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Author Topic: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant  (Read 22811 times)

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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2008, 04:04:49 pm »
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I just have to say this, possum, because of a comment of yours about respecting Atheist 'beliefs': Atheism is the lack of a belief in any gods or divine powers. I've said it before and I'll say it again, absence of belief and belief in an absence are two separate things.
As far as I'm aware, that's not how society uses it.  Someone who has a 'lack of belief' is called 'agnostic' (basically someone who probably *does* know, but they just want to act noncommital).  Someone who has the audacity to say that there is no God, and that they know this for a fact is an 'atheist'.

Anyhow, even if we're looking at dictionary definitions... the only one coming from dictionary.com is:

"a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings."

Disbelief is a belief in and of itself.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist

"one who believes that there is no deity"

Again, the only definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist

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Noun 1. atheist - someone who denies the existence of god
disbeliever, nonbeliever, unbeliever - someone who refuses to believe (as in a divinity)
Adj. 1. atheist - related to or characterized by or given to atheism; "atheist leanings"
atheistical, atheistic

Hmm...

http://www.yourdictionary.com/atheist

"a person who believes that there is no God"

It would help if people didn't try to "zing" me with spelling and definitions, and tried to make me look bad on the actual substance that I'm supposedly all wrong about.

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The problem that I have with aspects of Christianity is that there are those who think that it makes them good just to follow it and there are those who see others who follow it as inherently good.
Sometimes the reason religious people follow things based on "faith", is because religion gives us guidelines where we won't have to learn by trial and error, but we base our own judgement on the trials and errors of others.  Religion doesn't make one a good person.  Someone doing something simply because of their religion isn't necessarily bad, but it doesn't necessarily do them good either.  You know?

I don't see why the lack of understanding of others (people believing their good simply because they're religious... a hypocracy in and of itself), should scare you away from something, so many people have come to find is good.

But again, this is a personal decision.
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2008, 06:11:14 pm »
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If Agnostic is lack of belief (aka, I do not believe in a god) and Atheist is (I believe they is no god) then when you listen to the majority of the major figures who are 'well known atheists', they must be Agnostic. To quote the awesome and strangely smexy 'psychological illusionist', Derren Brown
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It's a nonsense to say that atheism is a belief in itself. However much its fiercest advocates might sometimes sound like the fundamentalists they rampage against, it's important to remember that non-belief is simply happening not to believe.

Actually, I say everyone goes out and buys his book "Tricks of the Mind", even if you don't care about the memory, magic and hypnosis/suggestibility sections, it is still an amazing read, and has some nice sections on how he stopped being Christian, and also about how to avoid 'bad thinking' and falling into 'the trap of superstition'.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 06:14:16 pm by TheDarkJay »
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 09:43:03 pm »
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Well... your post completely disreguards me pulling out all those definitions from random sources (do you need more?  I have yet to find any kind of "official" source that defines it as you do-- prominent Christians don't define what Christianity is, so I don't know why prominent atheists would define what atheism is).  But whatever.  It's not worth discussing anyway.  I still don't respect athiesm, so paint me as whatever you'd like, people can form their own opinions about mine. ;)
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 09:49:14 pm »
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You're an atheist too you know, you just believe in one more god than I do.  Anyway, most of the talk on the television seems to be getting away from Bristol Palin and back to covering the Republican convention, other storms going on, etc. 
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 10:10:34 pm »
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You're an atheist too you know, you just believe in one more god than I do.  Anyway, most of the talk on the television seems to be getting away from Bristol Palin and back to covering the Republican convention, other storms going on, etc. 
Some of the definitions above refer to "God" (I can assume to mean what Christianity believes in), others "a god" or "supreme being(s)".  Yes, Christianity differs from Buddhism, Islam and so forth, but in the end, we all believe in some kind of supreme being(s).  Atheism denies this belief generally (with one exception in the above definitions that makes it specific to denying Christianity, in which case I *still* wouldn't be an atheist).  At least, according to the definitions I pulled off the intarweb.

[EDIT] Gotta love technicalities... next my poor grammar is going to be attacked.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 10:13:19 pm by 2awesome4apossum »
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2008, 10:40:14 pm »
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You're an atheist too you know, you just believe in one more god than I do.  Anyway, most of the talk on the television seems to be getting away from Bristol Palin and back to covering the Republican convention, other storms going on, etc. 
I think that the republican convention was talking about hurricane Gustav for a while, but I guess they are getting back to other issues. I doubt that this "teen pregnancy" thing will do any harm to their agenda at all, in fact, it might bolster republicans (if anything) just because the girl is getting married and "doing the right thing".
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2008, 10:54:30 pm »
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I love how everyone is taking shots at Possum's grammar when there are no real grammatical errors to take pot shots at. Come up with a better argument. Also, I love how religion has somehow been drug into an issue which really doesn't have anything to do with religion to begin with. Admittedly, that was Possum's error, but I suppose everyone can be at fault for beating the proverbial dead horse. Someone needs to write a guide to proper Internet Argument Etiquette because you all clearly need one.

Anyway, in the world of politics, anything that somehow blemishes the reputations of the imperfect candidates is fair game for the opposing party. Naturally, the fact that Palin's daughter is pregnant is the opportunity the Dems have been waiting for. Of course, if cakefarts had a daughter that was pregnant, the Republicans would be all over it as well, but as I said before, that's how politics work these days. Personally, I don't give a flying !@#$% if her daughter is pregnant, and no one else should either. Why? Because she is not her daughter. Palin isn't the one pregnant out of wedlock, so she shouldn't be bashed for it.
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2008, 10:56:25 pm »
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I mentioned his grammar once only after he made a bad claim against me; it's like you missed all of what else I was saying.

Yes, let us all frame this as an attack on you, you are the one being persecuted.  I only "attacked" your grammar because it highlighted your hypocrisy - claiming that I did not know about any other religion simply because I define myself as being an atheist, you probably would have criticize me if I misspelled Christianity because you thought I did not know anything about it.  Everyone is born an atheist, and if I am wrong when I die and if it turns out that there is a god, his or her denial of me based on my earthly knowledge would make me sympathize with the devil.  The devil probably does things because he knows that all Christians will do is sing, dance, and pray about it rather than do anything substantial; I bet he does it for shits and giggles.

Really, I couldn't walk up to anyone saying that a rock I was holding had magical powers; because that is supernatural.  In logic, it is said that you cannot prove non-existence, but also that the burden of proof lies on those trying to prove something.  With that last statement, one would wonder why I am an atheist if I could not prove that gods didn't exist - well even if they did, they wouldn't be having an impact on my life so they would be as good as gone and the Bible contradicts itself enough to make it unreasonable.

As for my quote, if you know so much to deny all other gods and just believe in one, what would you think if you were wrong and Ra or whoever was pissed at you.  Wouldn't that be unfair? 


As for the Republican Convention, I am just happy that Bush is speaking as his presence to the party reinvigorates my side. 




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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2008, 11:03:20 am »
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Possum, to use some of your quoted dictionaries we have to take into account the numerous ways to understand "disbelieves". Does it mean Does not belief, or believe in the absence? Language is a fickle !@#$% at best.

Besides, let's assume all the atheists here are really agnostic and simply do not believe in a god. why? Well, for me it's simply because I cannot, in my mind, separate religion from psychic powers, homoeopathy, astrology and mediums. How is a belief in psychic powers any different from a belief in God? The only real difference is the latter is more mainstream. That's it. Aren't they all guilty of falling into the same traps of cyclic logic and groundless presumptions?

I call it the superstition trap, a combination of:
Falsely attributing coincidence to actions (I can cite several famous bird experiments which, when altered for people, show the same results...a casino is really a giant example of this. How many gamblers have lucky pants? Or a lucky hat? Yet looking at the odds, in games of pure chance they perform the same wearing these supposedly lucky items as they do without them. At best all they get is a confidence boost from them. Prayers work in a similar way)
Cyclic logic
Unconsciously dismissing all contradicting evidence (People forget their unanswered prayers, or decide they must have been answered in a different way, and remember and amplify the hits)
Awaiting for a person to prove a negative when it should be on the claimer (i.e he claiming God exists) to prove the positive.
Several other factors.

Religion is just one big superstition.

Another good example is Ouija boards, through ideomotor sometimes the little glass 'cap' can overshoot the board and fly off the edge because someone or groups of someones unconsciously PUSH it off the edge. How easy is it for, after being remembered and retold so many times, this story to change from it going off the edge with people touching it to it flying off the edge, smashing into a wall without ever being touched? Surprisingly easy.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 11:07:37 am by TheDarkJay »
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2008, 05:24:34 pm »
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I mentioned his grammar once only after he made a bad claim against me; it's like you missed all of what else I was saying.
Which wasn't much, admittedly.

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Yes, let us all frame this as an attack on you, you are the one being persecuted.  I only "attacked" your grammar because it highlighted your hypocrisy - claiming that I did not know about any other religion simply because I define myself as being an atheist, you probably would have criticize me if I misspelled Christianity because you thought I did not know anything about it.
Well, no.  When I attack someone's intelligence, I don't do it by saying, "You spelled that wrong, you're obviously an idiot."  I explain to them why I think they're an idiot... it's possible I'd use the spelling as an afterthought... but I've responded to everything you've said, and the main point seems to be trying to make me look stupid with stuff that really has nothing to do with our argument at all.

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Everyone is born an atheist,
What about the "God gene"?  (The one that scientists say makes one desire religion?)  I haven't seen really enough evidence for it, but I wouldn't be surprised at all, if it actually *did* exist.  Despite it being a pointless argument made by some atheists (not meaning to generalize here, since I have to phrase everything in a politically correct way).

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and if I am wrong when I die and if it turns out that there is a god, his or her denial of me based on my earthly knowledge would make me sympathize with the devil.  The devil probably does things because he knows that all Christians will do is sing, dance, and pray about it rather than do anything substantial; I bet he does it for shits and giggles.
At least my sect of Christianity believes God will put you where you're most comfortable.  If you don't want to be with Him, he won't put you with Him.  He'll let you be in a place with others like you.  It's an interesting thought, I don't think you've considered before that I thought you might find interesting.

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In logic, it is said that you cannot prove non-existence, but also that the burden of proof lies on those trying to prove something.
Religion doesn't have the burden of trying to make itself a scientific theory.  Who cares if there's no disprovability?

The idea of evolution-- the reason it's not a scientific theory is because there is no standard of disprovability upon which it can be measured by.  (Which is a standard it MUST have by defintion-- it's what makes it a theory.)

This is why the Pope doesn't use science, because it's *not* science.  This is also why evolutionism seems more of a religion than science to me.

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With that last statement, one would wonder why I am an atheist if I could not prove that gods didn't exist - well even if they did, they wouldn't be having an impact on my life so they would be as good as gone and the Bible contradicts itself enough to make it unreasonable.
The Bible that was written, translated and handed down for generations by... humans?  The not-supernatural kind?

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As for my quote, if you know so much to deny all other gods and just believe in one, what would you think if you were wrong and Ra or whoever was pissed at you.  Wouldn't that be unfair?
I think so, but I don't believe in Ra.  I believe in a God who wouldn't be missed off if you had geniune misinformation in your life.

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As for the Republican Convention, I am just happy that Bush is speaking as his presence to the party reinvigorates my side.
You'll notice a major focus was put on differences between him and McCain.  I don't think it was counterproductive by much.  cakefarts's trying to frame him as just another Bushy, and the entire point of last night (and Lieberman's excellent speech) was that McCain is an independent man.  Obviously the theme was that he "puts his country before party" and knows how bipartisanship works.  I think that if geniune undecideds matter (although they're probably negligable), that this would have worked as a really strong argument in favor of McCain/Palin.

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Language is a fickle !@#$% at best.
Well the exact defining of what atheism was, is your argument.  Let me quote your first post (what I've been reacting to):

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I just have to say this, possum, because of a comment of yours about respecting Atheist 'beliefs': Atheism is the lack of a belief in any gods or divine powers. I've said it before and I'll say it again, absence of belief and belief in an absence are two separate things.
Well, I don't respect the belief that there "is no God (or "a god" or "supreme being", etc.)".

As far as I can tell, that's what atheism is.  But if it's a mere lack of belief, then whatever.  It really doesn't matter to me.
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2008, 05:45:46 pm »
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Since when is Teenage Americans getting pregnant a new thing? Or worth caring about?

Still QFT. Shut the !@#$% up already, its bad enough hearing this from Digg.
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So what! I wanna get out! 'Cos there's so much out there! So many different people, living different lives! Incredibly good guys, bad guys... Folks completely different from us! It's one huge melting pot! See, it's not about success, dying in the streets, who's better, who's not! I just want to be a part of it! I realized that even if I've no connections, no talent, even if I'm one big loser, I want to use my hands and feet to think and move, to shape my own life! We can just die here or we can try, see what we've got!
Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #31 on: September 03, 2008, 06:00:57 pm »
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You are acting like the whole point of my message was wrapped up in criticizing a spelling mistake and you are so hinged to that because you cannot otherwise make an argument.  I used it as a hook and then stated why I went there - you were acting like I did not know anything about Christianity when you yourself only see Atheism as vacuous.  You had to look up something on my Facebook in an attempt to downplay what I believe; even if you read the Koran, why should I believe you on anything it says just because you are dead set in your opinion that it is wrong anyway.  You might think that this makes it so I cannot state anything about Christianity, but at least I never claim to be an authority on Christianity. 

As for the rest of what you said, I am not going to comment because I am tired of this stupid argument.  I'm going to go worship Satan now.

Oh, and I am going to watch Palin's speech tonight and hopefully her shrill voice won't make my ears bleed but whatever.  I'll just have to watch it muted with closed captioning.

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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #32 on: September 03, 2008, 06:46:40 pm »
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You are acting like the whole point of my message was wrapped up in criticizing a spelling mistake and you are so hinged to that because you cannot otherwise make an argument.  I used it as a hook and then stated why I went there -

I assume you're talking about this part:
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that does not mean that I know nothing about religion or that you can act superior over me in your knowledge of such a thing.
Which I addressed.  I love to study all kinds of religions.  With your lack of knowledge, yes, I was asserting my knowledge was superior to yours in the subject of religions.  I stand by that.

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you were acting like I did not know anything about Christianity when you yourself only see Atheism as vacuous.
But if you'll remember *my* argument was that to apply your sense of logic, being an atheist, to a Christian family is a fallacy.  Instead of accepting that fact, you went to point out a mispelling I made to make me look illiterate and stupid.

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You had to look up something on my Facebook in an attempt to downplay what I believe;
Instead of just saying "well, you're an atheist, so you probably don't understand something you don't care about", I cited where I learned where you were an atheist, just in case you tried to argue *that*. ;)
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #33 on: September 03, 2008, 07:00:18 pm »
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Look, I said I was done arguing because this isn't getting anywhere.  My parents are Christian and when I was younger they tried to make me into a Christian to which I later got away from and I am happy about that; as far as I am concerned they are just individuals who fit a technicality of being related to me.  This is my last post in this topic, all you are doing is being picky over one statement I made which was not even the entirety of my argument and assuming that I know nothing about religions.  This isn't worth my time.
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2008, 07:12:47 pm »
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That's fine, no one is forcing you to continue.  I've addressed almost every word you've said, so I don't see what the problem is, but you haven't addressed anywhere near everything I've said just in response to what you've said.

Cheers!
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2008, 07:15:27 pm »
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Going to move this to debates seeing as well... it's turned into one :P
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!@#$% I lost my entire post, god dammit.
Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2008, 07:52:56 pm »
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Possum, could you address some more of what I said? Because as far as I can tell you completely ignored my "How is a belief religion any different from a belief in Horoscopes, Homeopathy and Psychic powers?" question.

Then again, this is why I think arguments work better when done over books, because when done in interviews or forums people always miss out certain parts (maybe without realising), whilst the author of a book generally has a serious need to cover as much ground and make his arguments as well thought out as possible.

Just a guess here, but the 'god gene' is most likely the idea of it being, for the more war-like primitive humans especially but arguably for modern society as well, socially and evolutionarily beneficial for them to have some kind of 'binding force' that holds society together. To use one example, Those who believe the gods can strike them down if they do something 'wrong' are less likely to do something wrong which could incur punishment for them that renders them unable to pass on their genes (or life lessons to their children, which would make it more like the god meme ;P). This could of course be applied to obedience of a leader and fear of the police as well
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 08:00:56 pm by TheDarkJay »
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2008, 08:18:34 pm »
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Her daughter decided to !@#$% someone without a condom... who cares?

How do you know they didnt use a condom?
Condoms can break & no contraception is 100% effective.
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2008, 08:39:52 pm »
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I'm sure heavily religious people consider any form of contraception as a sin, which stems from the original belief that the sperm was the whole life and the woman was merely a carrier, so any form of ejaculation that could not impregnate a woman was murder.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 08:42:24 pm by TheDarkJay »
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Re: Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant
« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2008, 09:49:50 pm »
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Possum, could you address some more of what I said? Because as far as I can tell you completely ignored my "How is a belief religion any different from a belief in Horoscopes, Homeopathy and Psychic powers?" question.

I know this wasn't directed at me, and I know I'm not answering the question completely, but in Christianity's defense, belief in an omnipotent deity outside of this dimension seems a lot more logical than the belief that the positions of masses of dirt and ice floating in a void will somehow increase your odds of winning the lottery.

Oh, and if ejaculating without causing a pregnancy is murder, I kill somewhere between 7-9 babies a week. Yay fapping!
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Hear the haunting words (They'll find you alone)
lost children with no heart are crying (Turning their hearts into stone)
and you're the lost mother they're calling
Go now, run and hide (seek more than vengeance)
I hear them crying at night (your pain is their satisfaction)
outside when the planets are falling (for the rest of time)
They want to feel and know you hear them (Go now, run and hide)

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