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[Cuddle♥Bunny]

Cuddle♥Bunny

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

Of course I am!

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[Mamoruanime]

Mamoruanime

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

Of course I am!

Holy !@#$% I didn't realize you were the same Kesha D:

:| totally sorry for being an !@#$% to you a lot in the past btw

[DJvenom]

DJvenom

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

That's pretty messed up that the person who runs the event basically accused you of cheating... They really should just incorporate a positive only voting system so the game that gets the most thumbs up wins best in show, or they should have stated that stars would have no play in the overall outcome of the competition... 1-5 averaging is too easy to negatively exploit, 5 5's can easily be turned into a 3-4 with a few troll 1's. It just feels like this year they force-fed us 2-3 games, then the rest just got brushed aside as filler. Fan games by the people, for the people. Not Fan games by the people, for 2-3 people who run an event...

I do art

I ermmm... DID do art

I do art

[Cuddle♥Bunny]

Cuddle♥Bunny

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

well, the past is the past, doesn't mean much to me.

I think Mecha was definitely being unfair, there seemed to be a lot of people accusing booths of being rigged for votes because they had a lot of voters and while it's possible I doubt that was the case with any of the booths. The rating system wasn't considered much at all by the staff in regards to anything, and it's our fault for not informing people that it didn't matter.

Best of Show has been decided by the staff since the beginning, and if you're new to the even then I apologize for not informing you, but I didn't even know how it was decided until the end of last year's event! But yeah, basically the staff decide, and that's really all there is to it. I'd like to change it, I think there's a lot more fun ways to decide it and ways that involve the community more, but I can't make any guarantees right now.

If you don't want to show up next year, that's fine, I can understand. There's going to be some internal changes within the staff for next year though, so the event will probably run a bit differently so you might not want to give up just yet.

Also I take feedback very seriously, I want to make the event as good as it can possibly be, so I appreciate hearing the concerns you have. If you have any other issues, feel free to post them here or on the NCFC forums.

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[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

Kesha/Cuddle Bunny: What really bothers me, is something that I also saw last year. The winners are just announced on the front page in a list. There is nothing about how you came to the decision and together with the ratings for an outsider it paints the wrong picture.

The post says something about bad reviews on a radio and irc. Me as an outsider only sees the site. All the events mostly take place during night time when I'm sleeping here in Europe, thus I only go by the little bit what the site has to offer me. Which is a list of booths with annonymous rating system and a list of winners.

[FISSURE]

FISSURE

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

Sorry mammo, but he has a good point

because they're rigged as !@#$%.


We wouldn't want something like LoZ: Oracle of Secrets to win just because it has good ratings, now would we?
It got bad reviews on the radio, in the irc and just in general for not having enough content but somehow it's rating is massive. It's very obviously rigged.

We want to make the event as fair as possible. Just because some specific booths take advantage of the fact that rating doesn't require registration, doesn't mean we should completely ignore their content and make them the best of show.

Although i haven't tried the demo yet, this reminds me of the whole Pokemon game POTM fiasco

It's only "rigged" because the projects that have had more exposure get more votes. That's about it <_<...
People who vote multiple times only influence the star rating by a fraction, since there are way more legitimate voters than illegitimate ones. One low vote can drastically change the average.

Ahh i see, my bad.

That's pretty messed up that the person who runs the event basically accused you of cheating... They really should just incorporate a positive only voting system so the game that gets the most thumbs up wins best in show, or they should have stated that stars would have no play in the overall outcome of the competition... 1-5 averaging is too easy to negatively exploit, 5 5's can easily be turned into a 3-4 with a few troll 1's. It just feels like this year they force-fed us 2-3 games, then the rest just got brushed aside as filler. Fan games by the people, for the people. Not Fan games by the people, for 2-3 people who run an event...

Although having the stars voting thing does seem pretty pointless if they're pretty much just gonna ignore it over having a set amount of people pick the winners.

well, the past is the past, doesn't mean much to me.

I think Mecha was definitely being unfair, there seemed to be a lot of people accusing booths of being rigged for votes because they had a lot of voters and while it's possible I doubt that was the case with any of the booths. The rating system wasn't considered much at all by the staff in regards to anything, and it's our fault for not informing people that it didn't matter.

Best of Show has been decided by the staff since the beginning, and if you're new to the even then I apologize for not informing you, but I didn't even know how it was decided until the end of last year's event! But yeah, basically the staff decide, and that's really all there is to it. I'd like to change it, I think there's a lot more fun ways to decide it and ways that involve the community more, but I can't make any guarantees right now.

If you don't want to show up next year, that's fine, I can understand. There's going to be some internal changes within the staff for next year though, so the event will probably run a bit differently so you might not want to give up just yet.

Also I take feedback very seriously, I want to make the event as good as it can possibly be, so I appreciate hearing the concerns you have. If you have any other issues, feel free to post them here or on the NCFC forums.

Are the staff that pick the winners every year the same each year, or is say 5 out of say 10 of the staff chosen, then they vote?  I guess it's nice to have judges but i don't really see anywhere on the site where they explain why exactly they picked the games they picked, no opinions on them and such.

I agree with Niek, i also only see mostly the site. Is there no sort of Comment system on the site, kind of like ZFGC has?

[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

I agree with Niek, i also only see mostly the site. Is there no sort of Comment system on the site, kind of like ZFGC has?

After some digging I saw a community forum that has topics for each booth. But the topics aren't really connected to the booth. What you actually need with the booths is a way to post comments without the need to register, but with the ability to sign a name to it.

I actually think that the mistakes we see here are also good lessons for some Z3 event if ZFGC decides to organise one again.

[MechaBowser]

MechaBowser

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

yeah I might've been unfair in calling it rigged but it was called out many times for having, well, suspicious voters. It was featured on the radio/irc for five minutes where we did a live review, and it wasn't very thrilling to say the least. Then we see that it's got the highest ratings. Makes one wonder.

Yeah it had lots of voters, but it doesn't change the fact that the total output of the rating was a whole lot of 5 star votes for a two minute standard movement engine. That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, and a lot of other booth hosts were a bit pissed because they never got a chance to be on top of that list, deserving it or not.

I get especially ticked when the creator of this game starts to wonder why he didn't win best of show, which gives the impression that he just threw something out there and made sure he got a lot of votes to get e-fame.

This is the first year where we've had a bad case of suspicious ratings. But you have to remember that in past NCFC events, ratings have never been used for anything other than guidelines. Then this year we add a IRC feature that makes a big deal out of it and it suddenly becomes a big deal. But it never was.

A lesson is learnt but the damage is irreversible. NCFC is by fangamers for fangamers and we can all contribute to make it a better event!

Are the staff that pick the winners every year the same each year, or is say 5 out of say 10 of the staff chosen, then they vote?  I guess it's nice to have judges but i don't really see anywhere on the site where they explain why exactly they picked the games they picked, no opinions on them and such.

The winners were announced during the NCFC closing ceremony. Reasons were given during this!

• 

[Mamoruanime]

Mamoruanime

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

There is a major difference between general curiosity, and being asshurt.

For me, fangaming is the low end of game development. I don't particularly care if OoSecrets won or not because it was simply a tech demo to show effects, text engines, event systems, and other sources I made for another IP of mine. Only thing's I was super stoked to show were the original graphics and cutscenes, which were apparently overlooked. Entering it in NCFC was an afterthought when Z3 was cancelled. That being said, raising my e-peen over a tech demo in fan-game's clothing doesn't really mean anything to me. My question however was in regards to how misleading NCFC is in presentation. It shows booths, and allows users to vote. Votes go towards nothing, and a few people hand select the winners. It's kind of a slap in the face to the people who voted, isn't it?

I just don't see the incentive in following it when you're basically presenting your game to a few staffers for review who's opinions are probably riddled with bias to begin with, and dismissing votes because they're "rigged" or "IRC didn't agree" just seems like a copout. For as many "5 star ratings" a project gets, I bet there's even more 1 star ratings. It balances itself out to the point that those extreme ratings don't even matter anymore. You might as well say AM2R was rigged because of it's high volume of votes, but again- it has a fanbase outside of it's roots. OoSecrets has more votes because, as I said on NCFC's forums- it has a following outside of ZFGC too on Surasshu's side of things, not to mention the communities who got to see the original artwork I made for the project. It just seems pointless to chastise something just because it's votes aren't from  the forum the project debuted on.

That aside; I can only hope NCFC matures into a more refined site over the years. It's just not there yet.

[FISSURE]

FISSURE

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

yeah I might've been unfair in calling it rigged but it was called out many times for having, well, suspicious voters. It was featured on the radio/irc for five minutes where we did a live review, and it wasn't very thrilling to say the least. Then we see that it's got the highest ratings. Makes one wonder.

Yeah it had lots of voters, but it doesn't change the fact that the total output of the rating was a whole lot of 5 star votes for a two minute standard movement engine. That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, and a lot of other booth hosts were a bit pissed because they never got a chance to be on top of that list, deserving it or not.

I get especially ticked when the creator of this game starts to wonder why he didn't win best of show, which gives the impression that he just threw something out there and made sure he got a lot of votes to get e-fame.

This is the first year where we've had a bad case of suspicious ratings. But you have to remember that in past NCFC events, ratings have never been used for anything other than guidelines. Then this year we add a IRC feature that makes a big deal out of it and it suddenly becomes a big deal. But it never was.

A lesson is learnt but the damage is irreversible. NCFC is by fangamers for fangamers and we can all contribute to make it a better event!

Are the staff that pick the winners every year the same each year, or is say 5 out of say 10 of the staff chosen, then they vote?  I guess it's nice to have judges but i don't really see anywhere on the site where they explain why exactly they picked the games they picked, no opinions on them and such.

The winners were announced during the NCFC closing ceremony. Reasons were given during this!

Wonderful!, i don't see the closing ceremonies on the site. Therefore i can't actually see the closing ceremonies bro.

[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

This is the first year where we've had a bad case of suspicious ratings. But you have to remember that in past NCFC events, ratings have never been used for anything other than guidelines. Then this year we add a IRC feature that makes a big deal out of it and it suddenly becomes a big deal. But it never was.

Are the staff that pick the winners every year the same each year, or is say 5 out of say 10 of the staff chosen, then they vote?  I guess it's nice to have judges but i don't really see anywhere on the site where they explain why exactly they picked the games they picked, no opinions on them and such.

The winners were announced during the NCFC closing ceremony. Reasons were given during this!

No offense, but those things are not on the site. There are no recordings. Thus only people who were able to join or tune in at that moment and the people who actually knew about it, are witness to the event. The rest only has to second guess what has happened during that time.

[FISSURE]

FISSURE

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

This is the first year where we've had a bad case of suspicious ratings. But you have to remember that in past NCFC events, ratings have never been used for anything other than guidelines. Then this year we add a IRC feature that makes a big deal out of it and it suddenly becomes a big deal. But it never was.

Are the staff that pick the winners every year the same each year, or is say 5 out of say 10 of the staff chosen, then they vote?  I guess it's nice to have judges but i don't really see anywhere on the site where they explain why exactly they picked the games they picked, no opinions on them and such.

The winners were announced during the NCFC closing ceremony. Reasons were given during this!

No offense, but those things are not on the site. There are no recordings. Thus only people who were able to join or tune in at that moment and the people who actually knew about it, are witness to the event. The rest only has to second guess what has happened during that time.

Oh niek you have to be wrong, i am sure the closing ceremony thing is somewhere on their site. No way they would have it on like IRC or some crap where the only way to see why they picked the games would be to show up at a specific time they have to know that the world has a zillion different timezones and that it would be stupid to host it off-site and not even put the basic premise of why they voted for such and such game on their website for everyone to read over later.

[MechaBowser]

MechaBowser

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

No offense, but those things are not on the site. There are no recordings. Thus only people who were able to join or tune in at that moment and the people who actually knew about it, are witness to the event. The rest only has to second guess what has happened during that time.

Yeah, the NCFC site hasn't been as used as much as it should have, we've been primarily focusing on the chat. You're not the first to bring this up, and in retrospect we agree entirely! Food for thought I suppose.

That said, there's transcripts of all the major events, including the closing ceremony. If they're not up already, then they'll become available one of the following days. If they're not available yet then it's because they're being cleaned up so it's not a complete mess.
I believe the chat contained roughly 30 clients during the closing ceremony, although I didn't get to enjoy it much myself either (laptop died in the middle of it all).

There is a major difference between general curiosity, and being asshurt.

For me, fangaming is the low end of game development. I don't particularly care if OoSecrets won or not because it was simply a tech demo to show effects, text engines, event systems, and other sources I made for another IP of mine. Only thing's I was super stoked to show were the original graphics and cutscenes, which were apparently overlooked. Entering it in NCFC was an afterthought when Z3 was cancelled. That being said, raising my e-peen over a tech demo in fan-game's clothing doesn't really mean anything to me. My question however was in regards to how misleading NCFC is in presentation. It shows booths, and allows users to vote. Votes go towards nothing, and a few people hand select the winners. It's kind of a slap in the face to the people who voted, isn't it?

I just don't see the incentive in following it when you're basically presenting your game to a few staffers for review who's opinions are probably riddled with bias to begin with, and dismissing votes because they're "rigged" or "IRC didn't agree" just seems like a copout. For as many "5 star ratings" a project gets, I bet there's even more 1 star ratings. It balances itself out to the point that those extreme ratings don't even matter anymore. You might as well say AM2R was rigged because of it's high volume of votes, but again- it has a fanbase outside of it's roots. OoSecrets has more votes because, as I said on NCFC's forums- it has a following outside of ZFGC too on Surasshu's side of things, not to mention the communities who got to see the original artwork I made for the project. It just seems pointless to chastise something just because it's votes aren't from  the forum the project debuted on.

The point is that OoSecrets, despite how much of a tech demo it is, is lacking massively in gameplay compared to other games. Yeah, it's a tech demo but that doesn't change the fact that the other games have more to them and deserve the title more. That's why it didn't win. If it had won based entirely on stars, people would feel more cheated than you're feeling now. Or not feeling. Actually I'm not too sure what you're trying to say.

Regardless, the ratings have always been used purely as guidelines and never been the final call. Because that would be stupid.

That aside; I can only hope NCFC matures into a more refined site over the years. It's just not there yet.

I don't get this. You're entirely free to give us a call, tell us you want to join the team and show us how it's done. We're not businessmen expecting any kind of income from this, we're your average fangamers wanting to bring fangaming all over the internet together. We're not trying to put shame on you, nor are we trying to cheat you. We just want to have a great time, and if you know how to have a great time better than us then you should definitely show us!

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[4Sword]

4Sword

Re: NCFC 2010 - Uh-Oh Spaghetti-O's

ZFGC has lost a lot of its mojo and swagger and that is something which needs to be improved upon. I guess if there were more projects in its category the rating system would have been more applicable but when it came down to choosing between the two top ones from the Zelda category - it would be a little more fair to choose its winner based on people who went ahead and played the fan games. I think my previous remarks were a little misguided and now understand that overall as stated by MechaBowser and Kesha the winners did end up mostly corresponding to rating system.

I guess there is no use in being bitter, we just have to step our game up the next time and prepare better for the event.