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[TheDarkJay]

TheDarkJay

Morality in Video Games

I'm not going to deny it, I find moral choices in video games fascinating. On the one hand, having options and therefore the illusion of control is very nice. On the other, for fucks sake video games, why is the choice always to be either Jesus, Satan or apathetic?

Our sense of "Morality" is just avoidance of the negative consequences of actions, a moral system in games needs to be designed to reflect that because games have no real consequences anyway, which is why games have to dangle some form of engineered carrot in front of players.

Star Wars: KoToR had simple carrots, dark side powers which hurt enemies and light side which healed and buffed allies. Being light side or dark side was basically a playing style choice. Dark side sometimes had an extra money carrot, but not always. Sometimes you got more from light side.

Mass Effect has two carrots: Being a !@#$% gives you renegade and lets you do more intimidation, being a paragon let's you be more charismatic. But the carrots are the same both ways, being renegade is just funnier to watch most of the time. I can't be the only player he basically did all the big paragon choices but at every other step of the way was a complete !@#$%, just so he could laugh at the bastardry.

Both these carrots give players "the weaknesses of amorality", being a grey made you inherently weaker which sucked.

Personally I'd like to see a game implement a morality system akin to that of the World of Darkness: One-way. Being cruel cost you morality, but when only your current morality was above the level of cruelty of that action. A common thief would not lose any more morality from stealing, but if they ever kill someone they'd take a plunge. Also it means the game can easily keep track of how to treat the player, you can't "puppy-poke" your way to becoming the Lord of the Sith.

Of course some kinds of carrots would be required. WoD implements "derangements", as your character goes more (a/im)moral they go insane(r). This means players have to balance the rewards of their "evil" actions with the rewards of such actions.

[Mamoruanime]

Mamoruanime

Re: Morality in Video Games

I don't really like setups where they say "What do you want to do?" "Kill them---- let them live" or something... I'd rather just let it come naturally. You either shoot them or you don't. in that sense, I love morality in games

[TheDarkJay]

TheDarkJay

Re: Morality in Video Games

An idea I had was your morality could actually eliminate decisions. You could try to do the good thing, it's roll against your morality and if you failed the roll you're character would "override" this and do the wrong thing. Likewise a high morality means your character may actually refuse to do horrific acts.

"Father: Please, help me against the bandits and save my children!"
"Bandit Leader: No, join me in slaughtering the children and I will pay you well!"
"Player: [Attempts to say] I will help you, poor sir!"
[Rolls against player's low morality score of 1. Player is an uncaring psychopath so odds are low. Roll fails.]
"Player: Actually I'll just kill all of you..."
"Father: Noooo!"
"Bandit leader: Oooh, this is getting interesting. Kill them both."

"Father: Please, help me against the bandits and save my children!"
"Bandit Leader: No, join me in slaughtering the children and I will pay you well!"
"Player: [Attempts to say] I value money more than lives, your children must die!"
[Rolls against player's high morality score of 8. Player is willing to kill but only in self-defence. Roll fails.]
"Player: I'm sorry, I can't let you hurt these children!"
"Father: Thank you!"
"Bandit leader: Fool. Kill him."

"Father: Please, help me against the bandits and save my children!"
"Bandit Leader: No, join me in slaughtering the children and I will pay you well!"
"Player: [Attempts to say] I value money more than lives, your children must die!"
[Player has a morality of 3, they are willing to kill and do horrific things for personal gain but not completely psychotic. No roll needed]
"Father: Noo!"
"Bandit leader: Smart man."

Perhaps the game would need some kind of "dark passanger"-esque element (yes, i've been reading Darkly Dreaming Dexter), like the beast in Vampire, to explain this but I think it'd be an interesting avenue to explore. Basically players can start off in darkness, or guide themselves into a slide into the abyss, but can't plunge with ease and redemption is likewise difficult.
Obviously one could devise all sorts of morally grey situations. In fact, the WoD system more measures your adherence to the norms of your "ethics system" than your senses of good and evil. Hell, there are some systems that clash entirely with our societies.

Another example may be are you willing to kill a criminal, or try and imprison him. If you imprison him, you save your "morality" but risk him escaping or not being convicted, and living on to cause more pain (think The Joker).

If you kill them, it ends then and there. The "Batman" dilemma, as it were. You may want to kill the !@#$%, but your character's ethics (perhaps a better term?) determines they don't kill except in self-defence. You decide to kill them, the roll succeeds, and your character loses the "thou shalt not kill" morality point. And, as Batman feared, suddenly killing becomes easier. You don't need to roll for cold-blooded murder any more. You did the right thing, but it cost you a part of what kept you human.

[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: Morality in Video Games

Didn't Fable and Black & White try to do this already.

An idea I had was your morality could actually eliminate decisions. You could try to do the good thing, it's roll against your morality and if you failed the roll you're character would "override" this and do the wrong thing. Likewise a high morality means your character may actually refuse to do horrific acts.

There is just one flaw with your idea. If the computer continuously (or most of the time) overrides the input of the player, people will stop playing your game. No one would buy this. A game that kind of is playing itself and ignores the player is a bad game. The character of a game is you, is the player. How would you be able to turn your morality around if the character won't allow the player to do the moral or immoral thing. You could just as well watch a movie.

The idea you have is nice, but I would never play a game that requests my input and then fully ignores it.

[TheDarkJay]

TheDarkJay

Re: Morality in Video Games

Like I said, you roll against morality. You have a solid chance of still doing the good/bad action, and for actions close to your morality it's a very high chance, but it isn't a guarantee. I mean, you tolerate speech checks? It basically makes your morality like your speech skill for some options =)

[Zaeranos]

Zaeranos

Re: Morality in Video Games

Like I said, you roll against morality. You have a solid chance of still doing the good/bad action, and for actions close to your morality it's a very high chance, but it isn't a guarantee. I mean, you tolerate speech checks? It basically makes your morality like your speech skill for some options =)

If you mean that when you have a dialogue and you get some options of which to choose from. The choice you make determines the further progression of the dialogue. That is not really the same. The user is asked to make a choice and the game will honor the choice. Even in certain occasions with Zelda, where you have a dialogue, where you are given a choice but you can only progress in one choice. Even when you choose the other choice, the game acts accordingly, by saying that he did not expect the choice you made and asks you to reconsider. Even then the user input is honored and acted to.

The thing you said looks actually more like a turnbased RPG battle (such as Pokemon) where you attack and it results in a miss. People can get really pissed about those things especially when they happen in crucial battles. But the game still honors the players input. It says it attacked, but due to the speed of the opponent the attack was futile. In your case the player plays a character and when the player is asked to make a choice or do an action it still depends on whether the random number generator of your PC is in your favor. And the computer can still say !@#$% it I don't do what the player says.