ZFGC
General => Other Discussion => Boards => Archive => Debates => Topic started by: 2awesome4apossum on August 02, 2006, 05:07:49 pm
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I've been thinking about it, and it's no wonder that we're so anti-war, anti-guns, anti-self protection. We're taught even in early elementary school that we're not allowed to defend ourselves.
I mean, if someone punches a kid in school, and they punch back, both of the kids get suspended. We're taking away human rights from CHILDREN. You just have to sit there and take someone beating you up, becuase retaliation will earn you suspension.
What kind of a sick, liberal school system is America in today?
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Automatically blame the liberals.
Nice.
<3 you Possum
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Well, it's a liberal philosiphy. I said 'liberal schoolsystem', not 'system run by liberals'. Becuase it's a liberal philosiphy.
So what's the problem, other than you're usually a very angry person trying to make me look bad?
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So what's the problem, other than you're usually a very angry person trying to make me look bad?
So what's the problem, other than you're usually a very angry person trying to make liberals look bad?
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So what's the problem, other than you're usually a very angry person trying to make me look bad?
So what's the problem, other than you're usually a very angry person trying to make liberals look bad?
It's a freaking liberal philosiphy. And it's not MY fault that it's a liberal philosiphy. It's BS and it's a liberal philosiphy. Did I say liberals were the bad guys? NO. I said that the philosiphy is BS, and it is. And it happens to be a liberal philosiphy. A SICK liberal philosiphy.
[EDIT]Is EVERYONE too stupid to actually debate the topic at hand? Does anyone care to actually address the debate, not attacking me on a personal level? And I thought Swiftu was very much against "straw man" arguments ;)
Don't accuse me of Left vs. Right either, because if I had to choose between a paleo-conservative (ie. Clinton) and a liberal (ie. Lieberman), I'd vote the liberal in.
And it's not like I'm saying that Swiftu's a liberal either. He's an isolationistic paleo-conservative when it comes to the war in Iraq. I'm a neo-conservative, which means I demand a balance, becuase both sides have their ups and downs ;)
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I agree about this, not just because being able to defend ourselves is logical, but also because its an urge that in restriction comes out in worse ways.
What should be shown is a discipline towards self (and others) defence: martial arts classes as standard - viola!
Also.. Duh people, just because possums saying this particular liberal philosiphy is silly to him, doesnt mean hes calling liberals silly. He wouldnt generalize like that, and clearly even liberals might not support all liberal philosiphies.
Dont have an act like a cow, man.
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Well, since both kids were fighting they should get punished.
You can't just punish the kid who punched first. It would set a bad example for the kid who hit back.
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Well, since both kids were fighting they should get punished.
You can't just punish the kid who punched first. It would set a bad example for the kid who hit back.
It would set a bad example in that... he defended himself and got away with it? Oh no! ;)
It's like murder vs. manslaughter... they're not the same thing, although both times, one killed someone. We should look at these situation by situation, no?
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Well, since both kids were fighting they should get punished.
You can't just punish the kid who punched first. It would set a bad example for the kid who hit back.
no it wouldn't. I knew this kid who got jumped getting off the bus by a group of people. What was he supposed to do? get pummled? Anyways he got kicked off the bus.
Unnessicarily continueing a huge brawl should be punished, but defending your self should not be. I'm certainly not going to take a beating if I could easily stop it.
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Well, if it's just two little kids in school.
He may have defended himself but he still fought back. Fighting in school is against the rules.
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You should only retaliate if you're in a corner :D, because then it's your only option as you cannot ruuuuuuuuun.
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Fighting in school is against the rules.
And I'm saying that it shouldn't be in PUBLIC schools. :)
You should only retaliate if you're in a corner :D, because then it's your only option as you cannot ruuuuuuuuun.
You're not serious, by chance?
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isnt that just an easy way for schools to try to deal with bullying?
and then being anti war, is just obvious, as war is terrible, unless it's seriously needed because in the end, the good things will add up to overtake the bad things it causes?
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Fighting in school is against the rules.
And I'm saying that it shouldn't be in PUBLIC schools. :)
It shouldn't be against the rules to fight in school?
People could easily fight and blame it on the other kids.
aka "he started it"
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I am serious, if I cannot run or get help and my only option is to hit back (if i've been hit) then I'd funking hit back. You've gotta stand up for yourself if your in a situation like that, I mean it depends who you are. It's get pumelled or get the same pummelling and give someone a black eye? I'd choose the latter. Why? Because I'm human, and I don't subject myself to the restrictions of christianity etc in the form of pacifism.
Starting fights is bad, but finishing them really shouldn't be.
Edit: The fact of the matter is, I know that I'd done right by defending myself, even if whatever judicial system doesn't agree, and anyone with any sense of "honour" wouldn't mind getting hit back if they were starting the fight.
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isnt that just an easy way for schools to try to deal with bullying?
It's an extremist position, that does not allow kids to defend themselves... good intentions? Absolutely. But again: the execution is what *really* counts.
and then being anti war, is just obvious, as war is terrible, unless it's seriously needed because in the end, the good things will add up to overtake the bad things it causes?
The philosiphy is that other people's freedom and democracy will bring our national security. IE. we go in and beat the !@#$% out of the North Korean's government, we become much safer :)
It shouldn't be against the rules to fight in school?
Not with that wording, because it's an extremist position... certainly certain kinds of fighting should be. Remember: fighting in self-defense is legal in public... why not in the public schools?
Starting fights is bad, but finishing them really shouldn't be.
Agreed.
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Fighting in school is against the rules.
And I'm saying that it shouldn't be in PUBLIC schools. :)
It shouldn't be against the rules to fight in school?
People could easily fight and blame it on the other kids.
aka "he started it"
then the adult in charge should frickin' pay attention to what goes on.
seriously, that would have solved alot of my problems in school if teachers paid attention.
Not that I ever got in a fight, technically...I was punched once
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Teacher's can't be everywhere, so unfortunately it's the law of the playground, lol.
Just don't get into fights, it's as simple as then.
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Teacher's can't be everywhere, so unfortunately it's the law of the playground, lol.
Just don't get into fights, it's as simple as then.
Yes, especially when someone comes up to you unprovoked and nails you hard.
You could have avoided that by not existing.
Besides, we have supervisors, cameras... and let's face it... kids while they can be dishonest, you can find "witnesses" if neccessary. Ever remember fights in your elementary schools? Everyone saw what happened :)
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1. If someone is defending themselves they shouldn't be punished.
2. If they are fighting they should.
Pretty obvious huh? But look at it through the teacher's eye. Depending on the situation she maybe can't make it clear who was defending, attacking blah blah blah. So you see, it probably hasn't anything to do with liberal philosiphy. It's just that teachers can't do everything right. It's easier to take both and have a talk with them trying to sort it out (that's my motto; talking gets further than punishing in most cases), not blaming anyone until it is sorted out. It's just like the victim still goes to court (if s/he's still alive).
I can honestly don't see where anyone would want strict punishment on self defence. Meh, maybe it's just an american thing :P Oh, thank good NEITHER liberals nor moderate conservatives rules Sweden xD (We have socialistic government, which also sucks arse, so hopefully left party (revolutionary socialistic) gets more votes this year <.<)
Wow, 10 replys while writing. <.< Can't bother to read it again and risk getting more replies x_X
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!@#$%, there are no witnesses in the playground, if you're picked on for no reason then you will sure as hell have no witnesses, because you're probably being bullied.
If you get into a proper fight which the other guy started he's probably bigger and so any "witnesses" will stand back and you can get your friends to say nothing.
This is a world of perception where you can get into trouble for anything, even if you didn't do it. You've just gotta make sure you get along with people.
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It's just like the victim still goes to court (if s/he's still alive).
And even that's happening more and more often... with our wonderful judges. This is just one of the reasons that the FBI and Police shoot only to kill (and also so the enemy has no chance of retaliating... people's lives are on the line: that's not right to put the innocent in jeapordy).
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Teachers are crap at figuring out what happened and who started what and who did what because they have to rely on "the kids" and "the kids" are just too childish and too damn stupid to tell the teachers what is happening.
The world wants to stop bullying, but it's one of those things that's as uninforcable as stopping P2P.
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My parents always taught me this:
If someone so much as lays a finger on you without your concent, show no mercy. Aim for the balls.
Just my 2 cents. ;)
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Teachers are crap at figuring out what happened and who started what and who did what because they have to rely on "the kids" and "the kids" are just too childish and too damn stupid to tell the teachers what is happening.
The world wants to stop bullying, but it's one of those things that's as uninforcable as stopping P2P.
Sure, but we shouldn't let that get in the way of allowing a kid to fight back, when they're in danger. I have that right in public and private places... why can't I have it in public schools?
My parents always taught me this:
If someone so much as lays a finger on you without your concent, show no mercy. Aim for the balls.
Just my 2 cents. ;)
rofl ;p
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Why aren't you allowed to do it in schools? Because that would get the school a bad reputation for brawwwwwwwwwwwls. You can do it in the street because a single brawl does not affect the entire country, but a single brawl can affect the entire school.
You've gotta realise that in this day and age it's all about image.
Oh and for the whole parents thing, my parents say that I have their full support in fighting back, and parents are much more powerful than the school as odd as it sounds. You can always go to another school :D.
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Teacher's can't be everywhere, so unfortunately it's the law of the playground, lol.
Just don't get into fights, it's as simple as then.
Yes, especially when someone comes up to you unprovoked and nails you hard.
You could have avoided that by not existing.
Besides, we have supervisors, cameras... and let's face it... kids while they can be dishonest, you can find "witnesses" if neccessary. Ever remember fights in your elementary schools? Everyone saw what happened :)
Actually in Elementary school i pretty much never got picked on.
Kids aren't breally that mean until they get older.
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I'm totally for hitting back, despite being as liberal as they come.
However, despite my beliefs, and despite the fact that this is a liberal policy (it's pretty much fact, guys), this doesn't fit with my view of liberalism.
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There IS one solution. If you're trying to defend yourself, and someone is running toward you, hold your first up and when you hit them, just say they ran into your fist. It worked for my friend.
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Difficult matter... I'm partially inclined to agree and fight back, but on the other hand, I'm also a "supporter" of Matthew 5:39.
In general, they shouldn't be supported to fight back, only self-defense. Of course, there are situations in which you can hardly defend yourself without harming the other person.
Honestly put, the best solution would be to never let the other kid punch him. It's not really a matter of "to fight back or not", it's more of a matter "why did the fight even started?".
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Hmmm in my last school it was against the rules to fight but they made all witnesses and people fighting write a statement of what happened, they seemed to allow reasonable force in defence.
For instance once this guy hit me, so I put him in an arm lock and someone went and got a teacher, I only let him go when the teacher arrived and I got in no trouble, he got a week of internal exclusion for starting fights.
I think fighting back is wrong but defending yourself isn't, there is a difference, if you are defending yourself your not breaking the rule of no fighting hehe.
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2a4p, I didn't automatically assume you hated liberals. You just attacked Swiftu personally, and knowing that the school system was liberal didn't really matter to the debate, so I just thought you were taking a stab at liberals. Just as well, you said "sick" and then liberal right after.
On to the debate.
I have mixed feelings. You should have a right to defend yourself, but only in the worst case scenario. I think that most people are saying the typical "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth", or if you get hit, you should be able to hit back. I disagree. I think that if you get hit, you run and tell someone right away. There are other methods of defense rather than going on the offense. The only time I'd ever hit back is if I was in a situation in which I couldn't run or get away from the fight - I'd just defend myself for as long as I could, hit back, and when the other person was either a) incapacitated or b) too hurt to strike back, then I'd run. I mean, I would never support a type of school system where if someone hit you and you hit back and broke his nose, you wouldn't be held responsible, or have to shoulder as much responsibility as the person who started the fight. I'm glad people are being raised with an anti-war standard - sometimes being a pacifist is better than being an activist.