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Author Topic: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization  (Read 5333 times)

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Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« on: March 05, 2007, 11:06:18 pm »
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People always complain when one engine won't work with another, so I propose that we create some sort of standard that specific engines can choose to follow to make them inter-operable.  I believe the way it would work is that way have different categories for the different usual functions.

such as;
Player Actions (Walking, Swimming, Firing a Bow etc.)
Hud (C Buttons, Hearts etc.)
Enemy AI (Octorok, Moblin etc.)

And so on and so forth...

Each of these would be able to operate in unity within their own group, and in some circumstances could also work with related groups.  (eg. Goodnight's Heart Engine would be able to deduct health when an enemy hits link without having to actually change anything)

It could even have its own Badge of Some Sort ;p
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Devy

Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2007, 11:14:05 pm »
thats a good idea windy ;)
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Obsequious Eye

King of Glass
Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2007, 05:02:50 am »
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So something like a ZFGC community engine? Or am I reading this wrong?
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  • Omniscient Eye
Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2007, 05:39:38 am »
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So something like a ZFGC community engine? Or am I reading this wrong?
Not a community engine, but rather getting people to create their engines and stuff in a way to which the separate engines can communicate with each other if joined together without requiring major editing to get them to cooperate with each other.

You could probably think of it similar to how all web browsers use the same methods of communication to access the internet and are all capable of displaying html pages in a similar manor, rather than having their own formats instead.
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2007, 05:59:02 am »
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Time consuming =(. There should really be an engine that includes every item and every move, instead of 99 "Walking engines". At least we'd have something. Different people and different engines wont ever be matched =(.
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the a o d c

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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2007, 09:32:09 am »
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I'd love for this to happen but I don't think it's possible. Too many different coding styles and experience levels.

Instead I would recommend that everyone making an engine fill in Game Information text with as many details as possible about how to install it, what can be edited, possible issues, etc.

And then just, try your best when making it to consider things that might interfere with other parts of the game. And avoid them as much as you can.
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pxl_moon (dotyue)

Team Dekunutz
Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2007, 10:42:18 am »
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maybe noone saw it but dlbrooks engine is with a few gfx modifications a wonderfull overall engine, even for noobs
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2007, 02:47:34 am »
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I'd love for this to happen but I don't think it's possible. Too many different coding styles and experience levels.
True, but those are issues that you'll encounter regardless, and is exactly why something like this should be done.  The more different styles that are around the more difficult it becomes to implement each others engines, its a problem that can only get worse and at some stage creating engines will become pointless, as the user will become frustrated with all the work he'll have to go though to make them work and will eventually opt out and create his own.

Such easily implementation methods have already been demonstrated in quite a couple of engines already, why do you think TRW's text engines has always remained popular despite the fact there are several others out there that have all these extra features?
Cross compatibility between different GM Versions, easy implementation, no need to change or modify anything, you just have use it.

Time consuming =(. There should really be an engine that includes every item and every move, instead of 99 "Walking engines". At least we'd have something. Different people and different engines wont ever be matched =(.
Because such things are complicated, and if it were a community project would require a great deal of management and people would fight over having their engines in it.  Doing it this way provides the user with a choice of which engines they'd want from a multiple of authors.  Everything is time consuming, the purpose of this is to encourage/force people to implement such methods, otherwise people will probably opt out over the easier option.

Instead I would recommend that everyone making an engine fill in Game Information text with as many details as possible about how to install it, what can be edited, possible issues, etc.

And then just, try your best when making it to consider things that might interfere with other parts of the game. And avoid them as much as you can.
Doing that will only work to a limited extent, as you said, there's too many coding styles and experience, installing/editing it will be different depending on the coding style being used as well as the level at which the coder whose created the engine will be able to document their own engine will differ depending on their experience.

Standardizing Implementation methods will inherently ensure that the user will not have to go to that extend as all engines will be installed in the same way and you can be assured that the documentation for the standard will provide enough information in the case for edits or otherwise.
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 12:35:11 pm »
  • Minalien
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I think that having standardization would be a great idea. Perhaps have some sort of badge or something people can post with their engine to show that it follows the standardization method. Perhaps a couple people should get together and work on a set of standards, and then publish it on ZFGC for all to use
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 01:04:51 pm »
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A badge huh? *Creates py one*



That just looks and sounds so wrong.



Anyway on a serious note, I'm afraid when using something like game maker the chances of getting anyone to follow a coding standard are about as likely as a chocolate kettle!

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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2007, 02:18:50 pm »
  • Txet Lanosrep
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It would be nice, but a ton of work.  A better thing would just be for one person with lots of experience to make one engine with most of the features.  It would be a good project for those of you that are great programmers with no creativity, :P
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Retro
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2007, 07:01:31 pm »
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Non standard is a lot better idea, who wants standard a game engine that leads to all standard games without any original functions to its engine.
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2007, 07:03:51 pm »
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Non standard is a lot better idea, who wants standard a game engine that leads to all standard games without any original functions to its engine.
Er... I don't think you quite understand the concept of programming standards - Search around on google for a while as I don't have time to explain :).
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2007, 10:55:51 pm »
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It would be better if people would just not mix various engines with each other.
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2007, 06:42:16 am »
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If they need to mix a lot off engine's they'd better not make a game at all.
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2007, 12:04:04 pm »
  • Minalien
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Unfortunately, however, beginners are going to continue with patchwork, so I suggest we stop mentioning that they shouldn't be making games, and start discussing how we can help them do it so that their works aren't total atrocities to nature.
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There's such a double standard about religion in the modern world. Catholics can gather, wear white robes, and say "In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti" and be considered normal.

But if my friends and I gather, wear black robes, and say  "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn", we're considered cultists.
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2007, 05:50:49 pm »
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Well, then in stead of giving them engine parts there are other ways to help them learn making games in gamemaker.
Giving full engine parts looks like it helps them, but in fact it makes thing worse. They will learn almost nothing if they get everything they need to create a standard engine.
So I suggest something different:

Create a topic with simple scripts (not full engines) in it, with large explenations about what they do, then let the beginners study those scripts and let them do the adjusting to what they want themselves.
Learning by adjusting examples and adding things to them is a good way to see how things work. The beginners learn more this way, then when they have full engine parts which they only have to put in one file to create a standard zelda engine.
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2007, 02:20:38 am »
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You do have to realize though, there are motivations to using such engines other than to learn from them.  Skill, and convenience, you have to begin to wonder how many times that the "wheel" (euphemism for whatever zelda engine you can think of that is commonly used but is always made from scratch) has been reinvented.

Why do you think things like the .Net framework and other standard library sets get created?
Because recreating a feature that is commonly used from scratch over and over again is a bloody waste of time that could be better used to further develop other areas of whatever project is being worked on.

So if people are already providing engines why don't they get used?
A) Too much pride, the whole "I don't like relying upon other people's work" (Which is probably a stupid reason if you use Game Maker)
B) Too hard to implement, the time spent analyzing someone else's engine so you are capable enough to make changes to get it to work with your project is probably around the same amount of time you'd spend creating your own, of course the difference is one will seem hacked on and the other one won't.  There's also the flip side that you'll have to make changes to your own engine to work with someone else's engine (which is even worse).

We have people complain that we can never finish any fan game we start, ever consider this might be part of the problem?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2007, 02:32:02 am by Windy »
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2007, 02:46:01 am »
  • In all seriousness who's serious?
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I prefer writing my own engines but i do get things when I know i can't do it myself in any decent amount of time I believe most professional companies work this way also. I mean they don't go and make an entire API or Artificial Intelligence routines they try take existing ones and make them better. id has always used OpenGL as it's main API but they do use DX for more compatibility for windows based computers. Also they usually take their already estabelished AI routines and make modifications to them. the Doom 3 Engine is just a suped up Q3 engine converted to all C++ instead of the strange C/C++ hybrid it was. All they really added was the support for Dynamic lighting, removed Binary space partitions (BSP) for their maps and used raw .map files, made a new Model format which is a vast improvement over the .md3 format although it does take up a lot of space, and look at what a strong engine it's become albeit it's a mother to mod if you don't know what the hell your doing but meh.
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Re: Zelda Game Maker Engine Standardization
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2007, 04:56:44 pm »
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Well, I'm going to bring this topic back up again.  I've been writing my own set of standards, I haven't got much done on it yet, but so far I'd consider it to be fairly flexible.  I've converted a few engines over already so they comply with what I've already written up till now (Goodnight's heart engine amongst others).  I wouldn't say it was really that difficult, mostly just shifting functions around and renaming variables so they're more unique.

I've almost finished the standard of huds, so far is pretty broad, meaning it tries not to defrenciate between certain things like different hud elements, so you could have multiple heart engines running and stuff like that.  The standard for enemies is also pretty broad as well and even allows for further manipulation with your own code without having do dig through any of the original creators code.

For example, you wanted to give an enemy soldier the ability to steal one of your currently equipped items when he attacks.  Now using the non-standard way would require you to create your own enemy soldier or find someone else's and dig through it to make these modifications.  Now with the standard way, part of the specification requires that the creator provide a standard set of interfaces to allow you to do this, so all you need to do is write a simple little script in order to achieve this, and that script will also be naturally applicable to all the other enemy type engines out there that follow the standard.
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