aiming at targets, it would be a good start for the player(who is a thief) as well.

If were only going for the MC origanal 12 items then maybe the layout should be 3 rows 4 per block.

sword > shield > ? > ?
?  > ? > ? > ?
? > ? > ? > ?

And maybe some other special items like the magic beans?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on September 17, 2011, 09:48:46 pm
Sword > Shield > Bombs > Lantern
Slingshot  > Boomerang > Hookshot > Pegasus Boots
Power Bracelet > Bottle > Bottle > Tradeable Item

My idea for upgrades are the following:

Deku Stick > Thief Knife > Master Sword

Slingshot > Bow

Shield > Mirror Shield

Tradeable Item > tons of random useless items > Big Goron Sword

Lantern > Magic Rod


All upgrades will be optional and from subquests, for example you can beat the game with Deku Sticks ;), that is atleast how I would do it.

Perhaps remove the Power Bracelet and add something else like the Roc's Feather that can be used and not only equipped.

Apart from that the Hookshot can be changed to the Switch Hook, or the Magnetic Gloves
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on September 18, 2011, 01:38:44 pm
When you say "magic rod", what do you have in mind of it doing? I think since it completes and  replaces the lantern, maybe, it should have control over ice and fire.

Or maybe we could say:

Lantern >> Firerod >> Magic Wand
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on September 18, 2011, 02:36:53 pm
I like the optional upgrade idea, but putting the Master Sword in the same category of the Deku Sticks seems a bit odd, especially considering the Deku Sticks have other functionality other than smacking things.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on September 19, 2011, 08:12:24 am
I like the optional upgrade idea, but putting the Master Sword in the same category of the Deku Sticks seems a bit odd, especially considering the Deku Sticks have other functionality other than smacking things.

True. It can be used as a torch as seen in OOT. The wooden sword from TP would make a better choice in this case.

While were at it, we should think about where and when the the items will appear.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on September 19, 2011, 11:54:21 pm
When you say "magic rod", what do you have in mind of it doing? I think since it completes and  replaces the lantern, maybe, it should have control over ice and fire.

Or maybe we could say:

Lantern >> Firerod >> Magic Wand
oh I'm mentioning the Magic Rod as in Fire Rod that's the name it appears in LTTP.. weird huh?

about the deku stick well, I would add it just for hardcore people, like you get it at the start and only use it to play around the city, yet once you are about to leave to hyrule field gannondorf tells you grab the sword in that chest, if you just leave  and go to hyrule field you will be playing  all the game with the deku stick, also the lantern can also works to complete the other function of the dekustick ;), apart from that, I don't mind if it's wooden sword or deku stick, I just mentioned dekustick because it sounded fun to kick ganon's ass with a stick.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on September 20, 2011, 02:20:57 pm
I have a proposal regarding the progression idea... you guys are thinking it in terms of a monorail when actually, you could go the non-traditional Zelda route and introduce more than one item between each dungeon or during each dungeon(s).. either that, or the amount of items you has will have to be dropped off if you're going to be doing a single step progression.

In response to the spinning top spawning tornado's idea, I feel the sprite from Minish Cap is propositional enough to do the job right. As for the usage, it should be based on magic... this wouldn't be the first time such a move were introduced in a Zelda game. Refer to Four Swords Adventures when you hold B long enough in the triangular stance... the four Links spin around the map in a very "torando-esque" fashion. Or better yet, Twilight Princess in itself had a tornado-esque move with the boomerang. That's something to think about. The tornado from the spin top could "boost" Link up allowing him to jump over cliffs, for example. I don't think the tornado's that are spawned from the spin-top should necessarily be moving around, but rather, stationary.

Thoughts?
 
EDIT: Sorry, hit enter!! That's why my post came in incomplete >_<..

EDIT #2: Also, before the items are worked out, I think the process in developing items should be done in a more organized fashion. You guys already had the idea, but maybe you should focus in on how the items would work with the game first before knowing what the items are. It doesn't make sense, I know. What I'm trying to say is, it's probably a good idea to know how the item progression will take place... you already knew that items would be essential keys to puzzles, so that's already half of that part done.

Maybe it's alright to talk about items here and there, though. It just felt important to note that since this topic was somewhat hard to follow starting off, but with time and patience it can be done.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on September 22, 2011, 04:59:48 pm
I do agree it's important to make the items work with the game first.  I also think your description of the spinner is a good start towards that.  It defines how the item functions.  What's left now is to discuss limitations on the item as well as types of puzzles it can be used on.  If we do this recursively for each major quest item, we'll know all of the puzzle types in the game and then they can be implemented into dungeons and sidequests.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on September 26, 2011, 07:43:05 pm
 8)

Spinner >> Can make tornadoes appear and lift heavy things(like statues and such) , can be used as a "key" in certain places.

Magic Rod >> Uses the elements to perform different acts such as burn, wet, grow, and send.

Slingshot >> Can stun enemies and hit targets from afar.

That's all I have so far, just a basic description of what each item dose.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on September 27, 2011, 01:19:02 am
Good good, that's a good start.  I do have to say though, they should be more specific (for example, what direction do the tornados from the spinner go, what are its limitations etc?).
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on October 27, 2011, 04:19:12 pm
So I'm not entirely where to pose this question, but, did this game die? It seemed like a fairly abrupt stop if so. I'm a little disappointed, because this coulda been pretty cool. Did any groups need help and not get it and now we're dead? I'm just asking this because I would like to help, if necessary...
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on October 28, 2011, 01:10:57 am
I have absolutely no idea what happened.  I check this everyday to see if there are any posts, I can't think of a way to kick start it.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on October 28, 2011, 04:27:12 am
Perhaps if you, presuming you have this power 'cause you seem to be the leader, one of those whether you want to or not because everybody is looking at you, perhaps if you make some executive decisions? Like say, okay, we've got five dungeons. We're gonna have the slingshot in the first one, fire rod in the second, hookshot in the third, and spinner in the fourth, you need whatever items to get into whatever dungeons, and then set up a system for people to make appeals if they dislike your decisions?

That's just one idea, anyway.

Also, there is no official, that I could find, King of Thieves to-do list. Personally, I work from to do lists, and this would help a lot, I think, because for ages in these forums, it's been people making suggestions and them being ignored and undecided because some other group has to make some decision first, but nobody is posting in their topic. For example, if the overworld guys need to decide where the dungeons are before the item guys can pick the items before the dungeon guys can start designing, then there should be a to do list in that order. Big red check marks are also very encouraging. I'd love to help, because I've become pretty good at to-do ing recently, as long as I have somebody who actually knows what's going on when I'm like, this needs done! Who does it?

The only thing is that this system isn't as conducive to the way the KoT forums are set up now. It'd be more streamlined if there was ONE forum, with maybe an appeals subforum. The topic at the top of the to do list is first, then once that's done, the topic is locked. Appeals could be made if somebody has another idea or something in the appeals subforum.

Still, I'm just brainstorming, though. I would really love to see the community game back on its feet, though, because since I joined I really like this community, even though I'm still pretty new.

Also... Perhaps everybody is just busy making their own games?

Also, and more off topic, this was my 100th post, and was posted right about the exact same time I turned nineteen. So commerative!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Eleo on October 28, 2011, 09:26:44 am
Just a tiny little nod to the subject, some to-do lists would work nicely, and even if it is a community project things would probably be easier with a leader who decides which suggestions are good and which won't work. Otherwise we all sit around after making contradicting suggestions, being all "yah, I think this, but you think that... so....."

I sort dropped out this summer, cause my dad got very sick (had a stroke), so all my extra energy just disappeared. However, with some clearer to-do structure on the project I wouldn't mind contributing sporadically now during the winter, stuff has stabilized and my energy is slowly coming back. Zelda fangames for the win, you know. Booh yah!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on October 28, 2011, 05:20:43 pm
Eleo - nbd, !@#$% happens

Donotfeed - If you read through the threads and glance and some of the older thread titles, there was a "to do list" so to speak, although we simply just put in plain sight what was the next step.  For some reason or another however, people ignored it.  I also attempted to get on track which items will appear in which dungeons, and the functionality of so said items (items were the most recent goal).  However, again, this was ignored despite several attempts to get it back on track and most members went and did their own thing.  Seriously, what do you do at that point?  The main plan to keep things on track was to have directors for each division organize content and submit it to myself, Star and Kren based on a deadline system.  This was working at first, but then our directors stopped participating.  This is probably where the issues started coming up.  I will send out a mass PM to all project participants in another attempt to get this back on track.  That will probably happen later tonight or early tomorrow, as I'm at work right now.  The goal is to get it back where we left off, which was defining the scope of the items.  
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on October 29, 2011, 02:13:05 pm
Good good, that's a good start.  I do have to say though, they should be more specific (for example, what direction do the tornados from the spinner go, what are its limitations etc?).

:D

The spinner mainly works as a key too some puzzle in ruin-like temples, like an old crypt or underground cavern(like the water temple, maybe) to "unlock" and expand the path or passageway. It works as this; the spinner enters a key like hole in the middle of the floor, which Link had to reach through his suspense, and (with you rapidly tapping the button) Link activates the spinner and the "door" or path will be revealed. It can also be used as a weapon, and, sometimes uses it's tornadoes to clear a path in over-world, among other things.

I'd like too also mention the items usefulness outside and inside dungeons as well. Like, if we are to only have 13 items, at least, we can explain why Link needs these items and such.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on October 31, 2011, 08:06:36 pm
Hey, I just had a brainstorm for the spinner, dunno if you guys will like it or not, but since we're using cogs, what if we combine the spinner with the cogs, so the end of the dungeon items have functionality? The spinner and cogs go hand in hand in regards to shape,so they could work great in tandem.

There are some levels that we could give here, like, if you have the Kokori cog, you could use it on green or wooden or whatever switches, and open certain paths that way, once you have the Goron cog, you could open either red or metal or stone switches. This essentially makes it like the beams in metroid prime, that you would need a certain beam/cog to open certain doors, blocking progress without having advanced the plot.
Or, the cogs could give the spinner certain abilities depending on which cog you equipped. If you equip the Kokori cog, you could do a tornado, if you equip the Goron cog, you could either shoot fire or maybe interact with certain machines or stone. The Zola cog could make it rain or let you surf across water, or perhaps just a water attack.

Anyway, that was just an idea that occurred to me. I like giving end of the dungeon items functionality.


Also, as far as items, I'll actually go ahead and fill out some of those formats that MG suggested a while ago.
edit: I'll try to put these in the order I guess you'd get them/a logical order at least...


Proposed Spinner and Cogs

Spinner
Found in Hyrule Town

Press the button to board the spinner. You can zip around on it For a short period of time until your momentum runs out, allowing you to use it to make quick dashes to get away for things, but not to use it as a horse. It also works as a gear/cog to open some doors that had a particular indent in the floor, the same as twilight princess.
No requirements for use

Forest Cog
Found at the end of the Forest Dungeon

Equip it to the spinner to gain the ability to start small tornados. When equipped, hold down the spinner button to charge a tornado, and release it to release your twister. Tornados spin around the spinner, rather than going off on their own, because that doesn't really make sense...
Tornados can blow enemies away, like the gale seeds, or perhaps stuns them, but works around the radius of the spinner. Some puzzles activated by wind can be solved with these tornados, such as ones involving windmills getting started. Also, in certain places creating a tornado can spin you up to a higher level, like in TMC Wind Tribe Area.
Also, having this spinner equipped makes the spinner a little bit faster, in general.

Creating tornados uses a little magic?


Earth Cog
Found at the end of the Goron dungeon.

Equipping the Goron cog to the spinner and holding down the button charges a small earthquake. This stuns enemies in a larger radius around the spinner, and can kill some small ones. In certain situations, charging the spinning Goron cog causes some stones to rise or sink into the earth to create pathways, or sometimes causes metal to bend and create bridges.
Also, the spinner goes a little slower when this cog is equipped.

Creating earthquakes uses a little magic.


Ocean Cog
Found at the end of the water dungeon.

Equipping the Zora cog allows the spinner to charge up a water-based attack that can put out torches and fire enemies, as well as doing damage. The spinner with this cog equipped can also ride along special currents in the ocean and in rivers that flow too fast to swim. You can travel quickly and reach some inaccessible areas this way.
Also, when the water cog is equipped, the spinner can dash for a little longer before it runs out of momentum.

Shadow Cog
Obtained at the end of the sheikah dungeon.

Equipping the spinner with this cog and charging it would distort any nearby illusions and allow you to see through them, like bottom of the well type walls, or invisible platforms. Releasing a charged spin with the Cog of Truth would dispel any illusions and make the unseen visible for a short amount of time. It would also do some damage to enemies. And have a really cool animation.
The Sheikah cog either boosts your magic power while you're using it, or else makes it so when you use the spinner to dash quickly, you do a little deku nut teleport thing. The latter might not be a good idea...

Besides these functions, when each cog is equipped, you'd be able to open corresponding spinning locks. The forest cog could unlock wooden locks, the Goron one could do stone the Zora one could do... Water... Type locks. And the sheikah one would undo... Black colored locks. Those last two types of locks are sketchy, though.

Furthermore, it'd be cool if each cog ability was necessary in the final boss fight. You'd have one stage where you'd need to stun gannon with tornados, then you'd need to manipulate rocks he tries to use, then you'd have to put out flames he shoots, etc.


Also, I don't know if this counts as an item, but it's been mentioned that Link should learn thief skills from Ganon, one of them being tightrope walking. I did the same thing in my game as well, but I think this skill could be used to get into the first dungeon.
Functionality: when walking along a rope or other narrow space, you walk automatically in the direction, but must use the other directional arrows to keep your balance, like grinding in Tony Hawk. There could be a leaning meter, and if you lean too far, you fall.

Slingshot

Found in the deku forest, needed to access the forest dungeon.

Fires a deku seed when you press the button. Perhaps we could implement ember seeds and ice seeds like fire and ice arrows, especially if the bow upgrade is optional, but burning and freezing puzzles are not.

Must have deku seeds to use.

The slingshot can be used to hit enemies from afar, and is the most basic ranged weapon. It does minor damage to enemies. The projectiles can also be used to hit basic impact switches that are out of reach, eyeball switches, and when necessary, knock some hanging items down.


Bow and Arrows
Upgrade to Slingshot

Optional upgrade, found through side quest? Or else mandatory upgrade that is made necessary mainly through the increased range, or else the bow can trip switches the slingshot couldn't.

Functionality is the same as the slingshot, except it shoots arrows instead of deku seeds, and can facilitate the use of multiple types of arrows, fire, ice, etc

The main use of the bow would be making the slingshot a more powerful weapon, perhaps with more range or better aiming, and allowing fire and ice arrows to be used. Fire arrows could burn things, to light torches and open pathways blocked with wood. Ice arrows could freeze things to use as stepping stones, or freezing some things would make them breakable, for instance freezing a certain type of plant would make it so you could shatter it and get past.


Goron Drill
Found somewhere on the mountains, used to get onto the Goron mines.

The Goron drill would be a new face to the mole mitts, but function essentially the same. We could have a rapid tapping thing necessary, like how the spinner was spun in TP. This could drill through some walls that bombs couldn't do. However, bombs could take care of walls this couldn't handle. However, this seems a little redundant, maybe one or the other? The only way I can think to make this not gimmicky is if the drill came much later in the game, and could go through walls http at needed to be bombed as well as harder walls, and it could drill tunnels like the mole mitts, so you wouldn't have to lay bomb after bomb. Like how the megaton hammer kinds replaced bombs in OoT, but you still needed bombs for their timed and ranged capacity.

Bombs
Found in the goron area. Maybe found to get into the mines, instead if the drill, which seemed a little gimmicky. These could blow up any walls that needed to be destroyed, function the same as in other games.



Hookshot
Found in the forest temple, used first to traverse the forest canopy, going from tree to tree and branch to branch.

When you press the button, the shooting end extends on a chain from the grip. When the hook end hits your target, it stuns enemies and removes whatever power ups they might have, destroys some things like pots, latches and pulls in light objects, and drags link toward larger anchored objects it can attach to. The hookshot can drag you across gaps, activate switches if they're close enough and the right type, as well as be useful in combat.
A hookshot is used by one man in a port town as a tool to pull ships in to the docks, but was discontinued because it just kept pulling him into the sides of boats.




One last item that I would always like

Logbook
Found somewhere in Hyrule town
Equipment, accessible from the item screen. It keeps track of where things you've seen are. For instance, when you're playing and you're like, oh, I know I've seen one of those puzzles where you need magic beams to solve it! Uh, where was that? The logbook would have categories, such as spinner, slingshot, lightning rod or whatever, and looking in that category would display the map with the general location of puzzles you've already found, but haven't yet solves. Once you solved them, they'd have a little complete symbol.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: The gold chuchu on November 01, 2011, 12:51:51 am
thats perfect, donotfeedthemax. XD
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 01, 2011, 04:37:22 am
Haha, it's just Max, but thanks. I figure that post started to get really really long...
Anyway.

I was thinking, the only real original item we've got is the spinner, which isn't quite original, so perhaps we should focus on one or two or more of those. Perhaps based on the particular races we're using. Like, since we've got steam punk Gorons, I had the idea of a drill, but... It needs work so it can work with bombs. Unless we get rid of bombs, which is kind of a bad idea.
But definitely a sheikah item would be cool. I was thinking some kind of shadow cloak, that would allow you to phase through certain walls, and perhaps phase inTO certain statues, which you could then control, kinda like the command melody slash dominion rod combined with the magic cape from ALTTP. Also, when weaking it, you would be able to walk straight through enemies, or be invisible to them. it would use up plenty of magic, of course, so you couldn't be invincible.
That isn't TOO original, though.

Edit:
Also, about the hookshot, I had the idea that maybe it'd go better in the forest dungeon, as the item in that dungeon, and could be used to traverse the canopy of the Deku forest. The first half of the forest temple could be on the ground, and the second half above that, on the branches and canopy, utilizing the hookshot to get around from tree to tree. I think that would be an AWESOME dungeon, one in the treetops, and some of the rooms could be in hollow trees and on the top canopy. But that's just me, I'm not really in the dungeon group. I would just like to see the hookshot used that way. I think I'll go update the previous post to be about that instead of about boats.


 I thought, since we need to get into detail, that I'd go ahead and list out the items found randomly in pots, grass, under rocks, etc.

Items found randomly
Note that these items are found only once they're applicable to the hero, i.e., you don't find arrows before you have a bow. Also note that in rooms in dungeons that require a refillable item, such as ammo or magic, that particular item can be found in jars/pots in that room.

Hearts
Pick up a heart to replenish one heart of health.
Their rarity will depend on how difficult the enemies are, to balance it.

Rupees
Increments found randomly: 1, 5, and 20. Randomly finding a 20 is extremely rare, and those and increments higher than that are reserved for rewards.

Magic Jars
Small green bottles that replenish an increment of your magic meter. Small jars replenish like an eighth, maybe a quarter, big magic jars replenish it all.
Rarity would depend on how many items use magic, and how necessary they are, but fairly uncommon.
Rooms with puzzles requiring magic would have pot that definitely have magic jars in them.

Deku Seeds
Used as ammo for the slingshot. Found all over the place. Picking up one seed icon refills 5 seeds.

Ember Seeds
Used as a flaming projectile with the slingshot, can catch distant things on fire. Found on ember seed trees and fairly rarely in random places.

Ice Seeds
Used with the slingshot to freeze things. Found on ice seed trees and fairly rarely in random places.

Bombs
Found once you have a bomb bag. Uncommon. Explode things, etc... One bomb icon on the map replenishes 5 bombs.

Arrows
Found once you have the bow, can be used to shoot targets from afar. Picking up one bundle of arrows icon refills 5 arrows in your quiver.
One way to do this is to make it like WW, where you can use a regular arrow and fire it as a fire arrow. Each fire arrow would use up one arrow and a small amount of magic, same with ice arrows. This is unlike the seed system, where you have to find ember and ice seeds, which require no magic... So once you get a bow and arrows, that would be a change. I opt for the bow being optional, because it seems like it doesn't really change that much from a slingshot. TP had both, but you just stopped using the slingshot once you got the bow.

Secret Seashells
Found quite rarely, and sometimes as puzzle rewards. They are saved up for no apparent purpose until you find that they can be traded to upgrade some equipment in a secret out of the way seashell mansion type place. They should DEFINITELY not be used for some type of wagering game, though, because that was obnoxious. LA had it right with finding only 20 in the whole game, and getting a better sword, in my opinion.



So, anybody have other opinions, any feedback?

Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on November 02, 2011, 03:27:05 am
How about that the Shadow Clock transforms you into temporary objects? so you can hide from enemies and such? but in a funny way, like you transform into a statue of tingle, or into a statue of a Goron etc and you can use those statues to press switches on the ground, I like the drill idea, it could work not sure how haha.

Actually I like also the idea of the forest temple, sounds more original :D!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 02, 2011, 04:15:42 pm
So like the stone mask? which I thought looked pretty freaking comical. That's one idea, although, do you think the sheikah would create an item that was comical? They seem like such dark, serious people. They're interesting, they're shrouded in mystery, yet obsessed with the truth. They seem to know about everything, but don't reveal anything about themselves. What kind of item fits that, besides one that dispels illusion, because I've already assigned that to the shadow cog, unless you guys think it'd be better elsewhere.
We could go with items we've seen Sheik have, needles, whip, dagger, but... How would those be different from items we already have, arrows, hookshot, sword... I think focusing on their penchant for shadows, secrecy, truth, or history will give us the best item to assign to the sheikah tribe. Also, if the sheikah dungeon is the last cog, then the item there should be awesome and useful in battle besides puzzles. Most games don't have much to do with the sheikah, so if KoT does, it will stand out so we have to make that part especially awesome, I think. Which is why I'm thinking the Shadow Cloak can let you control specific statues, because they could be powerful and kick ass in battle, create interesting puzzles, mysterious, and you could also have an element of sneaking involved in the shadow cloak too, which is very sheikah.

Also, here's how, at the moment, I think the Goron drill could work. You get bombs early in the game, in Hyrule Town. When You get into the Goron dungeon and find the drill, it could do one of two things.
1) it replaces the bombs, and can drill through bomb walls as well as special walls that are basically the same as mole mitt walls, or 2) It doesn't replace bombs because it can't drill through those walls, it can only drill through mole mitt walls. I think since bombs and mole mitts weren't redundant the way they worked in Minish Cap, the second way is the way to do it.
Here's my new proposal:

Bombs
Found in Hyrule Town, early in the game.

Pressing the button draws out a bomb, and you hold it over you head. Pressing the button again sets the bomb down, pressing the action button throws it (presuming the item and A buttons are different, like in OoT and not OoX. Same as you'd expect.

Goron Drill
Found in the Goron Mines

Pressing the button will whip out the drill and drill the tile in front of you. If there is an enemy there, it will do a good amount of damage, more than the sword. If there is a drill-able wall/rock in front of you, you will reduce it to rubble. After drilling, you pause for a second while the spinning of the drill slows down. If you want to drill through a lot, like if you're going through a mole mitt style area, you can rapidly tap on the button and the drill will spin in place for a second, and then you will drill in a straight line until you stop tapping on the button or run into something you can't drill. This function works the same way Pegasus boots do, but instead of running fast, you're drilling through specific type of rock, or enemies.
Certain walls and areas can only been traversed by drilling through them with the Goron Drill, and certain enemies can only be defeated with it as well.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: . on November 06, 2011, 07:12:06 pm
I like the idea of the Goron drill. It seems like it would work like a mix between Pegasus boots and the mole mits.

I don't particularly like the idea of the spinner. I don't think it would work well in a 2D game.

I also think the slingshot (if used at all) should be separate from the bow and arrow. It might make more sense to have the slingshot upgrade to the scattershot (from skyward sword) and the bow and arrow to upgrade to light arrows or fire and ice arrows.

Some items that might be good to have are the shovel, the magnetic gloves, the hookshot, and of course the usual items like bombs etc.

Building off the idea of a Sheihah item, what about the Lens of Truth? It's rather mysterious and resembles the Sheikah eye.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 06, 2011, 09:05:53 pm
Well, as far as the slingshot / bow, then I think we should pick one or the other. I felt like in OOX, the slingshot was the same as the bow in TCM, except with more ammo options. So my feelings are that that using both without them being an upgrade is redundant. I'd say nix to the slingshot and just go for the bow with upgrades in the form of fire and ice arrows, or else if we want to be a little more original, not that the slingshot is original, just used less, go with that and ember and ice seeds.
Personally, I'm down for the slingshot, no bow. Other opinions?

And the spinner would, I suppose, need to be tested, but I think it would work well, with its main functions being unlocking doors, so as a progress pacer kind of thing, and as a really cool dash function. We've always had rolling, but this would be faster and further, and kind of go along with the agile thief thing we've got going on. Then its secondary functions would be the cog abilities, which I feel are tantamount to the medallions of ALTTP, ether, bombos, etc.
So although I am a little biased because I came up with the idea, I think the spinner could work well. The question is, is the items team so small that if two people differ, we're at an impasse? Haha, we can work it out. Why do you think it wouldn't work well in 2D?

About the lens of truth, that could work. I think it works alright in 2D, as much as it does in 3d, anyway. Personally, I never liked it because it was always ALMOST optional, because the game would work fine without it, you could technically still get through, it was just like one or two spots that were too hard to navigate invisible stuff. It annoyed me a little bit, and didn't actually DO anything, just showed you why you kept falling down the damn holes under the well.

Also, yeah, those shovel, magnetic gloves, etc are good items to have, but at this point, we should elaborate and be more specific, when do you think the player should get them, what functions would they have, and the like?
I'm just one member of the items team, so this definitely needs other people's input, but here's how I'm feeling about the major items.
There should be about two per area of the game, that is, Deku Forest, Goron Mtns. According to the current design info page, they go Hyrule Town, Deku, Zora, Goron, Sheikah/Gerudo. Here's my idea about the major items, and why.

Hyrule Town: Spinner, bombs- the spinner because if others like this idea, it'll get upgrades after every dungeon, so it needs to be received early. The bombs because the Goron drill has a similar function so they shouldn't be received in proximity.

Kokiri Forest: slingshot, hookshot. The slingshot because it's a forestry item, and leaving the player without a projectile weapon for too long is pretty limiting. Hookshot because it'll be used to traverse the canopy and trees in the forest dungeon.

Zora Domain: Blue tunic breathing thing, ??? Breathing for use in the presumably partially under water water dungeon, and I don't have any ideas for which item would be most useful in this dungeon.

Goron mountains: Magnetic Gloves, Goron Drill. The gloves because Gorons are associated with metal and earth, so magnetic gloves could have MANY applications here, I think, climbing walls, manipulating switches and stuff, moving around like the iron boots in TP maybe? I might be thinking a little too 3D. And the Goron drill for obvious reasons.

That's what I've got so far, I'll edit this when I get more ideas later. Opinions? Especially about the spinner, I really like the idea, but it'd be pretty major since it keeps being upgraded, so if more than one other person doesn't like it, it should probably go down. Not like I don't care what you think Jimn, it's just that right now the vote is one to one. Well, I don't know which way the golden chu chu and Kren feel, although they didn't express any aversion.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: . on November 07, 2011, 01:20:39 am
I think it would make the most sense for the spinner to come from the Goron Mountains since it's mechanical, but this would conflict with the upgrades. We would also need to have a reason for the spinner to be a special item. One upgrade would be normal, but more than that would make it stand out. Maybe it could have one upgrade and that upgrade could be in the Goron mountains. You may need it because of new switches it doesn't fit.

I think you're right about the different areas. Each should have two items, but do you think that some should be item upgrades or those should be in addition to two items from each area? It's really tempting to have a lot of items because it's hard to choose, but then many have similar functions.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 07, 2011, 05:08:58 pm
About the spinner in regards to upgrades, I use the term upgrades, but it's not quite what I mean. The spinner is more like the Ocarina of Time, in that you get it and it can initially do one thing, but throughout the game you get different items (songs/cogs) that allow the initial item (spinner/ocarina) more functions. So if we go through with this, the spinner would have the same amount of importance as the Ocarina in regards to functionality. In regards to plot importance, we could vary it totally. It could be mentioned as the legendary spinner which the hero of legend will use to stop Gannon, or mentioned as this item being shipped from Goron Mountain to the castle, which Link happened to steal and it comes in handy for him, but it's just an item some Goron built.
It's like the bow, it's not exceptional and doesn't technically get any upgrades, but you find fire, ice, and light arrows.
So I don't exactly mean upgrades, just that the spinner works with the cogs you get at the end of each dungeon to give them in-game functionality.

Also, as for being from Goron City, it doesn't have to be IN Goron city to be from Goron city. It can just be traveling from there, like, being shipped, or with a Goron merchant.

As for upgrades, some could factor in to the two for each area, but only if they significantly change the functionality of the item so it can solve more and different puzzles. Like, getting a bigger bomb bag, no, that shouldn't count. It'd be disappointing and wouldn't change much, but going from the Roc's feather to the Roc's cape would, because it changes the functionality of the item, in the way and distance you jump, you can do different things with it.

Furthermore, back to the lens of truth, the other reason I don't like it is because if we go with this cogs with functionality idea, the lens of truth's function would be covered by that. But besides that, any other sheikah items? Also, how do you feel about the little item order I noted in that last post: spinner, slingshot/bow, hookshot, breathing item, ???item in water temple, magnetic gloves, Goron drill.

Also, here's my item write up thing for my idea of a sheikah cloak.

Shadow Cloak
Found in the Sheikah dungeon
Pressing the button puts on the cloak. Pressing it again takes it off. When the shadow cloak is on, you are invisible to enemies, but can't use your sword or other items. You can walk through enemies and certain walls and objects (which are only illusions). Furthermore, you can walk into certain statues, and if you take the cloak off while inside the statue, you can control it, similar to the dominion rod.
Using the cloak consumes a lot of magic. Or maybe just some magic.

Notes: The walls you can walk through which are illusions are impassible without the shadow cloak, because your mind is so convinced of their existence that it psychosomaticaly won't move through them. We could also do something like this with an enemy that doesn't really exist, some kind of sheikah wraith that is only an illusion, but since your mind is convinced of its existence, your body takes damage anyway. That might be cool.

Also, the statues you can control: they're special statues made by ancient sheikah. When you're controlling them, you can hop around like how statues do with the dominion rod or command melody, and pressing the action button makes the statue do their attack. Perhaps different statues have different attack functions, some can knock down walls, others can crush enemies, etc. like how there were different statues in Twilight Princess that could do different things, some attacked, others were just platforms.


So, what do you guys think?

Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on November 07, 2011, 06:10:23 pm
Seems like you two are the only two active in the items group, so it appears to be just you two!  I'll jump in then to provide some assistance until someone else jumps on :P

I like this spinner idea a lot.  It will definitely open up A LOT of new possible puzzle types.  It's also quite a nice extension to the lens of truth, regarding the shadow cog.  Of course as with anything new, it's something that needs to be prototyped and play tested.  I also assume we're going for a linear dungeon flow.  This needs to be taken into consideration for puzzles since the cogs will essentially effect which dungeons you're able to go to.

As for the item order, I absolutely agree that the spinner with this kind of functionality should be the first item.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: . on November 08, 2011, 02:06:23 am
We seem to be making progress!

I really like the idea of the Shadow Cloak, though being invisible to enemies in addition to the other qualities may be a bit too much. I think just statues and walls is enough for this item. We don't want it to make the gameplay too easy. The item order also makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on November 08, 2011, 02:27:23 am
If we do implement the cloak, it can always be limited.  We can draw some inspiration from the TF2 spy if needed!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 08, 2011, 03:06:11 am
On the topic of the Shadow Cloak, you could do something along the lines of a "Mask of Truth" + "Invisible Cloak" type of ordeal. Have it be a, inverts illusions, makes you invisible, but makes other traps, otherwise undetectable, such as certain enemies, a threat. If there were a ghosty-esque enemy, just for example, that you could only see, and would only attack you while you wore it, but you had to wear it to get through a tricky, illusion filled dungeon, that might present an interesting challenge. (Wow, I just now actually read that bit, DoNotFeed xD, great minds think alike, no?)

The goron drill appeals to me, but that would mean you'd either end up with a Pkmn Mystery Dungeon esque, "Imma dig holes through all this dirt" or it would feel incredibly limited in use, imo.

I think the bow should definitely be a core item, perhaps no slingshot, but definitely the bow. I wouldn't do a, "We're gonna have Fire Arrows, Ice Arrows, Light Arrows, Normal Arrows, A Slingshot, a Slingshot that shoots Deku Nuts, whatever. I'd personally do 3 arrow types, and screw the slingshot. Ie, Normal, Fire, Ice, what have you.

I have so many good ideas that I'm currently using for someone elses Zelda fan game, and I wish I could divulge here, the Maks of Lies being one of them, but you'd already mentioned something like that, and I would love to give you all the details, but I'm under confidence. I'll keep an eye on this more closely, I just skimmed it a minute ago, and see if I get any ideas.

Oh, and hey, I'm back!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 08, 2011, 03:35:40 pm
Dark Hylian, well, first, it's just Max, haha, and second, I'm totally with you about the bow/slingshot, I don't think both would work either, I just picked slingshot because it's used less than the bow. But that's probably because the bow is cooler. So let's just change the slingshot to the bow.

As for the limitations of the shadow cloak, I figured invisibility to some because it's a sheikah item, and therefore has to do with stealth and secrecy, not just passing through walls, because you can do that with bombs, too. That's another thing I kind of worry about, that it'll just be like, there are some walls you bomb through, some you drill through, and some you use the shadow cloak to get through. I don't want it to be, here's a dead end, which type of wall is this? So that functionality of the shadow cloak shouldn't be stressed, I don't think, and more stress should be out on how it interacts with illusions.
It puts you in the realm on illusion, which means that some illusions manifest themselves, for example, invisible chests and doors, and walls show that they're actually fake. But also, some wraiths inhabit this realm, and attack you only when you're in it.
The boss of the sheikah dungeon could be like this, a boss that looks kind of like Gomess or whatever from Stone Tower Temple. A wraith that shifts back and forth between the realm of illusion and the realm of the living, and you've got to follow him through these shifts with the shadow cloak. The only way to damage him when he's in one of the realms is with the statues you control. Like that big spider boss from the dominion rod dungeon in Twilight Princess.
Anyway, my other thought on this is that there should be some sweet animation of Link spinning the shadow cloak around him and putting it on, then turning partially invisible or something as a little shockwave thing goes out from around him altering things that are illusions. Or maybe that'd be too much if you have to out it on and take it off a lot.
Also, the cloak should totally look like the one Zelda wears in Twilight Princess.

Oh, but the point I was going to make about the shadow cloak to begin with before I got sidetracked by ideas is that maybe it shouldn't make you invisible to all enemies, especially animal enemies should still be able to see you, but I think it should make you invisible to people or at least some more human enemies, like guards maybe? Perhaps you have to do some sneaking in Gerudo valley once or twice, but then if you want to go back, instead of having to go through the same old motions over and over, you could put on the shadow cloak and just walk through. It does use up lots of magic, though...

Also, Dark Hylian, I think that the Drill would only feel as limited in use as the mole mitts did in MC. They were fairly useful in lots of spots, because the mole caves were all over the overworld. I think that's a lot of how items seem important, in by having puzzles and secret places in the overworld that make use of items you get and use a lot in a specific dungeon. You know what I'm sayin'?

Finally, I don't know if this is entirely up the item group's alley, but the chests in which you receive rupees should DEFINITELY have the function where you put the money back if you can't carry it. I don't know how many times in Wind Waker I'd have a full wallet, do some crazy puzzle, and be rewarded with 200 rupees that go entirely to waste. Or maybe we could do something where if you find more money than you can carry, it gets teleported to the bank. There could even be some comical scene where if the banker is tingle or that one eye Poe guy, they could balloon/teleport next to you can say, I see you can't hold that much money, why don't I take it off your hands? And then presumably they'd go and invest in something shady.
Or we could just make it so you could carry thousands of rupees. The problem is when you find lots of rupees but don't spend many and then waste lots when you're rewarded with them. That needs to be fixed, I think. Again, maybe not entirely related to items, but I dunno.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on November 08, 2011, 03:42:39 pm
Dark-Hylian, are you interested in hopping onto this group?  If so, I can pull out of it and focus on getting the dungeons group back on track!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 08, 2011, 09:58:43 pm
MG, sure thang. I'm a tad busy, but I'll dish out my 2 cents whenever I have them, and you'd probably be more useful in the dungeon design.

@ Max: I know what you mean, especially the money bit; also I find it a bit funny, but in the game I'm helping with, the goal is to have each item be universally useful, and not limited to a dungeon, which is something to consider. But anyways. I don't like the idea of three methods of wall-bashing. In the game I'm working on, there are two, one of which is bombs, the other is a replacement melee (used instead of sword and shield) item, and two is definitely enough. The cloak however,  should be something like, there are places where its meant to be used, and perhaps have it not drain magic power while you're in say, a shadowy corner. The presence of these spots in the overworld would indicate some use that it would have, ie, sneaking past gerudos or guards as you say. I like the idea of not completely invisible, but either way, if you bump into an enemy, they should be able to like, react.

Chests should definitely have a "Total Money Contained" system, where you could take as much as you could hold out; this might even allow for mutliple objects from one chest, if people wanted to go there (which is not something I'd look for in a zelda game, but isn't out of the question."

Also, have there been any Equipment such as tunics or boots suggested?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 09, 2011, 01:49:52 am
So, I started to write up another edition of the Shadow Cloak item, but I think it'd be better if you wrote one up. Like the format I've been doing is:
Name
Where found
What happens when you press the button, precisely, does something else happen if you hold to button.
Applications
Restrictions, such as MP consumption.

What I'm seeing with the shadow cloak right now is a lack of a main function. Does it make you invisible or not? Is the main function going to be interacting with statues, or is that less important? Is the main thing to interact with illusions?

Also, slightly new take on the cloak, we could call it the Illusion Cloak, or keep it shadow cloak, they're both cool, and say the main function is that you take on the qualities of an illusion? For example, the statues you control could, perhaps, not actually move, but rather when you control them you give the illusion of movement to them? Actually, I don't know how that would work, really. This is probably the most undeveloped idea I've posed so far, but you know, just trying to brainstorm.
I do kind of think that the best way to do it would be to take the theme of illusions and run with that for the cloak. It would also create a theme for the sheikah dungeon, with you gaining the cloak of illusion and using it to eventually get the cog of truth. I mean, they don't have to be called that, but...


Other thoughts I've been thinking include that perhaps the magnetic gloves could be the main item of the Zora dungeon. Then, the item you get before entering the Goron Mines would be the power bracelet, which allows you to lift heavier items than you could before. The question would be, if we used the power bracelet, would it work like OOX, where it's a button item, or MC/OoT, where you can just lift heavier things than you could before. Personally, I'd opt for MC style, because it was always really annoying to have to switch items to the power bracelet just to pick up a pot. Or, a new idea I just had would be that the power bracelet is equippable to different things: your arms would allow you to lift things, the bow would shoot further, your sword would do more damage, etc. I don't know of this is a good idea, though. I wouldn't use it, if it were me.

Also, since nobody else had any other suggestions for items, I was thinking Roc's feather/cape (my favorite item) could be the item you get to enter the sheikah dungeon. It's familiar, but agile like the sheikah.
Also, I was thinking that an alternative to that would be the item you get before entering the sheikah dungeon could be the fire and ice arrows, probably found by infiltrating the Gerudo fortress or whatever they have.

Or/also, I had a thought about the spinner since people were talking about jumping around of roofs earlier, which I don't think would work very well in 2D Zelda unless there was a separate map with close together roofs, that when you were on a roof, you would use the spinner's dash like function to go over ramps that could jump you to the next roof. That way, the places where you jump could be controlled from where, to where, and how far. Of course, this is a little weird, but what do you think?
And also, the jumping thing could be accomplished by only allowing Link to jump from roof to roof by climbing on stacks of boxes or what have you and jumping only from there. After all, jumping from too low means you wouldn't have the height necessary to make the distance.


Anyway, in regards to equipment, nobody's said anything. I mentioned a breathing water thing for the Zora dungeon, but didn't specify. It could be flippers, and honestly, I think that might work best. Equipment such as boots and tunics hasn't really played a part in 2D games, other than Pegasus boots, which don't really function as equipment in this sense. We could do red and blue tunics, but I don't think that's really necessary, and would require a lot more sprites. The only point of those tunics was to limit access to certain areas, and we can limit it other ways, probably more easily.

So I think as far as equipment is concerned, we're only looking at things like power bracelets, flippers, and maybe some items that increase defense, like the tunics in ALTTP did.
Which kind of morphs into another topic for discussion, which is the flippers or whatever, what should those be. I think a lot of it depends on whether or not you can swim at all without them. Here's my idea, I'll presume that you can't swim without them, but of you could then they'd just allow the dive feature, like OOA's mermaid suit.

Flippers
Given to you by the Zoras in order to rescue more royalty/get into the Zora dungeon.
Equipment, not a press the button item.
Once you have the flippers, you can swim and dive. Swimming is standard Zelda, you blub blub along, press the action button to dash, b button to dive. Diving in shallow water lets you dodge enemies. But diving in certain deep waters lets you enter another under water map, like OOX and pokemon's HM dive.

The under water parts could be either side scrolling or like other maps, or perhaps some of both. Personally, I'm all for being able to use your sword while diving, but not swimming, both on side scrolling maps as well as top down under water maps. Most other items wouldn't work; however, some would.

Opinions?
Also, sorry for the absurdly long posts.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: . on November 09, 2011, 04:29:58 am
I agree that all items should have one, main function. I think it might make more sense to have one item that makes you invisible to enemies and another that controls statues. How do you like this idea?

Shadow Cloak

The Something Flute

The idea is definitely a WIP, but I could see it work.

I agree about the flippers, power bracelet, and rupees.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 10, 2011, 04:08:10 am
So my thinkings on getting this organized would be: all item suggestions have to fill out a form xD This cuts down on the ammount of items that won't work, or are potential, leaving only those with a good solid basis. For example (totally fake):

Name: Bombs / Bomb-bag

Where / How Obtained: The bombs are obtained in the Goron Mines dungeon, after beating the mini-boss, Tottoringo. When he is defeated, a chest appears containing a Small Bomb-bag, which holds up to 20 bombs. From that point forward, any bombs the player collects, from chests, bushes, shops, monsters etc, are able to be stored in the bomb-bag for later use. They are purchasable from these vendors: Bilbo in Mordor, Darth Vader in Death Star, and Paul in Dune.

Primary Use: The bombs are used mainly as an explosive, which allows the player to blow open cracked walls and destroy boulders. They are also used as a mass-attack weapon. Their explosion can injure and cause knock-back to any enemy it touches, making it useful for dispatching hordes of smaller baddies, or dealing a hefty blow to a stronger one.

Secondary Uses: As bombs are able to be lifted and thrown or placed, they can be used to briefly hold down switches, for example, so that the player can get through a gate, and then when the bomb explodes, the gate closes behind them, perhaps opening another. They are also able to light certain torches and braziers, when placed carefully nearby.

Other Notes: The bomb-bag can be upgraded in size, from 20, to 50, to 99, throughout the course of the game, by methods such as mini-games or sidequests (Do another report for each upgrade too!).



Hopefully, if an adequate report could be filled out for each item, then the examining process would be a lot easier. That way, it wouldn't be a matter of guessing, to determine what exactly it would do, or where you would get it. And each item could also have an updatable, official "bio" page, perhaps all in one post, where CONCRETE changes to their report and description are applied. This "bio" would include WHERE you get it / get more of it, WHEN you get it - in the whole grand scheme of things, WHAT it does, as well as WHY you need it, and HOW it works. If these can be answered, the task then simply becomes, which ones would work, and which ones wouldn't.

---------------

Okay. That's done. Anywho, I don't like the idea of a power bracelet applied to more than one thing, but that's just me xD Also, the spinner thing, with like, upgrades, sounds a bit weird to me, but again, just my opinion. Jimn, I like the format, and the ideas, but personally, my absolute, 100% least favorite item in the whole zelda series to date, was the Dominion Rod. Not to shoot down a possesion type item, I'm just saying that it would need to be a whole lot more... entertaining and worthwhile. It could be done, and done well, it would just take some thought.
My personal idea for the MAIN FUNCTION, in like, 3 words, for the Shadow-Illusion Object, is "Reversed Illusions".

I suggest the following:

Stealth: Link is able to move without detection, possibly at a reduced movement speed, or loss of the use of other items.
Illusion "Switch": Link is now able to see and detect many hidden traps, and ghostly enemies; however, (a la Dumbledore, HP1) this power causes him to become less aware of normal, mundane traps. (This would be fun to implement, doing things like perhaps blurring holes and spikes, making enemies and obstacles less opaque, kind of reversing the ghostly feel, as if he's stepped out of life, and into a ghost realm.)
Cost: The cloak would definitely have some draw-back, be it gradual magic drain, necessity to keep to the shadows, sort of like Phantom Hourglass's safe-zones, greatly reduced movement speeds, lack of other item use, ruppee drain, I don't know. That could be decided.

Those are just my three points on how the thing should operate. In a word, it switches Links perception, giving him sight of ghosts and illusions, but detatching himself from the more corporeal objects and obstacles.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: . on November 11, 2011, 03:19:38 am
I think too much thought is being put into one item. The Shadow Cloak should be simple as any item. It would be much easier to implement and not too strange to the player. We wouldn't want there to be so many rules about its use that the player has to try to remember them. We also don't want so many limitations that the player is better off without the cloak. I really think it would be best if the cloak made you invisible to enemies (though getting close some could hear you) but unable to use items.

The possession item I think would have a very different purpose from the Dominion Rod. It would function similarly, but have different statues. In TP, statues were basically only used as weights and occasionally hammers. KoT would have a variety of statues with various abilities. Here are some ideas:

There could be a lot more, and they could be used in puzzles. I think that would be really interesting.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 11, 2011, 04:20:17 am
About the item write up style, I agree with the detail of that format, although I can't say how we'll work out the details of things like who would sell bombs when nothing else about the game has been defined except that there are bombs, haha. I think perhaps that should be a different topic, where we post the results of this topic in a main post, the agreed upon items. So once we have items we agree upon, we'll agree upon the exact write up and then post it in the other topic.

On a couple minor things, Dark Hylian, I don't like the idea of equipping the power bracelet to different areas either, it was just an idea. Scrapped?
Also, I still like the idea of the spinner being given a little plot significance (like, the Gorons built this, it was under stewardship of the royal family when Link stole it), and then working as a vessel to allow the dogs to function as items. I just really want to cogs to do something other than... Allow you to go to the next dungeon. If you feel this way, and can think of a better way to implement it, by all means, pitch an idea, even if it sucks. The more ideas, even if they suck, the better.
My rational for choosing the spinner as an item that can facilitate the cog's use as real items that do something is primarily their shape- they're both gear shaped. I was thinking you could steal the unassuming spinner at first, and it's kinda handy, but you don't realize what it is you've stolen, until later you find out, after gaining the first cog, that the reason the royal family had it in the first place was because it was related to the cogs.

Well, anyway.

So, no offense Jimn, don't think I'm just shooting you don't because I don't like the dominion rod, but I still don't like the idea of it, even if it had more statues. Because the dominion rod wasn't just limited by how many types of statues there were, it was the fact that all it did was control one specific thing, and had no other uses. You could use it in battle, and it only solved very specific puzzles. Not like an item like the bow or hookshot, which have many applications in battle and lots of types of puzzles.

But where the dominion rod was going, controlling statues, that had potential, if it was more than just that. So I combined it with an invisibility cloak kind of thing, because it was sheikah stuff. But then it was illusions and stuff too, and it got out of hand. But on their own, invisibility cloaks and dominion rods are kind of useless. I'm not dismissing the dominion rod, but... It needs to be more.
What about if we had some kind of 'charge' rod, that was a combination of dominion and cane of piccai? It could send out a charged energy wave which has different effects- still as simple as any item, press the button to shoot a wave, but it's effects are as myriad some Zelda items like bombs, it could power up some lights or statues, it could flip things that can't hold a charge and are therefore sort of overloaded by it. Because these items, dominion and piccai, in my opinion, suffer from a statues of "is that ALL it does?" this item, however, doesn't really fit with the sheikah dungeon as well as the Shadow Cloak. Not that it really has to, I guess (boomerang in Jabu Jabu? Hover boots in shadow temple? Of course, I HATED getting the hover boots in the shadow temple...)

What I'm thinking now is because the cloak was actually just one idea I gave for example that was expounded upon, does anybody have any other ideas for a sheikah item? If so, we could probably use more to work with. Besides limiting ourselves to, how could this work, go back to, what could work?

With the new ideas thing being said, I am quite fond of the blurring effect that highlights illusions that dark Hylian suggested. it's sort of like how the one ring happened, at least in the movies, all the surroundings got blurry and moving, and the Wraiths took on a whole different form, which I interpreted as their true form. This is how I'm picturing the shadow cloak. It's hard to see enemies, but they don't see you. You can't see holes, however, you do see the truth of things, so you can interact with illusions that way. We'll need to define what illusions would be like that you could interact with, though. I was thinking making some invisible things visible, like chests and platforms, maybe doors. Sheikah Wraiths (this ghostlike enemy we've been alluding to). The hard part is making things that manifest their true nature, in other words, stuff that looks like different stuff, not gimmicky, and practical. Probably showing the bosses weak spot and stuff, but not sure how it'd apply to regular gameplay. How would we use this item in Hyrule field, or a little cave with 50 rupees in it?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 11, 2011, 05:37:06 pm
I agree wholeheartedly that all of the cogs should be applied to an item, and there's an idea for the Power Bracelet. Have it literally be a Power-up Gauntlet (that you stole from the treasure room, cuz its like... gold.), where you attatch a cog, and can use its power. I don't know what the powers are, but perse, like, an "Impact" one. When you used the Gauntlet with that cog in, either to attack or when you swung your sword or something, have it do more damage, maybe more knockback. Whatever. I think they should either be equippable or applied. For example, if the Gauntlet were the Bow in TP: You could equip the Bombs to it, you could equip the hawk-eye to it, etc. It should probably be a passive effect, like the Hover Boots etc, which I agree, were a stupid thing to get in a shadow dungeon. I also think the cogs should do more interesting things than just, upgrade you. Perhaps an "Air Cog" gave you a jump button or something, like, not just "Make Link Invincible!!!" effects, give them a purpose. If a cog gave Link the ability to lift a larger rock, or to Swim, if you don't want flippers /dive if you dont want diving originally, those would open up a HUGE array of areas and features that could be added. Each one could have a general effect, and a status effect kind of things: "Blue Cog" gives Link the ability to swim and dive. It also gives all of Links damaging attacks a chance to restore Magic Power. Stuff like that. That way, it wont feel like, "Oh, I'm using this to beat this dungeon, then wont ever see it again until the final one." You would use it all the time, if you enjoy just using magic arrows, or stuff of that sort. I could come up with plenty of ideas.

As for the "Dominion Rod", I have an idea. Do you remember the Switch Hook from OO(S I think it was)? Perhaps, you could have this.

Name: Switch Rod

Where / How Obtained: This item is a reward from a quest, before a dungeon that involves its use, as well as the White Cog and other items to complete. Blah de blah.

Primary Use: The Switch Rod "fires" a ball of energy, and when that energy hits, Link warps to the spot on which it landed, at the cost of a large ammount of magic energy. This does not work through walls, etc, only through open air. However, if the ball of energy hits something such as a pot, or rock that Link can lift and place ordinarily, not counting enemies, he and the object will switch places. This can be used to traverse gaps.

"Secondary" Uses: Not really a secondary function, but a major addition to the first. While Link can use it to "Warp" or "Transfer", as we'll call it, to a different spot, replacing what ever was there first, he can fire it at a WIDE array of statues, as well as some enemies. If the ball of energy hits the statue, Link won't warp to it, but will be able to control the statue; each type of statue will have a distinguishing feature, whether they are able to be stood upon, can break certain gates, or are heavy enough to stop obstacles such as "Rolling Spike Logs". These features depend on the statue. While Link is controlling the statue, he is unable to move, as the Statue becomes the new controller object, and trying to move Link moves the statue.

Other Notes: This effect does not consume Magic Power until the process is complete, so if you try something clever, and it doesn't work, you wont lose Magic, you just have to have the appropriate ammount before attempting it. As well, certain enemies could potentially be controlled, ie, Armos, or other Machine / Statue esque baddies. As well, transfering to a new spot does not displace the enemies there, and they are able to attack you.

If we could get an effective system working, I feel like this could have a few really cool implements, allowing Link to jump across pits that would otherwise be inaccesable, or to maneuver statues to his bidding. However, it would have to have sufficient, unparalleled use for Warping, not Transfering. Otherwise, it would just turn into a nuisance, like the Dominion Rod. He would have to be able to warp effectively, and make it ACTUALLY useful, especially if he is given a jump button. Perhaps if it were also able to be used on certain tiles, allowing for it to switch between different rooms. OR - new idea just occured - Link actually controls the shot, which flies above the ground, and when you press the button again, it tries to warp you. That way, you could use like, Orb Holes to warp to different rooms, like the Piccori holes in Minish Cap. Just a thought.

Edit-

Oh the cloak, yes. It is very much like the One Ring. Perhaps a malevolent miniboss esque creature could prowl around, and scare the bajeebers out of you until you get this - buffed up poes? and then once you have it you could fight it, instead of having to avoid and run. It would probably be more use in the civilized areas, as Sheikah probably had a hand in their construction, so if like, the Castle had a basement, that led into a catacomb, where the Sheikah Temple was, you could do a buttload of exploring there, as well as in other, like, Ikana-esque areas, if we have them.

The sheikah wraiths or whatever could be just, like, wandering around, one per area you havn't conquered yet and whatnot. ^
And, at night, ghosts could come out, or, totally ripping the Shadowgazer off here, people could like, turn into ghosties and ghoulies, when they're having a bad dream / their area is still corrupted / messed up / in twilight. I figure it would be sort of like "Sensing" as a wolf, but when you do, you're invisible to the stuff that you're not "sensing" ie, poe would see you, cat would not. etc.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 11, 2011, 07:34:23 pm
Well, for what the cogs do, I don't think it should be as general as an "impact" one that adds power to some items. That seems to much like a stats booster thing, which is kinda un-zelda. If you go back to the fourth page of this topic, I posted some proposed ideas, which I'll briefly outline. The attacks were all done by equipping the cog to the spinner, like how fire/ice arrows were equipped to the bow in OoT, and holding the spinner button to charge briefly to use the cog's attacks. They all used up some MP to attack.

Forest Cog - makes tornadoes which stun enemies or blow them away, and also boot you up in specific places (like some tornadoes in MC's cloud tops). Also makes the spinner move faster.

Ocean Cog - This one I was kind of unsure of. It made some kind of water attack, I guess. Also, when equipped, it allowed the spinner to traverse currents you couldn't swim through without drowning, to get you to inaccessible places. Also makes the spinner's dashes last longer.

Stone Cog - Causes an earth quake which stuns or damages enemies, also raises or lowers specific rocks/earth, to allow you access to areas. Also slows the spinner.

Shadow Cog - Causes an attack that stuns/damages enemies as well as temporarily dispels illusions, like the lens of truth would do. Can't remember what effect this cog had on the spinner's movement...

So I thought they'd be cool if they worked with the spinner, but honestly, they would be like the medallions of ALTTP and just work on their own, as independent items. One issue we may run into, but I'm sure could overcome, is relating the cog's abilities to the respective dungeon would mean you wouldn't get that power until you'd finished that dungeon. So making the cog allow Link to swim, and then getting it after the water dungeon, well it seems like a waste, because Link wouldn't be able to do things in water until after he'd gone through a water dungeon designed around the fact that he couldn't swim while going through it. That's why the abilities I chose were kind of like bonuses. They didn't make useless any other items because of their power, or even give you too much power, but could be useful in a few puzzles for some bonuses, and gave you some advantages.


So anyway, about this dominion-ish rod, unless you're opposed to having the hookshot in the first dungeon to move around on the canopy, etc, then having a switchhook AND hookshot seems... redundant. The switchhook (OoA, by the way, haha, they're some of my favorite Zeldas : ) was basically a different version of the hookshot that had a little more strategy along with it when it was used, but less situations in which it could be used. I think the fewer situation outweighed the increased strategy a lot.
Personally, I think some important Japanese guy either doesn't like the hookshot or else is on a mission to improve it, because it's seem a few other incarnations that seem to be testing how it could be different in any other way, being the switch hook, grappling hook (which was different enough to be it's own thing), and clawshot.

Of course, if you'd rather not use the hookshot... well, I'll argue with you, haha. I really like it, it's one of my favorite items of all.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 11, 2011, 10:32:29 pm
Points you have there. I agree that a warping tool would probably kill the hookshot, which I'm not okay with, hookshot for definate, anyways, I have some Cog theories.

First: Cogs should either be used as a single item (Dins Fire, Nayrus Love, all separate, single items) or equipped to use with a control object, ie, equip one and use a spinner or whatnot to activate.

Second: I don't really understand why the spinner would be used at all. Aside from the fact that yes, it looks like a gear, it doesn't really click with me. I feel that something more "related" to a King of Theives setting would be appropriate, I don't know, a Gauntlet, or maybe even the Shield he uses. I don't think riding around on a mechanical object that is just a slightly longer Roll is worth it, when the powers of the upgrade would be usable by a different Item. Or, even bind the equipped Cog to the "Attack" button, you know, in OOT, whenever you'd roll it'd say Attack instead of Roll? Have the power be bound to that, or something.

Third: What the cogs do now make them sound more like weapons than useful tools. Aren't they the Key to the Clock? I feel as if they should be less "Imma beat you with a Cog" and more, "Win, I can use this to get to _____ now! or I can beat _____ with this!" Plus, the Shadow cog needs to be reworked if we're using the cloak.

Cog Ideas: (Assume they're all bound to a the "Attack" from OOT, so most are enacted on a roll or something.)
Most of these wont fit dungeons in the game, but are just ideas, I'm throwing a BUNCH out there. (Also, most of these would be difficult to assign Magic Power costs to, as they are more passive bonuses.)

Earth Cog : Allows Link to lift larger than average rocks. Rolling into an enemy causes the enemy to become stunned, or if like a Rock-Chu is wearing its hat, to break that as well. (Think of the rolling into walls etc as like Dashing at them in MC, but with more stuff.) (Allows Link past previously unmovable obstacles.)

Sky Cog : Allows Link to walk on Clouds. Rolling is replaced by a flipping leap, which can still let him knock into walls if he hits them, etc, but allows him to ascend over ledges and the like. (Think MC's Roc's Cape + A sword Jump without the Sword; Allows a new sword move to be learned). (Allows access to places such as MC's Cloud Tops.)

Volcano Cog : Allows Link to withstand Extreme Heat (ie, Red Tunic from OOT). His roll now leaves a trail of flame that can burn grass and enemies that walk into it before it fades, and light dark rooms. Also does damage if he hits an enemy while rolling. (Slug Trail from MC + Fire = this, pretty much) (Allows access to Volcanoes such as Death Mountain Crater in OOT).

Ocean Cog : Allows Link to swim, (or if he can already do that, Dive, ie, breath underwater - OOS/OOA?) Also prevents him from being set on fire (still takes damage from running into it, but no more silly "OHMAGAWDIMONFIYAAAAH!" issues. (Allows access to Watery Areas.)

Nature Cog : Allows Link to Climb Vines and Cliffs,(a-la Power Bracelet MC). It also makes his normal Roll go a bit farther. (Probably the first cog in the game, allows him to shamble around like a monkey.) (Used to access the tops of cliffs, areas in dungeons and in the overworld, and to increase travel speed).

Shadow Cog : (Note: Use either this or the Cloak, not both.) Phases Link out of reality, allowing him to observe ghosts and illusions, while dulling his awareness of the real world around him. He is unable to roll in this state. (Pretty much the Shadow Cloak, but simpler, and in Cog Form.

-------------------------------------------------

Anyways, those are my ideas, and I feel they'd work well, but not as Items, perse, but as, I completed the pre-quest to doing this dungeon, now I get a cog! type thing. They should be equipped one at a time, etc, and you shouldn't neeeed to switch too often. It's not going to make fighting impossible if you want to keep your Nature Cog up all the time. The only one that is actually perilous would be the Shadow Cog, while the Fire one might need to be toned down (make the trail like a, on the block where he started the roll, kind of thing.)

Whatever, that's what I think.

Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 12, 2011, 04:45:57 am
On a small detail... Well, actually kind of important, in the game design information topic, it says there are four dungeons. So only four cogs, or is that topic not actually relevant and I'm just not up to date? Because I do that sometimes, it can be a problem...

Well, I think we've actually mostly agreed on how the cogs work, it just doesn't look like it. The only things we aren't down with are how the cogs should be used, and then the specifics.
from my point of view, I don't see how they could work with the roll command, that seems kinda awkward to use for puzzles bcause rolling is hard to control, or be precise. Know what I mean?. Or maybe I don't like the way they'd be stat boosters, because Link never really has had stats in any way, other than damage his sword does. He either has an ability or not.

I'll explain the spinner again, too. I was proposing having the spinner having been created by the Gorons to work with the cogs when they made them, and then link stealing it without knowing its potential until he gets a cog. So initially, it could have functions as a cool dash, as well as doing what it could in TP, open those certain switches. And Link could be like, why does the weird gear thing I found open doors in these temples related to cogs? And the he learns, OH, they're built to work together, so the bearer of the spinner could get the cogs to open the clock. That's why it can open these doors. And that's why through the spinner, the bearer of the cogs can manifest some of the power that's in them to aid him in his quest.
Or it could have less plot significance. That plot stuff was just an idea, and a little Zelda-cliche. By which I mean cliche, but in a way that you'd expect and probably like in a Zelda game.

I understand that I'm proposing turning one of the least liked Zelda items into probably the main item of king of thieves this way. But I liked the spinner despite its sort of not too usefulness in TP, so I kind of want to give it another chance. Like what were doing with the dominion rod, another chance ther by combining it with another item, invisibility cloak or cane of piccai or switchhook. But I understand that this might be too much of a chance, like, giving it too much significance.

As for it's "relevance" to KoT, I don't understand. I thought the spinner seemed really thief-y. Thief-ful. Thief-esque. Haha. But it's a game being made up, it's as related as we decide it should be!


All that defense of the spinner said, the cogs would work great like Dins fire or the Ether Medallion, as you mentioned. I was imagining the cogs WOULD be attacks. Because its not like, I'm hittin' yo with this cog! It's like, I'm using this cog's magic properties to aid me in my quest to bring them to where they're designed to fit! The whole point of this was to make the cogs useful as items, unlike the medallions, pendants, triforce pieces, essences, siren's instruments, elements, pearls, fused shadows, and whatever you got in the Zelda games I haven't played or forgot, about at the end of a dungeon that you couldn't use but desperately needed.

So I still like the spinner, and yes, it'd be a big, "related" item to King of Thieves, somewhat like if the Rod of Seasons was optional in Oracle of Seasons. Because the powers of the cogs would be useful, and get you through puzzles, but we don't have to make those puzzles necessary, unless we use them to say, the spinner only opens this door if you have this cog equipped, to ensure linear dungeon flow. And yeah, choosing the spinner as an item to tie them to isn't necessary, I just liked it.

So a good compromise if you don't like the spinner probably would be just making them like ALTTP medallions. What do you think?


PS, my favorite of your cog ideas is that Link leaves a trail of fire when rolling. Haha, it so awesome! But I still don't see how some of those (like picking up rocks?) would work with rolling. And some of them negate other items (Roc's cape, power bracelet), but are more confusing then other items... But I really want something to cause Link to leave a trail of fire when he rolls!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 12, 2011, 05:51:54 pm
Quote
Most of these wont fit dungeons in the game, but are just ideas, I'm throwing a BUNCH out there.

I was just suggesting things xD If there were only four dungeons, then we'd obviously not use like 8 cogs, only four or five. The one thing that's not clicking with me for your method would be the reliance on something that is pretty much the equivalance of rolling, which is why I used it as an analogy. The spinner in TP sent you about as far (depending entirely on if you sat and charged it all the way up, or on the slope face you were on) as a roll. If KoT Link has the ability to roll, then it seems kind of silly to tie them to a secondary roll. In TP, the spinner had a defined purpose, which was, ride the gear tracks and spin mechanisms to acheive things like an open door.
What I'm failing to see in KoT, is how either of those would be incredibly useful, considering it would be a heck-of-a-ton harder to do, I mean, with square corners, you're going to have a fun time riding around Stallords circular room, for example. The doors thing could work, but from what I've read so far it doesn't sound like you're including that. Anyways, it, to me, just doesn't seem like a feasable item.

However, what you seem to misunderstand, is that I'm not suggesting new attacks, or power-ups (in a sense.) What I'm suggesting is more like tunics, the ideas I gave yesterday were rough and unfinished, etc.

In MC you got the power-bracelet to climb cliffs.
In OOT / "MM" / MC / ALTTP / etc you get a method of swimming.
In MC / OOT / OOA / OOS you got a method of jumping.
In ALTTP / OOT / MM? / etc you got a method of becoming stronger, so as to lift certain things.

What I suggest that the cogs do, is provide more of a passive effect when "equipped or whatever." That doesn't mean that when you use a "Spinner" with one up, it won't change its use; I'm just trying to cut down on the need for excessive quantities of items, while making the cogs significantly useful for progression to other areas. In OOT, you needed the tunics to enter and beat dungeons, and you needed the Power Bracelet and Goron Bracelet to enter and beat dungeons. In OOT, you could already swim, but in almost all of the hand-helds, Link can't, at least right off the bat.

What I suggest, is, instead of having a list that looks like this, of accessories:

Hover Boots - allows you to hover, making you have reduced friction as well.
Forest Cog - makes tornadoes for jumping and attack and increases the speed of the spinner.
Power Bracelet: lets you climb climbable cliffs.
Goron Bracelet - lets you pull of Bomb Flowers (and lift bigger rocks?)
Silver Bracelet - lets you pull massive blocks and stuff.
Stone Cog - lets you "raise and lower certain rocks" etc, while slowing the spinner, while causing an earthquake.
Iron Boots - makes you slower and heavier, enough to sink to the bottom of water.
Ocean Cog - lets you travel across water and through currents (a-la pokemon's Whirlpool?), while providing a water attack.
Zora Tunic / Flippers - lets you swim and dive in water that is deep enough.
Cloak of Shadows - lets you swap realities, obscuring the physical and revealing the ghostly aspects of stuff, also makes you 
                             invisible.
Shadow Cog - does an attack that stuns enemies, and dispells illusions.


Granted, I made that sound as convoluted as I could, after just waking up, but my point stands. Rather than that, I suggest something along the lines of this V. However, when I say used, I'm thinking, the little "Jump" attack the spinner had in TP, not just getting on it (the Dash, as I refer to it.)

Forest Cog: Lets you climb vines, cliffs and other such things. It increases the Spinner's non-dashing speed. When the Spinner is used (the Dash) with this active, it launches a tornado in front of it, which moves, and slows down, and stops, before fading a second later. Useful for stunning enemies, or jumping into to access new areas. (The tornado would, if it encountered a hole, ie, Cane of Paccai, it would last longer, and be gone when you jumped into it.

Stone Cog: Allows you to lift, push and pull previously unmovable stones, and perhaps makes him sink in water. It decreases the Spinner's non-dashing speed. When the Spinner is used (the Dash) with this active, a shockwave pulses around the spinner, not too far, but far enough to be effective., causing enemies to be stunned, or if they're too cool for that, take damage. All enemies (except those immune) take knockback from running into this shockwave. This can also crack-split-then-shatter rocks that one might have needed Bombs for.

Ocean Cog A (assuming Link can't swim): Allows Link to swim. The spinner is now capable of travelling over water, though when the time runs out, you plop down into it. When used, the Spinner emits a whirlpool of watery stuff, allowing it to go faster (Dash) on water, and to break any whirlpools it hits / gets stuck in. This whirlpool of water stuff also knocks back enemies.

Ocean Cog B (Assuming Link can swim): Allows Link to swim BETTER!, ie, swim through PKMN-esque currents, and or Dive, allowing him to get stuff of the bottom and swim under obstructions. Same Spinner stuff applies, but it does damage and knock-back.

Shadow Cog: (I don't like the idea of this one too much, as a whole.) Allows Link to walk on "Ghostly Platforms", ones that you can't see without the Shadow Cloak up, and can now walk on - as well as either increasing the "Range" of the Cloak, ie, Lens of truth style 75% of the screen circle to 100% of it, OR increasing the light area around Link in dark places, a-la MC's Temple of Droplets. This allows the spinner to travel on "Ghostly Platforms" as well, and either does not affect the speed, or makes it go faster when the Shadow Cloak is being used.

That's all I have for the Shadow Cog, cuz I really just don't see that one working well =/ The water one all depends on whether or not Link gets something like flippers. That pretty much sums all the cogs up into a Link Bonus, and Passive Spinner Bonus, and a Spinner Dash Bonus.

And that way, all we really have is one item, with four (and a half) effects, + a neutral bonus for Link. Changing them shouldn't be much of a problem, unless you're a die hard, MUSTUSEWATERSPIN ALLTEHTIME person, and then you're kinda in for it, but other than that, I think it would work well with a hookshot, bow, boomerang if we have one, etc etc etc. What do you think?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on November 14, 2011, 01:13:00 am
If possible, can a somewhat solid foundation on items be ready in 2 weeks?  Main quest items at the least.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 14, 2011, 08:59:13 pm
I'm pretty sure we can, MG. I actually wrote out a full length post yesterday, but it got deleted before I posted it and I was disheartened, so I just went on with my life and had my trebuchet launching party. Eight foot tall trebuchet with 250lb counterweight is great for launching squash like twenty yards. Pumpkins were a bit of a challenge for it, though. Amazingly, no cops were called!

Anyway, yeah, I missed that bit about the throwing of ides. Haha, also... I finally realized what you've been saying, I think I just had a block about the spinner because I liked the gear motif so much and much earlier, people were talking about the spinner, etc. I'll bring the spinner and cogs up later, for now, how about these:

EDIT: I changed the order a lil' bit, I think this will work better. Obviously, opinions are welcome and encouraged, from functions of items to order to suggesting different items, etc.

Note: I'm sure there will be a couple items that you receive while in Hyrule town, before leaving on your quest to go to dungeons. I don't know what these will be yet, but probably one of them will be bombs.

Boomerang
Found in the forest, needed to get into the temple.

Pressing the button throws the boomerang, which goes in a straight line in the direction you're facing for a bit less than half the screen, then comes back toward you, to wherever you may have moved since throwing it.
When enemies are hit by the boomerang, they're stunned, some weak enemies may take damage. Impact switches (activated by striking) can be activated with the boomerang, and perhaps some specific things hanging from ropes or vines can be cut down.


Hookshot
Found in the forest temple, used first to traverse the forest canopy, going from tree to tree and branch to branch.

When you press the button, the shooting end extends on a chain from the grip. When the hook end hits your target, it stuns enemies and removes whatever power ups they might have, destroys some things like pots, latches and pulls in light objects, and drags link toward larger anchored objects it can attach to. The hookshot can drag you across gaps, activate switches if they're close enough and the right type, as well as be useful in combat.
A hookshot is used by one man in a port town as a tool to pull ships in to the docks, but was discontinued because it just kept pulling him into the sides of boats (not really relevant... Haha)


Flippers
Given to you by a member of the Zora Royal family after you rescue him from the cave where they were stored. Used to rescue the remaining Zora royalty and enter the water dungeon.

Once you have the flippers, you can swim and dive. Swimming is standard Zelda, you blub blub along, press the action button to dash, b button to dive. Diving in shallow water lets you dodge enemies. But diving in certain deep waters lets you enter another under water map, like OOX and pokemon's HM dive.

The under water parts could be either side scrolling or like other maps, or perhaps some of both. Personally, I'm all for being able to use your sword while diving, but not swimming, both on side scrolling maps as well as top down under water maps. Most other items wouldn't work; however, some would.



Magnetic Gloves
Found in the water dungeon

Pressing the button activates the magnetic gloves, one polarity at a time. Pressing the equivalent of the R trigger switches polarity instantly. The magnetic charge is active for as long as you hold down the button.
When the magnetic gloves are activated, a strong magnetic pulse is sent out. Items of opposite polarity are attracted to it, and if they're mobile, they'll head toward Link. If they're stationary, Link will be dragged toward them. Items of opposite polarity will be repulsed away from Link, or push him away, depending on whether or not they're stationary.
When the magnetic gloves are equipped, Link can use them to climb metal walls and attach himself to magnetic platforms and cranes, such as in TP. Certain switches can also be toggled with the magnetic gloves, but only when they're in range.


Bow and Arrow
Found in the Goron mountains, needed to access the Goron mines.

Pressing the button fires an arrow in the direction Link is facing. It does not go the entire length of the screen, but the majority of it. If an arrow hits an object, it will stop, but they can fly over certain low fences and barriers.
The bow and arrow can be used to hit enemies from afar. It does minor damage to enemies. The projectiles can also be used to hit basic impact switches that are out of reach, eyeball switches, and when necessary, knock some hanging items down.
Obviously, you need arrows to shoot.



Power Bracelet
Found in the Goron mountains, needed to access the Goron mines.

Possessing the power bracelet allows you to lift heavier and bigger things, stones you couldn't lift before, large crates perhaps, etc. the power bracelet doesn't need to be equipped to a button, but passively allows you to lift these things.

EDIT: changed order to add in boomerang, because the power bracelet wasn't very exciting, and I had been feeling iffy about putting the arrow as the very first item. No other 2D Zelda put projectile weapons as the first item (by which I mean bow/slingshot). We can still give the player the power bracelet to pick up bigger rocks, either here, before the mines, elsewhere, or as an optional item.



Goron Drill
Found in the Goron Mines

Pressing the button will whip out the drill and drill the tile in front of you. If there is an enemy there, it will do a good amount of damage, more than the sword. If there is a drill-able wall/rock in front of you, you will reduce it to rubble. After drilling, you pause for a second while the spinning of the drill slows down. If you want to drill through a lot, like if you're going through a mole mitt style area, you can hold the button and the drill will spin in place for a second, and then you will drill in a straight line until you stop holding down the button or run into something you can't drill. This function works the same way Pegasus boots do, but instead of running fast, you're drilling through specific type of rock, or enemies. And probably not going fast.
Certain walls and areas can only been traversed by drilling through them with the Goron Drill, and certain enemies can only be defeated with it as well.




Fire and Ice Arrows
Found in Gerudo Fortress before entering the Valley of Death.

When aiming the bow, but before releasing it, you can press the equivalent of the R trigger to switch types of arrows. The selected type remains equipped to the bow until you switch again or unequip the bow from its button.
Fire arrows could burn things, to light torches and open pathways blocked with wood. Ice arrows could freeze things to use as stepping stones, or freezing some things would make them breakable, for instance freezing a certain type of plant would make it so you could shatter it and get past.
Using the fire or ice arrows requires magic which is used up based in how many arrows you shoot, not how long you aim the bow for. Ie, it takes 5 points to shoot a fire arrow, not matter how long you charge the arrow in your bow for. I hated when it used up magic to aim your arrows in OOT...



Shadow Cloak
Hotly debated
Found in sheikah dungeon.
Function to be decided



Suggestion:
Thief's Rod
Left in the celestial clock by a famous theif of days gone by.

Pressing the button will fire a charge in the direction you're facing. This charge dissipates after it travels most of the screen.
When some objects are hit with the charge, they are overloaded with energy and flip upside down. Some objects resist the charge, and some things are powered up by it. Certain switches could be powered by the charge from the rod, as well as the moving statues which you can control. Statues have different functions depending on what type of statue they are.



Also, we'll need to work out the shadow cloak, if decide against it to do something else.
I would really like to fit in the dominion rod/cane of piccai combo too, if possible. Maybe as the item of the final dungeon, it powers the celestial clock and the statues you control are clockwork? I'll add that in there as a suggestion.

SO, what do you think of those? Let's make suggestions, bring up things we don't like with these, and overall finalize them before we put the spinner discussion as the main thing. These should be priority one.

My thoughts on these as the items are this: boomerang? I like the boomerang, but should it be a main item. In a couple games, I think it was optional, we could do that. Also, we could make it in place of the bow, and move the bow to someplace later, perhaps instead of the power bracelet. Personally, I support that, finding the boomerang before the forest dungeon and then the bow before the Goron dungeon. But I already ran this order past you and it was okayed, so now's when we go over it to finalize and stuff.

Also, finally, in regards to the spinner...
You're totally right about the spinner being a fairly ineffective item. I just liked it, and in my defense, I totally did mention its main function, besides the dash, was opening doors, and initially intended it to open certain doors in tandem with the cogs- you could only use it to open certain doors with the earth cog equipped, only certain others with the sea cog equipped.

But yeah, the spinner is kinda useless otherwise.
But I am still opposed to making them status enhancing, or giving you abilities. Like, how will a gear in my pocket let me climb this cliff, or swim? So my vote now is to emulate the medallions of ALTTP, or Din's fire et al from OoT, with them doing attacks that can solve certain puzzles. My formula was each cog does 1 attack you can use sometimes, and solve one specific type of puzzle. But now, instead of with the spinner, make Link just kind of "cast" the cog, like the motion he did to use Ether Medallion or Din's fire.

So I guess we might not use the spinner. Unless we can think of some new function for it, then maybe we could fit it in. Perhaps right before the celestial clock, it's needed to gain access to the celestial clock dungeon. You have to find it and use it as a key to spin the cogs and open the door, but you can also use it to open some other doors, zoom around on rails inside the clock, maybe a couple some other place that are explained to be there because they have to do with the clock, and some other function.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: . on November 14, 2011, 11:05:09 pm
Sorry to ignore some very large and thoughtful posts (there have been a few since I last checked in). I had to stop in the middle of reading them to offer an idea. What if it was the dominion rod, but it could be used to control enemies? The rod would use magic to do this, and the amount of magic used would be controlled by the strength of the enemy. Magic would not be drained during the monster's use. The monster would be released by the player pressing a button or by dying.

I know it's not in the right format, but It's not much to read.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 15, 2011, 03:39:32 am
Jimmy Jim Jimn! Hadn't seen you for a while, thought you got eaten by a shark or something.
You know, I'd thought about that too, when I was thinking about the shadow cloak, in a possession type idea. It definitely presents a lot of problems though, well, not problems, but questions. What can the enemies do? What good does controlling them do? Where does link go during the possession? How far can they go? A certain distance from Link, only as far as what's on the screen, can they go to other maps, roam the overworld?
Personally, I think the biggest thing is, what good would this be? Would the monsters be kinda like the statues we're theorizing about now, that certain enemies could cut down certain barriers, or defeat other enemies? Press switches you couldn't reach because they could fly? I feel like statues could do more, though, because they wouldn't regain autonomy after you were done manipulating them, and therefore you could interact more, by using them as platforms or in general just making them stay somewhere.
I also think statues might be easier to program, but that's an area I have no knowledge about.

So how exactly would the possession work? How would you control the enemy and what would they do? What could this accomplish for Link?

And also, how do you feel about the suggested items in the post above yours? And that order? Once we define the main dungeon items the dungeon group can get started, so let's get those ASAP. And then after that we could brainstorm optional items and nonessentials and stuff.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 15, 2011, 04:55:32 am
@ Max,
Quote
But I am still opposed to making them status enhancing, or giving you abilities. Like, how will a gear in my pocket let me climb this cliff, or swim?

The same way that wearing a shiny bracelet makes you 4x stronger? Or wearing a blue shirt lets you breath underwater, or a one-was-a-tiny-person-turned-into-a-hat can make you shrink, a rock in your forehead lets you turn into a wolf, people can be turned into talking boats, or Ganondorf can die about 8 times, and be the same Ganondorf. If you take a look at a great deal of the items in the Zelda series, Power Bracelets, Tunics, etc, even things like Heart Pieces, they don't really make sense. I mean, I just picked up a giant sparkly heart shaped thing, now I can get stabbed one more time before I die... like whut?
Anyways, my point was mainly that having the cogs might be useful in that regard, giving link a new ability, as the alternative, if you wanted to stick to the spinner, would probably end up being "I can jump while on spinner" "I can move rocks with spinner" etc. Consider them buffed up sword skills. In many games, you need the sword skills to get through, not out of lack of skill, but of quest importance. MC and TP are two examples. These aren't really "Status Buffs" for Link, they just let him use new abilites.

Anyways, it's late and I'm sleepy, but I like only having 9 main items. If you want a dominion rod-esque one, definately use the Theives Rod, as it doesn't fit anywhere else. Perhaps even have the "Theives Rod" not be a Rod, but be like, a replacement spinner. You steal it at the beginning, a la marking you as the new Theif, Sword in the Stone accidental style, and then as you get the cogs, it gains new powers. Then, in the last dungeon, when you have the last power, or whatnot, its full use is avaliable as a heckofa useful item. Just an idea. That eliminates the needs for a silly spinner, and makes the cogs more, like, grounded. If you have a "Insert Token here to upgrade staff," I think that fits a bit better. Though, I don't really think it should be a staff. I stick with my original idea, that it should be a Gauntlet or something. Maybe a belt.
Anyways, for possesion, I think a "If I move left, you move right" mirror system could add a ton of fun challenges, especially in a giant, flying space clock type setting. And it doesn't have to be for long. If the possession is a result of having the full staff, then you're only going to really use it in the last dungeon, and presumably on the end boss (though it would probably require all the different forms of the staff, or cogs, which you can toggle.)

Anyways, Boomerang, Hookshot sound good. Flipper, Glove sounds good. Bow and Drill, I'm still not seeing the appeal of the drill, but I hated the way both the pegasus boots and the mole mits were done, (MC/LTTP and MC). But that's just me.
Bombs don't even have to be added, due to the drill, but the drill would have to take its place, entirely. Fire and Ice arrows work, so does the Cloak when we figure out exactly what it does. Anyways, it's a nice, refined number of items, plus a potential one. I like it.

Question: Why is there a Gerudo section before the Sheikah? Just wondering, I havn't checked out the real plot area or anything. If the Sheikah are Hyrule Royal Family based, the Sheikah dungeon would presumably be close to Hyrule Castle, not Gerudo Desert. Is it a detour? Anyways.

Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 15, 2011, 04:34:16 pm
Haha, touché about the logic, Dark. Right again, You're making me look stupid bro! Haha.
Oh, also, the info about dungeon order, etc, is in the topic, 'current design information'.

So, priorities first, you're down with everything except the Bow and Drill? Awesome, we've got that much done, then. For one thing, do you actually dislike the bow, or was that a typo? It did just occur to me, we need to emphesize what the bow does differently than the boomerang.

How the bow if different from the boomerang:
Does damage instead of stunning
Goes much further, most of the screen length, I think.
Goes faster.
We could add a better aiming feature, a number of people have said they have 360 degree aiming systems for their bows.
Uh, what else?

Anyway, about the drill, yeah, if you don't like Pegasus boots or mole mitts, you'll hate the Goron Drill, cause it's just both of 'em combined. Question is, what to do instead.
One option is to just use bombs there. If we leave bombs out completely, we loose the timed part. I really like the idea that bombs can, for example, hold down a pressure switch, but only until they explode. Creates lots of interesting puzzles. So we could just have bombs as the item of Goron mines. Or switch them and the bow, have the bombs needed to get in, and the bow is the prize.

Or we could think of a totally different item to have in the mines. I don't have any ideas at the moment, you?

The other option is to rework the drill, which I'm in favor of, because new items are awesome, they get points for trying, even if they don't always work out the best.( Like the spinner. The dominion rod... Well, it gets a couple points for trying, but it tried too hard. The ball and chain was just awesome.)
So what exactly did you not like about the Pegasus boots and drill? We can always address those problems and make the drill better than them.
Or the other option is to redefine what the drill does, which is hard, because it's a drill. Haha, but it definitely needs the function of being able to break through walls. How did you feel about the Megaton hammer? It basically was stronger bombs without the timer, right? Haha, we could do that, take out the tunneling functions. Or maybe leave it in, because I like it, but don't emphesize it as the only main function.
By the way, the way I was thinking the drill would go wasn't the hey, this dungeon is filled with lots of dirt in your way. It was, hey, I can break through rocks, and walls. And murder enemies! And in a couple places, there's dirt in my way, but that's not EVERYWHERE, because when you mention it, that was kinda gimmicky. Honestly, though, I didn't mind it at all. It was a bit slow for me, which is why I added the Pegasus boots part.
So how do you think the drill/something else should go?


Haha, and now to the cogs problem... It's not a problem anymore! What am I saying?
Anyway, I like your ideas great, about the gauntlets/belt. Yeah, I definitely like those two the best, but I'm just as torn as you are, although I'm leaning toward the gauntlets. But what about bracers? I like the idea of Link having his hands free, or at least just with his signature fingerless gloves. The idea of wearing a gauntlet but NOT any other armor is kind of awkward. This is all just from an aesthetic point of view, though.

So I'm thinking, and I'll call them bracers because I think those would look the best on Link, that the bracers should have a small function of their own, so before you have the cogs, it's not like, wtf are these? What about lock picking? That was a skill talked about earlier. With the thieves' gauntlets, you got the dexterity to pick locks. Maybe that was always a really hard thing for thief Link to do while growing up, he always struggled to pick locks. But with this item he steals accidentally, he can do it better.
Then, the bracers alone could pick locks. With each cog attached, though, they could pick harder locks, as still work like I once thought, that with the forest cog, Link could pick wooden locks, which are slightly harder, with the water one, he could pick... Uh... Blue locks. Haha, but you know? Then the bracers would still have their main function.
But if you used the bracers away from a door...
BOOM! Goron Earthquake! Or tornado! I just imagine Link putting on the bracers, then pulling his arm back dramatically and slamming it into the ground, and a tornado spins up around him, blowing his hat and knocking away enemies!

And then we can look through what's left after we decide on all the items, see hey, this ability isn't covered, and assign it to a cog ability.

And in the final dungeon, Link finds the Master Theif's bracers, and puts them on, and can then... Shall we say, require things? He can go up to a statue and press the gauntlet button and then futz with it a second and then it will obey him. He can also fix some broken clock stuff this way, get gears moving.
As for the mirror thing, I think that should be just one type of statue. So it still presents the versatility of the way just controlling a statue can work, without being limited to you have to move too.


And... I still think it could be a rod. I'm not advocating it over the bracers, but the cogs wouldn't be inserted. It'd be like to rod of seasons. That had four circular tokens that were just added onto the end as you found them. Just like our four circular cogs. Just saying. The bracers/gauntlets would probably work better, though.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 16, 2011, 04:00:23 am
Haha, sorry bout that xD The bow was in fact a typo, the bow is a staple, and should definitely be there. However, the drill seems like an original idea, I'm just not a fan. Bombs not being present presents (lol) an issue, of the timing, etc. There are so many uses for bombs if thought through correctly; it's just hard to come up with an adequate destructive weapon.

Imma let yall in on a bit of a secret: The destructive secondary in the game I'm designing with a few other people (3d, mind) are called the Gearfists, or Golem Fists. Pretty much, Link loses his sword and shield, in favor of a boxing type melee combat. With these mechanical gloves, he is able to power doors, pull rusty switches, lift bigger things, etc, as well as punching rocks and walls to crack them. Charges are a focus in my game, as Time Stop is the key ability, sort of like PH, but wayyy less broken. Charges require magic power, but power up the "Standard Weapon", ie, the Sword / Shield, or whatever else is used, in this case, the Golem Fists. These charges, cuz there are different kinds, have different effects on both the time slow and the use of the weapon. The charge could increase the knockback of the weapon, etc, while making Link slower during the pauses. Stuff like that. End spoilers.

The Drill functions for what? Digging and breaking rocks. Bombs break rocks, so it's really only good for Digging. (My issues with the mole mits and the pegasus boots in MC were simply that they were unwieldy and used very rarely, I avoided them as much as I could). The Drill also feels unweildy. I loved the hammer in WW, and the Ball and Chain in TP, they were well balanced, and easy to use. How about something that a ton of zelda people would love to see, and the diehards wouldn't fuss too much about, seeing as how TP used something similar? A Hand-Cannon! (A steampunky, heavy, clunky cannon)Examples:

You're faced with a room full of previously "diggable" dirt. Instead, you pull out a mini-cannon, which makes you slow to a crawl, unable to change directions, and constantly facing the same way. Strafing, you line up with the most dirt, and let loose. A cannonball launches out, obliterating the stuff in a straight line in front of it.
Or
You are fighting a mini-boss, boss, or whatnot, that, when stunned, takes a few hits. Instead of trying to leap over the cracks in the room, ala Ganondorf OOT, you simply whip out this bad boy, charge for a few seconds, and fire before he gets up. Incredibly powerful shots, low mobility.

And, for a TP esque feel, the cannonballs could be a One shot thing. Like, you have one ammo, that you can either leave be, and lose a precious ammo, to lie on switches and weigh them down, etc, or you could pick them up, and pocket them. It would be the kind of thing were you would probably only be able to hold 3 shots at most, but if each shot does the equivalent of two bomb blasts, and the balls were easy to retrieve, Hookshot or Boomerang maybe, it would prove a reliable weapon. You could start out with one shot, and from sidequests get more, etc. This also adds the possibilities of cannonballs occuring naturally, for similar use.

The downsides of a powerful, long ranged weapon that limited mobilities would be the following:
Hookshot - ranged stun / retrieve
Boomerang - ranged stun / retrieve
Bow - ranged damage / stun

There isn't much room for one, plus, if it were seen as too "gun-like" many zelda fans would turn up their noses. However, if it were done well, and perhaps if the boomerang were slightly different, like the Whirlwind did in ST, then it could fit. However, the drill also seems non-circuitus, at least in my opinion. It's food for thought, at least, and could accomplish more than just digging and breaking. *Extra* Potentially could shoot bombs... just a thought O.o Use it as a "replacement bombs", and have it launch them...

Cogs: I personally like the idea of either bracers or a belt, belt would probably fit best with a Cog type feel (hint, using a belt in mine too x.x) but the Gauntlet and the Rings mentioned in another thread, plus the bracer idea, would make for an interesting idea.
If you had a glove with sockets or attatchment areas for the cog, you could easily justify them being used as an attack, based on punches and whatnot, etc, but could also be used for certain skills, lock-picking like you mentioned. I don't think they should be tied to abilities, but perhaps could increase them, like the ring thread suggested. I do enjoy your idea of a "Link Hulk Smash"  XD
If the cogs were tied, one at a time, to the bracers, which originally allowed lock-picking, it could feasably allow access to different colored doors. Etc etc etc. I like it, I like it a lot. And I'm trying very hard not to go and write some of these ideas into my own game design book xD

Still: the "Grenade Launcher"? What do you think. I'm on edge about it, it hasn't been done before, and so it's new territory. Plus, it's a gun-esque item, that is a Player Item. It's scary stuff to consider, but it'd end up being really really cool, or just a sour taste =/ Then again, so would the drill, imo.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 16, 2011, 05:06:53 am
I LIKE IT!
I'm all for a clunky steam punk hand cannon, especially since, if I'm not mistaken, this Zelda kind of has a bit of steam punk motif going on already, what with the cogs and Goron carbon mines.

You also mentioned shooting bombs, which is what I thought right away when I started reading, I was like, it SHOOTS the bombs! And then you went into cannonball stuff... and then you brought back bombs! Alright! As you can tell, I'm in favor of it shooting bombs. This has my vote. I'm excited about this idea!

So, let's talk ammo and balance. I agree, you cant be able to just run around with it, although I think that not being able to change directions... I mean, what if the stalfos you're trying to blast to pieces moves some? Perhaps you press the button to whip it out, then hold the button to charge a shot. When it's out, but not charging, you move slowly, but can change direction. When it's charging, you move REALLY slowly, or not at all. Tapping when it's out is equivalent to no charging, so the bomb just plops down in front of you (in case you need to use the bomb to hold down a switch). Charging for a medium time shoots it across like half the screen, charging for a long time shoots it all the way across the screen. The bomb does damage and smashes through things while it's flying. There are some things it will explode on impact with, when it's relevant to puzzles or battles. Otherwise when it reaches the end of its trajectory or hits something it can't smash through, it drops to the ground and sparks for a second before blowing up. JUST LIKE the bomb penguins from angry birds! Perfect analogy!

What I think about bombs for ammo is that then, we still have bombs in the game, which is good. We just also have an awesome way to range them, and use their speed as a smash through stuff in the meantime. But if the player doesn't charge the hand cannon, then they can lay bombs like normal.
Also, if we use bombs for ammo I recommend then using a traditional bomb finding system, where they're a randomly found thing.

The single to three shots that you have to retrieve... That doesn't sound like much fun. And then what if you shot it somewhere you couldn't each, or what if you left the map. Would the cannonball stay there? Would you regain it upon leaving the map? I dunno, I don't think I quite understand that system. Which is why I'm advocating the bombs.


SO, back to the bracers, so it seems we're in agreement, basically. Here's what I think we agree on:
Link, early in the game, steals bracers that allow him to pick locks.
When he finds the first cog, it can be attached to a bracer, allowing him to lockpock new types of locks, and do SOMETHING else.
Each successive cog allows Link to open more locks, as they're attached to the gauntlets, as well as do more SOMETHINGs.
In the final dungeon, Link finds the master thief's bracers, which allow him to rewire the clockwork statues, so he can control them, different statues can do different things.

Just double checking, we agree on that? Or do you want it to be a belt? I just felt like bracers would make more sense with lock picking.

And now, we must decide on the SOMETHING. I'll post what I think, and you post your ideas, and then we'll argue, haha.

Forest Cog
Holding the button assigned to the thief bracers charges an attack when not adjacent to a door, and when released, Link slams his fist into the ground and creates a tornado around him, which blows nearby enemies back and activates certain wind-activated switches.
Uses up magic, though, like ALTTP fire rod.

Sea Cog
Charging with this cog equipped causes an attack that shoots a wave of water across the screen in a straight line. Enemies hit are dealt some damage and stunned. Hitting some things activates switches, or example, you could fill up a container with water this way, or cause a current in a river or sea.
Uses up magic.
Uh, this idea isn't too good. The sea cog is something my ideas for havent been to great with... Hmm...
MAYBE this cog could only really have an effect in water, when you're swimming and you press the button it shoots a wave that damages enemies. I don't know how much water the game will have if this would be practical...

Earth Cog
Charging this cog equipped causes Link's punch the ground to cause an earthquake. It shakes the earth and deals damage to all enemies on screen. Some stones can be raised or lowered when hit by the earthquake. Link can then climb these stones, or get past where they used to be.
Uses a lot of magic.

Shadow Cog
Charging this... I don't have a good idea for this one, either. Perhaps it would dispel illusions, like you could punch an illusion and it would go away, haha, I don't know. It depends on what we decide the sheikah dungeon item does, it will do something other than that.


Which brings me to my next point, once we finalize the hand cannon, the only dungeon item we have left will be the sheikah dungeon.
I gave some thought to the, entering the realm of illusion, enemies can't see you but you can hurt yourself easier but you see past illusions, its cool, but, I don't know how much fun or useful it'd actually be.

I need to go, perhaps I'll have time to come back and edit this, but what I'd like to keep in the sheikah dungeon is illusions, and the sheikah wraiths. So it'd be great if the item functioned with those, but still wasn't the lens of truth. I have some kind of complex about items that drain magic power constantly, haha. If it is a cloak, it should look like the one Zelda wears in TP, too.
Aaand, with that being said, this kinda contradicts it, but... I also think the Roc's cape could work. That just happens to by my favorite item in the 2D games. It doesn't tie in with illusions, doesn't work with wraiths, but still...

OR, we could do the mirror shield and work with sunlight, like WW's earth temple. Of we do a 360 degree aiming for the bow, we could apply it to the mirror shield too, and aim sunlight at illusions to dispell them. It'd work with the dungeon theme, but... That leaves no room for the Roc's cape.  : (
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 16, 2011, 09:35:53 pm
Yeah, the 3 shot thing I was referring to was in TP, where if you shot a cannonball, you could eventually go get it later, but I like the bomb idea much better. Cogs are sounding good, though my suggestions would be as follow:

Forest Cog: Instead of smashing the ground to create a tornado, he kinda flings it forward, and it gets bigger, like the Whirlwing from ST,  capable of dazing enemies and breaking pots, as well as like, extinguishing torches and tearing through Spider Webs, OOT style.

Ocean Cog: Perhaps, depending on the situation of getting it, and its being made, were it an ICE cog, it could freeze enemies and tracts of water, allowing link to slip and slide across, ala Ice Boomerang, ST. Or, for a purely water thing, maybe put him, or enemies, in bubbles? Just a thought.

Stone Cog: I like, but perhaps a funnel type attack, if the whole screen seems too overpowered, like the Forest Cog.

Shadow Cog: Personally, this contridicts my every thought, as when I look at the others, I see (Wind, Water, Earth... and Darkness?) Personally I'd do a kind of Holy Fire esque thing, for ANTI illusions. Or perhaps, using the cog could stun / confuse / disorient enemies, while identifying invisible things, like pouring a bunch of smoke into a room. Just a thought. Or it could behave like light, which dazes enemies when pointed at them, and illuminates shadowy bridges etc.

Looks like this is pretty close to being wrapped up, I like how far we've come! And bracers / glove does seem to be the best solution.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 16, 2011, 11:31:13 pm
Allright!
Okay, let's try a write up for the bomb cannon.

Bomb Cannon
Found in the Goron Mines
Pressing the button pops out a bomb, which will land in front of you.holding the button will charge up the cannon, which will shoot a bomb a distance directly proportional to how long you charge for. The bomb shoots out and will either land, if the trajectory is uninterrupted, and spark for a little time before exploding, or if it collides with some objects it will explode on impact. Certain things cannot be destroyed unless they're struck by a bomb moving with sufficient speed. Bombs do lots of damage to enemies and the structural integrity of specific things such as walls. In certain areas, a bomb will clear a tunnel through something weak when shot.
Obviously, shooting the cannon uses up a bomb.
Along with the item, you gain the ability to carry bombs, which will hereafter be found randomly in grass and stuff, and sold by some merchants. Bombs, like arrows, are not used on their own, though. The capacity of bombs you can initially carry will depend on how many puzzles use them, but probably about thirty. This can be upgraded through side quests.


Now to the cogs. Ice cog, nice. That does solve lots of our problems. For that matter, we could even have a steam cog, but that might be going too far.

For the forest cog, I wasn't imagining the whole screen being taken up by the tornado, just the area directly around Link. Shooting it forward does seem to have more applications, though. So alright, Link creates a tornado and shoots it forward. How far? I'm thinking after half the screen, it dissipates. Also, it can destroy pots and the like, and definitely put out torches, but I think we should leave things like spider webs for the fire arrows.

Ice Cog, Let's watch out so we don't override the ice arrows. I'm digging the ice spreader kind of thing, Link does like a bowling motion, and the line of ground in front of him ices over. If it hits enemies, they freeze. Awesome, and I love the creating paths over water. I feel like this may just override the ice arrows, though. They'd be a less useful, more ranged version. And... Link gets this after he can swim, so well have to make sure walking over water is still useful...

So we should change either the ice cog OR ice arrows. Personally, I think the ice cog is cooler. HAHA oh wow, that's a bad pun. Anyway, here's opinions on the ice problem:

Remove the ice arrows, so you just get fire arrows in Gerudo valley. Perhaps ice arrows would still be available as an optional thing, but they wouldn't be as useful.

Remove the ice cog, and come up with a different idea for the water cog. It just wouldn't be as cool, though, as Link would no longer be able to like, shoot ice forward and freeze enemies, that'd just look so cool!

Replace the fire and ice arrows with a fire rod type item. Not as cool as fire and ice arrows, but it would accomplish the same thing. Fire rod is to 2D and Fire arrows are to 3D. Keep the ice cog this way.


...
Link used bubble beam!

Haha, that just what I thought when you mentioned bubbles. But you could be onto something, there.


And as for the earth cog, we basically agree. I said whole screen because I was thinking of quake medallion. But if you think that'd be over powered, then yeah, give it like a quarter of the screen fissure type attack. I think it might need to be tested to see if that would be over powering.

And the freaking shadow cog...hmm.

PERHAPS, we could change things a little. If you go directly from the sheikah temple to the clock, then perhaps the shadow cog could be what is responsible for controlling the machines. The cog would shoot out a little whip of dark energy, if it hit an enemy, they'd be disoriented, having suddenly been afflicted by illusionary tormentors. If you hit a statue, the energy resounds within them as they're of sheikah design, and you can control them. Except for sheikah designed artifacts, the shadow cog would basically afflict the target with imaginary demons. Perhaps the guardian could even BE a sheikah wraith, like, the most powerful one.
I like this idea because it gives Link a slightly darker power, one that isn't technically heroic. It sort of shows Link some power that he must be responsible with, and illustrates how the sheikah's affinity for shadow can sometimes lead to dark forces they can't really control. Sheikah wraiths, Bongo Bongo, etc. Its not really relevant to gameplay or the story at all, really, but it just like, a Majora's mask kind of thing to do, to allude at deeper meanings.

This also allows us one more item for the clock dungeon, should be choose. Or we could leave it item less. OR, as I autocorrect doesn't recognize itemless, and it corrects it to timeless, we could have some kind of time type item? A clock of some kind that could... Do stuff... I'm outta ideas. Haha.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 17, 2011, 12:34:29 am
I think the Clock dungeon should be itemless, or perhaps just using the statue / gear control.

Anyways, the Ice cog vs Ice arrows. Both are cool, imo, and I loved the Ice arrows in every game to date, so perhaps a "bubble" or "steam" cog could be more effective. Perhaps, sort of like a geyser, it shoots pillars of steaming water in front of him, scalding enemies that it hits, MELTING ice, etc. I hadn't even thought of steam, but it fits. That would act as an "anti" ice arrows, or perhaps, it could only work on water... say, if there were puddles, it would spawn a pillar from every puddle... or something.

The shadow cog. That silly, silly cog, whatever shall we do with it? Perhaps if it weren't a shadow cog at all, but like you said, more related to the mirror shield. Perhaps the dazing and stuff i mentioned, plus if you blasted a statue, it would come to life, animated by the cogs energy. I do like the shadow torment kind of thing, as it is antiheroic, and it should fit, but it doesn't really tie in to the statues. I think we need to decide entirely on what the shadow dungeon is, what item it has, and then decide on the cog =/

So, my votes go for: Nature Cog: Whirlwing Launching Punch
                              Steam Cog: Pillars of Boiling Water
                              Stone Cog: "Hulk" Smash!
                              "Light" Cog: Beams of Dazing and Energizing Light.

Thus they stand until other ideas are presented... and stuff xD
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 17, 2011, 12:26:28 pm
Man, really frustrating, I tried to post this three times last night, server wasn't responding... Hopefully it'll work, and the university's Internet will be more cooperative.

Alright, so, let's figure out the steam, shadow cog, and shadow item.

Firstly, the shadow dog, because I'm actually kind of excited about the dark energy thing. Let me rephrase it, because I think it does, in fact, tie in with the statues. Well, let me explain this cog's history, as I'm proposing.

When the Gorons created all the cogs ages ago, each race which protected one endowed them with powers. The sheikah gave the power to control statues they constructed, but the way the statues are powered is with dark magic of the sheikah tribe, which the sheikah could not entirely control. My impression of them is that they dabble in dark forces a bit beyond their understanding. As a result of this dark magic, when the power is used on things other then the statues, it inflicts the target with terrifying illusions of wraiths. These hallucinations daze the target and perhaps paralyze them. Perhaps they are slowly poisoned by the stress on their minds, even. But these results are just a side effect of the main purpose of the cog's magic, which is to power the ancient sheikah statues, which do various things. Such as protecting the Celestial Clock.

I think this is basically the same as what you're suggesting, but instead of using light as the theme, which is opposite the sheikah motif, it uses darkness.

Also, if we leave the clock without an item, we can make use of this cog's power to animate statues as one of the main staples of the Celestial Clock. Which kind of makes sense, because in TP, the main thing in the temple of time, the resting place of the master sword there, was similar statues. Since now the clock is where the master sword is kept, statues are a good tie in. Allusion, as King Titero would say, haha.



Ah, now to the steam cog. Since I believe there is a steam punk theme kind of going on in this game, perhaps the steam cog could also power some machines? I like the melting of ice, that could come in handy, especially since the "fire" themed dungeon's cog is focusing on earth. But again... Won't this step on the fire arrow's toes? Haha, with the fire and ice arrows, we kinda can't use other items that melt or freeze. Hmm, I'd like it if the water cog had something effect that worked better or only worked while swimming, I think. But also had a good use outside of that.

Brainstorm session:
Creates a wave. On land, it's basically, Link used surf! Hits enemies and can flood some areas to solve puzzles, can put out torches, fires. In water, though, it's like a super boost, you surf on the wave you create forward, and damage any water enemies you may pass. It'd make you invincible for the duration of the wave, I think. You could use this one to power water wheels.

That's just ideas, obviously. I'm still down for steam too, if we can think of something it does that doesn't override the fire arrows...


And as for the sheikah dungeon's item, how DO you feel about the mirror shield? Allowing for a light/dark theme, and light puzzles, which I find fun... In 3D games at least. But having the opportunity for a sheikah dungeon, with their death and darkness association. Would the mirror shield be a disappointing item? I mean, I really want something cooler, but I have no ideas of something that would actually work, be fun, present lots of puzzle opportunities, be used in fighting sometimes.
Perhaps we could combine the mirror shield with something else? Or at least the projecting light aspect, somehow combined with the illusion theme?

Or we could use the Roc's cape. Just stick a sheikah eye on the back of it and boom, sheikah agility. Haha.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Mirby on November 17, 2011, 03:30:11 pm
Project light to reveal the truths of the illusion? I dunno, sounds good to me.

As for steam... Why not make puzzles that require a container to be filled? I mean, as in a lock and stuff. Use the steam to fill the chamber which in turn triggers a reaction to solve a puzzle.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 17, 2011, 04:37:31 pm
You guys both think she sheikah cog could be light? I mean, if I'm voted down, then that's the way it goes, but you could have a cog that accesses dark sheikah magic to control ancient statues, and it effects the minds of enemies to afflict them with imaginary tormentors. Or you could have a cog created by the shadow folk that caused a beam of light, their opposite, which powers up statues and can make enemies dizzy from bright lights. Which is cooler, really?

Also, I keep having ideas that are mixes of dungeons and story and items, but since the sheikah are dark people, what if their enemies, the Gerudo, have an association with light? Right now, I think their God is the god of the sand, but they could easily have something to do with sun, too. I mean, just an idea, but especially if the sheikah dungeon was between the two domains, it could be an interesting metaphorical battle in the puzzles between light and darkness. Some puzzles would be solved by lighting an area, others by darkening it.
Eh, it's not this topic or even this division, because it's dungeons, but still...

I's still down with steam if the puzzles wouldn't be too... Contrived? Gimmicky? It doesn't seem like a puzzle that would make too much sense unless somebody had designed the puzzle for the cog to activate. Like, tornados blowing stuff down, or turning windmills, or earthquakes shifting rocks, those basically make sense, as in, it's a cog that happens to be able to effect things that are regularly there. But a steam cog, I feel like, wouldn't really be able to affect much that just happened to be there.
Also, would using the steam cog look cool?

No ideas for the sheikah item, though? I'm thinking, we should try to rework the shadow cloak again, or work something out with illusions, which aren't affected by the cog, or perhaps something with the light aspects of the mirror shield. If we don't come up with anything acceptable, then we'll decide between the mirror shield and the Roc's cape. Sound good? Let's try to wrap up these last two items really soon!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 17, 2011, 08:51:42 pm
Mmkay. My (like, for the fiftieth time) 2 cents (dang, i have like... a dollar! Sweet!) But anyways:
I agree, the steam cog is stepping into the Fire Arrows area of use, and I HATE items that overlap too much, like TP's THREE bomb bags, it was uneccesary.
So, if the water cog can't Freeze, Melt, or really do water, what can it do? I'm still game for the Bubblebeam, where you can trap enemies long enough to deal with others, but the Wave idea is looking better and better. Perhaps, like you say, it could be used for things like powering water wheels, which makes me think currents. Not sure if you've ever played WoW, but one of my favorite spells in the game, was druid's Typhoon, which shoots a big wave of magic water. Pretty much, it just launched people backwards. What I'm suggesting, is a wave that expands (wider) as it goes out, to pretty much shove everyone away, giving Link room to breath, while propelling him forward in water, or something, like, if he swam into it, like, swim dash chased it, he could be like, super boosted or something.

Anyways: Big, concussive wave that shoves people, and makes Link go faster in water. Potential to overcome currents and power water wheels, as well as douse fires.

I still like steam, but I don't think it's different enough from the fire arrows. Perhaps if we only had one, like, only having Ice arrows, it'd be a sort of interesting flip flop of the norm. Who knows.


-------


The Shadow Duo. One, mirror shield doesn't really fit well, I don't think it could be implemented well enough, or provide much further use, than in the Sheikah dungeon, which should be only sheikah, no gerudo and whatnot. For one, I'd suggest something to do with stealth, and the other to do with energy and statues. Whether the item has to do with the statues, and the cog to do with stealth is up in the air.

So: Controllable Statues
      Invisibility
      Revealed Illusions

appear to be the biggest points for Sheikah stuff. I REALLY don't see the need for another "daze" cog, as we already have 2, which is kinda pushing it, but not a third. Otherwise i'd suggest a momentary invisibility due to flashbang / deku nut.

Anyways, my ideas are as follows:

Shadow Cog: An Elegy of Emptiness type effect: Links "Soul" is manifested into a statue, ala MM, that mirrors his movements. At any time, the Real Link and the Statue Link can "Switch Places", so if you sneak your guy past a guard who detects living things, and then switch, you're safe. Anywho, this ability can be used on Statues, allowing you to have a mirror Statue, who copies your movements. I dunno.

The Shadow Whip idea Max presented is easily my favorite, but if instead of dazing / confusing the enemy, it made it hostile to other enemies, sort of like Mind Control, but without Control, so you bop a Moblin, who then runs around hunting Octorocks, sound sweet to me. Then, when used on a statue, it activates it, or when used on something like a pot or switch, it could shudder, expell smoke, and then shatter or flip. Shadow Whip Cog has my vote.

For the Item, there's stealth, stealth or mirror shield, ie, light, and I don't like lights.

So, ideas.

Invisibility Cloak: Dur.... um, it makes Link Inwisible, like in LTTP... yay.
...
Lens of Truth: Dur... um, lets Link see tings thats inwisible, like in OOT... yay.
...
Um... lets see.

But seriously: perhaps a Cane of Myrna or whatever from LTTP, that lit up invisible platforms and made them solid, or like sensing / LoT, and perhaps have a "Use for Treasure" kind of thing, so that you could find that rat that ate the key, or something. I've got no ideas for this one really. Having a cloak that makes you invisible to mundane things, but drives you mad and makes you a target for the ghosty ones is probably my best idea.

What'd'ya think?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 17, 2011, 09:14:43 pm
I love the elegy of emptiness, and I love puzzles where things mirror you. OOX were the only ones that really used them that I remember, but limiting the statue to mirroring seems... Limiting! Haha.
Oh, my battery is about the die, but, I'm also really partial to the shadow whip. And yes, dazing enemies, AGAIN is dumb. So am I SO for the idea of turning them against other enemies. For consideration, what if they just attacked randomly. Sometimes you, sometimes others... But that wouldn't be very useful unless they were also given some kind of doom effect, where they attacked maybe you, maybe not, for a little until they died. But yeah, attacking other enemies, for sure.

I also like bubbles, but it's hard to think of applications for them. Can you do a write up for the typhoon cog idea? I'm down for it, at least considering it in more detail. I'll add more to this when I get home to my charger...

Also, what if we combined the lens of truth and invisibility? Combined items seem to be a thing we're doing, haha. Anyway, probably not, I don't see how that'd go different than the old shadow cloak. I gotta go, but I'll be back to edit this.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 18, 2011, 04:38:36 am
Typhoon Cog:

   Land Function: When Link uses the Typhoon Cog on land, it creates an outward moving wall of water that pushes enemies away from him. This also is able to shatter pots and weak structures such as bushes.

   Water Function: When Link uses the Typhoon Cog in/into water, it creates a vortex of churning water that draws everything nearby into it, (potentially expelling them), gathering them up nicely. This also has the effect of disabling whirlpools (as previously mentioned, like in pokemon) allowing access to different water areas.

-

Shadow Cloak:

Use: Conceals Link from the vision of most enemies, but makes him visible to others, such as spirits and ghosts. While invisible, Link can see invisible things previously unobservable, but distinguishing things that were previously visible becomes a challenge.

Obtained: Sheikah Temple

-

I dunno, I'm too tired for anything more than that, but I'd say, once we nail down the Water Cog, which now sounds similar to the Nature Cog, and keep everything seperate, only have one daze, one confuse, one damage, and one ________ cog, then we can probably say goodnight to this whole shabang.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on November 18, 2011, 07:53:22 am
Man, really frustrating, I tried to post this three times last night, server wasn't responding... Hopefully it'll work, and the university's Internet will be more cooperative.
I've been having this problem as well... seems fine today now, though.

Quote
The sheikah gave the power to control statues they constructed, but the way the statues are powered is with dark magic of the sheikah tribe, which the sheikah could not entirely control. My impression of them is that they dabble in dark forces a bit beyond their understanding.
I know this is unrelated to the item itself, but does this mean that there will be a rather "corrupt", or "dark" sheikah featured as a villain?

Quote
As a result of this dark magic, when the power is used on things other then the statues, it inflicts the target with terrifying illusions of wraiths. These hallucinations daze the target and perhaps paralyze them. Perhaps they are slowly poisoned by the stress on their minds, even. But these results are just a side effect of the main purpose of the cog's magic, which is to power the ancient sheikah statues, which do various things. Such as protecting the Celestial Clock.
Quote
Shadow Cog: An Elegy of Emptiness type effect: Links "Soul" is manifested into a statue, ala MM, that mirrors his movements. At any time, the Real Link and the Statue Link can "Switch Places", so if you sneak your guy past a guard who detects living things, and then switch, you're safe. Anywho, this ability can be used on Statues, allowing you to have a mirror Statue, who copies your movements. I dunno.
That's a good idea, in regards to the Elegy of Emptiness-type effect. I had an idea which could expand the light/dark effects based on your area. Take for example, the Shadow Cog. Perhaps it can be given different or extended functionality in the boss room. I'm going to actually just introduce several examples rather than define a specific example as I think this aspect could be defined once we have an idea of when this idea would be used and for what bosses. (i.e. Add "shadow" effect to attacks that could allow Link to deflect certain projectiles with his sword)

-- My two cents. Oh, seems Dark-Hylian already had the idea of multiple uses in place. Guess that means the idea is a good one if more than one people are thinking about it!

EDIT: Adding more content.

In regards to the Water Cog(Typhoon Cog?), I was just going to add that there could also be ice-breaking functionality added to the list of water functions, since you're moving water. (i.e. Ice can be broken to expose water so you can form a stream of water that can be used to form an ice-bridge. You're moving water, so I would assume this would mean forming a pathway to maybe a previously unreachable area). We can do a lot with the water functionality. Take for example, the Water Temple from Majora's Mask, with its use of water pipelines and water spouts... You could use the Typhoon Cog to move water and create a rise in pressure, forming a water spout that turns a wheel.

I apologize if my posting style is kinda funky, I'll change my ways if necessary.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 18, 2011, 08:13:18 pm
Actually, something you said gave me an idea. Perhaps, the water cog could be used primarily for defense, or for removing whirlpools. If you take it on those levels, you could have kind of a spiral, water shield, that blunts or blocks any incoming damage. Then we have:

Forest Cog: Daze
Stone Cog: Damage
Shadow Cog: Confuse
Water Cog: Deflect

I think having the water cog's ability be defensive would be a good fit. But I'm still struggling to like any of the concepts. Steam still has my vote, but it'd be hard to do =/ I think the water cog should have a defensive or 'Not dazing, confusing, or directly damaging effect, such as... protection for Link, etc.'

@thestig - I thought, I havn't looked into it, the villain was Ganondorf...
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 18, 2011, 09:15:17 pm
Here's what I know about story so far, but as it isn't in the current design information, it is presumably still debatable. My plan is to look it over with the current team once the gameplay is fixed down.
http://www.zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=38276.0 (http://www.zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=38276.0)

It's a solid story, interesting but not too complicated, has multiple conflicts that get resolved with the main one, and fits the zelda style narrative great. We'll definitely change some of this, especially as it goes into a lot of details that involve things such as items we've taken away. But I think the gist of it will stay the same. I'd like that, anyway, but again, it's up to this team. But not yet!
Anyway, point of this tangent was, nope, no Sheikah villain. The comments on the sheikah's nature were just background information, and opinions on it at that. Ganondorf is indeed the main villain.

Back to items though!

To address these in the order they were brought up, basically, Stig, what do you mean about items having additional abilities in boss rooms? I feel like you could look at that two ways, like,  you could mean that, say, the magnetic gloves in the boss room can repel the projectiles the boss shoots at you, because they're magnetically charged. Or you could be meaning that using the magnetic gloves in the boss room allows you to shoot fire from your sword. The difference, although the second example is a  bit extreme for emphasis, is that the first way is the item doing the same thing it always does, the same way as always, but due to particular things in the boss room, it has a new effect. The second way is the item doing things it's never done, or doing things in a way it's never done, which is confusing for the player. I'm all in support of the first way, but that won't be addressed until we do enemies, presuming we're doing bosses. Which I think we'll probably wait on until the levels team defines the dungeons a bit more, so we'll have a theme, sort of. Of course, the boss might define the theme, so maybe we won't work entirely independently.

I agree that the elegy of emptiness was cool, and can be a useful thing for puzzles, and especially like the mirror idea, because that adds in a combat application, like if you swung your sword, your mirror would to. BUT, what item would this be tied to, the shadow cog? If so, that would have to replace the statues application, and honestly, if we've got mirror images an involved as moving and potentially attacking, that's more of a whole item unto itself. It seems a bit much to assign to one cog. Perhaps this mirror thing could be involved with the shadow cloak? This could reconcile a lot of ideas about these items:

Putting on the shadow cloak makes you invisible to some enemies, and makes illusions' truth more apparent (ie, fake doors will take on a slightly different color, there will be a haze where an invisible object is like a platform or chest, etc), but attracts sheikah wraiths, as you're in their realm. When you hold down the button, you create an illusory, mirrored copy of yourself to sort of replace you. The mirror moves as an inverse to your movements, and when you attack, it does to. It probably won't be able to use any of your other items , though. The mirror copy can be used to solve puzzles like holding down switches and hitting multiple things at once.

This seems to reconcile a few different ideas, but would probably need to be tested. If this doesn't seem to work out, I'm also quite down with the idea of using the cane of brynna/samaria/whatever. I just re-bought LTTP (my sisters apparently sold my old copy), but I'm not that far yet, just beat the eastern palace and the armos knights. By the way, studying dungeons from different games is a must when you're making your own. Just studying one game isn't NEARLY as helpful.


For the water cog, YES, NYRU'S LOVE type item! Haha, defense never occurred to me, but that's actually a great idea. When you use the water or steam cog, you surround yourself with a spinning veil of water or steam that deflects attacks while your magic holds out, using it in water creates a whirlpool which can defend you from enemies and negate other whirlpools.
Do whirlpools only spin a particularly way in life, like Clockwise in the southern hemisphere or something? The water cog would spin the other way, and negate them.

Also, I said water/steam, because steam could still work. You surround yourself with a spinning cloud of steam, and it protects you. You could, in water, perhaps evaporate the whirlpools? Or perhaps cause a ranged thing, where you sort of boiled the water in front of you, and it was a ranged attack you could use in water? You'd shoot a wave of boiling water, which could hit enemies, and start waterwheels. And then when you used the defensive veil on land in the proper places, the steam could be directed into some kind of pipe or something and operate a steam-powered machine.
Of course, what I'm mostly in favor of is the Nyru's Love type item. The defensive aspect. The other ideas are just ideas.

Also, thanks for analyzing the effects of the cogs as a whole, I really should have done that. Of course, this is just a brainstorming topic, technically, but we're using it to define specifically, haha. I might add, besides the dazing of the Forest cog, it might also knock back.

Also, an idea I have for the last few items is this, after a little more discussion of the steam/water cog, we should have two basic options, one of either steam or water offensively, the other defensively with perhaps some other applications. We'll pick the better option, do a writeup, and then ratify it. How does a ratification system for the rest of the items sound? Now that we've got four of us on the team, it'll be a bit harder to come to conclusions. Not too much harder, though, because it's still pretty small.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 21, 2011, 09:27:38 pm
Okay, sorry for the double post guys, I'm just slightly alarmed by the way the activity in this topic was suddenly beheaded. I know it's only been three days, but we were going at a speed of two or three posts a day (there were NINE between the 17th and 18th) and then three days with nothing is kinda wierd. Was it something I said? Haha, but really, as the leader of the game design division, I'm planning the way we'll figure design the game out, but when we're brainstorming and deciding, I'm only as authoritative as each of you, so if I ever come off as over authoritative or bossy or anything, you're all free to argue with me. Like when I was pulling for the spinner, thanks for pointing out how it was a terrible idea, Dark Hylian.
ANYWAY, back to business, tangents!

SO, moral of the story, what's up, where'd everybody go? As a response to that, I'm just gonna sum everything up. We've got all the items decided so far except the shadow temple item and cog. However, these were decided when it was basically only Dark Hylian and I, so I thought I'd gather all the item writeups together once more, so Mirby and Stig could look 'em over, make any suggestions, if you guys dislike the way anything's worded or something. The most original items, the bomb cannon, and kinda the magnet gloves, those are the most subject to change. Things like the bow, I don't know what you'd suggest. Perhaps a 360 degree ish aiming thing? I'm not actually sure if that'd be better, somebody would have to tell me from having played games both ways.

The most complete list of main items so far:


Thief Bracers
Found in Hyrule Town

Pressing the button next to certain locks allows you to pick them. Using them away from locks would do nothing. Each of the cogs can be individually equipped to the bracers, and using the bracers next to locks then would allow you to pick special locks which correspond to the type of cog equipped. Using the bracers away from a lock with cogs equipped will result in that cog’s special attack.

Boomerang
Found in the forest, needed to get into the temple.

Pressing the button throws the boomerang, which goes in a straight line in the direction you're facing for a bit less than half the screen, then comes back toward you, to wherever you may have moved since throwing it.
When enemies are hit by the boomerang, they're stunned, some weak enemies may take damage. Impact switches (activated by striking) can be activated with the boomerang, and perhaps some specific things hanging from ropes or vines can be cut down.


Hookshot
Found in the forest temple, used first to traverse the forest canopy, going from tree to tree and branch to branch.

When you press the button, the shooting end extends on a chain from the grip. When the hook end hits your target, it stuns enemies and removes whatever power ups they might have, destroys some things like pots, latches and pulls in light objects, and drags link toward larger anchored objects it can attach to. The hookshot can drag you across gaps, activate switches if they're close enough and the right type, as well as be useful in combat.
A hookshot is used by one man in a port town as a tool to pull ships in to the docks, but was discontinued because it just kept pulling him into the sides of boats (not really relevant... Haha)


Flippers
Given to you by a member of the Zora Royal family after you rescue him from the cave where they were stored. Used to rescue the remaining Zora royalty and enter the water dungeon.

Once you have the flippers, you can swim and dive. Swimming is standard Zelda, you blub blub along, press the action button to dash, b button to dive. Diving in shallow water lets you dodge enemies. But diving in certain deep waters lets you enter another under water map, like OOX and pokemon's HM dive.

The under water parts could be either side scrolling or like other maps, or perhaps some of both. You can use your sword while diving, but not swimming, both on side scrolling maps as well as top down under water maps. Most other items wouldn't work while diving; however, some would, such as the water cog.



Magnetic Gloves
Found in the water dungeon

Pressing the button activates the magnetic gloves, one polarity at a time. Pressing the equivalent of the R trigger switches polarity instantly. The magnetic charge is active for as long as you hold down the button.
When the magnetic gloves are activated, a strong magnetic pulse is sent out. Items of opposite polarity are attracted to it, and if they're mobile, they'll head toward Link. If they're stationary, Link will be dragged toward them. Items of opposite polarity will be repulsed away from Link, or push him away, depending on whether or not they're stationary.
When the magnetic gloves are equipped, Link can use them to climb metal walls and attach himself to magnetic platforms and cranes, particularly in the Goron dungeon and Gorons use these to mine. Certain switches can also be toggled with the magnetic gloves, but only when they're in range.


Bow and Arrow
Found in the Goron mountains, needed to access the Goron mines.

Pressing the button fires an arrow in the direction Link is facing. It does not go the entire length of the screen, but the majority of it. If an arrow hits an object, it will stop, but they can fly over certain low fences and barriers.
The bow and arrow can be used to hit enemies from afar. It does minor damage to enemies. The projectiles can also be used to hit basic impact switches that are out of reach, eyeball switches, and when necessary, knock some hanging items down.
Obviously, you need arrows to shoot.

Bomb Cannon
Found in the Goron Mines
Pressing the button pops out a bomb, which will land in front of you.holding the button will charge up the cannon, which will shoot a bomb a distance directly proportional to how long you charge for. The bomb shoots out and will either land, if the trajectory is uninterrupted, and spark for a little time before exploding, or if it collides with some objects it will explode on impact. Certain things cannot be destroyed unless they're struck by a bomb moving with sufficient speed. Bombs do lots of damage to enemies and the structural integrity of specific things such as walls. In certain areas, a bomb will clear a tunnel through something weak when shot.
Obviously, shooting the cannon uses up a bomb.
Along with the item, you gain the ability to carry bombs, which will hereafter be found randomly in grass and stuff, and sold by some merchants. Bombs, like arrows, are not used on their own, though. The capacity of bombs you can initially carry will depend on how many puzzles use them, but probably about thirty. This can be upgraded through side quests.

Fire and Ice Arrows
Found in Gerudo Fortress before entering the Valley of Death.

When aiming the bow, but before releasing it, you can press the equivalent of the R trigger to switch types of arrows. The selected type remains equipped to the bow until you switch again or unequip the bow from its button.
Fire arrows could burn things, to light torches and open pathways blocked with wood. Ice arrows could freeze things to use as stepping stones, or freezing some things would make them breakable, for instance freezing a certain type of plant would make it so you could shatter it and get past.
Using the fire or ice arrows requires magic which is used up based in how many arrows you shoot, not how long you aim the bow for. I.e., it takes 5 points to shoot a fire arrow, no matter how long you charge the arrow in your bow for.



and then the shadow cloak thing, whatever.
SO, Dark Hylian, if you've got any changes you'd like, you too, but Mirby and Stig, I dunno if you've looked these over yet.

Now, the steam cog seems like the most different from the other cogs, and still useful. I'll do a quick writeup for it:

Steam Cog
Found at the end of the water dungeon
Using the bracers with the steam cog activated creates a spinning veil of mist around you that protects you from enemy attacks for as long as you hold the button down, but drains magic pretty quick.  Just tapping the button creates a burst of steam in front of you that can activate some steam machinery. Using the steam cog in water boosts you forward and damages any enemies you hit, similar to how Zora Link used magic under water.


As for the sheikah cog, the entering the illusion realm and creating a mirrored copy of yourself in the visible realm (when the button's held down) seems like it reconciles the most ideas. However, is it a good idea in itself?

So guys, I dunno what's been going on the last few days, maybe everybody was just busy over the weekend, but now let's get back on it! All the items are almost done!


Also, again, sorry for the ridiculously long post.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 21, 2011, 10:44:09 pm
Haha, it's alright. I only didn't reply because there wasn't much to reply too. I think it looks pretty good, the shadow cloak and the shadow cog are the most contested issues at the moment, but the "Shadow Whip - Confuse / Control" for the cog, and the "You can't see me, I can't see you" Cloak are probably the best options. For the bow, I suggest only 8 directions, for coding and graphics ease. 360 doesn't seem feasable, or easy to use for the player. Anyways, the boomerang could perhaps have a lock-on mechanism, or it could bounce? I think if we keep what we have, it's pretty original, and doesn't need much help. The hookshot needs more than just a make-over if it wants to feel different, like perhaps a new use, etc.

On the non-posting issue, I am currently planning a novel, and helping a friend with their game, so I'm really busy.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on November 23, 2011, 06:10:30 pm
Just checking in on progress due to the interest in the art division!  I like what I'm seeing, keep it up!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 24, 2011, 03:06:13 am
Alright guys, you heard the man, let's keep it up. I'm just gonna put this up now, so if anybody looks in over thanksgiving weekend. Any more comments on the listed items will be taken into account for the next few days, but after next week gets into full swing, they're gonna be finalised. Dark-Hylian, the bow. Yes. 8 Ways. That is definitely the way to go. I'll get back to the bow later in this post, I want to get these last two down, so we're gonna vote yea and nea on the different aspects of the steam cog and shadow cloak. Also, let me know if I've forgotten any aspects that seemed reasonable.

Steam Cog
-Defensive Steam Veil
-Powers up steam technology
-Boosts you in water
-Damages enemies you hit in water

Or

-Water based, surf like attack
-Hits enemies on land with wave, Pushes back
-Floods some things to solve puzzles
-Boosts you (surfin' Link) in water
OR
-creates whirlpool in water, drawing enemies in, disables other whirlpools.


I think that's all we had for this cog that didn't step on the toes of the fire and ice arrows.


Shadow Cloak
-Turns You Invisible to enemies

And/or

-Makes Enemies hard to see, but reveals the nature of illusions &invisible objects

And Or

-Creates a mirror Link that can attack and solve puzzles.


Again, of I've forgotten any reasonable aspects, let me know. I think we've discussed these things long enough that now we've all got opinions, so let's once and for all get em down.


Now, about the bow, yeah, eight ways is perfect. How are we going to do the in between directions, though? Link kinda needs to be able to hold the bow ready and still move to make use of the fire/ice arrows, if we switch WW style with the R button. Or does he? Perhaps Link can't move while holding the bow ready, but can spin and charge arrows with fire and ice. There would also be a cancel button.

Writeup:
Pressing the button puts you in aiming mode. You can spin eight directions, and switch between fire, ice, and regular. There is a cancel button to return to normal mode, and pressing the button again fires the arrow.
How does that sound? I don't mind if we debate some specifics of how the controls relate to items for a while, because we've definitely decided on what the item does, at least.

But the main thing is the shadow cloak and steam cog!

The secondary thing is the bow!

The tertiary thing is Dark Hylian's name, it's so long! Can I just call you Dark, or is that somebody else? Do you have another name I could call you?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on November 24, 2011, 08:27:33 am
Back to items though!

To address these in the order they were brought up, basically, Stig, what do you mean about items having additional abilities in boss rooms?
I mean like, let's say Link's Master Sword in Zelda 1 could only shoot flying swords if Link were in the boss room? (Though, there would have to be RELEVANCE to the idea... I'm not supposing we just randomly add extra abilities to the items for no real reason when you get into the boss room... i.e. Steam Cog at the Water Temple resonates with the boss activating something?) I was just suggesting this because I feel it let's us be a little more creative about our design. Like, I feel we could have the design of our dungeons go hand in hand with the bosses and items you get from the temples, if that makes sense.

Quote
I feel like you could look at that two ways, like,  you could mean that, say, the magnetic gloves in the boss room can repel the projectiles the boss shoots at you, because they're magnetically charged. Or you could be meaning that using the magnetic gloves in the boss room allows you to shoot fire from your sword. The difference, although the second example is a  bit extreme for emphasis, is that the first way is the item doing the same thing it always does, the same way as always, but due to particular things in the boss room, it has a new effect.
Looks like you were thinking along the same lines as I was!

Quote
The second way is the item doing things it's never done, or doing things in a way it's never done, which is confusing for the player. I'm all in support of the first way, but that won't be addressed until we do enemies, presuming we're doing bosses. Which I think we'll probably wait on until the levels team defines the dungeons a bit more, so we'll have a theme, sort of. Of course, the boss might define the theme, so maybe we won't work entirely independently.
Yeah, I think just randomly throwing the extra abilities in there is unnecessary and will do more harm than good.

Quote
BUT, what item would this be tied to, the shadow cog? If so, that would have to replace the statues application, and honestly, if we've got mirror images an involved as moving and potentially attacking, that's more of a whole item unto itself. It seems a bit much to assign to one cog. Perhaps this mirror thing could be involved with the shadow cloak? This could reconcile a lot of ideas about these items:
This would create INSANE puzzles, actually. Imagine having the elegy of emptiness allow you to assign an item to a dummy. Ah, well, I'm getting ahead of myself here...

Quote
Putting on the shadow cloak makes you invisible to some enemies, and makes illusions' truth more apparent (ie, fake doors will take on a slightly different color, there will be a haze where an invisible object is like a platform or chest, etc), but attracts sheikah wraiths, as you're in their realm.
I was just gonna say, this is similar to the wolf senses in Twilight Princess.

Quote
When you hold down the button, you create an illusory, mirrored copy of yourself to sort of replace you. The mirror moves as an inverse to your movements, and when you attack, it does to. It probably won't be able to use any of your other items , though. The mirror copy can be used to solve puzzles like holding down switches and hitting multiple things at once.
Well, this shoots down my initial idea or unless there would be a way to somehow have the copy have an item assigned to it.

Quote
This seems to reconcile a few different ideas, but would probably need to be tested. If this doesn't seem to work out, I'm also quite down with the idea of using the cane of brynna/samaria/whatever. I just re-bought LTTP (my sisters apparently sold my old copy), but I'm not that far yet, just beat the eastern palace and the armos knights. By the way, studying dungeons from different games is a must when you're making your own. Just studying one game isn't NEARLY as helpful.
I recommend you check out http://bszelda.zeldalegends.net/sekibanfiles.shtml and run it in bsnes or snes9x, if you can (alternatively, you could scroll down to the youtube videos and watch how the games were originally played as there's missing data still that's being recovered... tl;dr on the reason why just ask in a PM if you want to know details). This is an extension of ALTTP, but with a different story + different dungeon styles somewhat. I totally agree with this, though. It's best just to study the different approaches Nintendo had than to focus in on one thing.

Quote
For the water cog, YES, NYRU'S LOVE type item! Haha, defense never occurred to me, but that's actually a great idea. When you use the water or steam cog, you surround yourself with a spinning veil of water or steam that deflects attacks while your magic holds out, using it in water creates a whirlpool which can defend you from enemies and negate other whirlpools.
Do whirlpools only spin a particularly way in life, like Clockwise in the southern hemisphere or something? The water cog would spin the other way, and negate them.
+1 here, too... This reminds me of Katara's abilities from Avatar: The Last Airbender. That being said, I also think the water cog should be able to manipulate the temperature of water. i.e. cold(freezing water)/hot(forming steam or melting water). But how to decide which happens when? I think the state of the water should decide that. If it's not frozen, freeze it. If it's frozen, melt it. To form steam, perhaps make it an action command?

Quote
Also, I said water/steam, because steam could still work. You surround yourself with a spinning cloud of steam, and it protects you. You could, in water, perhaps evaporate the whirlpools? Or perhaps cause a ranged thing, where you sort of boiled the water in front of you, and it was a ranged attack you could use in water? You'd shoot a wave of boiling water, which could hit enemies, and start waterwheels. And then when you used the defensive veil on land in the proper places, the steam could be directed into some kind of pipe or something and operate a steam-powered machine.
Of course, what I'm mostly in favor of is the Nyru's Love type item. The defensive aspect. The other ideas are just ideas.
Maybe this approach would be better than taking my approach. I was thinking broad on the idea(perhaps too broad). I'm in favor of the defensive approach and actually... come to think of it, going the steam approach would definitely fit the steampunk theme of the project better. (It comes off as steampunk to me, at least)

Quote
Also, an idea I have for the last few items is this, after a little more discussion of the steam/water cog, we should have two basic options, one of either steam or water offensively, the other defensively with perhaps some other applications. We'll pick the better option, do a writeup, and then ratify it. How does a ratification system for the rest of the items sound? Now that we've got four of us on the team, it'll be a bit harder to come to conclusions. Not too much harder, though, because it's still pretty small.
I have no objections for a ratifying system. Just as long as we can continue processing input and worrying less about political squabbles, I'm all for it!



Alright guys, you heard the man, let's keep it up. I'm just gonna put this up now, so if anybody looks in over thanksgiving weekend. Any more comments on the listed items will be taken into account for the next few days, but after next week gets into full swing, they're gonna be finalised. Dark-Hylian, the bow. Yes. 8 Ways. That is definitely the way to go. I'll get back to the bow later in this post, I want to get these last two down, so we're gonna vote yea and nea on the different aspects of the steam cog and shadow cloak. Also, let me know if I've forgotten any aspects that seemed reasonable.
8 directional arrows +1. Make this apply to any other long-ranged object as well. Hookshot, boomerang, etc. in my opinion. Otherwise you're going to have inconsistencies with the overall item design.

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Steam Cog
-Defensive Steam Veil
-Powers up steam technology
-Boosts you in water
-Damages enemies you hit in water

Or

-Water based, surf like attack
-Hits enemies on land with wave, Pushes back
-Floods some things to solve puzzles
-Boosts you (surfin' Link) in water
OR
-creates whirlpool in water, drawing enemies in, disables other whirlpools.


I think that's all we had for this cog that didn't step on the toes of the fire and ice arrows.
I'll fetch my ideas here for you, too:
- Temperature Manipulation; effect on water varies depending on the state of the water. (i.e. if water unfrozen, freeze. if water frozen, unfreeze. steam effect is an action command on unfrozen water?)

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Shadow Cloak
-Turns You Invisible to enemies
This follows the same design as how Nintendo had it in ALTTP.

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And/or

-Makes Enemies hard to see, but reveals the nature of illusions &invisible objects
Now this goes into the Lens of Truth-esque functionality. Don't really know about this one...

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And Or

-Creates a mirror Link that can attack and solve puzzles.
Now, I have a suggestion. How about having a way to give the shadow cloak idea #1 and this idea? Certain conditions can allow you to position a dummy Link. i.e. elegy of emptiness is played with ocarina while wearing shadow cloak?

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Again, of I've forgotten any reasonable aspects, let me know. I think we've discussed these things long enough that now we've all got opinions, so let's once and for all get em down.


Now, about the bow, yeah, eight ways is perfect. How are we going to do the in between directions, though? Link kinda needs to be able to hold the bow ready and still move to make use of the fire/ice arrows, if we switch WW style with the R button. Or does he? Perhaps Link can't move while holding the bow ready, but can spin and charge arrows with fire and ice. There would also be a cancel button.
Let's do both. If the key is only pressed, just have Link fire the bow in the direction he was facing. If the key is held down, keep Link in position but make the directional buttons change which direction he's facing rather than moving him. Once the key is released, fire arrows.

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Writeup:
Pressing the button puts you in aiming mode. You can spin eight directions, and switch between fire, ice, and regular. There is a cancel button to return to normal mode, and pressing the button again fires the arrow.
How does that sound? I don't mind if we debate some specifics of how the controls relate to items for a while, because we've definitely decided on what the item does, at least.
Read my idea above, I think switching modes like that would be too tedious in the heat of battle. Though we can test this theory by developing a quick prototyping solution to be certain ^^. I think this aspect should just be noted down until we can get a prototype up and running.

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But the main thing is the shadow cloak and steam cog!

The secondary thing is the bow!
The Shadow Cog is especially interesting given its "weird" nature. It's weird to me at least.

The tertiary thing is Dark Hylian's name, it's so long! Can I just call you Dark, or is that somebody else? Do you have another name I could call you?
[/quote]
You can call me "Jon", if you wish. ;) Or "The" because it'll make your sentences sound more confusing. Haha, just kidding.. call me whatever! Since we're on this matter.


Max, I apologize for failing to live up to my word in responding to this topic one time per day. To make up for that, next time you reply, I'll be keeping a close watch on this thread.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on November 27, 2011, 12:28:43 am
Mmkay. Sorry for my absence, family and travelling, etc. you know how it goes.

Shadow Cog: Whips a tendril of shadowy energy in front of Link, confusing the enemy it touches; this causes it to attack other enemies in the general area. When the tendril is used on a statue, the statue comes to life, and fulfills its purpose, or is put under the control of the Player.

Bow 'n' Arrow: Should function the same as in Minish Cap, although changing in direction (4 or 8) should be allowable. Using a "R" or "Select" or whatever, should switch the function, Ice Arrows, Fire Arrows, etc.

@ Jon The Stig :P - Temperature Cog, we can't do it. That intrudes WAY too much into Fire and Ice Arrow territory, which is where we've been trying to stay away from. I think it could perhaps be an ice sheild, but IMO, the water cog works the least well for a defensive one, I'd choose the Stone Cog for a defensive one, water for an actual attack.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 27, 2011, 03:50:14 am
DH (or so I've dubbed you for the purposes of expediting my posts)(if that's okay with you), I understand about traveling and all, that's cool. Did you get the PM I sent out to the group?

Stig (you name was already short enough, haha), haha, I usually re-read posts a number of times as I'm responding, but I end up re-reading what I've already said to myself because of your quotes, haha. You mentioned that if anything about your posting style was inconvenient or anything in the past to let you know, so I don't mean any offence, but do you read all the way through previous posts before responding? I feel like you quote something, respond to it, and then after quoting the next thing, you change what you said in your first quote. It's not a big deal, I was just wondering.

So, first off, to both of you... You kind of neglected to make any decisions either way about the cog and cloak. You just responded about pros and cons, which is kinda just gonna drag out the process of deciding on items, so... Well, that being said, DH, you're right again about the stone cog being more practical for defence. I mean, it is kinda more expected though, that stone is defence, but we could switch them. The stone cog creates a rock kind of shield around Link (also like the last air bender, haha), and the water cog does a kind of attack that hurts enemies in a radius, either by steaming them or splashing them, whatever.
So is that a better thing? Guys, decision time is here.

After we divide for sure, which is defence, which is attack, we can assign a lil' secondary ability, like if it works waterwheels or steam technology or affects rocks.

Secondly, the shadow cloak. I have no idea exactly what aspects you guys are in favor of. Again, I'm thinking there are three aspects:

Invisibility to enemies
Noticing illusions
Mirrored clone

What are you guys in favor of?

I like invisibility and illusions. I think the mirror clone is cool, but might not work well, the others seem like they'd work fine. But again, which do you guys think? I think I'm gonna go ahead and set a deadline of Monday evening after ten, we're gonna go with whatever seems most in favor of at that point. If this seems too sudden/soon, say so. Its totally reasonable that that might be too soon, I just think we're close enough that it isn't.

Finally, the bow. Stig, yeah, your idea seems to work a lot better than what I said. But like DH said, and WW proved, having another button assigned to switch types of arrows works fine, too. I mean, if we test it and it doesnt work, then that's okay, we'll take it away, but I'm pretty sure it'll work. Holding the button puts an arrow in the bow, you can then turn 8 ways. Pressing r or whatever changes types. Releasing the button fires. This way you can aim and also fire rapidly. And it's still simple.

Also, the same method could be applied to all ranged objects easily, yeah. Hold boomerang, face direction, release to throw. Hold Hookshot button, aim, release to shoot. The bombs cannon presents a little problem, as how long you hold determines charging and distance, doesn't it? Perhaps you could hold the button to face a direction, and hold R to charge?

Anyway, remember, let's decide on the shadow cloak and water (/stone) cogs first. Everything else is just details.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on November 27, 2011, 07:22:33 am
Stig (you name was already short enough, haha), haha, I usually re-read posts a number of times as I'm responding, but I end up re-reading what I've already said to myself because of your quotes, haha. You mentioned that if anything about your posting style was inconvenient or anything in the past to let you know, so I don't mean any offence, but do you read all the way through previous posts before responding? I feel like you quote something, respond to it, and then after quoting the next thing, you change what you said in your first quote. It's not a big deal, I was just wondering.
That's probably because I was responding to the post as I was breaking them down in quotes and then moving onto the next posts. Some decisions I wasn't sure on, so I just figured it would be better to do that incase if I miss something. Sorry if that's causing confusion. Though I do re-read my posts just to make sure they make sense. I also just mind-dump in my post which I probably shouldn't do since it just introduces me coming up with an idea then disagreeing with myself later..

One thing I'd like to really point out, I didn't even think we were even deciding on the Stone Cog. In fact, I'm not even sure what the functionality behind it is. All that's in this topic are ideas that were thrown out there and certain scenarios of how it could be used. But again, that doesn't give me anything to work with. Ideas floating in the air != a defined specification.

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So, first off, to both of you... You kind of neglected to make any decisions either way about the cog and cloak.
I did have a response but it seems you're not looking for changing the ideas any further:
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Now, I have a suggestion. How about having a way to give the shadow cloak idea #1 and this idea? Certain conditions can allow you to position a dummy Link. i.e. elegy of emptiness is played with ocarina while wearing shadow cloak?

I did like idea #3 the best, but that functionality (in the Zelda series) was already provided by the Elegy of Emptiness. Idea #2 comes into the area of the Lens of Truth. So, to give you a for sure definite answer, #1 is the best idea in my opinion. The functionality fits the name quite well, and is "close enough" to how the Magic Cape (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Cape) in ALTTP worked, but I like this idea better.

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I like invisibility and illusions. I think the mirror clone is cool, but might not work well, the others seem like they'd work fine.
I think mirror clone "could" work just because of how well the clones worked in Majora's Mask for Stone Tower Temple. But hey, I'm going to reiterate what I mentioned earlier in this post: the cloak works fine as an invisibility cloak and if we wanted to bring in clones into the puzzle formula, then the Elegy of Emptiness would be a good way to go about that. It's as simple as that.

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But again, which do you guys think? I think I'm gonna go ahead and set a deadline of Monday evening after ten, we're gonna go with whatever seems most in favor of at that point. If this seems too sudden/soon, say so. Its totally reasonable that that might be too soon, I just think we're close enough that it isn't.
My situation should be sorted by then.

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Finally, the bow. Stig, yeah, your idea seems to work a lot better than what I said. But like DH said, and WW proved, having another button assigned to switch types of arrows works fine, too.
 I mean, if we test it and it doesnt work, then that's okay, we'll take it away, but I'm pretty sure it'll work. Holding the button puts an arrow in the bow, you can then turn 8 ways. Pressing r or whatever changes types. Releasing the button fires. This way you can aim and also fire rapidly. And it's still simple.
You know what, you and DH are very right, WW did have multiple button assignments for weapons. I like the sound of the bolded part of this quote. It seems like it's going to be quite an awesome idea. xD

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Also, the same method could be applied to all ranged objects easily, yeah. Hold boomerang, face direction, release to throw. Hold Hookshot button, aim, release to shoot. The bombs cannon presents a little problem, as how long you hold determines charging and distance, doesn't it? Perhaps you could hold the button to face a direction, and hold R to charge?
Just a thought, perhaps the direction should be determined by which direction Link is simply facing; have a button for going into an "aiming mode"(or maybe Link _can_ change direction in this mode too?). What you had for charge seemed fine, actually. :)

As for the other ranged items, it's like you've pointed out that they typically could follow that scheme.

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Anyway, remember, let's decide on the shadow cloak and water (/stone) cogs first. Everything else is just details.
Just to be clear: in regards to the shadow cloak, I am for the invisibility idea. For the Water Cog, I like the description if it were an offensive cog. But you know, scratch my opinion here because from what you're saying, the Water Cog and Stone Cog directly influence each other(i.e. one is offense, other defense).
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 27, 2011, 06:11:27 pm
Thanks for the ultra prompt reply, Stig, haha.

So yeah, this topic, and it's parameters and purpose... Haha, it's been through a lot. This started out as just brainstorming random ideas, then died, then revived as deciding for sure which items to include, by way of throwing out ideas, then honing them. So yeah, there's a lot of random ideas, then after those, there should be a refined decision on an item. A couple times, the items, as finalised, have been stated all together.

So, the shadow cloak, Stig votes invisibility! I've got it now.
I will say, though, that your reasoning is that the other options are covered by other items... Which we don't plan on using... Right? I mean, that is your reasoning, right? I mean, I'm not the item king, we could work in the elegy and lens, it's just that we were basically decided on a number of items, and then we decided which there were, so it doesn't really seem like there's room for any more. What I mean to say is that I don't feel as if adding in additional items, such as the lens or elegy of emptiness, would be best, so I'd rather make their abilities, if we decide to use them at all, avaliable through the shadow cloak, rather than through seperate items.

The water cog and stone cog confusion that suddenly popped up is a result of me coming up with ideas that were kinda dumb to begin with, then saying, okay, those are done.
We previously had the stone cog doing damage, and the water cog being defensive, when it would make more sense to do it opposite. DH pointed this out, and I was like, oh, hey... So that's why it's up for dispute. If I've made any silly oversights like this anywhere else, please say so.

So that's why the stone cog was suddenly back on the table. So then, you're also in favor of stone being defence, and water being offence? Cause that would make it unanimous. I'm not scratching your opinion, because it's exactly what I'm trying to find out, haha!



So, secondary things, all the projectile items, boomerang, bow, Hookshot, you couldn't move while firing them in other games anyway. So it's okay if you can't move while firing it in KoT either, I think. So holding the button, to face a direction more easily, seems like a good idea. Because I remember in ALTTP, it was really difficult to fire something diagonally, because I feel like you never faced that way naturally. Having a button to hold that allows you to turn, but not move, seems helpful to me.
The reason I'm thinking it'd be better to not connect the button that lets you turn to the button that charges the bomb cannon is this: suppose you need to shoot the cannon a shot way, diagonally. You hold the button, but accidentally turn too far, or whatever, it takes a ill bit to line yourself up just right. By the time you've faced the precise direction, the cannon cas charged more then necessary, and you overshoot your target!

Also, we might still want to consider if 8 way projectiles are best, of if it should be limited to 4 way for a reason. I mean, OOX, and perhaps MC (can't remember), did not use 8 way aiming, so maybe they left it out for a reason. I do think that it would allow for better puzzles and be helpful in fights, though. So I mean, I'm still in favor of it, just thought I would check.


Also, one of the reasons there's a little confusion about this stuff is that things like if Link can walk in 8 directions and how many buttons we'll have and what they'll do, that's all still technically undecided. That's because we, as the game design team, haven't started on that yet, because the game design team only sort of started through this topic, so we're doing this first... But yeah.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on November 27, 2011, 07:11:32 pm
Thanks for the ultra prompt reply, Stig, haha.

So yeah, this topic, and it's parameters and purpose... Haha, it's been through a lot. This started out as just brainstorming random ideas, then died, then revived as deciding for sure which items to include, by way of throwing out ideas, then honing them. So yeah, there's a lot of random ideas, then after those, there should be a refined decision on an item. A couple times, the items, as finalised, have been stated all together.
Yeah, I apologize me having a hard time following things. When I am put up to vote in a design decision, I like to be sure I know what's going on first! ^^

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So, the shadow cloak, Stig votes invisibility! I've got it now.
I will say, though, that your reasoning is that the other options are covered by other items... Which we don't plan on using... Right? I mean, that is your reasoning, right? I mean, I'm not the item king, we could work in the elegy and lens, it's just that we were basically decided on a number of items, and then we decided which there were, so it doesn't really seem like there's room for any more. What I mean to say is that I don't feel as if adding in additional items, such as the lens or elegy of emptiness, would be best, so I'd rather make their abilities, if we decide to use them at all, avaliable through the shadow cloak, rather than through seperate items.
You're right, part of my reasoning was behind the functionality being covered by other items(I had assumed we were using them.. especially Elegy of Emptiness due to its mention a few times in this thread).. though the main one was the idea behind the item name actually. "Shadow Cloak", might as well make it ironic and make the player invisible.  :P However, I'm not quite sure about adding in the other items. ....My thoughts are, we can cross that bridge if we must, but right now there are other important things going on. My decisions still stand. It would be cool if we could work in another ability into the Shadow Cloak; more or less the clone ability since that could be useful for puzzles. But hey, again, that might complicate things. To avoid complicating things, I'm fine with things as is. The ability works, makes sense, and is still useful for puzzles.

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The water cog and stone cog confusion that suddenly popped up is a result of me coming up with ideas that were kinda dumb to begin with, then saying, okay, those are done.
We previously had the stone cog doing damage, and the water cog being defensive, when it would make more sense to do it opposite. DH pointed this out, and I was like, oh, hey... So that's why it's up for dispute. If I've made any silly oversights like this anywhere else, please say so.
Yeah, I've seen Stone being for damage and water being for defensive... but that's not the reasoning behind the dispute. What does the Stone Cog do, really? There's an outline of the Water Cog based on multiple scenarios (whether it's defensive or not, plus one additional concept where it's a "Steam" Cog), which you were asking what I agreed with. Certainly, I can agree with one of those designs. But as for the stone cog, I can agree whether it's defensive or not... but what would that imply for the cog? But yeah, it seems how I was interpreting what you were asking for was completely different. And for that, I apologize.

Allow me to add another thought in regards to the Stone Cog while we're on this topic: I agree that it actually would be more ideal to have the Stone Cog defensive(imagine using that "stone ball" defense ability to roll around and trample enemies? You mentioned like in Avatar: The Last Airbender) while the Water Cog be offensive(I followed your description of the offensive Water Cog which was why I came to my conclusion).

^^ I know it's random to throw that in there, but hey... I got excited >_<.

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So, secondary things, all the projectile items, boomerang, bow, Hookshot, you couldn't move while firing them in other games anyway. So it's okay if you can't move while firing it in KoT either, I think. So holding the button, to face a direction more easily, seems like a good idea. Because I remember in ALTTP, it was really difficult to fire something diagonally, because I feel like you never faced that way naturally. Having a button to hold that allows you to turn, but not move, seems helpful to me.
The reason I'm thinking it'd be better to not connect the button that lets you turn to the button that charges the bomb cannon is this: suppose you need to shoot the cannon a shot way, diagonally. You hold the button, but accidentally turn too far, or whatever, it takes a ill bit to line yourself up just right. By the time you've faced the precise direction, the cannon cas charged more then necessary, and you overshoot your target!
You're right, I remember this being a pain in the butt if you were playing with the original SNES gamepad. You could fire diagonally, but it was a bit annoying in doing so! Also, this was why I suggested an "aiming mode" for this reason. It would disable your movement completely in exchange for being able to aim. So, it would be like using the Bomb Cannon on the boat in Wind Waker, I guess? The only issue I could see with this is that the bomb cannon will now be clunky. But see, this is the only way I can currently think of to avoid the problem you pointed out.


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Also, we might still want to consider if 8 way projectiles are best, of if it should be limited to 4 way for a reason. I mean, OOX, and perhaps MC (can't remember), did not use 8 way aiming, so maybe they left it out for a reason. I do think that it would allow for better puzzles and be helpful in fights, though. So I mean, I'm still in favor of it, just thought I would check.

Also, one of the reasons there's a little confusion about this stuff is that things like if Link can walk in 8 directions and how many buttons we'll have and what they'll do, that's all still technically undecided. That's because we, as the game design team, haven't started on that yet, because the game design team only sort of started through this topic, so we're doing this first... But yeah.
It could have been a technicality as to why they left it out, but who knows... it would probably be better to just leave the 8 projectiles idea in there for now, but leave a reminder note that we should probably test that aspect to really "finalize" that. Or unless that method is unacceptable and you need an answer now. If that's the case, then I'll just say that like you, I feel the 8 projectiles should be fine. So in other words, I'm in favor for it!

I apologize for the confusion I have had in my previous post. To make things easier on you, I'll put out my final thoughts here on both of the items:

Shadow Cloak
Having Link turn invisible to enemies is somewhat ironic to "Shadow" being in the item name because to the enemies, there won't be a shadow. For parts where you need to sneak around, this could prove useful or hell, even helpful. Imagine wanting to just fly through some parts of the dungeon that you've already finished up but still need to pass without getting harassed by the enemies?
That being said... I am in favor of "Invisibility to enemies". :)

Water Cog
Offensive, definitely. I could imagine really kicking some ass while "surf attacking", haha.

Stone Cog
Defensive, like you guys said. Though this does make the vote unanimous. When you referenced Avatar: The Last Air Bender, I couldn't help but think of the last episode when Aang morphed into a stone ball. I'll avoid getting ahead of myself here before really defining ideas, though.


So I hope that does clear things up!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 28, 2011, 01:50:30 am
Alright!

So yeah, the elegy of emptiness was just brought up as an illustration for one of the shadow cloak's potential abilities, haha. Not as its own thing. Reasonable confusion, you're fine. Other than that, I think I'll break this post down by item.

Shadow Cloak, as it's probably the most important to figure out right now.
I agree that invisibility is a good quality. Let's figure out, however, how this will work in application. Like, so enemies won't see Link. What will this do for puzzles? What will this door for combat? Personally, I don't see how being invisible, and just that, could solve any puzzles, unless the puzzle was sneaking around, in which case with the cloak, it wouldn't really be a puzzle at all... Also, it would affect fighting for sure, but it seems like it would totally kill fighting (awkward pun-like statement...) because you'd just slaughter enemies.
What if we did combine the elegy of emptiness with the cloak, without the mirrored aspect, because that part seems the most complicated, potentially troublesome, and of dubious application. Basically, you'd put on the cloak and leave a shell of yourself behind, you could travel invisibly this way (perhaps it be your spirit traveling or something), and when you took it off, the shell you left would evaporate and you'd be regular again. Of course, using the cloak would consume a little magic power. The way you'd keep from using this to just slaughter enemies is one of two ways:
You couldn't use your sword while wearing the cloak.
It'd consume lots of magic to use the sword while wearing the cloak.
The enemies would be attracted to the shell you left, so you couldn't fight them cause they wouldn't be where you are, they'd be by the shell.

This way the cloak combines invisibility and elegy, giving it applications for puzzles.


Stone and water cogs seem pretty decided then, stone is defence, water is offence.

Stone cog-
Using this would pull stones out of the ground to create a shield around you for as long as you held the button down. It consumes magic, but you can still move while using the shield. Perhaps using the shield in certain places would drag stones from wall or something into your shield, creating a path that was previously blocked.

Water Cog
Using the water cog blasts water in the four directions around you, damaging enemies it hits. It uses magic. This attack could be used to power some waterwheels.

I think that's what we said, approximately, about the water cog, right?
Also, how do you feel about the specifics of that for stone?


Aiming seems decided then? Hold the button to aim, release to fire. With the bow, press r to switch between arrows, with the cannon press r to charge the shot?
I can see how this might make the cannon clunky, which is good. It's a steampunk hand cannon that shoots bombs, it better be clunky.


Finally, to answer the question you asked in the thread about dungeons, because it's an item question, I am SO in favor of a logbook item. I brought this up ages ago, before this topic was really where it is now, that I wanted one to keep track of when you come someplace you can't access yet, what type of puzzle it is. Like, when you come to a broken bridge you'd need the Hookshot to cross, later you get the Hookshot, and you think to yourself, where the hell was that bridge? I'd like the logbook to keep track of that, too.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on November 28, 2011, 02:38:26 am
Alright!

So yeah, the elegy of emptiness was just brought up as an illustration for one of the shadow cloak's potential abilities, haha. Not as its own thing. Reasonable confusion, you're fine. Other than that, I think I'll break this post down by item.

Shadow Cloak, as it's probably the most important to figure out right now.
I agree that invisibility is a good quality. Let's figure out, however, how this will work in application. Like, so enemies won't see Link. What will this do for puzzles? What will this door for combat? Personally, I don't see how being invisible, and just that, could solve any puzzles, unless the puzzle was sneaking around, in which case with the cloak, it wouldn't really be a puzzle at all... Also, it would affect fighting for sure, but it seems like it would totally kill fighting (awkward pun-like statement...) because you'd just slaughter enemies.
What if we did combine the elegy of emptiness with the cloak, without the mirrored aspect, because that part seems the most complicated, potentially troublesome, and of dubious application. Basically, you'd put on the cloak and leave a shell of yourself behind, you could travel invisibly this way (perhaps it be your spirit traveling or something), and when you took it off, the shell you left would evaporate and you'd be regular again. Of course, using the cloak would consume a little magic power. The way you'd keep from using this to just slaughter enemies is one of two ways:
You couldn't use your sword while wearing the cloak.
It'd consume lots of magic to use the sword while wearing the cloak.
The enemies would be attracted to the shell you left, so you couldn't fight them cause they wouldn't be where you are, they'd be by the shell.
You know, this is much like the Minish Cap approach with the Four Swords. But getting to how invisibility could be used for puzzles, I was thinking of the Magic Cape from ALTTP where you can walk over spikes without getting harmed. For some reason, that slipped my mind at the time of writing my previous post. This actually would go along with the idea you have since Link would essentially be in a "spirit" form then. Thinking about it now, you would have two different methods of solving puzzles here which could all be combined: shell to step/hold down a switch and invisibility to bypass harmful spikes. I've been trying to think of a way for a third method where the mirror could be made useful if it maintained the main items Link has equipped (i.e. the Backlash Shield), but I honestly can only come up with one thing so far and that's requiring Link to travel across to another part of the map while waiting for his mirror to get hit with a projectile. That would make for a tedious puzzle, though. I just thought I would bring up that idea just to see what you would think. :P

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Stone and water cogs seem pretty decided then, stone is defence, water is offence.

Stone cog-
Using this would pull stones out of the ground to create a shield around you for as long as you held the button down. It consumes magic, but you can still move while using the shield. Perhaps using the shield in certain places would drag stones from wall or something into your shield, creating a path that was previously blocked.

Water Cog
Using the water cog blasts water in the four directions around you, damaging enemies it hits. It uses magic. This attack could be used to power some waterwheels.

I think that's what we said, approximately, about the water cog, right?
Also, how do you feel about the specifics of that for stone?
You're quite correct, it doesn't seem like there's anybody against that between me, you, and DH(afaik). You know, about that stone idea, it would be interesting to throw stones down a level and then use the water cog to flood the lower level which allows you to create a bridge(I believe the flooding idea was mentioned in an earlier post, as well). It would be cool if you could ride a rail with the stone cog(Link would be surrounded by a stone shield at this point) and this would allow Link to break through a wall... Ah maybe I'm getting too ahead of myself here -- ahahahaha. I apologize.

Getting back to the main question you were asking, I totally agree with this design for the Stone Cog. You know, pulling stone off of the walls could even make good puzzle devices. (i.e. pulling a slab out of the wall revealing an eye-switch) What you have I think is good enough and can tie into other applications without having to alter the specification behind the Stone Cog.

In regards to the Water Cog, the only point I think was missing was the ability to flood out certain areas. This would take careful level design, but is definitely doable and could be definitely really effective. As for unflooding that area I guess that water would just drain and go to Link? Other than that, I don't believe there was anything else missing. So I +1 the Water Cog. :)

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Aiming seems decided then? Hold the button to aim, release to fire. With the bow, press r to switch between arrows, with the cannon press r to charge the shot?
I can see how this might make the cannon clunky, which is good. It's a steampunk hand cannon that shoots bombs, it better be clunky.
The only thing that concerned me was whether or not it would be "too" clunky. But you know what, the Cannon was clunky in Wind Waker, yet it worked good. So yeah, that's something I didn't consider. ^^ I +1 this idea for aiming.

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Finally, to answer the question you asked in the thread about dungeons, because it's an item question, I am SO in favor of a logbook item. I brought this up ages ago, before this topic was really where it is now, that I wanted one to keep track of when you come someplace you can't access yet, what type of puzzle it is. Like, when you come to a broken bridge you'd need the Hookshot to cross, later you get the Hookshot, and you think to yourself, where the hell was that bridge? I'd like the logbook to keep track of that, too.
Yes!!! I like that extension of the logbook idea you have there. It goes beyond just covering character development, but rather, retaining "hints" to different puzzles which would prove very helpful to the player (assuming the logbook would track such locations through hints and plotted locations on the map).

If me going off on my little idea tangents made my post a bit insane, just yell at me >_<..
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 28, 2011, 04:01:19 am
Okay, totally agreed about the shadow cloak. I mean, the only thing is, couldn't the shell just be used to hold down a switch... That lowered the spikes? Haha, nah, I support going through stuff.
What I might add is that I'd like it if the things you could go through were actually illusions, and when you put of the cloak they appeared a slightly different color, or the rest of the world darkened a little, indicating that they were illusory and you could now pass through them. When not wearing the cloak, however, the illusions would be so convincing that you felt pain from them anyway, taking damage.
However, there are two ways to approach the passing through of spikes, illusions, etc:
You could always pass through them with the shadow cloak, as they're illusions.
You could only pass through them when you've left a shell on the other side, as the shell is what would take the damage, removing your consciousness from your body allows you to dissociate the pain from going through the spikes.
Or, and my favourite, a combination. You could pass through illusions anytime you have the cloak on. However, some things, like spikes, you could pass through only when you've left your shell on the other side. I think this would allow for the best puzzles. Thoughts?
Also, I'd like your opinion on the usage of the sword while wearing the cloak. In the meantime, partial Writeup?

Shadow Cloak
Pressing the assigned button toggles on/off the cloak. Holding the button for a little while youre wearing it creates a shell of yourself that is left behind in the spot you created it. The shell dissipates when you press the action button at it, or if you remove the cloak. The shell can be used to hold down switches, and perhaps other things. (Other things to be decided as puzzles are created. I.E., the levels people could decide that the shell can create a shadow, deactivating a light activated switch, or something along those lines.)

I'll leave the rest for when we decide on what you can pass and sword usage.
Also, let's decide on magic consumption, does it always consume magic while worn, or just while you do actions? One final question on the cloak, is can the shell be destroyed? If so, how so? My opinions are it can't be destroyed by enemies, I don't even know if they'd attack it, but it can be destroyed by specific things, like a really strong light. It is a shadow created shell, light should be able to destroy it.

So, to sum up (I like when you do this, I will too) questions remaining on shadow cloak:
What can you pass through, and when?
Sword usage while wearing the cloak?
Magic consumption?
Destruction of shell?


*also, I think the mirror concept is good, but we can accomplish those puzzles with the statues. Certain statues can move in a mirror pattern when you use the shadow cog on them.


Alright, cogs. Let's remember, we don't want to assign TOO much to each cog. Which is why I thing we should keep each one's functions, outside of the battle applications of fighting and defending, limited to removing rocks into your shield, and working waterwheels. Perhaps putting out fires?
You have great ideas, such as flooding an area, or building a bridge, but those seem too specific to assign as an ability of the cog.
Example, flooding. Yes, this will make awesome puzzles. However, when you aren't in a flood puzzle situation, what then? How will we make it so every map won't be flooded? I think that when we flood maps for puzzles, we should do it just by having Link break a dam or hitting a switch in the water temple, something more specific to the particular puzzle.
Or breaking through a wall, Link could just ride a mine cart through it or something. Because this is too specific and broad to be applied to an item Link can always use.
You're totally right on with removing a slab to reveal an eye switch, though. Thats just a kick ass idea, the levels people better read this! Haha.

For example of what I'm talking about, let's take the idea of flooding and bridging.
So Link has a two level room he needs to go through, on higher level and one lower level. There's a dam that initially keeps the water at the higher level, and creates a dry ditch in the lower level. There is a bridge that floats that he can use to cross the ditch, but it's at the bottom, so he uses the stone cog, or maybe fire arrows, bomb cannon, whatever, to destroy the dam supports, which collapse and flood the ditch. Link crosses over the floating bridge to advance! However, the water level higher up is lower, and is no longer powering a water wheel that was powering a door. Link will have to use the water cog to blast the water wheel to get through the door.

Does that illustrate what I'm trying to say?


Finally, aiming, check! Logbook, check!
You aren't confusing, check! If I use words that are too obscure, stop ME!
End confusion!

Also, where the heck is Dark Hylian?
Or is this one of those instances where I think it's been forever, but he checked in yesterday? (Edit: oh, yup... It was...) you gotta move fast to keep up with Max and Stig! Haha.
Oh man, I should really get back to my homework...
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on November 28, 2011, 10:39:05 am
Okay, totally agreed about the shadow cloak. I mean, the only thing is, couldn't the shell just be used to hold down a switch... That lowered the spikes? Haha, nah, I support going through stuff.
What I might add is that I'd like it if the things you could go through were actually illusions, and when you put of the cloak they appeared a slightly different color, or the rest of the world darkened a little, indicating that they were illusory and you could now pass through them. When not wearing the cloak, however, the illusions would be so convincing that you felt pain from them anyway, taking damage.
However, there are two ways to approach the passing through of spikes, illusions, etc:
You could always pass through them with the shadow cloak, as they're illusions.
You could only pass through them when you've left a shell on the other side, as the shell is what would take the damage, removing your consciousness from your body allows you to dissociate the pain from going through the spikes.
Or, and my favourite, a combination. You could pass through illusions anytime you have the cloak on. However, some things, like spikes, you could pass through only when you've left your shell on the other side. I think this would allow for the best puzzles. Thoughts?
My music player is currently hitting up the NES section of my library... oh, right.

This wall of text is merely me brainstorming, so you might want to skip this small bit if you just want to get down to the main points we were voting on.

You've brought up an interesting point(and successfully noted flaws in my ideas, which is a good thing)! Well, the same applied in A Link to the Past with the Magic Cape, but that didn't stop Nintendo from having obstacles like that. Heck, you could've even had a puzzle that required the hookshot for use even in ALTTP. In regards to your illusions idea, I thought about that too... but didn't say anything since I was somewhat afraid of going TOO FAR out of the box, if you know what I mean. This would actually be an interesting idea if executed well enough. I think we could really only make this idea work if there was something written into the story to give some sort of relevance to the illusions, though. (The current design doesn't specify much, so I'm not sure if anything was brought up about an alternative world) The execution of the idea as I see it based around your description is, you would put on the cloak and in certain areas which you describe as "illusions" would seamlessly warp you(the dungeon layout would change... i.e. the "real-world" would become somewhat transparent while the illusion world is now opaque) to the illusion section of the dungeon allowing you... let's say, interact with objects in the real world in a different way. I mean this like how the Light/Dark World concept was done in ALTTP. Link in order to gain access to the 6th dungeon(the second dungeon in the dark world) had to pull a switch in the light world at the same location. So let's say there's a wall but like the rest of the illusions, it has a distinct factor(let's just hypothetically say it sparks like a fairy), and Link cannot pass through the wall physically. He would need the Shadow Cloak to phase through and maybe kill an enemy or hit a switch to dispel the illusion. Or maybe, he doesn't have to do anything but simply pass through the wall.

(I split up this idea because I had sooo much to say on the first part of the post. You hit a nerve, mang! D: ...in a good way...)

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Also, I'd like your opinion on the usage of the sword while wearing the cloak. In the meantime, partial Writeup?

Shadow Cloak
Pressing the assigned button toggles on/off the cloak. Holding the button for a little while youre wearing it creates a shell of yourself that is left behind in the spot you created it. The shell dissipates when you press the action button at it, or if you remove the cloak. The shell can be used to hold down switches, and perhaps other things. (Other things to be decided as puzzles are created. I.E., the levels people could decide that the shell can create a shadow, deactivating a light activated switch, or something along those lines.)

I'll leave the rest for when we decide on what you can pass and sword usage.
Also, let's decide on magic consumption, does it always consume magic while worn, or just while you do actions? One final question on the cloak, is can the shell be destroyed? If so, how so? My opinions are it can't be destroyed by enemies, I don't even know if they'd attack it, but it can be destroyed by specific things, like a really strong light. It is a shadow created shell, light should be able to destroy it.

So, to sum up (I like when you do this, I will too) questions remaining on shadow cloak:
What can you pass through, and when?
Sword usage while wearing the cloak?
Magic consumption?
Destruction of shell?

Perhaps this idea could be explored later on, no? I'll just stfu and get back to the main program here. +1 to the holding the button down idea. This is great because now we have a consistent control scheme going on here. I could also picture writing a neat graphics shader to kind of give nice eyecandy for the player to look at while the Shadow Cloak is activating "mirror mode". +1 on the sword still being usable. This has been possible previously in Zelda games. Allow me to cite Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. Nothing stopped you from swinging your sword with the bunny ear hat. Magic Usage... should be always when worn. When you wear the Shadow Cloak, it turns you invisible, no? So this would actually fall into while you're doing actions inevitably I guess. As for how much it consumes? I can't really decide on an answer for that right now... might be too soon for that anyways. It should drain maybe a small fraction of your magic bar ever couple seconds(5-10 seconds apart). +1 on the light destructing the shell. This could be a good way for level designers to be assholes to the gamers. Well, at least, in the way I could see this being used as a puzzle obstacle... (rotating mirror within the area of a switch that the shell has to stand on, after a certain period of time the mirror will reflect light onto the shell thus, destroying it. This is if you mean literal light causing the destruction of the Shell, that is...)

I've been thinking that the Shadow Cloak could only pass through illusions, if illusions were to be considered dark energy which would explain why Link would get hurt if he were to... let's say, pass a pit of spikes without the Shadow Cloak but would remain unharmed if he walked over it with the Shadow Cloak.

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*also, I think the mirror concept is good, but we can accomplish those puzzles with the statues. Certain statues can move in a mirror pattern when you use the shadow cog on them.
Touche. Again, I'd like to point out that I like how you're always looking at things in another perspective which is really awesome. But anyways it is like you've said, there are different ways the mirror concept could be used. I was just pointing out an application just to back up the idea.

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Alright, cogs. Let's remember, we don't want to assign TOO much to each cog. Which is why I thing we should keep each one's functions, outside of the battle applications of fighting and defending, limited to removing rocks into your shield, and working waterwheels. Perhaps putting out fires?
You have great ideas, such as flooding an area, or building a bridge, but those seem too specific to assign as an ability of the cog.
Example, flooding. Yes, this will make awesome puzzles. However, when you aren't in a flood puzzle situation, what then? How will we make it so every map won't be flooded? I think that when we flood maps for puzzles, we should do it just by having Link break a dam or hitting a switch in the water temple, something more specific to the particular puzzle.
Or breaking through a wall, Link could just ride a mine cart through it or something. Because this is too specific and broad to be applied to an item Link can always use.
You're totally right on with removing a slab to reveal an eye switch, though. Thats just a kick ass idea, the levels people better read this! Haha.

For example of what I'm talking about, let's take the idea of flooding and bridging.
So Link has a two level room he needs to go through, on higher level and one lower level. There's a dam that initially keeps the water at the higher level, and creates a dry ditch in the lower level. There is a bridge that floats that he can use to cross the ditch, but it's at the bottom, so he uses the stone cog, or maybe fire arrows, bomb cannon, whatever, to destroy the dam supports, which collapse and flood the ditch. Link crosses over the floating bridge to advance! However, the water level higher up is lower, and is no longer powering a water wheel that was powering a door. Link will have to use the water cog to blast the water wheel to get through the door.

Does that illustrate what I'm trying to say?
Very true, I'll give you that. :P I guess I just got carried away. Also, I was thinking of the flooding being useful for areas that have small sources of water, but again... this would make the application of the feature obscure which I believe was a problem mentioned earlier in this thread that Twilight Princess suffered. Items obtained were somewhat alienated after they were used in dungeons because of their specific application, which somewhat hurt the game when you look at the big picture. Although the alternative approach you have is an equally good. (infact, I have an idea regarding illusions and some other whacky stuff, but you know.. that can be saved for the level design guys. That's their job after all xD)

So that being said: I still +1 the Water Cog idea since the one feature you left out was cleared up.

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Finally, aiming, check! Logbook, check!
You aren't confusing, check! If I use words that are too obscure, stop ME!
End confusion!
+1 and +1. :)
Naw man, the only thing that blew my mind was the mention of the Stone Cog and the confusion with the dungeons both of which were cleared up rather quickly.

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Also, where the heck is Dark Hylian?
Or is this one of those instances where I think it's been forever, but he checked in yesterday? (Edit: oh, yup... It was...) you gotta move fast to keep up with Max and Stig! Haha.
Oh man, I should really get back to my homework...
Poor Guy... xD I'm looking through this thread and thinking "oh man, he's gonna be like how I was when I decided to get more involved". Yeah, I only have like three assignments left for this semester before finals, so I have plenty of freetime. :)

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So, to sum up (I like when you do this, I will too) questions remaining on shadow cloak:
Than that I shall do! I apologize for not doing that in the last post, I was simply tired. hahaha Bad excuse.

To sum this ball of mashed potatoes up:

Shadow Cloak
> What can you pass through, and when?
- I suggest only making illusions passable via the Shadow Cloak. As for what an "illusion" is, I would say that this could be either a patch of dark energy or a literal small "dark world" area.(I can cite also Four Swords Adventures for doing something like this) That way we don't have to specifically specify strict cases such as "Shadow Cloak can only pass through a patch of spikes" when we could go more in-depth with this idea without making things too crazy... sorta.

Just to make a brief mention as to that huge wall of text is at the top of this post, I essentially contemplate how the illusion idea could play out. I tried my best to summarize the idea in the above description ^^ when I make the brief mention of illusions since it really comes down to just that.

> Sword usage while wearing the cloak?
- Definite +1 to this. If you can wear a mask in Majora's Mask and Ocarina of Time and slice your sword still(heck, you could even use your Ocarina with the bird mask in Majora's Mask!), then there's no reason why we cannot allow this. The Shadow Cloak is considered a wearable object, so it wouldn't be obscure to allow the player to "stack the use" of other equipped items.

> Destruction of shell?
- +1 to this. Even though I'm not 100% sure if you mean light in the literal sense or light as in "light arrows", the idea still remains the same for the most part because it is like you've mentioned, the shell would be considered dark energy since the Shadow Cloak is a shadow object.

Water Cog
You have sorted through my ideas and did a writeup on the pros and cons. That being said, flooding being an ability as used by the Water Cog would somewhat alienate a distinctive feature of the Water Cog, so it's better just to break that idea down into a more general concept. I still +1 the design you have had for the Water Cog as described in your previous post.


I'm gonna be a little slower with replying throughout the week most likely, due to being busy with the last few classes I have with college. Hopefully this will give DH a chance to catch up! hahaha... poor guy.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 28, 2011, 08:38:56 pm
Yup, me too with college, just one more essay and an exam to study for.

Alright, so I think we've got the cloak and cogs down, we'll just need DH to approve. Which I'm excited for, he usually puts in great ideas.

I'm a little confused when you refer to "mirror" things in relation to the shadow cloak now. What do you mean? Like I said, I think the mirror aspect should be reserved for statues. So I feel like that's not what you're talking about.

So, just double checking, what I believe you're saying is that when you're wearing the shadow cloak, you can pass/perhaps interact with illusions? For instance, you put the shadow cloak on, and certain spikes in a large area of spikes will perhaps turn a slightly different color than the others and wavers little sor something. Those spikes, you will think to yourself, are illusions, and with the cloak on, you can walk through them without getting hurt.
Also, how do you feel about the cloak also allowing previously invisible things to be seen? I know you said it was intruding into the lens of truth area, but I think it goes along with the illusions thing.

Also, about light, I meant both literal and... Metaphorical? Whatever you'd classify the light arrows under, yes. I'd propose a light-type enemy, perhaps, kinda specifically for puzzles involving the shell. Like those dark type turn to stone chu chus were specifically for some puzzles in WW.

Well, here's where I think we are:

Shadow Cloak
Found in the Sheikah Temple
Pressing the assigned button toggles on/off the cloak. Holding the button for a little while youre wearing it creates a shell of yourself that is left behind in the spot you created it. The shell dissipates when you press the action button at it, or if you remove the cloak. The shell can be used to hold down switches, and perhaps other uses, to be decided as puzzles are created. The shell can be destroyed when exposed to direct beams of light, from the sun or light type attacks.
While wearing the cloak, illusions become obvious. Spikes or blocks that aren't real will have some kind of visual effect, and will be passable while the shadow cloak is worn. Some invisible paths will become visible as well.
Wearing the shadow cloak drain your magic.

Think that's good?

Be right back with writeups for all the cogs, so double check with you guys.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on November 29, 2011, 04:01:41 am
Yup, me too with college, just one more essay and an exam to study for.

Alright, so I think we've got the cloak and cogs down, we'll just need DH to approve. Which I'm excited for, he usually puts in great ideas.

I'm a little confused when you refer to "mirror" things in relation to the shadow cloak now. What do you mean? Like I said, I think the mirror aspect should be reserved for statues. So I feel like that's not what you're talking about.
Oh, I apologize. I mixed up "mirror mode" with activating the "shell"(or clone, if you will). >_<

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So, just double checking, what I believe you're saying is that when you're wearing the shadow cloak, you can pass/perhaps interact with illusions? For instance, you put the shadow cloak on, and certain spikes in a large area of spikes will perhaps turn a slightly different color than the others and wavers little sor something. Those spikes, you will think to yourself, are illusions, and with the cloak on, you can walk through them without getting hurt.
Also, how do you feel about the cloak also allowing previously invisible things to be seen? I know you said it was intruding into the lens of truth area, but I think it goes along with the illusions thing.
Correct. :) Also, that might be a non-issue since we may not be using the Lens of Truth in this game(there's been no indication as of yet).. I just brought it up just to be careful in case if there were plans on bringing back the Lens of Truth.

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Also, about light, I meant both literal and... Metaphorical? Whatever you'd classify the light arrows under, yes. I'd propose a light-type enemy, perhaps, kinda specifically for puzzles involving the shell. Like those dark type turn to stone chu chus were specifically for some puzzles in WW.
I meant literal as in, actual sunlight. :P You seemed to have gotten it, though, as you mentioned that the shell can be destroyed by both either literal sunlight or light-based objects(i.e. light arrows). Staflos(I think they're called?) could fall into this area too since they function similarly to the stone chu chus. I can't help but think of the enemies from the Temple of the Gods in Wind Waker when you bring this up...

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Well, here's where I think we are:

Shadow Cloak
Found in the Sheikah Temple
Pressing the assigned button toggles on/off the cloak. Holding the button for a little while youre wearing it creates a shell of yourself that is left behind in the spot you created it. The shell dissipates when you press the action button at it, or if you remove the cloak. The shell can be used to hold down switches, and perhaps other uses, to be decided as puzzles are created. The shell can be destroyed when exposed to direct beams of light, from the sun or light type attacks.
While wearing the cloak, illusions become obvious. Spikes or blocks that aren't real will have some kind of visual effect, and will be passable while the shadow cloak is worn. Some invisible paths will become visible as well.
Wearing the shadow cloak drain your magic.

Think that's good?

Be right back with writeups for all the cogs, so double check with you guys.

Sheikah Temple -- So that means this item isn't of Gerudo descent, huh? Or are you meaning to imply that the Sheikah simply stole this artifact from the Gerudo? I hadn't found anything in the design topics regarding this, so I apologize for my ignorance here. I'll wait for your response to decide if I +1 this or not ;p
Pressing the assigned button toggles on/off. -- Shell, yes. "Shell death", yes. Used to hold down switches, yes. Other uses, definitely if we can make any, but given that I can't come up with any ideas currently I'm gonna vote no until you and DH respond. I was thinking of having the shell hold whatever item you had equipped before activating the shell mode. The only question is, what items would that include? I can only think of the mirror shield, but you said that the mirror puzzles are restricted to statues so that leaves that out. Death of shell by light, yes.
While wearing the cloak, illusions become obvious -- Yes. Yes and yes.

Just one question, we're fine with the ability to use the sword while wearing the cloak or is this considered a nono?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on November 29, 2011, 05:59:26 pm
Cool.
The Lens of Truth, no, we've discussed each item to go in the game, and there was a big list earlier. The only item not on there was the Shadow Cloak, which is gonna be on there now.

Shadow Cloak! Gerunds descent, no, I don't think so? Why would it be/why does it matter? I mean, if you can think of a good reason that is is a gerudo item, then sure. If not, I assume it'd be created by the Sheikah.

Sword Attacks are fine, I think we decided. That might be one of the things that becomes an issue after testing, though, so if it does become an issue, maybe we can change it. For now though, slash away.

The other puzzles that it might work for will not change the functionality of the cloak at all. If the shell could do other things, it wouldn't involve the shell doing anything but standing there. I meant like, beside holding down switches, it maybe (if you created a shell there) would move down a conveyor belt towards a switch, so you'd make the shell at one end, then you'd have to run to a certain point before the shell rolled down onto the switch to solve a puzzle somehow. Something like that. Nothing that would change the functionality of the shell, is my point.


So alright, just one more thing to double check,
The cogs.

Forest/Wind Cog
Holding the button assigned to the thief bracers charges an attack when not adjacent to a door, and when released, Link summons a tornado around him, then shoots it off in the direction he's facing. The tornado blows around and stuns enemies it hits. The tornado can also blow some windmill type switches and put out flames.
Using this attack uses up a portion of Link's magic.

Sea Cog
Holding the button assigned to the thief bracers with this equipped charges an attack when not adjacent to a door, and when released, Link releases a concussive wave of water in a radius around him. When it hits enemies, it damages them, and it can turn waterwheels and perhaps nourish plants.
using this attack uses up a portion of Link's magic.

Earth Cog
Holding the button assigned to the thief bracers with this equipped charges an attack when not adjacent to a door, that when released, drags smallish rocks from the ground up around Link to form a shield. Pressing the button again deactivates this shield. The shield protects Link from enemy attacks. When used near some walls, the stones will be taken from the wall to form the shield instead of the ground, revealing whatever was behind them.
Link's magic drains for a long as the shield is activated. Link also moves more slowly with the shield.

Shadow Cog
Holding the button assigned to the thief bracers with this equipped charges an attack when not adjacent to a door, releasing the button releases tendrils of dark energy from Link's hand. When certain, designated statues are touched with the energy, Link can take control of them. Different types of statues can do different things. When enemies are struck with this dark energy, they are driven mad with visions of tormentors, and attack other enemies. Weak enemies may rather opt to destroy themselves (perhaps jumping down holes, into water).
Using the shadow cog uses a portion of Link's magic.


All seems good to you?
I'd really like it if DH were to chime in, it's getting later than I wanted to turn this in.

ALSO, one final note, we haven't yet touched on smaller items, or the sword and shield. I'm not sure if we should do that first, or address other gameplay stuff first. Probably the items just to be consistent.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Dark-Hylian on December 01, 2011, 02:15:26 am
Sorry for my absence, issues and exams, etc. Also, I noticed I'm not being notified of new messages, but they show up in my emails. Huh. Anyways.

Max, the Cogs seem good, I like them a lot. The water one still doesn't click, but I don't think it ever will xD

Anyways. The Shadow Cloak. Its uses are really garbled in here, but when I read it quickly, someone mentioned (this might have been me actually, or someone quoting me xD) but
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While wearing the cloak, illusions become obvious. Spikes or blocks that aren't real will have some kind of visual effect, and will be passable while the shadow cloak is worn. Some invisible paths will become visible as well.
Wearing the shadow cloak drain your magic.

This seems like the ideal solution, and if you guys want to add the shell idea, the one where it fades when you take the cloak off, then that seems acceptable. As for the rest, bow use should be kept "normal", no tricky 360 degrees or 12 directions blah de blah. I think MC's bow engine was fine. Ice and Fire arrows will work well if we just keep it simple, and Light Arrows shouldn't be included, imo.

I think Bomb Cannon and Bow should function the same way, relatively.

That's about all I have to say on the subject, good work all :)
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on December 01, 2011, 02:27:52 am
oh wow I like the ideas last time I read about this we were stuck with the driller thingie I'm glad we haven't added it, soo so far we got a nice quantity of items, I was just wondering what other items we are missing or what do you think we must define next? I would like to define swords and shields and other items but not sure if we are ready or if the cogs are completely discussed ;), anyways I would also like to touch the topic of upgrades in items as in:

Slingshot << Bow and Arrow
Boomerang << Fairy Boomerang
Dekustick << Thief's Dagger <<Sword <<Master Sword
Shield << Mirror Shield.
(these are just example but I really like the idea of beating the game with just a dekustick haha)
Just to name some not sure what people think
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on December 01, 2011, 03:00:26 am
DH!
You still haven't said if you approve of me calling you that for short yet! Haha. Nice to see you again, though, yeah, I understand about exams, we're all there.

What you're saying about the cloak is exactly what we're going for, I think. What you quoted was the wording of the most recent and official writeup of the cloak, that's the wording I have in the final document. So it's that exactly, plus the Shadow Shell clone elegy of emptiness thing. I think they'll work well together.

As for the bow, we are currently thinking 8 way firing. However, I'll definitely bring your opinion about 4 way up to MG and the gang, and get their take on it. I also thought a little about that, that they might have just left the aiming 4 way for a reason, but I wasn't really sure how it'd work out, so I think that what it might be, is that unless the programmers take issue, we might initially set them up 8 way, then if it doesn't work out too well, change it back to four way.
Also yeah, light arrows, nope.

The water cog is definitely the hardest to work with because honestly, water is just a wierd thing to use in fights. I mean, I could go and suggest something like it could be used for healing or something, but unless it becomes an issue, it might be getting a bit late to change that.

SO, folks!
I think I'm gonna go ahead and contact MG, submit the google doc to him (DH, I sent a PM about google docs, that's how I have the items stored.). I'll bring up your concern about 4/8 way aiming, DH. And also, if anybody else feels like the water cog seems a bit... off, then we can still change it, I don't think it'll be too late or anything. So as far as I know, this thread will stay open for suggestions about these items we've just finished.
BUT,
We aren't done with ALL the items yet. What we've still go left, I think, is pickup items (hearts, arrows, etc), equipment (swords, shields, etc), and then some miscellaneous items like the logbook. There will also be at least one trading quest, but, I don't think that will be decided in this thread, honestly it's not set up to take care of that very well. Some story related items will occur too, like keys to dungeons, letters to plot devices, etc. haha. I think those will also be developed elsewhere.

SO... Here's a list of pickup items.
Main thing with this, approve what you like, bring up concerns and any items I may have missed.


Randomly found items, edited from an old post:
Note that these items are found only once they're applicable to the hero, i.e., you don't find arrows before you have a bow. Also note that in rooms in dungeons that require a refillable item, such as ammo or magic, that particular item can be found in jars/pots in that room.

Hearts
Pick up a heart to replenish one heart of health.
Their rarity will depend on how difficult the enemies are, to balance it.

Rupees
Increments found randomly: 1, 5, and 20. Randomly finding a 20 is extremely rare, and those and increments higher than that are reserved for rewards.

Magic Jars
Small green bottles that replenish an increment of your magic meter. Small jars replenish like an eighth, maybe a quarter, big magic jars replenish it all.
Rarity would depend on how many items use magic, and how necessary they are, but fairly uncommon.
Rooms with puzzles requiring magic would have pot that definitely have magic jars in them.

Bombs
Found once you have the bomb cannon. Uncommon. Explode things, used in the cannon, etc... One bomb icon on the map replenishes 5 bombs.

Arrows
Found once you have the bow, can be used to shoot targets from afar. Picking up one bundle of arrows icon refills 5 arrows in your quiver.
Once you obtain the fire and ice arrows, you can use a regular arrow and fire it as a fire arrow, or ice arrow. Each fire arrow would use up one arrow and a small amount of magic, same with ice arrows.

Secret Seashells
Found quite rarely, and sometimes as puzzle rewards. They are saved up for no apparent purpose until you find that they can be traded to upgrade some equipment in a secret out of the way seashell mansion type place. They should DEFINITELY not be used for some type of wagering game, though, because that was obnoxious. LA had it right with finding only 20 in the whole game, and getting a better sword, in my opinion.

SO, let's gather some opinions on these, especially the secret seashells were just an idea I had.
What I'm thinking is that we'll do these really quick, and then start brainstorming equipment (sword and shield, etc). I at least want to wait a while, for everybody's finals to be over, to get really into deciding for sure. I don't want only some people to do input, like the end of these items, where it was almost just Stig and I. Not to diss Stig's help, if it came off that way, because he's been awesome, I just wish everybody could be that often, haha. I understand that's not realistic, though.

Speaking of which, did everybody get my PM about meetings? I'll send another, I guess.

Kren! Hey, almost didn't catch you there! Are you on my team now?
I'll try to catch you up to date, we've basically just decided on all the dungeon and main items. You can comment on those, but yeah, we're about to get started on the equipment. I've gotta go, but I'll start commenting on the equipment soon.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Kren on December 01, 2011, 04:33:07 am
oh oh oh, well it seems you don't need me here, I will focus more on the art itself..
/me walks out the door slowly
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on December 01, 2011, 04:49:16 am
DH!
You still haven't said if you approve of me calling you that for short yet! Haha. Nice to see you again, though, yeah, I understand about exams, we're all there.

What you're saying about the cloak is exactly what we're going for, I think. What you quoted was the wording of the most recent and official writeup of the cloak, that's the wording I have in the final document. So it's that exactly, plus the Shadow Shell clone elegy of emptiness thing. I think they'll work well together.

As for the bow, we are currently thinking 8 way firing. However, I'll definitely bring your opinion about 4 way up to MG and the gang, and get their take on it. I also thought a little about that, that they might have just left the aiming 4 way for a reason, but I wasn't really sure how it'd work out, so I think that what it might be, is that unless the programmers take issue, we might initially set them up 8 way, then if it doesn't work out too well, change it back to four way.
Also yeah, light arrows, nope.

The water cog is definitely the hardest to work with because honestly, water is just a wierd thing to use in fights. I mean, I could go and suggest something like it could be used for healing or something, but unless it becomes an issue, it might be getting a bit late to change that.
@Shadow Cloak: It seems good.
@Water Cog: It's probably as good as we're gonna get it. I think this is the type of item where we need a testbed to develop the idea better because it's like you said, it's a very strange item.
Actually, the rest of the cogs like DH said seemed good. Good work!

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SO, folks!
I think I'm gonna go ahead and contact MG, submit the google doc to him (DH, I sent a PM about google docs, that's how I have the items stored.). I'll bring up your concern about 4/8 way aiming, DH. And also, if anybody else feels like the water cog seems a bit... off, then we can still change it, I don't think it'll be too late or anything. So as far as I know, this thread will stay open for suggestions about these items we've just finished.
I just feel that 8-directional firing was never enabled in a 2D Zelda due to technicalities with the console. Thinking about it, the only 2D Zelda written for a game console that's not restricted would be Four Sword Adventures, and that had all kinds of whacky ways of attacking. Though they didn't add in 8 directional firing in that case maybe to keep things consistent? Who knows. This seems like one of those types of problems that only testing can solve.

Quote
BUT,
We aren't done with ALL the items yet. What we've still go left, I think, is pickup items (hearts, arrows, etc), equipment (swords, shields, etc), and then some miscellaneous items like the logbook. There will also be at least one trading quest, but, I don't think that will be decided in this thread, honestly it's not set up to take care of that very well. Some story related items will occur too, like keys to dungeons, letters to plot devices, etc. haha. I think those will also be developed elsewhere.

SO... Here's a list of pickup items.
Main thing with this, approve what you like, bring up concerns and any items I may have missed.


Randomly found items, edited from an old post:
Note that these items are found only once they're applicable to the hero, i.e., you don't find arrows before you have a bow. Also note that in rooms in dungeons that require a refillable item, such as ammo or magic, that particular item can be found in jars/pots in that room.

Hearts
Pick up a heart to replenish one heart of health.
Their rarity will depend on how difficult the enemies are, to balance it.
+1 Seems fair enough so far. One thing, I'm guessing their rarity when destroying other objects(i.e. bushes, jugs, etc) depends on how much health you have?

Quote
Rupees
Increments found randomly: 1, 5, and 20. Randomly finding a 20 is extremely rare, and those and increments higher than that are reserved for rewards.
+1 Simple enough. Glad you noted what happens to the higher amounts otherwise I woulda said something. xD

Quote
Magic Jars
Small green bottles that replenish an increment of your magic meter. Small jars replenish like an eighth, maybe a quarter, big magic jars replenish it all.
Rarity would depend on how many items use magic, and how necessary they are, but fairly uncommon.
Rooms with puzzles requiring magic would have pot that definitely have magic jars in them.
+1 I can't think of anything more that can be said about this.

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Bombs
Found once you have the bomb cannon. Uncommon. Explode things, used in the cannon, etc... One bomb icon on the map replenishes 5 bombs.
+1 I'm assuming this is just normal bombs, right? We're not having any other types of bombs? (i.e. The giant orange bomb from ALTTP or the powder keg from Majora's Mask)
Quote
Arrows
Found once you have the bow, can be used to shoot targets from afar. Picking up one bundle of arrows icon refills 5 arrows in your quiver.
Once you obtain the fire and ice arrows, you can use a regular arrow and fire it as a fire arrow, or ice arrow. Each fire arrow would use up one arrow and a small amount of magic, same with ice arrows.
+1 I'm for 8 directional firing until we can get a test bed setup to further investigate how the ranged weapons could work.

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Secret Seashells
Found quite rarely, and sometimes as puzzle rewards. They are saved up for no apparent purpose until you find that they can be traded to upgrade some equipment in a secret out of the way seashell mansion type place. They should DEFINITELY not be used for some type of wagering game, though, because that was obnoxious. LA had it right with finding only 20 in the whole game, and getting a better sword, in my opinion.
+1 Definitely! This reminds me of the red orb idea from Illusion of Gaia. If you collect a certain amount, you're taken to a top secret dungeon where you fight the last boss of Enix's previous game before Illusion of Gaia, who also makes a brief mention of that game's protagonist. Getting back on topic, this definitely could be a nice way to give the player upgrades. I already have some in my head like an upgrade to give you the throwing sword ability like in Zelda 1. I could see some of the upgrades just being throwbacks or references to older Zelda games, stuff that aren't part of the games initial design.

Quote
SO, let's gather some opinions on these, especially the secret seashells were just an idea I had.
What I'm thinking is that we'll do these really quick, and then start brainstorming equipment (sword and shield, etc). I at least want to wait a while, for everybody's finals to be over, to get really into deciding for sure. I don't want only some people to do input, like the end of these items, where it was almost just Stig and I. Not to diss Stig's help, if it came off that way, because he's been awesome, I just wish everybody could be that often, haha. I understand that's not realistic, though.
Naw, I wouldn't mind it if you attacked me if it was constructive. I agree that this is supposed to be a team effort and the only way to get the best quality is to get multiple viewpoints here. After all, we're a community project, not an Apple product.

Quote
Speaking of which, did everybody get my PM about meetings? I'll send another, I guess.
I'm finally un-busy again, so I'm free again. However I don't recall if there were times every established and how we were gonna talk?

Summary
Overall I really didn't have much to add other than some thoughts on ideas.

> Bombs. You made mention of just one set of bombs which I'm assuming are the normal blue bombs. I'm just curious with what your thoughts are in regards to having more than one type of bomb. Examples include but are not limited to: Powder Keg from Majora's Mask, the Orange Bomb from A Link to The Past. Both bombs had the same effects, but their designs were slightly different. They blew things up that couldn't be done with just a normal bomb.

>Secret Seashells. Immediately I think of Illusion of Gaia once you made mention of the secret seashell dungeon idea. (secret seahorses, anyone? Kudos if you get the reference!) It would be cool if some of the upgrades could include some throw backs to the older Zelda games like the charged up sword in Zelda 1. Of course there's more that could possibly be done with this, but this is just an initial idea I felt would be a pretty decent start.

>8-Directional Firing. My opinion here still stands, for it until we can test.

Please let me know if there's something I said that confuses you. I just woke up after a ridiculously long nap, so I wouldn't be surprised if I say something absurd. xD

EDIT: Oh, one more thing!

Quote

Shadow Cloak! Gerunds descent, no, I don't think so? Why would it be/why does it matter? I mean, if you can think of a good reason that is is a gerudo item, then sure. If not, I assume it'd be created by the Sheikah.

I was just trying to figure out why the Sheikah temple, that's all. I was under the impression that it would have some relation to the Gerudo's(like finding it there). But yeah, I'll just follow what you said and assume it was created by the Sheikah.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on December 01, 2011, 12:59:45 pm
Kren, you're welcome to pop some ideas up if you feel so inclined. We have already addressed some of the things you brought up, like the slingshot/bow thing...

@Stig, bombs, we're basically gonna use bombs as ammo for the bomb cannon, so I don't think we'll have different types, unless they're part of a side quest, like ALTTP. I'm pretty sure that bomb just blew up part of the pyramid of power, and nothing else. I think that if we have items like that, which relate only to side quests and stuff, we won't decide them here, these are more... General use items.

As for the cloak, I still don't understand how it'd be related to the gerudo, since that part of the game is taking place in the Sheikah area of the game.

About the throwing a sword thing, I actually haven't played zelda one. I was thinking about sword moves, like in TP and MC. I don't think we'll get too into them here, though.

So, as far as equipment goes:
I'm pretty sure the master sword is a plot thing, found in the FINAL dungeon, if the game plot thus far is still gonna be basically followed. Which makes it not a by applicable thing for helping on the game, so I'd suggest some kinda (maybe optional) sword in between the first and master swords.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on December 01, 2011, 08:59:43 pm
Kren, you're welcome to pop some ideas up if you feel so inclined. We have already addressed some of the things you brought up, like the slingshot/bow thing...

@Stig, bombs, we're basically gonna use bombs as ammo for the bomb cannon, so I don't think we'll have different types, unless they're part of a side quest, like ALTTP. I'm pretty sure that bomb just blew up part of the pyramid of power, and nothing else. I think that if we have items like that, which relate only to side quests and stuff, we won't decide them here, these are more... General use items.

As for the cloak, I still don't understand how it'd be related to the gerudo, since that part of the game is taking place in the Sheikah area of the game.

About the throwing a sword thing, I actually haven't played zelda one. I was thinking about sword moves, like in TP and MC. I don't think we'll get too into them here, though.
@Bombs: Ah, alright... I was just double checking, that's all. ^^

@Cloak: I just realized I got the whole shadow aspect mixed up with the Gerudo and Sheikahs. Just nevermind here...lol.

@Shells: Well, the Zelda 1 thing was just a neat idea I thought would be pretty cool to throw out there. This idea actually had been reused in even modern Zelda games.. though the most recent I think was Minish Cap. In regards to the skill upgrades, it makes sense you would go that route. Given that there needs to be an upgrade that fits inbetween the normal sword and the master sword.

Quote
So, as far as equipment goes:
I'm pretty sure the master sword is a plot thing, found in the FINAL dungeon, if the game plot thus far is still gonna be basically followed. Which makes it not a by applicable thing for helping on the game, so I'd suggest some kinda (maybe optional) sword in between the first and master swords.
Yeah, it is noted in the plot so far that the Master Sword _is_ found in the final dungeon. I think we should probably discuss the game plot sometime soon so we don't have inconsistencies going on between the items and plot or unless what you're saying is that we _are_ following the current plot. If that's the case, then that's fine so as long as we can make any changes in the long run!(Can't rule out the possibility of new ideas coming up)
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on December 02, 2011, 07:20:01 pm
Yeah, the plot... I was thinking that if we do change it, it probably won't be a big change, because that isn't really needed. There was a good, solid story that lots of people before us agreed on, I think. Obviously, we'll be adding details and stuff, and we might change some parts, but until we have a meeting and discuss what we'll do, in what order, decide when to address the plot, and then discuss it, let's assume the master sword is the item of the last dungeon.

Which will make the sword order
First Sword > Middle Sword (optional?) > Master Sword

Notes: This doesn't say that because the master sword isn't optional, you HAVE to use it, we could do like 3D games where you can choose what sword to equip and use a less powerful one if you like. In fact, I support that. I also, however, support optional items, especially upgrades.
SO, what do you guys think about the second sword, optional or not? If so, how easy to obtain will it be? I think it'd be best if it was optional, but fairly easy to acquire (by which I mean, obvious how to acquire it, unlike things like the great spin attack (WW and MC)).

Since we're bringing up optional items, what is your stance on them in general?
I support them, especially as upgrades, such as the Magic Boomerang (control its path), I really think we should have that it here.
Also, although I don't think they'd go so well as totally NEW items, I liked when MC upgraded, by catching butterflies, your swimming and digging speed, and when they sped up the split meter and stuff. I'd like little upgrades like that, where you could get the long shot, or swim faster, shoot the bow further and/or faster. Your feelings on each of those, and your ideas?

Besides upgrades, I would totally love it if there was either a long or difficult side quest to gain a totally new item. My favourites for this optional item as the Pegasus Boots, and Roc's Cape.
I also think the magic powder should be avaliable in an easier side quest, and come in handy sometimes, but never be necessary or do anything really serious. But things like turning buzz blobs into chukemen, transforming an occasional cucco, stunning enemies, whatever.

Finally, as far as equipment goes, I think it can basically be broken down into sword, shield, tunic, boots, and etc, which includes odd stuff like power bracelets and flippers. Personally, I think the only ones applicable here are the sword, shield, and etc categories. Sword I already mentioned, but how do you feel about shields?
Personally, I'd opt for only one upgrade - mirror shield, MC style. Or maybe that backlash shield that was brought up way, waaaay long ago.
And for the etc category, we already have flippers, and I can't think of anything else that would be useful.

Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on December 06, 2011, 12:12:56 pm
Ok this topic has gotten quite messy. So I wanna know. Which items ARE in the game?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on December 06, 2011, 02:21:14 pm
Aah, yeah, I can see this being a bit hard to follow, as it's basically a long list of various brainstorms followed by discussion of said brainstorms, and often not a clear decision either way, haha. All the main items actually are finalised, though. There's a list of some of them in specifics four or so posts from the bottom of page eight, and a list of proposed minor pickup items on this page that everybody seems to agree with.
The main items, though, basically follow as this: (Not counting the sword), thief bracers, boomerang, Hookshot, flippers, magnetic gloves, bow and arrows, bomb cannon, fire and ice arrows, shadow cloak. And the four cogs can be equipped to the thief bracers to be used as well.
All these items should be updated in the current design information page shortly, if they aren't already, I didn't think to look.

Anyway, it's been a few days without comment.

On additional thing I'd like to bring up, besides the things I mentioned in the last post (which I'll ask again, we're still working in this topic, team!), is about the way the shield should work.
There are basically three ways the shield has worked in the past:

ALTTP style, it's always equipped and blocks automatically if you aren't doing anything else.
OOX/MC style, you can equip the shield same as any other item.
3D style, the shield has its own button, so you can always use it, unless you're doing something else. Using it would prevent you from doing something else.

Personally, I like the 3D method the best. However, I don't really want to use that many buttons in this game, as presumably the same button that would allow you to use your shield would be the button to roll, assuming we're only using as many buttons as a GBA, which is something else we need to discuss, but...
I like the MC method better than ALTTP, because I never used my shield when I had to equip it as one of my two items, unless I had to. Mostly just on those spiky turtle guys.

So anyway, how will the shield work, folks?


Secondly, I'll go over what I asked in my last post, to reiterate and perhaps stir up a response:

Second sword- master sword, or is that one later? If not master sword, optional? If so, how difficult to obtain?
Item upgrades proposed: (we'll think about how they're obtained later)
Controlable (magic) boomerang
Swim faster
Longshot extension
Shoot arrows further/more rapidly
Shield upgrade

Optional items proposed:
Magic Powder
Pegasus Boots
Roc's Cape

If other people like optional items like these, we'll then figure out exactly what they'll do. Then later, how to obtain them. But they need ratified first.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: King Tetiro on December 06, 2011, 02:23:59 pm
Thanks for clearing it up for me. What's the thief bracers btw?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on December 06, 2011, 02:39:27 pm
Like I mentioned, near the bottom of the eighth page (fourth or so post from the bottom), there's a pretty good list of the items, including the thief bracers. Basically, you can use them to help you pick locks, a thief ability Link's always struggled with. But the true use of the bracers is as a means to utilise the powers of the cogs, as after you equip a cog to the bracers, you can use the cog's special attack. The powers of the cogs are scattered a bit more throughout the last few pages. Basically, if you read backwards through this topic and ignore the contradictions, you'll get the items.

Also, items group, besides the points I mentioned in my above post, I read this random topic that's started discussing handbags which found its way onto the front page, and it reminded me something:

Bottles?
Can I just assume there are four, they're regular like we'd expect in every way?

And also, is there an instrument?
If so, is it for anything other than warping around? Personally, I like having a number of songs like OoT and MM, but... I think that'd just be too much at this point, with everything else we've got going on. When I imagine all the items we have so far, playing the game with them, and then imagine also having half a dozen songs that do different things, it feels kind of messy and thrown together.

However, I do think we should have a warping system. If this is tied to an instrument, great, if you can only access it via specific points, great.
It seems most versatile and useful to me, if we have owl statues can you can warp to each other from, but also an instrument that you get later, once you've visited all the owl statues, that allows you to warp to any of them from anywhere.
It would also be neat if once you obtained said item, you could warp to one or two owl statues that you couldn't previously access, which allowed you to solve some puzzle or access a secret bonus location.

But yeah, just because I always post really long stuff, don't forget to read my last post, we need decisions on what I brought up there, too!
Title: Design team!: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on December 18, 2011, 08:52:22 am
Design team! It's been seventeen days. I can only assume that the level team's assassin was competent after all.
So here's my logic. There are still item matters to be decided. One person's decision is better than no decision, so while I really want you guys to input opinions and ideas, if nobody does within the month, these decisions will be final. They aren't really huge matters, anyway.


Second sword- optional to obtain. It will take some effort in puzzle solving (finding requisite materials, or the blacksmith or something) but will be fairly obvious. It's power level will be between the first sword and the master sword, and it will be available to obtain after the Zara dungeon.

Item upgrades: (we'll think about how they're obtained later)
Controlable (magic) boomerang
Swim faster
Longshot extension
Shoot arrows further/more rapidly
Shield upgrade

Optional items:
Magic Powder
Pegasus Boots
Roc's Cape

Bottles - four, which behave just like they go in every zelda game.

Warping instrument - optional, but easy to obtain, found in a cave or someplace. Playing the instrument allows you to warp to specific places on the map, as long as you've already been there, like the wind crests in MC.

I think it'd be cool if the instrument were percussion, like a bell, triangle, cymbal, or those wooden ridged things you scrape with a drumstick. However, imagining Link playing them and warping isn't as cool. So perhaps a stringed instrument. It needs to be small, which lends itself to woodwinds, but flutes and ocarinas have already been done...
Therefore, I'm deciding to call it the wind fiddle.


Furthermore, we already discussed this, but there should also be a logbook.
When you encounter a puzzle you can't solve, you write it in the logbook, along with a couple specifics, such as location and puzzle type. You also record chests you open and find more rupees than you can carry, you put them back and write down the location. Therefore, the logbook will contain a map.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: MG-Zero on December 18, 2011, 06:37:14 pm
If people stop replying, send out a mass PM to the division.  It seems to be the only way to grab their attention.  If that fails, shoot one of the managers a message and we'll get on it :)
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on December 19, 2011, 01:43:36 pm

Second sword- optional to obtain. It will take some effort in puzzle solving (finding requisite materials, or the blacksmith or something) but will be fairly obvious. It's power level will be between the first sword and the master sword, and it will be available to obtain after the Zara dungeon.
As I recall from our discussions, we were both talking in agreement to an idea along the lines of this. I agree with the optional part, but as you've mentioned, we're going to discuss how they're obtained later. So the optional part, +1.

Quote
Item upgrades: (we'll think about how they're obtained later)
Controlable (magic) boomerang
Swim faster
Longshot extension
Shoot arrows further/more rapidly
Shield upgrade

Optional items:
Magic Powder
Pegasus Boots
Sorry to cut the quotebox off here, but I wanted to throw in a functionality idea for the pegasus boots. This actually comes from BS Zelda: Ancient Stone Tablets. You can move in 4 directions while running with the boots. If you want a video displaying this, I can go fetch one if you like.

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Roc's Cape
It would be cool if the player could hold 'A'(or the action button) to perform a "slam" move with their sword? Silly idea, but this would be a neat sword move upgrade.

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Bottles - four, which behave just like they go in every zelda game.

Warping instrument - optional, but easy to obtain, found in a cave or someplace. Playing the instrument allows you to warp to specific places on the map, as long as you've already been there, like the wind crests in MC.

I think it'd be cool if the instrument were percussion, like a bell, triangle, cymbal, or those wooden ridged things you scrape with a drumstick. However, imagining Link playing them and warping isn't as cool. So perhaps a stringed instrument. It needs to be small, which lends itself to woodwinds, but flutes and ocarinas have already been done...
Therefore, I'm deciding to call it the wind fiddle.
Wind Fiddle... I like it!

Quote
Furthermore, we already discussed this, but there should also be a logbook.
When you encounter a puzzle you can't solve, you write it in the logbook, along with a couple specifics, such as location and puzzle type. You also record chests you open and find more rupees than you can carry, you put them back and write down the location. Therefore, the logbook will contain a map.
How would one go writing the entry in the logbook? Would this be a pre-scripted event so as long as the player activates it properly? I like the idea, but it would be cool if you could elaborate here.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on December 19, 2011, 05:56:27 pm
Pegasus boots, I thought the limitation in direction was an important limitation that kept the boots from being too powerful, as you're kinda invincible until you either run into something you can't hurt, or get hit from the wrong angle. It might be able to work, but it seems like it'd be something that'd need to be tested, to me.

As for the sword slam move, we'll consider it when we're discussing that aspect of the sword. After the items are finished off and we have a meeting, we're going into much more basic stuff, which will be essential for the programmers, probably.

As for the logbook, by you write it, I meant Link writes it, by which I meant, it appears in the logbook. So yeah, per scripted event.
Also, this item will be one of the first to be abandoned if the programmers go on strike or something, because it is probably a lot of work for a small convenience that's never been in a zelda game before. In fact, although I like it, I am a bit worried it might make things too easy. But of course, it won't solve the puzzle, just remind you where it is, and what's involved...
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on December 19, 2011, 08:09:39 pm
Pegasus boots, I thought the limitation in direction was an important limitation that kept the boots from being too powerful, as you're kinda invincible until you either run into something you can't hurt, or get hit from the wrong angle. It might be able to work, but it seems like it'd be something that'd need to be tested, to me.
@Needing to be tested: Yeah, sure! I see where you're making your point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=m19W6o9U3KM#t=4s This is the video I was referring to, by the way. I believe Nintendo only made this change in this game due to the time-constraints, so your point would be justified even still.

Quote
As for the sword slam move, we'll consider it when we're discussing that aspect of the sword. After the items are finished off and we have a meeting, we're going into much more basic stuff, which will be essential for the programmers, probably.
Yes sir.
Quote
As for the logbook, by you write it, I meant Link writes it, by which I meant, it appears in the logbook. So yeah, per scripted event.
Also, this item will be one of the first to be abandoned if the programmers go on strike or something, because it is probably a lot of work for a small convenience that's never been in a zelda game before. In fact, although I like it, I am a bit worried it might make things too easy. But of course, it won't solve the puzzle, just remind you where it is, and what's involved...
Hahahaa. Programmers go on strike. I am going to speak for both me and Steve(MG-Zero), we don't throw away good ideas.. if something is difficult to do, we'll find a solution to make it work one way or another. ;)
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on December 19, 2011, 08:28:52 pm
Alright, glad to hear about the tenacity towards the logbook. But still, it would take a bit of time to do, as well as lots of effort and planning for a minor convenience, which might even end up making the game too easy! Well, I dunno. This is a decision I don't really want to make by myself, which is why we have a team.

As for the Pegasus boots, I do like how they worked in the video. I also think they'd be especially helpful just because of the time constraints on the BS, but seeing as they'd be a secret, optional item anyway, I guess it could work out fine without causing an imbalance in the game.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on December 19, 2011, 08:31:48 pm
Alright, glad to hear about the tenacity towards the logbook. But still, it would take a bit of time to do, as well as lots of effort and planning for a minor convenience, which might even end up making the game too easy! Well, I dunno. This is a decision I don't really want to make by myself, which is why we have a team.
I'm fairly confident we can engineer something that could make this an easier process.. just by how I had the psuedo code down on my notebook. (I was just forecasting how this could be done, which would be through a database tracking logbook entries and various triggers that'll fire up the proper events needed to make this all execute together)

It may not be easy, but we can certainly make the process easier. As for the boots, that's great to hear!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on January 10, 2012, 05:39:34 pm
Yeah, I know this topic was kinda dead...

But, I want to discuss the optional items a little bit.

Now that we've basically decided we want sword attacks like in Twilight Princess or Minish Cap, we realise that on a 2D system, these would work best the way MC did it, where they're tied to items other than the sword.
For instance, while you're flying with the Roc's cape, if you press the sword button, you do a down thrust.

THEREFORE, we need to decide which items will affect the sword attacks.
Of the items we already have, the only idea I get is using the magnetic gloves for a Sword-a-rang attack. It'd be kinda goofy, but sweet. I'll address that elsewhere.

The items that affected sword attacks in MC were the Roc's cape and Pegasus boots, I believe. Personally, O really want the Roc's cape to be in the game, secretly, so you can do the down thrust as well as have awesome jumping abilities.

But what do you guys think about the Pegasus boots?
Personally, I think if we did them like Zelda BS and you could basically just run really fast to travel more quickly toward the end of the game, and also had it so you could learn some kinda move related to dashing. Obviously, there's just holding the sword out in front of you so you can stab things. Perhaps more?


So basically, I'm asking again, if we should have the secret items of the Roc's cape, and Pegasus boots, particularly to use them with sword attacks.
Also, any other optional items that would be sweet?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Mirby on January 11, 2012, 06:32:07 pm
Hmm...

I think that we should also tie some of the sword attacks to moves. I seem to remember being able to do a sword thrust after a roll.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on January 11, 2012, 08:54:12 pm
Way ahead of you, Mirby, there's a whole topic about it.
http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=38790.0 (http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=38790.0)

I actually mentioned specifically and did a description of the roll attack there, so I'd direct your comments to sword moves unrelated to specific items to that topic
: D

Go there and post! We need input!
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on January 24, 2012, 06:03:46 am
Off-topic: Alright, things regarding my personal life will be fully back in order by this weekend so I will start becoming an active participant here again. Max, I apologize for leaving you high and dry for a long period of time. Let's get some work done, yeah?
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Max. on January 24, 2012, 08:47:43 pm
Hell yeah, Stig! Glad to hear everything's worked out smoothly, and again, it's totally fine that you've been busy. I've kinda taken it as a break, too... So nothing has really gotten done. You can find any progress in this and the sword moves topic, but I think we discussed everything there earlier.
So I'll go ahead and drag together a to do list.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on February 16, 2012, 01:46:51 pm
@The ToDo list: has the Google Docs page been publicly released yet, or are you still working on that? I thought that was going to be our wiki, but I guess that might've died. ;p Thought I'd ask.
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: Martijn dh on February 18, 2012, 11:11:59 am
Seemed appropriate to post this here somehow XD
There are some more funny Zelda video's on the guy's channel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01v1tcbniSw
Title: Re: ATTN: Items Group: Items Brainstorm
Post by: thestig on February 22, 2012, 09:02:40 am
Seemed appropriate to post this here somehow XD
There are some more funny Zelda video's on the guy's channel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01v1tcbniSw
Ahaha!! This would be an awesome easter egg

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