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Author Topic: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT  (Read 15028 times)

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Starforsaken101

Wake the Beast
Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« on: November 01, 2012, 06:44:21 pm »
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This thread is to discuss the plot for the second part of the story. Please elaborate here.

I know this doesn't sound like much but alas, Max and Niek know more than I do :P.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2012, 07:00:20 pm »
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Okay, first off. I think there should be a red haring that ties the problems with the various races together. And it would also make it more ominous that something bad is creeping over the land. So I suggest that through Link's travels there are two characters that guide Link through the main story.

The first character is a bad guy/woman. At first he is friendly with Link, but as the story progresses he becomes more antagonizing. He is also responsible for releasing Ganondorf, making some of the problems happen and others allready were happening, but he makes them worse. This guy is pure evil and just want to see the world burn.

The second character is a good guy/woman. At first he is antagonizing towards Link, as he is under orders from Princess Zelda to stop Link from getting the cogs. However over time He recognizes Link for who he is and what his heritage is. He will go against orders and even help Link get to the final cog. He also aids Link in helping the races.

I think both should be Sheikah as it will allow them to be mystics and know about the Triforce and Ganon. The bad guy was exiled because of his vile tendencies.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2012, 07:55:34 pm »
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Thanks, Ash!

Ahh, Niek, you ninja'd me! I'm about to post 3 posts, the first 2 with my ideas, and a third with my comments on yours.

Alright, well, before we ported the wiki, Niek and I were discussing some story problems. I think we should try to pick up where we left off, as well as flesh out the problems each race has.

So for one thing, our story doesn't have an antagonist. Ganon is the bad guy, but since he's working with Link for most of the story, that makes him a protagonist then. So therefore, we need SOMEONE to try and stop Link.

We've got plenty of options. I'll make two posts, one with an option I like.

 One I am advocating for is that since Link is working for the forces of evil, somebody working for the forces of good would try to stop him. Basically, once Ganon reveals his true colors, we'll have an antagonist, in both Ganon and Sykes, who Ganon hires. So we only need an antagonist until that point.

The potential problem with a "good guy" antagonist is that a truly good guy would help the zoras and gorons and deku solve their problems, but Link does that. Meaning although the good guy and Link opposed each other, they'd have to work together? Confusing. So here's my solution:

The Shiekah are wise. They get word that someone in Hyrule town is planning on collecting the ancient cogs to the Celestial Clock. Their knowledge of history informs them that whoever collects the cogs can gain access to the master sword, the final lock holding the triforce out of the reach of men. They'd endeavor to stop this from happening, as it could be catastrophic.

The Shiekah have been removed from the rest of Hyrule for a long time, and in a way like the Hylian aristocracy, they look down on those different from themselves. The Shiekah elders decide that the cogs would be safer if they were all in the care of the Shiekah, rather than be scattered and protected by races that can't even solve their own problems. The elders send a skilled warrior to collect the cogs before Link can, to prevent the triforce from being unlocked and stolen.

This warrior is called Ash, after his colorless hair (and after an awesome manager :p ). He wants to keep the triforce safe, for the greater good, but due to the Shiekah's elitist attitude, and his concentration on his mission, he fails to look out for the interests of the people who protect the cogs. In this way, he is a bad guy, he doesn't care about the Goron's plague or the Zora's kidnapped royalty, he just cares about getting the cogs before Link does.

Link and Ash are in a race to get the cogs, each believing that he is working for the greater good. While in the Deku forest, Link hears about a darkly-dressed outsider trying to find a way into the Deku temple. The Deku refused to assist him, and in revenge, the outsider destroyed the gates to the Deku palace, allowing the insurgents to enter the palace and creating chaos. Link, because of his compassion in contrast to the outsider's cruelty, is assisted by both parties, and can get into the temple.

While rescuing the Zora royalty, Link hears that a similarly dressed outsider assisted the fairly stupid Zola in capturing the royalty. After they were captured, the outsider demanded to know the location of the cog. Only the king knew, so he went with the outsider to the island where the entrance to the water temple was hidden. When Link goes to rescue the last hostage, the king, he finds Maple on the way. Link is surprised that Maple captured the Zora royalty, but she explains that she didn't, it must have been someone else, although she is looking for the cogs. She can't find the one around here, so she fights Link for some of his items and then leaves (this is to explain that there are 3 people looking for the cogs). Link goes to the water temple and find Ash there with the Zora king, and Ash explains that he is here to collect the cogs before Link can, and attacks. Link defeats Ash, who escapes. The Zora king gives Link the flippers in gratitude, and Link can then access the water temple.

Link encounters Ash again at the end of the Earth temple. After defeating the boss, Link finds that Ash has gotten there before him, and Ash takes the cog. Link pursues him, and they both bump into Maple, who also wants the cog. She helps Link defeat Ash, who flees, but then lets Link have the cog. She says that she's learned something from watching Link help out the people he meets along the way. People don't look up to Link because he has cogs, it's because he's nice. Maple decides to return to Syrup and ask to become her apprentice once again.

After Link invades the Shiekah temple and collects that cog, he returns to Ganon's room in the palace, but is followed by Ash and other Shiekah reinforcements. Ganon helps Link defeat them, but after their defeat, the Shiekah elders arrive with more warriors as well as Zelda, who reveals the truth of Ganon's plot.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2012, 08:08:15 pm »
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Here's another idea I like, rather than somebody powerful, Maple is the antagonist. But more in just an mischievous, almost accidental way.

Link meets her before the first dungeon, and she explains her story, that she wasn't good enough to be Syrup's apprentice, so she's looking for the cogs to prove herself and boost her magic powers. She invades the Deku palace and magically brainwashes one of the guards into letting the Deku insurgents in, who attack the current king and cause chaos. This doesn't actually help her, though, and Link helps calm the confusion and because he cares about the Deku's problems, he helps them settle things, and they let him into the temple.

In the Zora river basin, Maple helps the Zola kidnap the Zora Royalty, who she questions about the locations of the cogs. They tell her they don't know, so she leaves. After rescuing the king, however, the he reveals that he did know, and lets Link in.

In the Goron area, Maple promises the Gorons a potion that will cure their tooth-rotting disease if they give her the cog. They let her into the dungeon, but at the end, Link fights Maple and he gets the cog. However, she then realizes that Link has been helping out all these people instead of hurting them, and has gotten recognition and respect this way, while she's just failed her mission. She decides to make a potion to cure the Gorons anyway, and Link goes off to the Valley of Death.

In the Valley of Death, there's kind of enough innate conflict between the Gerudo and Shiekah that we don't need anyone to initiate it, particularly because if we chose a Shiekah to be the antagonist, that wouldn't make sense, there's shiekah there already instigating the conflict, and if we went with Maple, she kind of isn't powerful enough to influence the Shiekah, they're too powerful themselves.
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Starforsaken101

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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 08:11:08 pm »
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Alright, my comments so far:

-Ermagerd you named a character Ash :D and he sounds awesome
-I like the Maple being an accidental antagonist idea...it's really interesting.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 08:22:58 pm »
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Okay, first off. I think there should be a red haring that ties the problems with the various races together. And it would also make it more ominous that something bad is creeping over the land. So I suggest that through Link's travels there are two characters that guide Link through the main story.

The first character is a bad guy/woman. At first he is friendly with Link, but as the story progresses he becomes more antagonizing. He is also responsible for releasing Ganondorf, making some of the problems happen and others allready were happening, but he makes them worse. This guy is pure evil and just want to see the world burn.

The second character is a good guy/woman. At first he is antagonizing towards Link, as he is under orders from Princess Zelda to stop Link from getting the cogs. However over time He recognizes Link for who he is and what his heritage is. He will go against orders and even help Link get to the final cog. He also aids Link in helping the races.

I think both should be Sheikah as it will allow them to be mystics and know about the Triforce and Ganon. The bad guy was exiled because of his vile tendencies.

I agree about the red herring thing, I was thinking the same thing, which is why I made it seem like Maple was responsible in one of my ideas, when in reality, she was good.

BUT, as for your characters, I don't like either. My problems are this:

Evil Dude - His motivation is... he's pure evil? We have a plot at all, which means that motivation isn't believable. Also, if he releases Ganon, then why does he oppose Link, who is working for Ganon. If he wants to see the world burn, Ganon obtaining the triforce will give him that. So he should help Link.

Good Dude - First, Zelda is initially naive and believes Ganon's story about wanting to help Hyrule, so she wouldn't send a Shiekah warrior to stop Link. How does she even know that Link is on this mission? Secondly, when the good dude recognizes Link's heritage, she helps him? What? Link is working for Ganon, and Ganon is evil, therefore Link is helping do evil. Even if Link is chosen by the triforce, he isn't chosen to help do evil. Link is misguided, so a truly good character wouldn't help Link do his evil quest, he would show Link the truth, that Ganon is evil.


So anyway, I thought of a third option, when you mentioned princess Zelda's orders. Perhaps we could amend the part about Zelda being naive about Ganon's evil, but we could say this:

Zelda had recurring nightmares about the Gerudo King's intentions. She started spying on him in order to confirm her suspicions, and she saw him instruct Link to travel and collect the cogs. Upon telling the older members of the Royal Family this, they didn't believe her. Deciding to take matters into her own hands, Zelda disguised herself as Shiek and set out to stop Link herself.


Oh, and Ash, what? Ermagerd you named a character Ash? Haha, talk in real words, crazy lady! We can develop the Maple idea more too.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2012, 04:55:18 pm »
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Sorry it took some time. My early post was short. I am not as fast a typer as any of you, so I wanted to get my main idea out. In this post I present the story that I was thinking of, but I did altered it a lot with your comments Max. First I will give some comments on your posts and then provide my idea. Happy readings  :P



Comments:
First off, I like the idea of Maple being accidentally involved with some of the problems. However in your second idea she comes of as really mean and even vile. I think she should be more sneaky and clumsy in the manner.Being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

In your first idea, the Sheikah come of as really mean and even evil. The Sheikah have always been portrayed as the servants of the Royal Family, with great mystical prowess, wisedom and cunning. They are strategists who are at the disposal of the Royal Family. Gathering all four the cogs from their vaults with strong mechanical and mystical protection is a fools strategy. You need all four the cogs to open the sacred realm and bringing them together and releaving them of the existing protection and bringing then all in one place kinda increases the chances that someone evil will succeed in gathering them. Secondly it gives the impression that the Sheikah are preparing a coup on the Royal Family themselves.

The biggest problem is that it makes it seem that the so called plot twist of Ganon's reveal is already known by the player once Link sets out for the first time.

I do find your idea of nightmare visions by Zelda great, although that she goes herself might not be such a good idea as you would get a nanny chase again and her parents would use all the resources to search for her instead of keeping an eye on the Gerudo King she starts to suspect. Unlike OOT Hyrule is not overrun by Ganon yet, that she needs to hide from.



Some back story:
What I advocate is that there is a bad guy. His name doesn't matter at the moment, but you could call him Ash if you want to (if this manager of ours doesn't mind being someone who wants to see the world burn >:) ). He/she is a sociopath and because they rellish in the missery of others not much motivation is needed. He is also capable of magic (how that can be, maybe because he is of a mystical race or had the training). In the past he performed a ritual to release the demon beast Ganon, but instead he got the man Ganondorf stripped of all the Triforce's power. Ganondorf wants the Triforce once more and the bad guy wants to see the misery caused by the Demon beast. But the bad guy tells him that the cogs that seal the Sacred Realm are hidden and spread over Hyrule.

Together they hatch a plan where Ganondorf goes to the Hyrule Castle to obtain more information about the cogs and the Celestial Clocktower. While the bad guy goes through Hyrule to find the cogs through the leaders of the other races. In a forgotten part of Hyrule Castle library Ganondorf finds out that the last mystical defence against the cogs is that the vaults deep inside the temples can only be accessed by the Hero who is marked by the Goddesses in case a great evil would rise again. That is why Ganondorf recruites Link.

Link will meet the Bad Guy throughout the game. He starts of somewhat nice to Link, but as Link stops many of his plans to cause missery he becomes more and more antagonizing to the result that he even attacks Link once he gets all the cogs.



Second act stuff:

The first time Link meets the bad guy is in the Deku swamp where he talks about how amusing the troubles of those Deku are. He closes by mentioning if the Deku King wants to sell their precious treasure already. In the Deku's Village Link learns about the problems of the Deku and how their King is doing nothing about it and only in his castle recieving no one. A magical stranger seems to be responsible for some of them and in one the problems Link meets Maple. Once Link solved all the main quest problems he learns that a mob of Deku has gone to the palace to dispose the king. Link goes there to create peace. He learns from the Deku King that a magical stranger wanted to buy there most precious treasure, but as soon as he found out what that treasure was he became very angry and stormed out, leaving the gate and guards in shambles. The Deku King also thinks the stranger went into Kokiri Forest as the stranger ranted about wanting the cog.

As Link continues into Kokiri Forest he sees the Deku guard post at the border also destroyed. In Kokiri Forest Link is teased by the Spirits of the Kokiri. Near the entrance to the Forest Temple Link sees Maple being plagued by the Kokiri. She is shooting spells at them and of them hits Link. Because the spells are targeted at spirits it only knocks Link of his feet or just singes him. Startled by what she has done she flies away shouting that she will get them and the cog another day. In the Forest Temple Link is confronted by Tilo who tries stop Link from progressing. Once Link obtains the cog in the Forest Temple he is spoken to by a distant voice. The voice is from the lingering spirit of the guardian (Deku Tree?).


With the Zora it is a good idea to do a kidnapping, however kidnapping the entire royal family including the king is perhaps a bit too far to escalate this early in the game. Not to mention that it would leave the Zora without a commander in chief in their civil war against the Zola. My suggestion is that the Bad guy helps the Zola to kidnap the son and daughter of the Zora King. He uses them to ransom the Cog from the Zora King. Link helps to rescue the children from the Zola. Link has to sneak into the Zola stronghold somewhere in River Valley to go to where the kids are locked. When confronted with the Bad Guy he gets some unexpected help from the Sheikah. The Sheikah have learnt that the Forest Cog was stolen and because the Bad Guy now openly tries to get to the cog the Sheikah focus is on him, missing the fact that Link is the one that got the Cog. Once Link reunites the son and daughter with their parents, the King mentions that even though he wanted to give the Bad guy the cog, he still could not do it because the cog is stored savely out of reach of everyone in the Lake Hylia Temple.

Now that the kidnapping is resolved the Zora blockade to Lake Hylia is also lifted and Link can now go there. At Lake Hylia he meets an old explorer Sheldon. He tells Link about the ancient machinery that allow the temple entrance to sink and rise. As Link goes to one of the Machines to make the entrance rise, he sees Maple trying to operate it as well with her magic. Unfortunately she is unsuccesfull and ends up breaking the machine. She yells at Link teling it is his fault that he made her break her concentration and flies off. Link returns to Sheldon. Sheldon fishes some of the required ore from the Lake and forges spare parts, which he then uses to fix the damage to the machine. Sheldon activates the machine and the temple entrance rises. Maple then swoops in to quickly enter the Temple, but is blocked by a magical barrier. She blasts it with some magic but fails. Angry she blaims Link again for her failing and tells him that she will find a spell to undo the magical barrier before flying off. Sheldon tells Link that the barrier is made to keep the selfish people out. Only those with a selfless heart may enter. Thus Link can enter. Once Link gets the cog he is spoken to by the spirit of the guardian (Jabu Jabu?)


With the Gorons the Bad Guy escalates again. What started out as a tooth-decaying disease the Bad Guy turned into a plague infecting the entire body of the Gorons. The Bad Guy offered a potion that would cure the disease if they gave him the cog. However the Gorons are unresponsive to blackmail, so he took the oldest of the goron elders to the entrance of the Earth Temple to force the elder to open the Temple for him. Link who has been helping with other problems has been granted permission by the other elders to take the  mine cart tracks to the Earth Temple. At the entrance Link is confronted by the Bad Guy and again a group of Sheikah come to Link's aid and scare of the Bad Guy. Link can now enter the Temple because he had the permission of the elders to come down there and the magical barrier recognizes it.

Link confronts Maple on Goron Mountain and tells her about the disease. Maple says in her arogance that it is easily solved with a basic potion. But she confesses to Link that she is very bad at making potions. That is why she wants the Cogs. It is said that the cogs give special potion making skills. Link tells Maple that she can keep a cog if she succeeds in making a cure for the Gorons. She replies that if she doesn't get a cog there won't be a cure. So Link gives Maple an old left-over gear he got from Sheldon when he repaired the machine, claiming it is one of the cogs that he got in a dungeon. After Link finishes the dungeon Maple brings a caldren of potion with the cure for the disease. She immediately flies off without a word. When Link leaves Carbon Mines Maple confronts Link again. She is mad that Link tricked her with that fake cog, however she doesn't mind because it gave her confidence in making potions. She returns to Syrup again.


In the mean time Zelda has been having visions and nightmares about the Gerudo King and Link collecting the Cogs. As the King and the Sheikah elders are already chasing the Bad Guy they would not listen to her. Zelda sends her most trusted servent Impa to track down Link. When Impa confronts Link on his way the Valley of Death. She first wants to disable Link and take him back to Hyrule Castle. However as soon as she recognizes the mark on Link's hand she suspects that the danger may be more dire than previously imagined. She tells Link the full story of the Triforce including the part that the Gerudo King left out. Impa decides to help Link obtain the last Cog, because with the cogs powers Link may be strong enough to confront whatever evil Hyrule is facing.

Impa helps out with Link getting in good graces with the Sheikah and she even obtains the information that the fire and ice arrows needed to enter the temple have been stolen by the Gerudo and are now in the hands of Abigail. Link as a poor Hylian boy has a better chance of success to retrieve the arrows than any Sheikah has, so Impa arranges Link's access to the Gerudo Desert. In the Gerudo Desert Link confronts Abigail and her band of Gerudo's and retrieves the arrows. Link returns to the Valley of Death and uses the arrows to enter the Sheikah Temple. After Link finishes the Temple and exits, he is attacked by the Bad Guy. The Bad Guy had waited for Link to complete collecting the cogs and now he will take them from him by force. But he is stopped by Impa. The bad guy and Impa fight for a little while, before they are joined by other Sheikah. The Bad GUy snarks that he has no time for this and runs of. Impa tells a little lie that the Bad Guy has all the Cogs and the other Sheikah follow the Bad Guy. Impa then turns to Link saying that she hopes that Link knows what he is doing and the potential danger he might unleash.



Third act fallout:
In the third act Link returns to the Gerudo King with the cogs, where it is reveiled that the Gerudo King is Ganon. The Bad Guy could make his appearance here as well. He may keep the guards busy, while Ganon takes the cogs from Link. After which they both escape to the Celestial Clocktower. Link would confront the Bad Guy once more inside the Celestial Clocktower before Link confronts Sykes for a final battle. Now armed with the experience of his trials and the Master Sword Link has the strenght to defeat him. Although they don't fight until the Bad Guy has ranted about how he wants to unleash the Demon beast to cause chaos and how his first attempt failed and only got the man Ganondorf. All as a stalling tactic.

Max before you had the idea of making Sykes a redeemable character. Well first I thought it would not work if he was the only antagonist besides Ganon and he should have to keep up Link's exile status from the gang. I think now with another antagonist it should be possible.

My idea is that Farin when he first encountered Link he also saw his mark on his hand and knew the meaning of it. However he thought Link was to young and in a too unfortunate position to stand a chance against Ganon. So Farin took Link in and started training him. He also gathered other gangmembers to provide a happy family for Link. But unconciously Farin always favored Link. Sykes sensed this and it fueled his jealousy. Thus when the Gerudo King Later approached Sykes as well he was thrilled. Sykes decided to help the Gerudo King because he also wanted to bring peace, he also wanted to free Farin and above all he also wanted to be reunited with his parents.

When Link and Sykes fight they fight for real, but when Link defeats Sykes Farin steps in and tells Sykes that he is working for an evil man that does not want peace and happiness, but seeks to rule everything with fear and pain. That is when Sykes realizes his mistake and shows remorse. He even apologizes to Link for being such a jerk.
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Starforsaken101

Wake the Beast
Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2012, 05:17:25 pm »
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I know this is short and sweet but I give you guys full permission to portray my name in an evil, watch the world burn, kind of way :P
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2012, 06:47:08 pm »
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Haha, alright, but I still don't think an evil-watch-the-world-burn character would fit in this world, especially since we have Ganon, who would be overshadowed by such a character, I think.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2012, 07:58:31 pm »
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That is just it. Ganon's evil is not really present here. He only becomes evil at the end and for the rest (over 90% of the story)  he has to pretend to be good. And then when the Ganon obtains his full power and evil he is once more defeated and locked up.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2012, 01:50:32 pm »
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That's true, I think maybe our problems are that the problems each of the races have aren't, right now, caused by Ganon. Ganon hasn't really done anything bad except overthrow Farin and want the cogs. Maybe we could make Ganon responsible for the problems, and as Link goes through, he slowly sees more and more evidence that Ganon is behind it all:

Before Ganon came to Hyrule Town as a "diplomat", he went to get the cogs himself. He went to the Deku and tried to get their cog fom the king, who refused. Ganon then set in motion a revolution, setting up a puppet king. However, the new king wasn't respected by the Deku people, as he didn't have the Forest Spirit's blessing, a custom Ganon had overlooked when he set up the puppet king. Chaos ensued in the Deku kingdom, as some Deku wanted to follow the king, others refused, and the Deku split into factions. The unstable political climate deadlocked Ganon's attempts to get the cog, as the puppet king was more concerned about staying in power, or even alive, than with getting Ganon the cog.

Ganon also went to the Zora royalty to get their cog, either before he met with Link or perhaps even while Link is in the Deku forest. However, their refusal prompted Ganon to try the same tactic as with the Deku. He incited a war between the Zora and their natural enemies, the Zola, providing the Zola with weapons, enabling them to capture the Zora family. Ganon hoped the Zola would take over the Zora kingdom and then turn the water cog over to Ganon, but the Zora warriors were too strong to fall so easily. Ganon realized that force on his part couldn't gain him the cog, and therefore decides to send Link in the end the conflict he created, and then more passively try to obtain the cog.

The Gorons' tooth-rot disease could also be tied to Ganon. Realizing that demanding the cog directly from the rulers of the tribes wouldn't work, he found out where the cog was hidden, and attempted to sneak into the earth temple himself. However, without assistance from the Goron people (some item the Elder keeps is needed to unlock a door), Ganon could only go so deep into the mines. Attempting to break through the barrier only passable with the Goron elder's seal, he disturbed a creature deep within the earth, who attacked Ganon. Ganon defeated it and sealed it inside the mines, but during the battle, the monster's poison infected the Goron water supply. With this new problem, the elder was certainly not in a position where he was willing to give his seal to somebody.

Pinning the conflict in the Desert on Ganon is easy. Although tensions have been high between the Gerudo and Shiekah for decades, they've been in a cease fire for the past hundred years, on the agreement that neither tribe crosses the others' borders. The Gerudo stay in the desert and out of Hyrule, and leave the Shiekah fields and oasis alone, and the Shiekah stay in Hyrule, and leave the Gerudo's water supply alone. When Ganon came to power, he ordered the Gerudo to invade the Shiekah territory to get their water supply, as the Gerudo have never had enough water. This reignited open conflict between the two tribes. It continues even as Ganon has gone to Hyrule Town. The Gerudo have managed to trap the Shiekah in their valley, preventing them from going to Hyrule to help.


Anyway, I like the Deku one, the Zora one is alright, the other two need work and have some holes.
I'm still in favor of casting Maple as a red-herring bad guy, where you think she's responsible for the Deku confusion, and think she's responsible for the Zora and Goron conflicts, but then learn she's just a little careless and thoughtless, and that the conflicts were started by somone else, who you eventually learn is Ganon. I think it has promise.

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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2012, 07:06:42 pm »
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I think that having a bad guy run around is too close LttP and TP.  I also feel that with Niek's ideas, there's no reason for Link to go into the temples other than to get the cogs.  The races and Shiekah would realize this and begin to question why he's entering the temple, especially when other cogs have gone missing.

I really do like the idea of Maple as an apparent bad guy, when it's actually Ganon doing things before hand.

Perhaps you and Niek can mash your Goron and Shiekah ideas together somehow?  You both have good ideas and would probably work well at a compromise.

 
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2012, 12:42:32 am »
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Yeah, I think we're all leaning toward Maple right now.

About the Gorons, yeah, we should work something together. One thing I really like, though, is the idea of revealing Maple as not the true enemy, and having her realize her bad attitude, right after the Goron temple. This way, her conflict can be resolved, and SHE can make a potion to solve the Goron's problem, because honestly, how would Link solve that? The only problem with this is that then Link is kinda like, okay, so who IS the bad guy, and this would be fine, because Link should start to question things at this point, and then be questioning things when talking to the Gerudo and Shiekah, but we have to figure out how to show that Link is questioning things.

One way to show Link's questioning is if he works with Zelda, and she's just as clueless as he is. Then she could start voicing concerns about Ganon after the Gorons, showing that Link is having concerns too. Then after the Shiekah, she would say, okay, now I have proof he's evil.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2012, 09:50:38 pm »
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Like I said, I think Maple is a good accidental villain in the way of being at the wrong place and wrong time and being clumsy. But as you put it as the main villain I think it is a bit to vile. When I made her up I also was thinking and mentioned about her being in conflict with the gangs. So she also shows up in Castle Town between the dungeons when the story gets back to there again. The conflict between her and gang members, could help mending wounds between Link and the gang. If Maple has to be this evil character to far in the game those moments will be awkward and make Maple less redeeming afterwards.

I just had an idea for some villains: The Four Horsemen of the Ganondorf  :P Yeah, I know it sounds silly. But considering that with the Gorons there is a plague (pestilence), the zora are in conflict with the zola (war) and with all the spirits and undead in the Sheikah temple (death), we kinda got 3 out of four already. We would miss out on Famine, but the Deku background does not support that yet. Although poisoned or diminished food supply might be one of the problems and the King is hogging it all. Although I would think that "stryfe" would fit better with the Deku.

We could also make it that the bosses in each temple are the demon forms of these horsemen. With the Deku he could create chaos and unrest, so that the Kokiri spirits would not be able to ask them for help when the temple would get invaded. So when Link enters Kokiri Forest a Kokiri Spirit would ask him for help to get the intruder out. With the Zora the horsemen could have use the Zola to stage a war to kidnap the royal children to undo a magical seal. He also takes the children with him in case of more seals. With the Goron the third horseman could have poisoned the land, which send a plague to the gorons. Weakend the Gorons so that also a Goron elder could be abducted to get entrance to the Temple. With the Sheikah the fourth horseman had been sealed in there already ages ago, but the Gerudo had a vendetta against the beast. And thus they stole the arrows that are rumored to be able to unlock the seal.

One way to show Link's questioning is if he works with Zelda, and she's just as clueless as he is. Then she could start voicing concerns about Ganon after the Gorons, showing that Link is having concerns too. Then after the Shiekah, she would say, okay, now I have proof he's evil.
The problem I see with this is that Zelda is part of the Royal Family and knows the triforce myth. If she finds out Link has just one cog she will lock him up immediately.
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Starforsaken101

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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 02:10:23 pm »
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Hmmmmmm....Niek, that idea is interesting. The four last temples could have the four horsemen. However, if you really want it to be accurate to the upcoming arrival of Ganon, the order would have to be: War, Famine, Pestilence, Death. Just throwing it out there.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 08:22:52 pm »
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But why would Ganon have horsemen that work against Link, when Ganon sent Link? It makes no sense to me to have bad guys that are associated with Ganon - who symbolizes ultimate evil in Zelda, so therefore any bad guy that is just evil- working against Ganon's plans, set in motion through Link. It's counterproductive and indicative of bad planning and or management.

I think one thing that's working against us is the nature of Ganon. He's the most evil bad guy, if somebody is just evil, they kind of have to work for him. I guess I haven't played Skyward Sword, but otherwise, you can't really have a force more evil than Ganon, or being evil without working for/with Ganon, or it completely undermines Ganon's character, power, and purpose in the game.
So I don't think we can have horsemen, because they'd be evil (they have to be, they're death and pestilence and stuff :p  ), but wouldn't be in league with Ganon, therefore undermining him.

Anyway, about Maple and her activities with the gang in between dungeons, you're right. Of course, even if she is limited to just causing problems for the gang, I don't see how this would make it harder to forgive her than if we think she's being evil, then learn that no, it actually wasn't her. I hadn't looked at her character entry in a long time. Maybe we could change her around a bit in order to use her as a red-herring antagonist character, though?

See, the thing is, if Link is trying to get the cogs, and Maple is trying to get the cogs, that makes her an antagonist by default, but with her as the way her current entry stipulates, she'd be at best a little miniboss type thing, not a big antagonist, and she probably wouldn't be involved with the race's problems. So if we wanted somebody to more actively oppose Link, which we do want, then we'd need ANOTHER person who's after the cogs, or at least trying to stop Link, and then they'd have to be trying equally to stop Maple. It gets confusing.

So here's my proposition:
We change Maple's role a little bit. Her backstory is the same, she blew up Syrup's shop, and ran away. Now she's looking for the cogs to prove her worth and help her witch powers and stuff. But instead of being in Hyrule Town and picking on the gangs, Link meets her on the road. She's also in the Deku forest, and her actions are vague enough that Link can assume she's responsible for the Deku uprising and stuff. She might even do some things that Link witnesses that seem to confirm this, for example, she might destroy a gate to get into the Deku palace, but this also lets angry Deku rebels in, who attack the palace, etc.

We might also be able to pull off a referral misdirection: If, instead of a human witch, she was a young Gerudo witch (I think Syrup is a gerudo, right?), then people could say things like, "the Gerudo helped the Zola capture our royalty!" or "that Gerudo is the cause of this plague!", and Link might assume that Maple is the Gerudo, when in fact the speakers don't know of Maple, and are referring to Ganondorf.

Meanwhile, if we still want a conflict with Link's gang in Hyrule Town, I'd suggest a rival gang. I think there was a suggestion of this in the sidequests or enemies forum, an NPC that shot slingshots at Link and his gang and tried to steal rupees from Link. In between dungeons, Link could go back and, using his new items, defeat rival gangs and do a kind of turf-takeover thing. So he could assist and mend relations with his gang by helping them defeat rival gangs who have taken over their turf and are preventing them from stealing enough to eat. The end goal of this would be re-friending Link's old gang and gaining access to the hideout, where Sykes would be... gone!?

I'll actually go write this out better in the sidequest board.


But yeah, in summary, we could split the functionalities between Maple and a rival gang.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2012, 04:51:21 pm »
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Max, I think you are driving Maple's character away from how she is in the Zelda series. You make her look out as total evil, although you want to make a twist of it not being her. Sorry to say this, even though she only appeared in the oracle series she still is an iconic character. And we already told our members that with iconic characters we should not deviate from what Nintendo has put forth. And I think you are now deviating way too much. That is why I think it is better that we make a unique red-hering antagonist, because we can go with it as much as we want.

Another thing about the Gerudo, they should be exiled and only vague descriptions remain. Having the people refer to the antagonist as a Gerudo would be strange. Secondly Ganon is stuck in Castle Town and Hyrule Castle as the Gerudo King, which makes it problematic for Ganon to continue his misdeeds. Third, if Gerudo are causing problems in Hyrule the Royal Family would hear about it. They are stuck up but not stupid. So it would hinder the Gerudo King facade peace talks. And finally confusing Ganon with Maple also brings gender problems. You will not always call Ganon as "Gerudo" or "monster", eventually you need to change it up with "man", "he" and "him". With Maple it would be "girl", "she" or "her".

But why would Ganon have horsemen that work against Link, when Ganon sent Link? It makes no sense to me to have bad guys that are associated with Ganon - who symbolizes ultimate evil in Zelda, so therefore any bad guy that is just evil- working against Ganon's plans, set in motion through Link. It's counterproductive and indicative of bad planning and or management.

I think one thing that's working against us is the nature of Ganon. He's the most evil bad guy, if somebody is just evil, they kind of have to work for him. I guess I haven't played Skyward Sword, but otherwise, you can't really have a force more evil than Ganon, or being evil without working for/with Ganon, or it completely undermines Ganon's character, power, and purpose in the game.
So I don't think we can have horsemen, because they'd be evil (they have to be, they're death and pestilence and stuff :p  ), but wouldn't be in league with Ganon, therefore undermining him
I think you wrongly estimate the role of evil lackeys. In OOT Ganon had Gohma, Volvagia, Twinrova and others, in ALttP there was Aghinim, in TP there was Zant and in SS.... Well in none of these games the Lackeys were evil and they never overshadowed Ganon in power or evil, because it was made clear they worked for Ganon.

I think the four lackeys (horsemen or whatever) would work because Link fights them as bosses of the temples. He defeats them at each temple, thus making them not that powerful but still evil. And Ganon their master (the end of the Hyrule) would be the ultimate evil and a more looming doom. As Ganon pretends to be the Gerudo King he proves to be a schemer instead of brute force. Ganon can have multiple plans working together. He can send Link out to get the cogs. Maybe he succeeds in getting them all or Link (the only one able to weild the Master Sword) would die trying and get cleared out of the way.
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2012, 09:32:40 pm »
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Hmm, I don't think you understand my intention with maple. Firstly I'll just clarify, the thing about referring to a Gerudo causing the problems was just a random idea, it wasn't a big tenant with my proposition for Maple. Also, we should establish how much the other races interact with Hyrule Town. I'd assumed that the Deku, paranoid, would keep away, and the Gorons and Zora are too wrapped up in their problems to converse with Hylians. But anyway, unimportant.

I was thinking that Maple wouldn't be evil, but rather that it would appear to Link that Maple was causing the problems through careless pursuit of the cogs. The player, honestly, would assume that Ganon was actually behind everything. I mean, who is honestly going to assume that if Ganon is in a game, he's a good guy? And he'll be a little suspicious the whole time too.


Anyway, about your horsemen, they're an interesting idea, but I wasn't saying I have a problem with them because they're evil. I was saying if they were evil and didn't work for/with Ganon, then it'd be wierd. But obviously the can't oppose Link and work for/with Ganon. Doesn't anybody else see the problem with Ganon sending some body/creature to oppose Link, when Ganon himself sent Link? It's like a government sending the secret service to do something, then sending the army to stop the secret service. Why would you do that?
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Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2012, 12:29:10 am »
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Quote
Doesn't anybody else see the problem with Ganon sending some body/creature to oppose Link, when Ganon himself sent Link?

Yes, I agree with this.  The four horsemen (The Horsemen are drawing nearer On the leather steeds they ride!!!) is a good idea, but it needs to be tweaked.

Some questions we should be asking regarding these guys:

Where did they come from?
Why are they here?

We COULD go a similar route to what FF7 did with Weapon.  Weapon was 100% unrelated to Sephiroth and Jenova and was created to protect the planet in time of need.  Perhaps these could be similar blindly raging monsters that were created to protect the Sacred Realm from threats, Ganon being one of them.  This would make sense because then Ganon would indeed want them disposed of.  We could take it a step further and have them inhabit the temples in order to destroy the cogs, since they are a link to the Sacred Realm.
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i love big weenies and i cannot lie
Re: Story Pass :: SECOND ACT
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2012, 04:41:09 pm »
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Thanks, Steve :p

One thing, though, I don't think they could be out to destroy the cogs, because the cogs protect the triforce, and keep it locked away. However, maybe I've just been assuming this, but I figure that the reason there are cogs that can unlock the triforce is because the ancient Hylians who locked it away figured they might need to get at it again in a time of crisis. Otherwise, why wouldn't they have just locked it up and thrown away the key?
Another motivation question- if there are 4 horsemen guys, and their drive is to protect the cogs from Ganon (and by extension, from Link), then why do they send plagues on the races that protect the cogs?

Also, maybe we need to go back to why we want an antagonist. Initially, the only opposition we had was that the races had their own problems, which occurred naturally, that is, without outside intervention. They are in the way of Link's progress, but aren't the result of someone opposing Link. I think we thought this wasn't direct enough opposition or something? So we decided we needed a direct antagonist.

However, do we actually need a direct antagonist? What purpose does this really serve? I mean, it makes Link's quest more difficult, but I think challenges not propagated by someone directly to oppose Link can also be employed to make his quest difficult. So question 1, why do we need a direct antagonist?

Secondly, why does this direct antagonist, if we have one, need to be responsible for the problems of the different races? We've been assuming that if we have a direct antagonist, they need to at least contribute to the problems, but maybe they don't. We could have someone want to stop Link from getting the cogs (because they want the cogs themselves, or because they don't want anyone to abuse the cogs, whatever), but this antagonist wouldn't necessarily have to contribute or even care about the races' problems. So question 2, why does an antagonist need to relate to the race's problems? They could just oppose Link directly.



Also, one little unrelated question, we've mentioned that the master sword is in the Celestial Clock. What I've been thinking is that once you use the cogs to get inside the dungeon, it's somewhere in the middle functioning as a second lock. Evil can't touch the master sword, so therefore an evil person wouldn't be able to pull it out to get to the Triforce.
Since Link has gotten the cogs for Ganon but then left him for Zelda and Farin and good, now Ganon's using Sykes to get the triforce, presumably he needs Sykes to be pure hearted enough to pull the master sword.
However, if Sykes pulls out the master sword, then he'll have it, not Link. So are we going to have a fight against Sykes where Sykes has the Master Sword? Because that's pretty cool.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 05:25:46 pm by Donotfeedthemax »
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