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Author Topic: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (ie: Game Maker, RPG Maker)  (Read 2154 times)

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Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (ie: G...
« on: June 25, 2006, 08:07:26 am »
  • Minalien
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I know in the past I've been kind of harsh about using things like Game Maker, RPG Maker, etc, but here's an explanation of two things: 1) why I thought like I did, and 2) why I dont think that way anymore.

The reason I looked down on the simple game-design tools, such as Game Maker, RPG Toolkit, RPG Maker, Game Editor, etc. is because I always felt that I had to prove myself, and I tried to make myself look better by being harsher on games created with simple game design tools, when, in fact, these tools are legitimate, decent tools that, when put in the right hands, can be used to make really great games. I lost sight of actually having fun playing games, and started becomming biased towards games because of what they were made with, to the point where I almost completely refused to play any game that was made with a simpler development tool.

Recently, however, I've come to realize that I dont have to prove myself to anybody. I dont give two shits what people think of my opinions on anything else, why should I care shits what they think about me as a game designer? And I came to some realizations that I should've made a long time ago. Now, this doesnt mean I'm going to hold back when I think a game sucks, but I wont be as biased based on what the game was created with anymore. I've decided to start working more on game design for game design's sake recently, rather than going out and working on code & such. I figure I can wait to further my knowledge of C++ until after I take my MOS in California after I get out've boot camp...

ANYWAYS, if you're wondering why I put this in development talk, let me give people who feel as I did something to think about: Dont lose sight of what we do this for. We design games for fun, and many people find fun in their own ways. I personally find fun in challenging myself in one way or another, but I've also come to realize that my challenging myself isn't getting me anywhere, as I haven't completed much in terms of game design recently. Pay attention to games for the sake of them being games, not for what they would offer you in challenge. Games are games. They're there for entertainment, not to show who's better than who at what.

Now, there is still one thing I dislike, however: people requesting engines for every part of their game. I can understand how irritating it can get when you want a particular feature in your game that you cant figure out. But dont ask people for engines. Ask them for ideas on how it can be done. If another's released an example or an engine, make your own, and use what the other person made as a guide for how to create your own. Dont make an abomination of sewn-together parts from 1500 other sources, make your own code & systems, that way when something needs changed, or there's a bug found, you can easily just find where in your code it is, and you can personally understand all of the code in your game. Not just where it is, but what it does, where it is, why it does what it does, and all the nitty-gritty details like that.

Anyways, if you read the entire rant, feel free to comment. If you just skimmed, eh, I can understand. Whatever. MiNalien out.
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2006, 08:21:43 am »
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*claps*  I don't do much with game making anymore but I understand where you're coming from.  Not to mention that was a good read as well.
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Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2006, 08:31:09 am »
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Awesome rant min. I've been a drag and drop user ever since i started trying to make games. I don't judge them since the're easy to use, especially for people like me who know how or can't really learn to code. They take time to get good at and used too even though the're just drap and drop programs. It's good to see that you've learned not to judge games based solely on what the're made with anymore.
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pxl_moon (dotyue)

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Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2006, 09:39:15 am »
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well, i peronally rated the games ever after the content... but most fangames outside of zfgc are !@#$%... and some of the fangames have gotten already a prof. look what makes someday the standart quality of zfgc and some trys of community projects show that someday maybe thios community goes to one big project, well good post
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Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2006, 09:42:48 am »
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People are entitled to their opinions. 'nuff said.
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the a o d c
Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2006, 10:59:37 am »
  • Minalien
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well, i peronally rated the games ever after the content... but most fangames outside of zfgc are !@#$%... and some of the fangames have gotten already a prof. look what makes someday the standart quality of zfgc and some trys of community projects show that someday maybe thios community goes to one big project, well good post
Actually, I've seen some very good quality fan games outside of ZFGC. It's a lot of the ones INSIDE of ZFGC that seem to be somewhat crappy. A lot of these fan games lack what makes the Zelda series so popular, originality. Sure they cant be completely original, they're fan games, but they lack the creativity & originality that zelda games often have to maintain that popularity. A lot of what I see here is just slopped together to see if people will like the idea, then they try to get a fanbase off of that. And when that doesn't happen, they lose interest, and then the project is cancelled.
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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pxl_moon (dotyue)

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Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2006, 11:42:21 am »
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well, i peronally rated the games ever after the content... but most fangames outside of zfgc are !@#$%... and some of the fangames have gotten already a prof. look what makes someday the standart quality of zfgc and some trys of community projects show that someday maybe thios community goes to one big project, well good post
Actually, I've seen some very good quality fan games outside of ZFGC. It's a lot of the ones INSIDE of ZFGC that seem to be somewhat crappy. A lot of these fan games lack what makes the Zelda series so popular, originality. Sure they cant be completely original, they're fan games, but they lack the creativity & originality that zelda games often have to maintain that popularity. A lot of what I see here is just slopped together to see if people will like the idea, then they try to get a fanbase off of that. And when that doesn't happen, they lose interest, and then the project is cancelled.

that fangames are cancelled is a genral problem, i didnt cancel any, i just delay because i dont want to show of a crappy game.... paclink is a game that can be crappy, but i have to change it someday with an better engine
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Dayjo

shut the fuck up donny.
Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2006, 12:00:30 pm »
  • hungry..
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Well done Min :), it's good that you realised where you were being a bit critical or whatever. Like FISSURE said, awesome rant. :D
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Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2006, 12:11:58 pm »
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I'm glad you finally figured out its not the program you use its the game you make.
Good job ;).
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Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2006, 11:26:28 pm »
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Now, there is still one thing I dislike, however: people requesting engines for every part of their game. I can understand how irritating it can get when you want a particular feature in your game that you cant figure out. But dont ask people for engines. Ask them for ideas on how it can be done. If another's released an example or an engine, make your own, and use what the other person made as a guide for how to create your own. Dont make an abomination of sewn-together parts from 1500 other sources, make your own code & systems, that way when something needs changed, or there's a bug found, you can easily just find where in your code it is, and you can personally understand all of the code in your game. Not just where it is, but what it does, where it is, why it does what it does, and all the nitty-gritty details like that.

This really annoys me. People make so stupid mistakes... Sometimes I think that people have no pacience to stop to think "how am going to do it?" and then they just post a request in the programming section.
Some errors may take hours to be solved, but the ones that people post here make it seem that they hadn't even tried to solve them.
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aab

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Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2006, 07:24:42 pm »
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Now, there is still one thing I dislike, however: people requesting engines for every part of their game. I can understand how irritating it can get when you want a particular feature in your game that you cant figure out. But dont ask people for engines. Ask them for ideas on how it can be done. If another's released an example or an engine, make your own, and use what the other person made as a guide for how to create your own. Dont make an abomination of sewn-together parts from 1500 other sources, make your own code & systems, that way when something needs changed, or there's a bug found, you can easily just find where in your code it is, and you can personally understand all of the code in your game. Not just where it is, but what it does, where it is, why it does what it does, and all the nitty-gritty details like that.
Kindof hippocrytical under a straightforward interpretation, and the only way to avoid it being so is to design and build your own microprocessor and computer components to run your own machine language, and programming in that language or writing your own languages to compile to those instructions and writing your own GM int that language to then use to make games using your own graphics!
But you said that, (though not explicitly mentioned) in consideration of the silly implications brought about by people doing so..So...No problem.

Theres nothing wrong with assembling a frankenstein program out of different pieces; It can save time out of pathetic mortal existance, and esp. on the testing front, and gives you more reliability (well...not true with gm frankensteins). Just as long as you know how to use what you are using, and it suits the flexibility of the program.

Its people trying to make games when they haven't spent the time learning how to get to that stage; Thats the issue (of course).


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Recently, however, I've come to realize that I dont have to prove myself to anybody
Good for you; Learn A,B,C...C++...for you and no one else.

... The same goes for every single fangame maker ... doing it for yourself gets you halfway there withought worrying.

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.... I ♥ Sol ? wtf how long has that been there? >_> *rrrrrrrrar*
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Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2006, 09:17:32 pm »
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Yeah, I used to feel the need to prove something as well. Always had to make the most exciting project out of all my programming class, or teach myself to use tools and techniques that would get me there. I guess I still feel that way, not to show off what I can do, but to demonstrate that a solid, good-looking fan game can be done.

Unless you have plans to be an advanced or professional programmer, we're just working on the fan-game level, so what you produce is more meaningful than what you produce it with. I can't vouch for TGF, RPG Maker, etc., but Game Maker has the capabilities to let you forego most the built-in newbie features and essentially write your own gaming engines. That's why I really enjoy using it; it mainly just takes care of all the tedious I/O business that I could never grasp, and leaves you with the fun challenge of programming logic. I'd still like to master true languages, sure you would too, but there's no real need right now.

And your comment about mashing engines together - I agree, but maybe more for reasons to do with designing the game. If we could, I'll flesh that out in a later topic.
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Hikij

Re: Message about Easy Game Designer Programs (i...
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2006, 06:07:32 pm »
Fact: It takes longer to get an engine, than to make a decent one. Trust me, when I was a GM noob, I used to do that all the time. But, I started making engines from scratch, and my games started looking original.
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