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Author Topic: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?  (Read 7556 times)

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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #40 on: August 10, 2006, 09:28:46 pm »
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How did things evolve mouths if they did not need to eat anyway?  Certainly, things that do not need food have no mouths and creatures with exposed openings are not going to have those openings for protection against nature.  Evolution occurs mostly out of immediate need/population destruction and not desired intention.  The creatures you are trying to describe are evolved to work without seeking out energy.  The only way to achieve outside energy would be to: devolve to a lesser state or evolve from a lesser state.  Simple things do not have advanced systems, so they can change quicker.

In other words, the only way to change is to devolve and if the creatures did not have their own energy/it was running out.  Each progressive generation would get weaker and weaker.  Eventually, they would either all die out or one of the weak ones may mutate under adverse effects.  Other than that, I do not see your situation as possible.
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Fox

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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2006, 09:30:56 pm »
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Quote from: 2awesome4apossum on August 10, 2006, 09:23:47 pm
What kind of random mutation could possibly make an organism need to eat?  I suppose if you believe in the theory of Evolution: that plants and animals evolved from the same thing, then I guess that would have to be the solution.
Well, yeah, I believe in the Evolution, I'm not religious... And well, the starting dependence on eating and breathing and so on (let's not forget my other wacky ideas) made the body mutate and start needing it. Just like... drugs do in a way. It's not exactly random.

Do you believe in Evolution or Religion, possy? (That's not flaming, I seriously don't know and want to know before I continue debating... :) )

Quote from: 4Sword on August 10, 2006, 09:28:46 pm
How did things evolve mouths if they did not need to eat anyway?  Certainly, things that do not need food have no mouths and creatures with exposed openings are not going to have those openings for protection against nature.  Evolution occurs mostly out of immediate need/population destruction and not desired intention.  The creatures you are trying to describe are evolved to work without seeking out energy.  The only way to achieve outside energy would be to: devolve to a lesser state or evolve from a lesser state.  Simple things do not have advanced systems, so they can change quicker.

In other words, the only way to change is to devolve and if the creatures did not have their own energy/it was running out.  Each progressive generation would get weaker and weaker.  Eventually, they would either all die out or one of the weak ones may mutate under adverse effects.  Other than that, I do not see your situation as possible.
Why do we have a caecum if we don't actually need it? And besides, we also use our mouth to speak (even though I'm pretty sure that was not the main-reason for its existance xD )...

And again. I'm not talking about now, I'm talking about the START of existance.
The fact that the generation didn't go weaker is (after my crazy idea) because they got used to eating and since they kept doing it, there were no problems.

I hope I didn't miss any of your points, I'm sorta tired right now... X_x sorry.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2006, 09:34:27 pm by Fox »
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #42 on: August 10, 2006, 11:27:10 pm »
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How could one get used to eating if it has no mouth or digestive system?  The only way it would work is if the creature you are describing is a small micro-organism that is not complex.  It is a much more versatile creature that could figure out what to do if something entered its cytoplasm.  And, since other creatures in its diet probably also were made of cytoplasm, this system of colliding with something that makes you stronger and have more energy began to influence the cells.

Things do not just learn to eat.  The creatures you are describing did not need to eat, and they had no reason to.  I find it hard to believe something that has no knowledge of food or the inner workings to process it seeks and can be addicted to food.  What did they do, cut a hole in themselves and shove dead animals in?  Did they wait for the food to rot as their body attacked the food that was foreign to it?  Better yet, how would one go about getting stomach acid to dissolve this food?  I do not think they would poor acid into their gaping wounds. 

The creature just could not adapt without changing, and they could only change by devolving and having their following generations to break into crisis survival.  Big creatures exert a lot of energy through movement and activity, so I just do not believe that a creature could live on a "battery".  Today's current methods of storing energy show that even artificial storage that does not hinder or have biological factors cannot work for years.  Why should I think that some creatures could live on energy they could not store and then later figure out how to eat?

Also, human babies are born with id.  The term "id" is part of a psychological theory.  Babies have distinct needs that must be met to ensure survival.  This is why they hunger and cry about it.  As the baby grows into an adult, the id can be suppressed, but it can not be ignored.  And chances are, if you do not need to eat as a baby, and have no will to, then you will not in your adult life.

As for the caecum, I think you are referring to the appendix in general.  This could just be left over from human development or it could be from a mutation in early ancestry that all people have.  Herbivores do have one too though because they store bacteria to aid in digestion.  It could be that humans just stopped needing the bacteria there as well.
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2006, 12:04:02 am »
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Idiot? We are debating here Scooternew.
I was being a little bit sarcastic - but you just can't live without food or water. It's been scientifically proved. Malnutrition has killed plenty of people. I mean you could use an IV and then shove food in pulp form throuhgout the body - but without "food", you can't live. And without water, you can't live. And certainly without water, you can't live. I'm usually an open minded guy, but I don't see how you could debate against this. If you mean "eat" as in "ingest food through the mouth", then there are possibly other ways to get nutrition - but otherwise, it just doesn't seem possible for humans.

What we may have been like 2000 years ago or 2000 years from now isn't what we are as of now; as of now, we need water and oxygen. I'm not debating that possibly it used to be or very well may be in the future differnet.
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2006, 12:12:24 am »
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4Sword: I may just be mis-understanding your explenation about how evolution works, but I'm pretty sure it happens all the time.While I think (stressing think here) it's only evolution when the mutation has developed a complete brand-new thing, mutations in general happen all the time. This is how our bodies, eye color, hair color, and other unique features get... well... unique! But, my point is, evolution/mutation doesn't just happen during times of crisis, it can happen anytime it feel like it.

I think I read in the newspaper that scientists now think early mammals (fish with legs  ::) ) didn't evolve legs because the sea they were in was evaporating, they evolved legs in normal conditions and for whatever reason thought "Hey, let's use these to run along the bottom! Hey! Run! New word! Yayyy!".

But now I've probably just made a complete fool of myself and have gone border-line off topic.  >.>
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2006, 12:27:45 am »
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No, Fox was saying that organisms who had no need forenergy due to that they did not eat suddenly became "addicted" to food.  The evolution of a creature that does not need energy only will happen when the creature is getting weaker.  Evolution cannot happen overnight.  The species have to experience change due to a need and not a want.  If all of the creatures he was describing all tried to eat food desperately, their body would treat the food as a foreign body.  The ones in the population who do not have the ability to fight it could incorporate in somehow, but that would be to rare, and there is an even lesser possibility of them passing their abilites onto their young.  However, this would not likely happen because it is just too inefficient.

Differences in features are not mutations, but they are some form of lottery selection.  It deals with certain traits being passed on and others not.  In the case of the non-eaters to eaters, to work it would need a crisis. 
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2006, 12:43:19 am »
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Do you believe in Evolution or Religion, possy?
You present it as a choice BETWEEN the two which should not be the case.  One can believe in religion and evolution (I don't, but one can).

I believe in religion.  At the same time: I'm not a fundamentalist that believes the earth is flat.  Science compliments religion (a philosiphy embraced by all the good scientists: Einstein, Sir Isaac Newton, all the famous ones except Darwin who broke the rule of a scientific theory by NOT making it disprovable).  The earth being billions of years old?  Awesome!  Gives us a fun fact, and if we're really feeling like having some fun, we can estimate how long the "week" was in earth time.

So I don't categorize science and religion in two completely seperate categories.  No mistake: they're not the same, but they're certainly not exclusive of one another.

And I'm not bold enough to say that one could replace the other... it's not true.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2006, 12:09:08 am by 2awesome4apossum »
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2006, 09:48:07 am »
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Comas, anybody? In a coma state, we are given food and water through a tube, right (dunno if that's right)... we die if it is taken away. What if we are in a coma state away from hospital, with no care? We wouldn't quite be thinking right, most definitely not craving anything! Would we die without food\drink?
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2006, 05:05:52 pm »
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Yes. Yes we would. Even with a slowed metabolism, we'd still starve to death eventually.
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2006, 12:08:11 am »
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Yes, Cronian is correct: that can be explained by metabolism.
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2006, 03:08:00 pm »
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It's silly to think that it might be in our imagination, because the mind only goes to a certain extent wherafter instinct and the will to live takes over. It's like it's practically impossible to suffocate yourself by simply holding your breath. Your body wants to survive, that's the nature of evolution, and instincts help you achieve this. Anything that's in your mind can be over-ridden by your body FACT. Anything that's in your body can be ignored by your mind. But it won't go away.
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2006, 01:41:18 pm »
This topic really has drifted, or you could say evolved, but I will respond to the original post. I don't believe that any advanced organism can survive without eating, sleeping, and breathing. Eating is the preferred way acquiring energy. Photosynthesis alone probably wouldn't provide sufficient energy for larger and mobile creatures, plants also need water and nutrients absorbed from the soil. Perhaps it is plausible that an advanced organism could have the ability to germinate leaves from their skin and get some energy that way, but it would still either have to eat or be rooted. I believe that sleep recharges the brain in some way, and that it is indispensable to any advanced creature. Sleep deprivation can kill you indirectly, many conditions follow sleep deprivation, some fatal. However, I think that jellyfish may not sleep, seeing as how the don't have a brain, blood, or anything but a nervous system. Although they seem simple, their stinging cells are very complex, which strikes me as peculiar. Creatures need to breathe and drink water for cellular respiration to occur. Cellular respiration is the process of releasing energy stored in protein, fats, and carbohydrates, the byproduct of which is the carbon dioxide that we exhale. As a closing comment, perpetual motion can only exist in a vacuum where there is no friction.
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2006, 02:14:10 pm »
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First sleep isn't nessary but is the most efficient way to rest so are bodys automaticaly do it but sleep isn't used by the most basic life forms in fact not even sharks so sleep has evolved though everything needs rest in some form.
Instict isn't based on want but need and babies are born with the need to eat and drink though back far enough eating and drinking were nonexsitent at least not in the same form as now.
Though not specificly eating and sleeping we need energy so does all intelegence such as this computer even though it is artificail inteligence. But you maybe in the future we will find away to use electricty as energy for we can already use it to restart hearts, and we know all messages from the brain take the form of electricity.
What a wierd topic for zfgc even if it is off-topic.
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Re: Eating, sleeping... all in our imagination?
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2006, 02:21:56 pm »
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Quote from: Cronian on August 12, 2006, 05:05:52 pm
Yes. Yes we would. Even with a slowed metabolism, we'd still starve to death eventually.

Exactly my point. Now, I don't know for sure the answer, but if we are taking drugs, and are in a coma state, does this affect the brain or body in any way?
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