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How would using up arrow as action instead of C work?

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Another option sounds better (please specify in post)
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controls question
« on: August 28, 2015, 05:49:04 pm »
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Just tinkering with controls for a bit.  Lets lay down some theory behind the controls here:

WASD is used for movement because of the layout of a gameboy/snes controller/nes controller etc.  Movement is controlled by the left hand while items by the right.  WASD was chosen to keep that consistency.  Thus, shift and spacebar were chosen as shield and sword since the pinky and thumb fall right on those keys.

Left and Right arrow were chosen arbitrarily as the item keys.  Given that, the middle finger falls right on the up arrow key.  Would it then make more sense and be more comfortable to move the action button from C to up arrow? I personally shouldn't be answering this question myself.  Being a guitarist, my hand is a bit more flexible and I don't have trouble hitting the C key from that position so I'm reaching out for feedback on this new position first.
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Miles07

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Re: controls question
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2015, 06:04:36 pm »
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Another option sounds better:
Make all controls customizable. :P

No, seriously, if we are using SNES-style controls, then look at the control scheme for A Link to the Past:
Y was for items
B was for sword
A was for actions
and X was for maps
  X
Y+A
  B
You can have the Arrow Keys follow that format for starters, and make modifications as you wish. Since the Sword and Shield will be moved to Space Bar and Shift, respectively, then B (Down) remains free.

And then what if there are conflicting "actions" that you want to have to toggle through? Like, in ALttP, the Action button let you lift pots and grab and drag items, but they were also used for the Pegasus Boots if you weren't near something that could be grabbed, lifted, etc. Unless you make sure these conflicts don't exist (making the Pegasus Boots an item, using the aforementioned example), and/or eliminate "combo controls" (like pressing A and B with the Bombs and the Bow&Arrows equipped, like in Link's Awakening, in order to shoot Bomb Arrows), you'll run into another problem with keyboards: the simultaneous character limit. Most keyboards have a buffer limit of 3 or 4 keys, which prevent any more buttons from being registered. Put simply, having more keys to use makes for trouble, because you'll likely have a player try to strafe diagonally while swiping a sword and performing some action (W + A + Space + Up), which gets really close to overloading that buffer. (On Windows machines, though, I believe that the utility keys "Ctrl", "Alt", and "Shift" are exceptions to that limit, but I'm not 100% sure on that.)

Sorry, I'm rambling. But these should be points for you to consider when adding/changing control schemes.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 06:12:09 pm by Miles07 »
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Re: controls question
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2015, 06:07:31 pm »
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Interesting, we don't have a map button either so that could fit all the functionality pretty nicely.  Customizable can come later, but there still needs to be a default scheme.
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Re: controls question
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 09:30:07 pm »
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So I finally got to play the demo! I thought that C for actions was kind awful. I couldn't roll to the right at all since D for right was my index finger, which is also the finger for C. I also didn't honestly like space for the sword, since I can't hit it with my right hand if my right hand is on the arrows. Also, didn't we decide that the sword and shield should be items, like the bow or bombs like it is in the gameboy zeldas? Or why not the left, down, and right arrows being three items slots/two item slots and a sword slot, and having up as the action?

I don't know how well SNES or any other controllers can directly transfer to computer, since there's the difference that on a controller you're mostly using your thumbs, while a computer doesn't use thumbs nearly as much. But the whole mainly left hand for moving, mainly right hand for doing stuff is a good principal, which is why (I think) C doesn't work well as an action button, it's the left hand. I play guitar too, but are you seriously hitting C with your right hand? Maybe our keyboards are different, but my right hand's maximum (and therefore uncomfortable and clumsy) span is from C to right arrow. That's also why I don't like sword as space, because that's a left hand control.

I would personally feel more confortable playing something like this:

WASD to move
Left, Right as item slots
Down as sword
Up as action button
Spacebar as talk/read
Enter as pause/item screen
Shift as map

That would seem to keep all the controls on the same hands as they were in Minish Cap and Link to the Past, I think. I was thinking talk/read should be their own button different than the action button mainly because of pick pocketing, how would you talk to those people, would you have to circle around them to their faces so you don't steal from them accidentally when trying to ask directions? That would also alleviate accidentally talking to someone when you're just trying to roll past or something.
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Re: controls question
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 09:51:18 pm »
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Quote
I play guitar too, but are you seriously hitting C with your right hand?

No, I'm using my left hand for everything there.  Thumb for space and C, pinky for shift.  The scheme was designed to isolate the two hands on both sides of the keyboard.  If you're using your right hand on the left side of the keyboard, you're not using it as intended.

Quote
how would you talk to those people, would you have to circle around them to their faces so you don't steal from them accidentally when trying to ask directions?

Exactly, you can only pick pocket from behind.  From the front is a no-go (wouldn't be very subtle, now would it? haha)

Quote
That would also alleviate accidentally talking to someone when you're just trying to roll past or something.

I'm not so concerned about this, you wouldn't really be in a case like that.  To talk to someone, you have to be facing them from the front.  There's no way you're gonna expect the C button to make you roll when you're facing them point blank lmao

Quote
WASD to move
Left, Right as item slots
Down as sword
Up as action button
Spacebar as talk/read
Enter as pause/item screen
Shift as map

This looks pretty on point with what Miles was saying as well



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Re: controls question
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2015, 10:06:48 pm »
  • It's just Max.
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Oh, left THUMB to hit C to roll. Tried it, seems a little cramped to me, I like up arrow better :P

Quote
how would you talk to those people, would you have to circle around them to their faces so you don't steal from them accidentally when trying to ask directions?

Exactly, you can only pick pocket from behind.  From the front is a no-go (wouldn't be very subtle, now would it? haha)

Quote
That would also alleviate accidentally talking to someone when you're just trying to roll past or something.

I'm not so concerned about this, you wouldn't really be in a case like that.  To talk to someone, you have to be facing them from the front.  There's no way you're gonna expect the C button to make you roll when you're facing them point blank lmao

Haha, okay, I don't think I explained very well. Say the player just wants to talk to this dude he sees walking down the street, he doesn't want to pickpocket the dude (maybe his wallet's full, he doesn't want to risk getting caught, whatever). Usually you can walk up to any side of an NPC to talk to them, does this now mean the player has to work their way around an NPC to their front side in order to talk to them without accidentally stealing their money?

Basically, the question is do you really have to circle around an NPC until you're facing their face in order to chat with them? Since in every other game they turn to face you when you try to talk to them.
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Re: controls question
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2015, 10:14:40 pm »
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Hmm, interesting point.  I never really considered the usability of it.  Maybe it would be best to isolate the talk button then.
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Re: controls question
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2015, 11:12:31 pm »
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That's what I was thinking. Plus, I don't know if it ever happens to you, but I'll be trying to roll around to get through town faster, and I'll accidentally bump into somebody and start talking when what I'm really trying to do is keep rolling, and I have to deal with their long speech. Isolating the talk button (to space or whatever), would prevent that. Of course, then I'll be rolling through town and might accidentally start trying to pickpocket someone...
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Re: controls question
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2015, 11:51:28 pm »
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Was that a thing that happened in the 3D zeldas?  I don't remember how often I accidentally talked to someone while rolling.  I wonder if they added a small cooldown after the roll where you can't talk to someone.
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Re: controls question
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 12:53:21 am »
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You know what, I might be imagining/misremembering it. Or maybe it was when I was swinging a sword or something else. Either way, probably not worth being too concerned about, just a positive side effect of having a devoted talk/read button.
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Re: controls question
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 04:17:06 am »
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I think it's a valid concern, just not super high priority
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Diminish

4Sword
Re: controls question
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 06:59:08 am »
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I can't quite remember if this is so, nor do I know exactly how the roll code was implemented in King of Thieves - but outside of a cool-down period, one could also have the check to do the talk prior to the roll movement, have it to where if Link wasn't in full-control of his movement talking would not be possible, or check an x/y to an xprevious/yprevious to see if Link is in motion currently (to where Link could be, for example, walking up into the NPC/sign but not having moved compared to the last step).
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