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Author Topic: Magic Talismans  (Read 3292 times)

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Magic Talismans
« on: July 25, 2015, 12:55:28 am »
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Legend has it that the ancient Hylian craftsman could endue their work with old magic. One particular man focused his efforts on creating talismans to aid adventurers, which some claim survive to this day, hidden across the kingdom.

Our hero might happen across these rare treasures, usually after solving a few puzzles in an inaccessible cave or as a reward for a trading quest or whatever.

Finding a talisman automatically equips it and boosts your abilities. They're visible on a menu subscreen like the power bracelets or triforce pieces would be, as a passive item.

Aquamarine Talisman:
Allows Link to swim faster.

Orion Talisman:
Allows Link to shoot bombs and arrows with less reload time between shots.

Cyclone Talisman:
The spin attack charges more quickly.

Monkey Talisman:
Allows Link to climb ladders and climbable walls more quickly (about the same speed as walking).

Acrobat's Talisman:
Allows Link to walk across tightropes and narrow ledges more quickly.

Iron Talisman:
Link becomes immune to bomb blasts.

Quartz Talisman:
Wearing the shadow cloak consumes magic more slowly.

Opal Talisman:
Link's Sword beams become more powerful.

Great Fairy's Talisman:
Reduces the amount of damage Link takes from enemies.



So, what do we think? It's always good to have more rewards for exploring, since rupees get old and we can only have so many pieces of heart. If you have any other ideas, let 'em fly. However, I don't think we should have more than around 10, because otherwise they wouldn't feel as rare.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 03:02:15 pm by Donotfeedthemax »
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Miles07

Knight of ERA
Re: Magic Rings
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2015, 01:33:29 pm »
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I would suggest taking hints from the other official entry where Rings are used: the Oracle games. They have a list of 64 rings, with a variety of usability. For instance, some of them are meant for achievements only (Signpost Ring, Friendship Ring, etc.), while others have uses in certain situations that you have to be prepared for (Roc's Ring, Quicksand Ring, etc.). Still others are skin updates (Moblin's Ring, Likelike Ring, etc.) which make them act like the Zora's/Goron's/Gerudo's Masks in Ocarina of Time. Yet other ring alter the stats of the hero (Red Ring, Rang Ring, etc.).

So basically, we can get rid of 'achievement' rings and possibly all but a few 'reskins' rings, and we are left with actual usable stuff.
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Re: Magic Rings
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2015, 05:11:36 am »
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Yup! The idea is totally rooted in the Oracle games, which were the first Zelda games I ever played. I looked through the list of rings from the oracle games when brainstorming, immunity to bomb blasts came right from that.

The vast majority of the Oracle rings I didn't include for two reasons. 1) I wanted to preserve the rarity of the rings here, to make them more exciting to find. 2) The Oracle rings have the very different attribute of being a one-at-a-time activate/deactivate system. So having a bunch of things like red and green rings runs the risk of overpowering Link unless you're limited by one-at-a-time. Similarly, the situational rings (quicksand ring, snowshoe ring, etc), without activating/deactivating them and limiting the number you can wear, that would just bypass some of the game's puzzles probably.

We could use more of the ideas from the Oracle games if we instituted a system where you had to choose which one ring to wear, and you could take it off and choose another one, but I intentionally didn't choose that, because I thought having passive rings would be a lot less work to add into the game. Like the stat-boosting "joy butterflies" or whatever from Minish Cap, they're just a rare secret thing that doesn't add any new mechanics.


However, from the Oracle ring list, I did see the Roc's ring and the snowshoe ring could have a cool place in our game. However, I thought these might work better as thief abilities. Basically, there's no difference, you complete a sidequest and gain a passive ability. But for narrative purposes, those seemed like they'd have a bigger payoff as a "skill" Link "learns" instead of just magic he finds. As far as gameplay, I don't think it'd make a difference though.
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Miles07

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Re: Magic Rings
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2015, 06:17:38 am »
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I like the idea of "rings" or whatever providing permanent changes to the player like the Joy Butterflies, but within the game universe the Joy Butterfly bestowed an upgrade and then disappeared - the icon of the butterfly doesn't exist in the pause menus. Rings, on the other hand (pun not intended), kinda denote the ability to equip/unequip them, like done in Oracles. (The Rings in the original LoZ were only two, and they gave a permanent stat boost, so they don't count in this discussion.) If we were to have the "rings" items grant Link an ability, a capability, or a stat-boost once and then remove the object from play, then it would make sense to use rings.

Otherwise, just imagine meeting a supposed "thief" with, like, 15 rings on his fingers. Wouldn't seem right in-universe, and it'd likely get noticed by players.

No, unless there's a way to make the rings grant Link their power and then removed from the visible universe, then I think that Rings should be equipable.

Or...
The thought just crossed my mind:
Minor cogs.
Instead of just the main 4 cogs from each of the dungeons, could there also be minor cogs that can work for the Thief Bracers to provide either active or passive abilities/stat boosts? Just like machines use multiple gears and wheels within, the Thief Bracers could also allow for multiple cogs to give functionality to its magic powers. Not all of them need magic, mind you.
Perhaps there can also be a way to upgrade the number of minor Cogs the Bracers can handle?

Sorry, just rambling now. Gotta go to sleep.
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Re: Magic Rings
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2015, 05:15:35 pm »
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Lol, I think you're overthinking it, dude. I can totally imagine a thief with a bunch of rings (he'd look like Johnny Depp in Pirates of the Caribbean) for one thing, and also, can you imagine a thief carrying around a sword, shield, boomerang, hookshot, bomb cannon, wearing a cape for jumping and flippers for swimming, etc.? Also, thought, since Link can always immediately jump into water once he gets the flippers, does that mean he's always wearing them? Or maybe he never wears them, just having them in his inventory allows him to swim :p

Anyway, why don't we change these rings to Talismans or something then? That way there's no unintentional connotations of taking them off and putting them on, and we can have the ease of just altering a parameter of Link's programming or whatever, instead of having to program in a new system of a ring menu and a place to equip one at a time, etc.
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Miles07

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Re: Magic Rings
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2015, 06:21:52 pm »
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The Talisman idea sounds good, since they come in different shapes and sizes, therefore being "equippable" anywhere on the body. (One could be a ring, one a necklace, one a clip to attach to a belt, etc.)
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I was talking to my friend last night, and he was mentioning about how in 1980, he thought the internet would become this amazing place where people from across the world would share ideas. I was telling him about how this project [KOT] has worked, lurching along for years and drawn by different people from across the globe, and he thought it was beautiful. And he was right, it's awesome. :D

Zelda Items Spritesheet album - (link here)
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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 03:37:44 pm »
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Cool, well I switched it to Talismans. I do think that'll eliminate the potential joke of imagining Link with rings on like every hand. Anybody have comments on their actual effects? Some seem like good ideas, other ideas that might be better, etc?
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Miles07

Knight of ERA
Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2015, 04:02:52 pm »
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Here's one: some sort of talisman that hides your identity from enemies until you make some sort of non-"boring" move, like rolling or other actions. Basically, you're invisible (or viewed as just some NPC) to the enemy while you simply stand or walk, but once you make any action out of the ordinary, or bump into a the foe, your identity is revealed and the talisman fails to work until you leave the immediate area.
Put another way, it's a talisman that makes enemies view you as an NPC until you do something that NPCs won't usually do.

EDIT: This is, of course, going above and beyond the useful effects of the Magic Rings from the Oracle games.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 04:07:11 pm by Miles07 »
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I was talking to my friend last night, and he was mentioning about how in 1980, he thought the internet would become this amazing place where people from across the world would share ideas. I was telling him about how this project [KOT] has worked, lurching along for years and drawn by different people from across the globe, and he thought it was beautiful. And he was right, it's awesome. :D

Zelda Items Spritesheet album - (link here)
A Link Across Time project - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Metroid) - (link here)
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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2015, 05:10:49 pm »
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Could be cool. If the talismans are passive, permanent upgrades to Link's abilities though, do you think this could be a little bit overpowered, especially for dungeons? Since there's no EXP and mostly no reason to fight enemies in Zelda unless you need to get get a key/make a door open, do you think this would allow the player to breeze through too many areas that are supposed to be hard and it could make the game kind of boring?
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Miles07

Knight of ERA
Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2015, 11:14:59 pm »
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Maybe it only works in the overworld?
My thought was that while Link looks and acts as a non-suspecting character (walking, not dashing or rolling or doing anything acrobatic), he'll blend into the crowd, so to speak. But as soon as he brandishes his sword or uses combat item or a magical tool, his cover is blown.
Recall from A Link to the Past, how some soldiers will just go along their patrols or doing whatever, and then Link does something to nab their attention while not in their direct line of sight. THAT is what I'm driving at.
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I was talking to my friend last night, and he was mentioning about how in 1980, he thought the internet would become this amazing place where people from across the world would share ideas. I was telling him about how this project [KOT] has worked, lurching along for years and drawn by different people from across the globe, and he thought it was beautiful. And he was right, it's awesome. :D

Zelda Items Spritesheet album - (link here)
A Link Across Time project - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Metroid) - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Zelda) - (link here)
Boss Keys project Trello Board - (link here)

Take part in the Zelda Timeline discussion here!

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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2015, 11:24:29 pm »
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Okay, I get it. Yeah, I had a love/hate relationship with the soldiers in Kakariko, they were a sweet mechanic, but sometimes made it annoying to go about your business in town. I guess there wasn't much business IN town, though. But come to think of it, those soldiers are a pretty good model for the ones in our town. When Link gets caught pickpocketing, it's like when those certain girls call for the soldiers, they go into red alert. Otherwise they're just walking around but if you do something suspicious nearby, they come for you.

Since we've got something like that already for the soldiers in town, it might be logical to be able to extend that to the other enemies. Let's gets Steve's opinion on it since it seems like he's the one coding the entire game himself recently :p
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Miles07

Knight of ERA
Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2015, 11:43:59 pm »
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Since we've got something like that already for the soldiers in town...
...we've got something like that already...
...already...

I give up.
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I was talking to my friend last night, and he was mentioning about how in 1980, he thought the internet would become this amazing place where people from across the world would share ideas. I was telling him about how this project [KOT] has worked, lurching along for years and drawn by different people from across the globe, and he thought it was beautiful. And he was right, it's awesome. :D

Zelda Items Spritesheet album - (link here)
A Link Across Time project - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Metroid) - (link here)
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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2015, 01:02:24 am »
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My bad if that came across as a negative, dude? What I mean is it's a viable idea since we've already got the basic mechanic. Like every idea for every other talisman has also already been done. They're taking something we've already got (shooting arrows, climbing, walking across narrow things, charging your spin attack), and extending the idea in a helpful, albeit minor way so it makes you feel like a more powerful/experienced adventurer, without changing gameplay much.

So having enemies in a reduced state of awareness until the player alerts them is, like shooting arrows or climbing, something we already have in the soldiers in town. So that talisman would take a mechanism we already have and use it to make the player feel more experienced or powerful. Like every other talisman. :p 

The difference here is that instead of altering a parameter of the player(swimming speed, magic consumption from shadow medallion, power of sword beams, etc.), it's altering the behavior of all the enemies. I imagine that's a little bit different from a coding perspective which I know nothing about, so I'm trying to invoke the wisdom of Steve here.

Sorry for arguing yours and everyone else's ideas. I feel like that's how design should be, everything gets tried by fire. I'm constantly afraid I've got shitty ideas and nobody will say anything to kill them.


Oh, sidenote I just thought of, what's your feeling on a mechanic that causes enemies to ignore you as a thief skill vs. a talisman? Like, if Link visited someone who trained him to move more silently, and then enemies ignored him until he triggered something to get their attention? Like, gameplay wise, no difference, it'd just be a narrative thing.
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Starforsaken101

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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2015, 01:14:52 am »
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Since we've got something like that already for the soldiers in town...
...we've got something like that already...
...already...

I give up.

Don't give up so easily! Welcome to game development. Max, don't apologize for arguing your ideas; that's what design is. Everyone thinks their ideas are the right ones. As long as there's agreement and consensus, then we have a great game. Try and come to some sort of agreement.

Remember, this is about fun and crafting a great game. Not everyone needs to be right.
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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2015, 01:36:34 am »
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Quote
Let's gets Steve's opinion on it since it seems like he's the one coding the entire game himself recently :p

Oh man I definitely need to take some time to read over this lol.  Let me get back to you tomorrow on it.
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Miles07

Knight of ERA
Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2015, 01:45:24 am »
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I said "I give up" because I didn't know it was already a part of the game.

But maybe the talisman could further reduce the awareness factor of enemies?
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I was talking to my friend last night, and he was mentioning about how in 1980, he thought the internet would become this amazing place where people from across the world would share ideas. I was telling him about how this project [KOT] has worked, lurching along for years and drawn by different people from across the globe, and he thought it was beautiful. And he was right, it's awesome. :D

Zelda Items Spritesheet album - (link here)
A Link Across Time project - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Metroid) - (link here)
Boss Keys project (Zelda) - (link here)
Boss Keys project Trello Board - (link here)

Take part in the Zelda Timeline discussion here!

Click here for a possible project on the ZFGC Wiki. Please support!
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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 06:51:59 pm »
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I also want to bring to attention that we have specialized potions which may have a similar function:

http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=39615.0
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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2015, 10:52:41 pm »
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I also want to bring to attention that we have specialized potions which may have a similar function:

http://zfgc.com/forum/index.php?topic=39615.0

Lol, I FINALLY looked those potions over. There is, surprisingly, no overlap at all.

It'd be awesome, Steve, if you looked over the various abilities we've suggested so far and could say if any of them seem unreasonable or inconvenient or whatever from a programming point of view, or if any are like "yeah, that'd be super easy".
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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2015, 06:08:13 pm »
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So, since we've been designing maps and all, it'll be nice to figure out if we can use these magic talismans as hidden items and work them into maps (at the end of little mini-dungeons), or through side quests.

So yeah, I feel like it's kinda been long enough for these to stew here and we should either accept them and start working them into the designs, or reject them and come with other bonus content to reward exploring and side quests. Steve, is there any programming preference/point of view about these?
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Re: Magic Talismans
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2015, 06:52:05 pm »
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I never actually got a chance to dig into them too much.  I'll put this on the priority list.
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