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Author Topic: The greenhouse effect :P  (Read 7532 times)

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tippz

Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2007, 08:26:39 pm »
Dude, don't talk if you don't have anything to back up your theory!
Hahahahaha funny how supporters of the theory say this and not those who believe it to be false...

anyway
I mean, maybe there hasn't been any changes there in Missouri, but I have seen huge changes here in Finland.
qualitative data means very little, but anyway... this is likely a change in the last couple years as I am sure that you haven't been paying attention to weather patterns your entire life, yeah? Well even the stupidest supporter of global warming would not try to say that massive changes in temperature over the last couple years is a result of global warming. The theory supports a gradual increase in temperature over centuries. You cannot look at weather from year to year and say that it is global warming this year because it is warmer than last year because next year could end up being colder than them both! Weather has and will continue to fluctuate greatly from year to year. For example, the weather phenomenon El Nino affects local temperature drastically. Global warming does not have the same drastic effect...

And, I would rather make changes, just in case, rather than taking the chance of believing you and that it's a hoax.
Not many people, if anyone, is saying that the whole theory be ignored and negative greenhouse gas emissions be reduced. But to drastically alter your lifestyle and to completely screw industrial economies just to cope with a potential problem, when you could be making subtle steps in the right direction that would help both sides is just stupid.

Why would someone make up such a thing? It wouldn't help anyone, in fact, it would make things worse.
As I said, the equations were flawed. No one made anything up. It was just a warmer period if the century, some scientists collected some data, made some projections and we came up with this modern global warming 'hoax'. Granted, the theory is solid but there just isn't a reason to believe that it could ever be as severe a climate change as the theory says.

Try disproving the fissions of ice fields.
They might be melting, but that isn't anything new. It is just in the past several hundred years that they started to freeze over again. On top of that, their melting could be a result of human activity, natural changes, or some combination of the two. It is, again, stupid to blame the melting of ice sheets on a single thing. What's more, the strongest evidence for global warming, the .6 degrees that the temperature has supposedly gone up over the past 100 years, hardly explains how ice sheets in regions that typically have freezing or near freezing temperatures year round are suddenly too warm...



Ok, Venus posted while I was typing so...
Even though it is a small change now, the changes might increase exponential which would mean an accelerated increase. And even a fraction of a degree per year can be a lot after some decades, if it only increases proportional (sp?).
The change is small now, just .6 degrees over the last 100 years. One of the worst estimates for the next 100 years is a whopping 1.3 degrees. So yeah...

You know who make it such a big thing? Companies who try to make money on people who want to do a good thing. Seriously, have you seen all the ads advertising a so-called environment-friendly product? They make is seem like it's the end of the world if you don't buy the product. If you want to be environment-friendly the thumb rule is that consuming less is better than consuming environment-friendly products. Because even those products harm nature even though they might harm less than other products. So only buying environment-friendly products is not a reason to consume more.
I agree with you here... one of the biggest problems I have with the whole fight on global warming...
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Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2007, 10:01:25 pm »
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Yes, some industries will be hit more than others. What about economies based around those industries? They will be destroyed.

Name me one economy - or hell, one INDUSTRY - that is so dependent on the burning of CO2 producing fuels that they cannot lower CO2 emissions and still remain viable.

Because honestly, I cannot think of a single one.

And even if there is one - so what? Industries, economies, they get screwed over for doing the wrong thing ALL THE TIME. Or, hell, even the right thing. And regardless of whether or not climate change is an imminent threat, pollution of any kind, including the production of greenhouse gases, is an externality which those responsible for need to pay up to.
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tippz

Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2007, 11:34:31 pm »
Yes, some industries will be hit more than others. What about economies based around those industries? They will be destroyed.

Name me one economy - or hell, one INDUSTRY - that is so dependent on the burning of CO2 producing fuels that they cannot lower CO2 emissions and still remain viable.

Because honestly, I cannot think of a single one.

And even if there is one - so what? Industries, economies, they get screwed over for doing the wrong thing ALL THE TIME. Or, hell, even the right thing. And regardless of whether or not climate change is an imminent threat, pollution of any kind, including the production of greenhouse gases, is an externality which those responsible for need to pay up to.

Well gee, the auto industry sure is taking a big hit due to all of the greenhouse gas regulations and 'emission free' vehicle requirements bing placed upon them. The power industry, similarly, burns things to generate power. Burning things creates greenhouse gases. Those two industries fuel my local economy. To place even more regulations and environmental regulations on them would pretty much cripple the area and create quite a bit of poverty.

So there are two, the former being pretty common and the second being everywhere... 

Also, the entire US Economy, being the home of three of the top 5 auto makers in the world would be affected pretty negatively. The higher cost associated with more money being spent on reducing emissions also has a negative impact on economy...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 11:37:34 pm by tippz »
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Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2007, 11:47:19 pm »
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To place even more regulations and environmental regulations on them would pretty much cripple the area and create quite a bit of poverty.
And need we elaborate on the statistics of what poverty will do to people's lifespans?

Quote
Also, the entire US Economy, being the home of three of the top 5 auto makers in the world would be affected pretty negatively. The higher cost associated with more money being spent on reducing emissions also has a negative impact on economy...
But it's not *just* about cars.  There are so *many* areas being affected.  But I think our biggest problem is that the U.S. environmentalist crowd (not to be mistaken with similar groups in other countries), wants us to find alternative energy sources, but won't let us use nuclear power.  It's quite ridiculous, you can't have it both ways.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 11:51:45 pm by 2awesome4apossum »
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tippz

Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2007, 12:19:45 am »
Quote
To place even more regulations and environmental regulations on them would pretty much cripple the area and create quite a bit of poverty.
And need we elaborate on the statistics of what poverty will do to people's lifespans?
exactly, and on their children's as well

Quote
Quote
Also, the entire US Economy, being the home of three of the top 5 auto makers in the world would be affected pretty negatively. The higher cost associated with more money being spent on reducing emissions also has a negative impact on economy...
But it's not *just* about cars.  There are so *many* areas being affected.  But I think our biggest problem is that the U.S. environmentalist crowd (not to be mistaken with similar groups in other countries), wants us to find alternative energy sources, but won't let us use nuclear power.  It's quite ridiculous, you can't have it both ways.

True, but being that almost all jobs in my area are directly or indirectly related to the big three it kind of hits closer to home...
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Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2007, 04:27:58 am »
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Dude, don't talk if you don't have anything to back up your theory!
I mean, maybe there hasn't been any changes there in Missouri, but I have seen huge changes here in Finland.
And, I would rather make changes, just in case, rather than taking the chance of believing you and that it's a hoax.
Why would someone make up such a thing? It wouldn't help anyone, in fact, it would make things worse.
Try disproving the fissions of ice fields.


Where's your evidence for the huge changes in Finland? I have plenty to back up my theory...and I wasn't talking about Missouri, I was talking about everywhere. I just mentioned Missouri because I live there, and it's a great example of the chaotic weather that happens EVERYWHERE. I mean people say there's been more earthquakes and floods and stuff lately...do we blame that on something? Oh noes! Global...terror! Run for the hills...no wait, that's where the earthquakes hit! Run for the boats...no, they'll get eaten up in floods...head to the skies! Wait...increased static electricity from the storms will knock down planes.

The truth is...there's data for everything, but none of it matters. It's called NATURE. It can't be predicted. It's been around a lot longer than we have, it's smarter than us. You can collect all the data you want...you can't figure out a pattern with nature. Sure, we're screwing with nature, but that doesn't make it any less chaotic than before. We're going to keep screwing with nature, no matter what we do...Lord knows the earth isn't nearly as stable as it was millions of years ago. And in a few more million years, if we haven't destroyed ourselves by war or the fear of...well...whatever the media decides to make us afraid of at that time, the explosion of the sun will reach us and wipe out the planet. We're doomed no matter what...might as well just get used to it...we can't stop what's bound to happen.
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Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2007, 12:14:23 pm »
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Where's your evidence for the huge changes in Finland?

I live there. >__>
I have plenty to back up my theory...and I wasn't talking about Missouri, I was talking about everywhere. I just mentioned Missouri because I live there, and it's a great example of the chaotic weather that happens EVERYWHERE. I mean people say there's been more earthquakes and floods and stuff lately...do we blame that on something? Oh noes! Global...terror! Run for the hills...no wait, that's where the earthquakes hit! Run for the boats...no, they'll get eaten up in floods...head to the skies! Wait...increased static electricity from the storms will knock down planes.

The truth is...there's data for everything, but none of it matters. It's called NATURE. It can't be predicted.
Actually, it can. We know when there will snow, rain, etc. Meteorologists predict the weather from certain things.
Same goes with this. IF we continue the same way we do now, things will get a lot worse and faster (because of .
In 100 years, earths global temperature can rise 4 celcius. 1 celcius growth of global temperature is a critical point, because it can melt the Greenland, which would stop the warm Golf-stream that warms the North, which means that Finland would turn into a place like Siberia.

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Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2007, 05:39:18 pm »
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Yes, some industries will be hit more than others. What about economies based around those industries? They will be destroyed.

Name me one economy - or hell, one INDUSTRY - that is so dependent on the burning of CO2 producing fuels that they cannot lower CO2 emissions and still remain viable.

Because honestly, I cannot think of a single one.

And even if there is one - so what? Industries, economies, they get screwed over for doing the wrong thing ALL THE TIME. Or, hell, even the right thing. And regardless of whether or not climate change is an imminent threat, pollution of any kind, including the production of greenhouse gases, is an externality which those responsible for need to pay up to.

Well gee, the auto industry sure is taking a big hit due to all of the greenhouse gas regulations and 'emission free' vehicle requirements bing placed upon them. The power industry, similarly, burns things to generate power. Burning things creates greenhouse gases. Those two industries fuel my local economy. To place even more regulations and environmental regulations on them would pretty much cripple the area and create quite a bit of poverty.

So there are two, the former being pretty common and the second being everywhere... 

Also, the entire US Economy, being the home of three of the top 5 auto makers in the world would be affected pretty negatively. The higher cost associated with more money being spent on reducing emissions also has a negative impact on economy...

You failed entirely just there. Seriously.

Just because CURRENTLY those industries rely on the inefficient use of combustion fuels - and therefore the production of CO2 - does not mean that they need to, as a nature of the business.

Cars? Get them to run on other stuff, or just decrease the amount of CO2 they produce. By providing financial incentives to people for using more efficient transport - lower car taxes to those who produce less CO2, for instance - then demand for efficient cars increases; car companies sell more cars, and make up for the losses incurred in the research and development of these new vehicles. As more people will be replacing their cars than before, then more cars will need to be made - employment in the factories goes up, unemployment locally falls, and a multiplier effect results; people who were previously unemployed now have jobs, are demanding goods and services, and create employment elsewhere.

Not to mention that spending more on research and development is good for the economy; high spending on R&D, especially in new areas, encourages companies to employ more people, so employment rises, leading to the aforementioned multiplier effect, and the obvious increase in GDP that results from higher employment, and especially since these are likely to be skilled workers, demand for higher education (in order to be qualified for these jobs) is likely to rise by a small amount, which, once more, leads to more employment, as people become teachers as they see the high demand for teachers qualified to teach these things.

EXACTLY the same thing goes for the power industry. Alternative sources of power exist in many forms, and although CEOs and big shareholders would hate to lower their own profits from spending more on R&D, doing so would benefit the whole economy.

Think about it, it's actually an opportunity to not only create some wealth redistribution (from those very richest, at the top of companies, down to the people working for them), but also to expand the entire economy, by forcing those stakeholders at the highest point in firms to lower their own personal utility by a small amount to benefit everyone else in society. Which, to be honest, they wouldn't do otherwise.
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tippz

Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2007, 10:13:23 pm »
Yes, some industries will be hit more than others. What about economies based around those industries? They will be destroyed.

Name me one economy - or hell, one INDUSTRY - that is so dependent on the burning of CO2 producing fuels that they cannot lower CO2 emissions and still remain viable.

Because honestly, I cannot think of a single one.

And even if there is one - so what? Industries, economies, they get screwed over for doing the wrong thing ALL THE TIME. Or, hell, even the right thing. And regardless of whether or not climate change is an imminent threat, pollution of any kind, including the production of greenhouse gases, is an externality which those responsible for need to pay up to.

Well gee, the auto industry sure is taking a big hit due to all of the greenhouse gas regulations and 'emission free' vehicle requirements bing placed upon them. The power industry, similarly, burns things to generate power. Burning things creates greenhouse gases. Those two industries fuel my local economy. To place even more regulations and environmental regulations on them would pretty much cripple the area and create quite a bit of poverty.

So there are two, the former being pretty common and the second being everywhere... 

Also, the entire US Economy, being the home of three of the top 5 auto makers in the world would be affected pretty negatively. The higher cost associated with more money being spent on reducing emissions also has a negative impact on economy...

You failed entirely just there. Seriously.

Just because CURRENTLY those industries rely on the inefficient use of combustion fuels - and therefore the production of CO2 - does not mean that they need to, as a nature of the business.

Cars? Get them to run on other stuff, or just decrease the amount of CO2 they produce. By providing financial incentives to people for using more efficient transport - lower car taxes to those who produce less CO2, for instance - then demand for efficient cars increases; car companies sell more cars, and make up for the losses incurred in the research and development of these new vehicles. As more people will be replacing their cars than before, then more cars will need to be made - employment in the factories goes up, unemployment locally falls, and a multiplier effect results; people who were previously unemployed now have jobs, are demanding goods and services, and create employment elsewhere.

Not to mention that spending more on research and development is good for the economy; high spending on R&D, especially in new areas, encourages companies to employ more people, so employment rises, leading to the aforementioned multiplier effect, and the obvious increase in GDP that results from higher employment, and especially since these are likely to be skilled workers, demand for higher education (in order to be qualified for these jobs) is likely to rise by a small amount, which, once more, leads to more employment, as people become teachers as they see the high demand for teachers qualified to teach these things.

EXACTLY the same thing goes for the power industry. Alternative sources of power exist in many forms, and although CEOs and big shareholders would hate to lower their own profits from spending more on R&D, doing so would benefit the whole economy.

Think about it, it's actually an opportunity to not only create some wealth redistribution (from those very richest, at the top of companies, down to the people working for them), but also to expand the entire economy, by forcing those stakeholders at the highest point in firms to lower their own personal utility by a small amount to benefit everyone else in society. Which, to be honest, they wouldn't do otherwise.

If it makes it SO easy to cash in on bigger profits then why not just do it? Oh perhaps because of the huge upfront costs and potential for huge failure? It is much, much, much (I would add more 'much'-es but I think you get the point) more cost effective to do gradually shift your industry and production over to so called 'green' alternatives, as the auto and power industries are. To just force them to completely switch would cripple them and without immediate returns on the investment large businesses would fail.

Again, I am not saying that this environmentally friendly movement shouldn't happen. It should, regardless of global warming. However, the current demand by the big global warming supporters aren't helping.
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Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2007, 10:43:28 pm »
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*gets rid of the pyramid*

If it makes it SO easy to cash in on bigger profits then why not just do it? Oh perhaps because of the huge upfront costs and potential for huge failure? It is much, much, much (I would add more 'much'-es but I think you get the point) more cost effective to do gradually shift your industry and production over to so called 'green' alternatives, as the auto and power industries are. To just force them to completely switch would cripple them and without immediate returns on the investment large businesses would fail.

Again, I am not saying that this environmentally friendly movement shouldn't happen. It should, regardless of global warming. However, the current demand by the big global warming supporters aren't helping.

Ahh, room to breathe. Onwards...

Yes, businesses are afraid of huge upfront costs. Boohoo. Doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do - especially, as I said, it's good for the whole economy, and with proper incentives provided by government, the risks to any individual businesses are actually really quite small. It does, of course, require governments to act properly on this manner, and in a co-ordinated way. I'm afraid the US government isn't REALLY helping in this regard.
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tippz

Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2007, 02:05:39 am »
*gets rid of the pyramid*

Quote
Again, I am not saying that this environmentally friendly movement shouldn't happen. It should, regardless of global warming. However, the current demand by the big global warming supporters aren't helping.

Ahh, room to breathe. Onwards...

Yes, businesses are afraid of huge upfront costs. Boohoo. Doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do - especially, as I said, it's good for the whole economy, and with proper incentives provided by government, the risks to any individual businesses are actually really quite small. It does, of course, require governments to act properly on this manner, and in a co-ordinated way. I'm afraid the US government isn't REALLY helping in this regard.
*thanks*

But why make them pay massive up front costs when there are other ways of doing it? Gradually making small investment could help just as much, if not more than these huge up front 'fix it all now' deals. Slowly refining engines to reduce emissions is a lot cheaper than a completely new redesign. Not to mention they is more left over cash to refine it in the future.

The US government shouldn't be a BIG help to businesses in this regard. Turns out a big portion of industrialized nations run some form of a free market economy (the US does) which means little to no government intervention. (On the flip side to that, GM and the US government are working together to develop hydrogen technology, which really is the end all be all of 'green' cars...)

Again I will stress, businesses SHOULD be making their business practices better for the environment. Absolutely no doubt about that. However, it is stupid for them to be expected to change everything so quickly.



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Re: The greenhouse effect :P
« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2007, 02:11:52 am »
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Again, I am not saying that this environmentally friendly movement shouldn't happen.
If global warming isn't real, then CO2 emissions aren't a concern.  Which is one of the reasons that there's such a big debate.

Okay, I'm done interjecting now.
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